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[yuma]

[quote author=Ichimaru Gin link=topic=9840.msg330244#msg330244
I think it's a good idea to try to get a lynch before New Year's Eve. I'll be back tomorrow--after going over a lot of old posts  to refresh my memory on reads and such.
[/quote]

I don't necessarily think we need to get a lynch before New Years as that is a very small space of time and we have some time left after as the deadline is.... the 2nd? so actually not much. I thought for some reason the deadline was later than that (even with the added extension) like the 5th or something...? so yeah, maybe at least a strong push toward getting a lynch before new years would be in town's best interest after all.

Again I repeat the request for everyone voting to explain their reasons for voting ASAP. I know I am not the IC, but we need this to get going again, so do this before you do anything else in regard to this game!

[mail-mi]

Ok.  I am going to do something crazy. 

vote: chairs

Yes, I get that he could be a PR.  I get that.  I saw it as soon as Voltaire mentioned the secret case before he had to explain it to the whole world

But

he could also be scum. (or the SK)

JK9++ could have up to 7(!) town PRs.  that is a lot.  Chairs could also be our only PR.  Or he could be one of many.  We could have a SK.  We might not.  Which is why JK9++ is impossible to "solve" D1.  Which will make it super fun later on, but right now is kind of annoying since we don't know anything.

However, I am looking at viable lynches and who we will actually learn something about going into D2.  We will learn stuff about chairs.  I also think we have the votes to pull it off.

I believe mail-mi, Ashersky, Lekkit, Eevee, myself will all vote chairs.  The interesting thing is that this basically is almost all of everyone's scum reads (except liopoil).  So this is also intriguing if he does flip scum.  Now, if he flips town PR we will all feel bad and have nice little accusations thrown at us.

But the point is, we can learn more from a chairs lynch than any other lynch right now.

This post gives me all the wrong feelings. Not the vote, cause I think the vote is fine. The entire post. Like, "Yeah he could be a PR but guess what--we have could have 7!" just rubs me all the wrong ways. vote: e to have it somewhere before faust comes.

Oh wait, deadline is 2:20, which is 12:20, which means I won't be on until then. Well, vote: liopoil because he's more viable.

@yuma, it's this. I know I also voted for chairs, but the reasoning is all wrong to me.

...and his first post of the day.

[2.71828.....]

I've also been reading, but I don't really have anything to say.

That is very helpful thing to do as a town member scum.  Not discuss things.

[2.71828.....]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

this. 
chairs does have something to talk about

[2.71828.....]

Seeing scumteams already Robz ? That would be a lot of partners for ash. I still don't underqtand how this behavior would be particularly scummy.

Everyone buys the partner excuse for Ichimaru (the idea that his parrner would have warned him not to be so scumny) ? I could see a partner encouraging him to continue to act this way, fully expecting us to raise this very argument.

In fact, no one seems to care about the chairs situation, so vote: Ichimaru

I agree with Robz that this statement seems scummy to me.  "let's give up on chairs to move to a more popular lynch target" says "all I want to do is lynch people because I am scum."

[yuma]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

this. 
chairs does have something to talk about

chairs only has one vote. I don't think he should claim unless we start thinking we should in fact lynch him and people start to vote him, but right now I don't know if anyone is going to vote unless they know why they should vote... so like I asked, could you (since you are the lone vote on chairs) reassemble why we should consider lynching him, or at least link to places where this has been talked about previously so people can refresh on this?

[ashersky]

Case on Voltaire:

2nd post of the game: Asks for a massclaim.
A few posts later: called out on it, backtracks.  "Oh, I meant flavor claim...whoopsie sorry bumpkins!"

Continues to play the "but I don't think scum have fake claims" card, which is what I expect scum!Voltaire to play.
Also admits that mass claim outs the PRs, but argues that it's okay to do that anyway.

He says "scum may not know things until N1."  Why in the world would that be the case in JK9++?  Unless there's a flavor thing, and he only knows to say this if he's scum and knows it is true.

