Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Robz888]

Vote count please

I yelled at mcmc to do one. He's sitting on the couch over there.

[yuma]

Until we get an official one

Vote count yuma.3
2.7... (2): mail-mi, chairs
ashersky (3): Robz, Voltaire, liopoil
chairs (1): 2.7...
Ichimaru Gin (3): Lekkit, Teproc, yuma
voltaire (1): ashersky
teproc (1):/b] Ichimaru Gin

[Voltaire]

I'm back! Replying as I catch up.

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

This is scum!ash. Throwing crap at literally every player, trying to find something that sticks.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 2.4

2.7... (2): mail-mi, chairs
ashersky (3): Robz, Voltaire, Liopoil
chairs (1): 2.7...
Ichimaru Gin (3): Lekkit, Teproc, Yuma
Voltaire (1): ashersky
Teproc (1): Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (0):

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm. To account for holidays

[Robz888]

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

I find both of these suspicious. Both are disclaimed at the end saying that it might be town!ash or town!lio. ash first:

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

I really find it weird that robz isn't totally sold on the reason for suspecting me like he was before. Reads to me like it was an attempt to get me mislynched yesterday, but today there's more viable mislynches like ashersky. I remember he sort of did that in the B2B game that got reset, so when robz was scum and I was still town.

So I'm thinking that most likely one of robz and ashersky is scum, but ashersky is still more likely.

I was being honest--I don't think the cases against ash or you are rock solid. I don't oversell my cases when I don't think their great. You're right that I usually think ash's crazy antics make him town, but I think I just don't read ash as well as I used to think I did. I mean, if you're going off of what Robz's scum strategy toward ash is, you should be well aware that my usual style is to get ash on my side by proclaiming how townie he is. I did this in Tory Story Mafia when you and I were a team--remember how furious I was when the other team shot ash?

One of you or I is misremembering how scummy I thought you were yesterday, and I think it's you. I was all about Eevee and faust for the second half of Day 1. You were a top scumread when the other cases were weak, but then you fell behind other people who had considerably better evidence against them, like faust. Why is this scummy?

[Voltaire]

Mail-mi: Someone wants to lynch mail-mi, I think? Voltaire, yes? Maybe yuma? Do you still? Why?

Yeah, but ash is a better option today & I'm more certain of my read on ash.

[Voltaire]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

You must have missed my point that I don't believe that Teproc has contributed much (that he hasn't really been that involved). He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

I'm still not sold on a chairs or Ashersky lynch as of now, (in particular I believe that chairs has been legitimately busy).

I am currently suspicious of those involved in the Ash lynch--which IMO ramped up way to quickly. I have a town read on Liopoil for the above quote.

Also, another non-sarcastic question, how is OMGUS scummy? Is it just because it's read as a poor reason to vote for someone, saving scum from actually having to make a case, or possibly have accountability for their vote?

OMGUS is not scummy. We call it that, but in my opinion town OMGUSs more than scum.

[2.71828.....]

Teproc: He actually reads pretty scummy to me. Reasons at the end of this post.


I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

Explain to me how this is a good case to bring against someone?  He has been active, hasn't drawn any suspicion, therefore Teproc is scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

You must have missed my point that I don't believe that Teproc has contributed much (that he hasn't really been that involved). He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

Ok... but you need to prove this if it is actually true. Right now you are just saying it without backing it up. You say he is doing things that look to be towny. Why aren't they just towny things? What makes them change from "towny" to "the appearance of towny?"

Sure, no one is above suspicion and maybe Teproc deserves some scrutiny but you are just saying things w/o going back to check as far as I can tell. Doing so--and then voting!--without going back to check and make sure your remembering is correct in conjunction with the OMGUS mention does make it look like it is more of a cover for a OMGUS vote and hence why I think it is scummy of you.

I did actually go back and read through until page 25-30. I probably should have quoted what I believe to be the most relevant posts, but I'm having a little trouble using the search function.
How do you specifically search for posts a single player has made? Because when I search Teproc in this this thread, it only brings up the posts where other players mentioned his name--not posts he made himself.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, another non-sarcastic question, how is OMGUS scummy? Is it just because it's read as a poor reason to vote for someone, saving scum from actually having to make a case, or possibly have accountability for their vote?

OMGUS is--or can be--scummy because it is twofold. One it discredits the case that is on you (the case on me is bad because he is scum!) and second moves the focus away from you toward him (don't look at me, look at him!)

It isn't always scummy, but it certainly can be used. I think everyone that has played as scum has used it before, especially as sometimes it obtains the reputation of being so scummy, scum would never do it, but scum does.