Later on D1, when 2.7 flavor claims, Voltaire's all like "HOLD UP HOSS!!!" and acts like 2.7 did some crazy bad stuff, but he himself had been advocating a mass claim and then flavor claim earlier in the day.  Inconsistent much?  First he tries to out PRs, then he tries to gain towncred by complaining about a claim, which he wanted in the first place.

Later on, he says the exact words "we're not playing a variant."  So he admits to knowing we are NOT playing a variant, and yet earlier, he says "scum may not know things until N1" which would of course suggest a variant.  More inconsistency.

He claims chairs is "99% town" and yet lambasts me non-stop for days about me saying faust is "100% scum."  Huh.  Nice to meet you Pot.

He used a scumslip/townslip argument on D1, even though he claims to not believe in slips.

"Secret case" on chairs.  Secret cases are scummy.  See Robz in Modern Community.

Voltaire had a forgotten wagon on him D1, yet it doesn't get brought up at all.  mail-mi, Ichimaru, and Lekkit were on it.

Late on D1, he proclaims a town read on Lekkit, although he had voted him twice (once RVS) and Lekkit was voting for him at the time.  Bus?

Voltaire called me town on D1, multiple times.  After calling me scummy and voting me.  The I'm on his "willing to lynch" list later in the day. And now he's tunneling me. 

Protects Lekkit from lynch when the "lynch a random lurker" plan falls on Lekkit.

As the day was winding down, he just started throwing his vote around ("mail-mi anyone?" "I'm tempted to vote for E", etc.) looking for a wagon to get going.

Voltaire came out early as BELIEVING faust's fake claim.  Who's more likely to believe town's claim, town or scum?  Scum, of course.  Because scum knows that person is town.  So why was Voltaire one of the very few believing the fake claim?  If faust's town lie helps us at all, maybe it is with this.

Even after the lie comes out, Voltaire pushes the "Faust must be town" motif.  He does this for town cred, and the ability to say "I TOLD YOU SO" on D2.

He then says he won't vote for me, again.  He tries mail-mi and Eevee various times, then is not around for the hammer on Faust.


And that ends D1.  That's a lot of case already.  I'll do D2 now.

[2.71828.....]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

this. 
chairs does have something to talk about

chairs only has one vote. I don't think he should claim unless we start thinking we should in fact lynch him and people start to vote him, but right now I don't know if anyone is going to vote unless they know why they should vote... so like I asked, could you (since you are the lone vote on chairs) reassemble why we should consider lynching him, or at least link to places where this has been talked about previously so people can refresh on this?

I wasn't necessarily saying I think he should claim.  I was more commenting on the fact that he says he has nothing to say.  He can at least respond as to whether he thinks he should/should not do this.

I will work on compiling a case against Chairs.  He hasn't been around much.  At all.  So I won't have much to go on.

[Robz888]

Okay, trying to get back into this. Some lynch options...

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

Mail-mi: Someone wants to lynch mail-mi, I think? Voltaire, yes? Maybe yuma? Do you still? Why?

2.7: I remember thinking his stances on faust were opportunistic. Others find him scummy for other reasons, yes?

Ichimaru: I've explained why I don't like this lynch, for now at least. Not because he isn't acting scummy--he definitely is--but because we don't have a frame of reference for him, the scum partners thing, and honestly it just seems too easy.

That leaves... Teproc (didn't like him defending ash, don't remember much else), Lekkit (can't remember a thing about him), and Voltaire (is playing me very well if he's scum, which is probably possible and I should try to think about, but I can't help see him as town for now).

[2.71828.....]

The case against chairs is that he is either a PR or scum.  Not a VT.  We have been working under the assumption that he is a PR.  However, we are more than halfway through D2 and he has not acted like a PR (in my opinion).  So I think that he is scum.  Now, it could be the case that he is a non-investigative PR (like doctor, jailkeeper, hider, 1-shot commuter, vengeful, or vigilante) in which case he does not have extra information to share with town that helps us lynch.  But we have elevated him to a position of being above suspicion, and he has done nothing to merit this in my opinion.

Please see my most recent statement.  "no face officers" are literally just "generic officer A" - people without a special face - or at least that's my impression of the data provided to us.  I believe that claiming names outs our PRs, albeit with the potential that we can WIFOM with scum regarding whether they claim No Face or a named officer.

-----------------------

My concern is that I don't think the lynch pool will be sufficiently small, and we have to WIFOM whether scum will claim VT (by claiming No Face) or PR (by providing a name).

Now, I was a little wrong in my last post about chairs.  He did respond to Teproc in the following post

Ok then. I think the best odds of finding scum right now is chairs. Of course scum might have been framing him by going PR-hunting, but it's not like Eevee was a surefire PR or anything, he had expressed disliking day 1s before and could easily have been a VT. He also seemed scummy to a lot of people, so by killing him, mafia also lost a potential mislynch if he was VT. This leads me to think that the probability of chairs being scum is much higher than the probability of a scumteam trying to frame him.

vote: chairs

As someone who is 100% sure I'm town, I can only assume that scum believe one of the following:

1) I will use my PR poorly/my PR is weak and they needn't bother killing me.
2) I will be mislynched today because of their kill choice last night, ensuring both a kill and another mislynch.
3) I'm not actually a PR, just a VT trying to gambit my way into looking PR-ish.

Obviously I know whether or not I'm really a PR, and I know I'm town.  If I'm a PR, and I had anything beneficial related to my PR to provide to town, clearly I would do so.

[ashersky]

Only 15 posts for Voltaire on D2, and it is almost exclusively tunneling me.  He mentions "hating" the 2.7 lynch idea, and that he would vote lio if he can't get me mislynched.

So, that's the Volt case.  Was that what you wanted, yuma?


If I had to guess now, I'd say the scum team could be:

Voltaire, Lekkit, 3rd

or

Robz, Ichimaru, Voltaire

[Robz888]

Looks like I left chairs out of my post. Um, well yeah, I agree, PR or scum. Not really sure what to do about that. I think he's a little suspicious for surviving obviously, but not like the most suspicious person or anything. And we really don't want him to claim unless he's like a leading lynch candidate, I think. I gather that not enough people really suspect him, so it's probably just best if he keeps quiet for one more night.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And here's what I feel about the current lynch options.

Ashersky: To be honest, I'm uncertain on this one. I think his overconfidence--even before Faust did anything really incriminating, does seem scummy. Yet, the case is still unconvincing to me. The sheer speed of the original wagon still makes me suspicious.

Teproc: He actually reads pretty scummy to me. Reasons at the end of this post.

Lekkit: Has really been lurking about as much as others, yet hasn't received the same suspicion for it. Interesting.

Liopoil/Chairs: Lurker lynches. Not the best, but still viable options pending how uneventful the rest of this day is. I agree that chairs should claim

2.7: I've honestly forgotten the details of this case.

Voltaire: Ash's post helped refresh my memory and better understand everything that has transpired. Totally ok with this one.

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

[yuma]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

I am still fine with the liopoil lynch as well, but no one has even commented on my points about him in regard to where his wagon was at when faust crazyclaimed--seriously am I the only one that finds it interesting that his wagons was the largest and then he received basically zero votes for the rest of the day while his counterparts for a possible lynch received a bunch?

[chairs]

My apologies for the inactivity - my free time is not my own anymore.  yuma, how do you manage to do this with a kid? I just have the girlfriend and I'm already out of time!

I have been promised that I'll have free time tonight.

[liopoil]

checking in, anything anyone wants me to address?