OMGUS is not scummy. We call it that, but in my opinion town OMGUSs more than scum.

Ok.

[2.71828.....]

How do you specifically search for posts a single player has made? Because when I search Teproc in this this thread, it only brings up the posts where other players mentioned his name--not posts he made himself.

I view all the pages, then ctrl+f and search "goko username: teproc" or some variation of that.  Other people might do it differently but that is what I do.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Teproc: He actually reads pretty scummy to me. Reasons at the end of this post.


I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

Explain to me how this is a good case to bring against someone?  He has been active, hasn't drawn any suspicion, therefore Teproc is scum.

He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

Ok. It makes sense that if someone is town, they know that suspicion against them is a waste of time for town and potentially dangerous, but there main goal is scumhunting. However, scum has the most motivation to avoid suspicion--really that is scum's motivation. I simply see Teproc doing a great job of avoiding suspicion, while contributing in the sense that he is posting--but not really doing much else.

PPE: Thanks e, I should be back soon with the relevant posts.

[Teproc]

Ok, yuma :

- I guess the liopoil thing could be qualified as "interesting", but I don't see exactly what it gives us regarding liopoil's alignement, or anyone's for that matter. This is why I didn't adress it. Part of what made the liopoil wagon go away, even before faust claimed, was his surge of activity right ? I could be wrong here, but his response to the wagon read somewhat town as I recall (to me at least).

- I will reread Ichimaru to justify my vote on him more, but he's been scummy all around on both days (OMGUS, voting with sometimes little reason on ongoing wagons), and I don't really buy the argument that a partner would have been able (or indeed want to) prevent this "obvscum" behaviour.

To Ichimaru : yes this is all WIFOM, but everything is basically. Scumslips are the only ones, and those have proven to be a very ineffective way to catch scum (they're generally made by town). I think "WIFOM" is a concept that scum loves to use because it makes everyone unsure and indecisive.

I probably have other stuff to say but I have to check on Chocolate Factory nad I don't have a lot of time*

* This isn't really worth posting in the V/LA thread but I'm currently in the Alps, skiing. I'm still able to check in here on the afternoons and evenings, but I won't be as active as I was, say, day 1 here.

[yuma]

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

I find both of these suspicious. Both are disclaimed at the end saying that it might be town!ash or town!lio. ash first:

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

I really find it weird that robz isn't totally sold on the reason for suspecting me like he was before. Reads to me like it was an attempt to get me mislynched yesterday, but today there's more viable mislynches like ashersky. I remember he sort of did that in the B2B game that got reset, so when robz was scum and I was still town.

So I'm thinking that most likely one of robz and ashersky is scum, but ashersky is still more likely.

Ummmm. this is the post I find suspicious liopoil.

"robz's post is scummy, but I agree with him and will vote ash and if it turns out we are wrong and ash flips town, don't blame and lynch me for it, lynch robz instead"

[2.71828.....]

So right now people are kind of falling into two categories for me (note, this is the way it was at the beginning of my post, say 45 minutes ago.  My reads changed as I reread as you will see):

wouldn't mind lynching: Ashersky, Chairs, Ichimaru, mail-mi, liopoil
Don't really want to lynch: Teproc, Lekkit, Robz, Voltaire, yuma

I will focus on the 5 "wouldn't mind lynching" people

Ashersky- His play has been, uh, interesting.  I really don't know what to make of it.  I could see it coming from scum!ash or town!ash.  willing to vote

Chairs- Has had trouble finding time to get online recently, which is fine.  Even though I am voting him right now, I do not really see this lynch happening and will probably switch my vote before I leave to go party in the new year.

Ichimaru- The new guy.  I was there in the not-so-distant past.  What I see from him is a lot opportunistic voting, preemptive self defense (the OMGUS thing and all), and a lot of good interaction.  I like his contribution level, and I think I see him getting more and more comfortable as the game progresses.  I want to hear a better case against Teproc though.  His posts have had a scummy ring to them, but I do not think I am ready to vote for him yet.

mail-mi- is voting me because of the stance I took on chairs for a bit yesterday and because of my first (second actually, but first with content) post of today.  I really don't have much against him, and I think his case against me is a towny one.  I would need a refresher on why mail-mi is scum before I voted him.  In fact, I really don't think he should be on my "wouldn't mind lynching" list

liopoil- I like his response to the case brought against him by yuma.  Looking back I don't really feel like lynching him all too much, but if we need a lynch I might be persuaded to vote him on the 2nd.  I also think he has an interesting point about Robz.