[liopoil]

you don't really explain why very many of these things are scummy, it's more of a 'look at everything voltaire has said this game!'. and a lot of those things are reasons I find voltaire townie.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

You must have missed my point that I don't believe that Teproc has contributed much (that he hasn't really been that involved). He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

I'm still not sold on a chairs or Ashersky lynch as of now, (in particular I believe that chairs has been legitimately busy).

I am currently suspicious of those involved in the Ash lynch--which IMO ramped up way to quickly. I have a town read on Liopoil for the above quote.

Also, another non-sarcastic question, how is OMGUS scummy? Is it just because it's read as a poor reason to vote for someone, saving scum from actually having to make a case, or possibly have accountability for their vote?

[liopoil]

Ok more concise post:

1. liopoil was the largest wagon at the time that faust claimed and the thread turned into chaos
2. after that point he received very few votes compared to others who were in that category of possibly being lynched (specifically sure 2.7, eevee and mail-mi)
3. the main points against liopoil from day1 are lurking and responding passively to suspicion (I maintain that liopoil responds more aggressively as scum) and that it is compelling that his lynch was not brought up as a possibility against him after faust claimed
4. points I would add are his case against 2.7 today (I tend to find arguments that so and so talked about why the NK died to be from scum, but this isn't always true. I did it as town in GoT against Voltaire when we were both town for example), general lurky behavior today (and I don't just mean during his VLA, rather that he has posted but really only participated in a dialogue with ashersky and hasn't done much else)

is number 1 supposed to be a reason to suspect me? I mean, it's not like faust claimed to protect me... faust was town! or is it 'There was support for the lio mislynch before, why can't we mislynch him now?' Being almost-lynched isn't suspicious, especially because of faust's claim.

#2: ...because my scumbuddies did all that voting? I would think my hypothetical scumbuddies would vote for faust, not e or mail-mi or eevee after faust's claim. And I don't remember those wagons growing much, I remember primarily everyone moving to faust, some from my wagon, some from others.

#3: a couple things here..... first off, would you prefer I always react aggresively to cases on me as town? because I don't think doing that is effective, except that maybe it would convince yuma because it would be fufilling my meta. But it isn't a meta I really want to continue... because people don't respond positively to aggression. I think I am more likely to avoid being mislynched via a more a reserved response. In previous games as town the cases on me have been really frustrating and have the frustration leaks out. And in previous games as scum I've had more of a motive to avoid the lynch, and also wasn't frustrated because the case was correct. This game, the points against me haven't been just blatantly false like I think they have been before, and so I am not particularly frustrated. If I were to react as I have in prior town games this game, then it would be fake, and being town, I am not going to fake emotions.

#4: well I haven't found that at all, and you said yourself that it isn't always accurate. Seems like this is a point you just added on because why not. Prior to my V/LA I do not think that I was particularly lurky on D2.

[Ichimaru Gin]

EDIT: Forgot to put Liopoil's quote in.

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

This is the "above quote" I was referring to.

[yuma]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

You must have missed my point that I don't believe that Teproc has contributed much (that he hasn't really been that involved). He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

Ok... but you need to prove this if it is actually true. Right now you are just saying it without backing it up. You say he is doing things that look to be towny. Why aren't they just towny things? What makes them change from "towny" to "the appearance of towny?"

Sure, no one is above suspicion and maybe Teproc deserves some scrutiny but you are just saying things w/o going back to check as far as I can tell. Doing so--and then voting!--without going back to check and make sure your remembering is correct in conjunction with the OMGUS mention does make it look like it is more of a cover for a OMGUS vote and hence why I think it is scummy of you.

[yuma]

Also, another non-sarcastic question, how is OMGUS scummy? Is it just because it's read as a poor reason to vote for someone, saving scum from actually having to make a case, or possibly have accountability for their vote?

OMGUS is--or can be--scummy because it is twofold. One it discredits the case that is on you (the case on me is bad because he is scum!) and second moves the focus away from you toward him (don't look at me, look at him!)

It isn't always scummy, but it certainly can be used. I think everyone that has played as scum has used it before, especially as sometimes it obtains the reputation of being so scummy, scum would never do it, but scum does.

[liopoil]

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

I find both of these suspicious. Both are disclaimed at the end saying that it might be town!ash or town!lio. ash first:

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

I really find it weird that robz isn't totally sold on the reason for suspecting me like he was before. Reads to me like it was an attempt to get me mislynched yesterday, but today there's more viable mislynches like ashersky. I remember he sort of did that in the B2B game that got reset, so when robz was scum and I was still town.

So I'm thinking that most likely one of robz and ashersky is scum, but ashersky is still more likely.

[liopoil]

Vote count please

[yuma]

Ok more concise post:

1. liopoil was the largest wagon at the time that faust claimed and the thread turned into chaos
2. after that point he received very few votes compared to others who were in that category of possibly being lynched (specifically sure 2.7, eevee and mail-mi)
3. the main points against liopoil from day1 are lurking and responding passively to suspicion (I maintain that liopoil responds more aggressively as scum) and that it is compelling that his lynch was not brought up as a possibility against him after faust claimed
4. points I would add are his case against 2.7 today (I tend to find arguments that so and so talked about why the NK died to be from scum, but this isn't always true. I did it as town in GoT against Voltaire when we were both town for example), general lurky behavior today (and I don't just mean during his VLA, rather that he has posted but really only participated in a dialogue with ashersky and hasn't done much else)

is number 1 supposed to be a reason to suspect me? I mean, it's not like faust claimed to protect me... faust was town! or is it 'There was support for the lio mislynch before, why can't we mislynch him now?' Being almost-lynched isn't suspicious, especially because of faust's claim.

#2: ...because my scumbuddies did all that voting? I would think my hypothetical scumbuddies would vote for faust, not e or mail-mi or eevee after faust's claim. And I don't remember those wagons growing much, I remember primarily everyone moving to faust, some from my wagon, some from others.

#3: a couple things here..... first off, would you prefer I always react aggresively to cases on me as town? because I don't think doing that is effective, except that maybe it would convince yuma because it would be fufilling my meta. But it isn't a meta I really want to continue... because people don't respond positively to aggression. I think I am more likely to avoid being mislynched via a more a reserved response. In previous games as town the cases on me have been really frustrating and have the frustration leaks out. And in previous games as scum I've had more of a motive to avoid the lynch, and also wasn't frustrated because the case was correct. This game, the points against me haven't been just blatantly false like I think they have been before, and so I am not particularly frustrated. If I were to react as I have in prior town games this game, then it would be fake, and being town, I am not going to fake emotions.

#4: well I haven't found that at all, and you said yourself that it isn't always accurate. Seems like this is a point you just added on because why not. Prior to my V/LA I do not think that I was particularly lurky on D2.

point 1 alone certainly isn't a reason to vote or lynch you, but it is part of point 2. I do find it striking that you were highly considered as a lynch option and hadn't done anything to get rid of that suspicion yourself... rather it was faust claiming that got rid of it for you (and of course I am not saying faust claimed to protect you... I know he is town, you know he is town, so obviously lio I must be saying something else....) and then never received that suspicion back as day1 progressed while the other potential candidates at the time of faust's claim (eevee, 2.7 and mail-mi) all did. Don't you see why that is interesting? Why were you ignored while the focus was put on others? That is the question I am trying to probe that everyone has ignored except for you at this point.

point3: your meta is your own deal. you do what you want with it, but don't get frustrated for me finding you suspicious because of it. You created it, if you want to change it go ahead if you don't want to change it don't, but I am not just going to give you a pass this game while you say you are going to change it.

point4: I added it because I was going through your day2 stuff and it was the only thing that stood out. I think you have been lurky day2--VLA aside--not in terms of post count but rather that you really only had a back and forth with ash that really didn't require you to post anything other than bickering back and forth. You aren't the only player that has lurker or lacked content day2, but this isn't the sole reason I was voting you.