In fact, Robz? Here is some stuff on him- Opens up the liopoil case that "scum!lio struggles early but plays better late."  Gets a bunch of sheep.  He originally gives slight credence to my Faust case, but then is turned off the case by Ashersky.  He throws out his vote for sale here saying he is concerned about a bad D1.  Jumps to Lekkit for a lurker lynch temporarily before realizing Lekkit wasn't really lurking just posting less frequently but still with content, then moves to Eevee as his lurker lynch after I point out that Eevee is more of a lurker.  Throws his vote out for sale again.  Has the whole episode of "wait no one post info about the setup because it might help scum!faust with a fakeclaim." (starting here)  He then jumps onto the little wagon against me for a bit here before Faust reveals that he was lying about his fakeclaim.  Robz then ends the day with his vote on me, after unvoting Faust to avoid ending the day before some people could comment.  I recognize his "D1s are famously lacksadaisical" (to quote Ash from BM14 since he put it so nicely in the role PM) but putting his vote up for sale? twice?  His D2 has not been great but no one has really stood out too much as being amazing, and I think he can probably (safely) trust that his meta will carry him through and avoid a lynch.

So this has been long and winding and a bunch of people posted while I was typing this, but I think it lands me at vote: Robz.  I am not comfortable with the way he went through D1, and he has not done anything today to shake that feeling.

Current reads:
Would lynch: Robz, Ichimaru, Ashersky
Would lynch on the 2nd before deadline: Chairs, liopoil
Would take some persuading, but might vote for them: mail-mi, Teproc, Lekkit
Not interested in lynching today: Yuma, Voltaire

[Robz888]

In fact, Robz? Here is some stuff on him- Opens up the liopoil case that "scum!lio struggles early but plays better late."  Gets a bunch of sheep.  He originally gives slight credence to my Faust case, but then is turned off the case by Ashersky.  He throws out his vote for sale here saying he is concerned about a bad D1.  Jumps to Lekkit for a lurker lynch temporarily before realizing Lekkit wasn't really lurking just posting less frequently but still with content, then moves to Eevee as his lurker lynch after I point out that Eevee is more of a lurker.  Throws his vote out for sale again.  Has the whole episode of "wait no one post info about the setup because it might help scum!faust with a fakeclaim." (starting here)  He then jumps onto the little wagon against me for a bit here before Faust reveals that he was lying about his fakeclaim.  Robz then ends the day with his vote on me, after unvoting Faust to avoid ending the day before some people could comment.  I recognize his "D1s are famously lacksadaisical" (to quote Ash from BM14 since he put it so nicely in the role PM) but putting his vote up for sale? twice?  His D2 has not been great but no one has really stood out too much as being amazing, and I think he can probably (safely) trust that his meta will carry him through and avoid a lynch.

These are things I did, not things I did that were scummy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hmmm. This is not great for me, because I don't think faust is scum and I really don't think ash is scum.

I looked at the setup recently, and if I remember correctly, Vengeful has  50% chance to happen if one K is rolled, and there will always be at least one Vengeful if more than one K is rolled.

Vengeful is probably the go to scum fakeclaim but... I mean, it's a pretty likely role to exist, and I do think his timing makes sense here. I wouldn't have claimed at that point myself, but it makes sense to help narrow the lynch down.

Basically, I think his claim doesn't change anything to his likelihood of being town/scum. But I don't want to lynch him because I believe ash to be town, and I'm not confident either way as to faust's alignment.

What makes me scummy ?

You're against claiming, but I felt your reasoning was kind of forced given we have THE POWER OF THE INTERNET.

That's some interesting logic. I mean, what is town supposed to do in this situation, just say nothing ? I guess it would be more accurate to say that you find e townier than me in that argument, more than me being scummier ? Since what you're saying is that scum wouldn't hold a "nonsensical" position, not really that town wouldn't try to "make sense".

Basically I see what you're saying, but it seems to me that your logic should be giving you a town read on e rather than a scum read on me.

And I still disagree with it. People make mistakes/are wrong all the time, scum or town. And e was actually right about names not giving away PRs.

This post is confusing (only to me?)

My problem is not your case per se. It's day 1, everyone's case is going to be weak. My problem is that you're trying to paint it as more than it is in order to look like a good active townie scumhunter.

Asking everyone to give their opinion about faust is leading town, which is scummy. Of course you could be town and just trying to get the game active. Sure. I just don't think you are.

More WIFOM

To Ichimaru : yes this is all WIFOM, but everything is basically. Scumslips are the only ones, and those have proven to be a very ineffective way to catch scum (they're generally made by town). I think "WIFOM" is a concept that scum loves to use because it makes everyone unsure and indecisive.

Everything is WIFOM? Really? I mean that's not really a statement I can verify or refute, given my inexperience, but this strikes me as odd.
It seems like more conclusive cases can be built, and are in fact raised against people--based upon more than twisting semi-neutral facts to support a preconceived position (something I have been guilty of myself). The difference is, I believe I acknowledged it as poor strategy.

Also, I can't find the post, but somewhere Teproc said something about him being less fearless than Ash. It was after Faust claimed and threatened Ash, and Teproc said something about how he would have handled things differently if he had been threatened.

So in short I think Teproc is scummy because

1. He flipped back and forth about Ash D1, a lot. And generally had a lot of light reads on people which he shifted around, often contradicting each other. I know that there's not a lot of information D1, but such unaccountable behavior reads scum to me. And as I have already mentioned, he avoided suspicion for this.

 2. I read boldness and certainty (even over-certainty) as town. Teproc's general lack of conviction on most of his votes reads scum to me. Although Ash is getting flak for his early "100%" read on Faust, I think extreme statements elicit extreme responses--thereby making it harder for scum to hide in ambiguity--something I believe Teproc to be doing.

3. Everything is WIFOM? Well it's pretty obvious that a lot of his cases do follow this. e.g. this behavior could be interpreted as town or scum trying to get town cred, but for really no reason at all, I believe the latter.
Still, I think this statement is just an excuse/cover-up for poor scumhunting on Teproc's part. WIFOM is basically an argument out of thin air--given the semblance of conviction through bias.

[ashersky]

I'm back! Replying as I catch up.

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

This is scum!ash. Throwing crap at literally every player, trying to find something that sticks.

Way to respond to the very detail case against you.  Meanwhile, you just keep saying "this is scum!ash" over and over like that makes it true.  You have zilch as far as a case against me.

Listen, and this is for everyone: I am never "caught" as scum for being scummy or saying scummy things.  I say anything and everything as both alignments.  You all just gave an extreme bias against me.  Look at my scum history.  Scum 4 times in 3 games, most recent first:

--lynched after caught by cop
--lynched after subbing in for VLA final scum
--lynched after white flag after caught by claiming
--game prematurely ended after I would have been caught by botched vote count

Not so recently?  Fake claimed famously in Mean Girls, survived to the end in Noir.  My first two scum games, as a newb, were the only times I was lynched as scum for being scummy, and both were before my meta was established.

So, make a case with evidence, Voltaire.  If you really want to just keep banging a drum and hoping people dance to it, you will get caught, eventually.

[Voltaire]

I'm back! Replying as I catch up.

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

This is scum!ash. Throwing crap at literally every player, trying to find something that sticks.

Way to respond to the very detail case against you.  Meanwhile, you just keep saying "this is scum!ash" over and over like that makes it true.  You have zilch as far as a case against me.

Dude, you just quoted an example of me stating you are scum and providing a reason with an example. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not simply stating things are true! That's you and Mr. Faust.

[Voltaire]

Case on Voltaire:

As far as this is concerned, I'll echo lio's "this is a list of things Volt has done, not reasons why he is scum."

As far as specific things are concerned, do you not see why I, as town, wanted to avoid saying why I thought chairs was town? Yeah, I botched it overall, but I maintain I had the right approach and failed in the execution. I "started throwing my vote around" because we needed a non-faust lynch. I stand proud that this is how correct town should behave (and it's not like I was certain or anything, I was partially lucky to be right about faust).

[Teproc]

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

[yuma]

ash and voltaire, are you both dead-set on voting for each other or are you considering other options?

[Voltaire]

ash and voltaire, are you both dead-set on voting for each other or are you considering other options?

I will definitely vote for other people if the ash wagon does not seem to be going anywhere. At this point, though, I believe I am doing the most good for town with my vote on ash.

[Voltaire]

I mean, he's currently tied for the most votes, and I hate the Ichi wagon.

[2.71828.....]

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

Basically scum!robz knows that Faust is town.  So scum!robz has no reason to disbelieve the claim at all.  However, it is within the realm of possibility that Faust would either misremember is PM or put out some sort of false information in his response which "catches" town!faust.  All the while Robz gets town points with a slim chance that Faust will misstep and give an easy lynch.  As it is, the whole claim was a misstep by Faust, but that is a different matter.  So I wouldn't say it is a "towny" thing to do, but it does not mean it is scummy either.  My scum read on Robz is not one big moment where I went "Aha! Robz is scum" but more of a gradual uneasiness as I reread all his posts.