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[Ichimaru Gin]

Reads.
Chairs--been lurking like a *ton*. Don't really have much of a read on him, but the lurking is scummy.

Lekkit--Lurked most of D1. I'm leaning scummy, but that's just gonna sound like OMGUS.

Ashersky--Really don't see the case against him. Yeah, he was overconfident about Faust and ended up being wrong, but that just sounds like Ash.

Liopoil--actually a slight townread on him. He jumped off the Ash wagon when he saw it was getting too serious. That doesn't read scum to me.

Everyone else, not really sure. I'm leaning a little more town on 2.7 now. I'd like to hear from chairs, cause otherwise, I think he's a good lynch.

oh yeah.... could scum really have suspected eevee to be a PR more than they suspect chairs to be PR? that makes chairs look pretty bad, actually...

This makes sense. I don't know why chairs isn't posting. I recall something about a live-in-lady-friend. Of the games I've read, he seems to have a lurker meta though.
Also, is chairs a PR like much more often than anyone else?

PPE: 2

[Teproc]

Also, to everyone saying 2.7's post about Eevee is scummy - this is one of those "we call it scummy but scum never does it" things. I did it in GoT and yuma thought I was scummy for it (we were both town). I've seen many people accused of it but never seen them flip scum.

It's not really the same thing though. What's scummy in e's post is that he seems to be anticipating town blaming him for the Eevee kill, which is not a connection I would have made at all if he hadn't talked about it. To me, trying to justify yourself for things you haven't even been accused of yet is scummy.

About chairs. We've been assuming he's either a scum or a PR, but he could be a VT who misread his PM or something. Still, I guess I'll go with that assumption. In that case, I think he needs to claim. His survival is very scummy (although of course scum could have gone PR-hunting to frame him), and he is the main lynch target if he doesn't claim I think. Of coursehe shouldn't do anything before we've agreed that it's the best move hough.

[Robz888]

I'm here and caught up. I think the ash wagon is just weird. Robz, if you think ash votes for faust for weak reasons (I agree with that), what's changed ? faust's flip doesn't really change much to me, ash's reasons were already weak then.

Yeah, I guess I just didn't care about it as much yesterday. I just ignored the case until faust became scummy for other reason's. Now I can't shake the feeling that scum!ashersky is cursing his bad luck that faust went insane and got himself lynched, exposing the weakness of ash's "100% certain" read.

[Robz888]

The case against Ichimaru is so good it must actually be terrible. Partners would have warned him not to make every single newbie scum mistake in the book.

I could see him as a partnerless SK, but we don't have a good reason to think there's an SK right now.

[Voltaire]

The case against Ichimaru is so good it must actually be terrible. Partners would have warned him not to make every single newbie scum mistake in the book.

I could see him as a partnerless SK, but we don't have a good reason to think there's an SK right now.

This.

[mail-mi]

My take on Ichimaru-  We need to decide if his opportunistic voting is newb!scum or newb!town.  Since he is a new player, he may just be excited about trying to lynch someone and could very well be town. However, he could also be scum and not realize how scummy it makes him look.  I just wonder if his scum partner would have warned him about that overnight in their qt as he exhibited the same behaviors on D1.  So I lean a little town on him.  However, he does need more reads than sheep!votes

It's usually new!town in my experience. It's where I've had the most success (trying to) stop "easy" mislynches.

Of course, mail-mi votes that way even though he's not new. Did mail-mi vote that way when he was new town?

Yes. It's why I got mislynched D1 in ash's newbie game. I see myself in Gin, and as such will not participate in lynching him.

[yuma]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

If you think he is scum this much this is exactly why you you should be voting for him, L-1 be damned. Again, let him worry about being at L-1. If he is town he will unvote, if he is scum he will probably unvote as well and if he doesn't then he gets lynched and we are happy.

[yuma]

The problem now, though, is if I unvote, it's scummy because "hey ash doesn't want to die he's scum!" is sure to be tossed out by someone.  So it's a catch-22.  Sure, it's partly my own doing, from 30-some games of creating my own meta.  Still exists, though, and there's little to be done.

Or people will think hey... ash doesn't want to get lynched, at the very least that is a null tell because it is pro-town. At the best it is a town move because it means your vote isnt' on you. Just move your vote man... especially if you are going to be VLA.

[yuma]

Policy voting is not much better than self-voting. We are trying to win this game, future games shouldn't matter.

Policy voting is just as useful for this game as it is for future games. My vote on ash is for this game and the future. Just because it is a policy vote doesn't mean it is soley for the future. Having ash remove his vote is good for this game regardless of future ones...

[yuma]

Also, why do people find 2.7 scummy? I don't really get it. That he didn't hammer faust? That he voted for chairs? The most compelling case against him is that he wasn't posting much until yuma called him out. But I think even that's a pretty weak case.

Lekkit you never explained why you had 2.7 at like a 10% day1. And I still want it answered. I can see maybe you having a null read, but you had an extremely strong read. I want that explained. Both your read then and your current read now.

[liopoil]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

If you think he is scum this much this is exactly why you you should be voting for him, L-1 be damned. Again, let him worry about being at L-1. If he is town he will unvote, if he is scum he will probably unvote as well and if he doesn't then he gets lynched and we are happy.

he won't unvote if he's town, he said himself that he'd rather get lynched than not get lynched.

[yuma]

Ichimaru Gin. very scummy in all. Opportunistic voting, only following other people's cases and not contributing much. Could possibly be due to him being new.

chairs. The fact that he didn't die tonight means basically nothing. But the fact that he hasn't really done anything at all makes him pretty suspicious in my opinion.

ashersky. Does crazy stuff. I tend to lean scummy on him by default. No exception here, but aside from that, I can't really make sense of ash's play at all. Playing against your wincon (selfvoting) is never good, though.

Voltaire. I was pretty suspicious of him earlier, especially since he disappeared at the end of the day and then reappeared closer to the deadline. I've cooled down somewhat here. Especially since a lot of other players seems to think he's towny. And that many players having an expressed town read on someone might mean that I'm wrong.

This whole post just rings false to me... It is like the island of easy mislynches (assuming of course that these three are mislynches, which I guess is something of a stretch) except for Voltaire where Lekkit is moving a a scumread to a townread based solely off fitting in with the general perception seems scummy to me.

[yuma]

The case against Ichimaru is so good it must actually be terrible. Partners would have warned him not to make every single newbie scum mistake in the book.

You might be right, but I am annoyed with how people came to this conclusion too soon. I would have been interested to see how Ichimaru would have reacted to getting 3-4 votes on him and some more pressure and see what he would say.

[Teproc]

The case against Ichimaru is so good it must actually be terrible. Partners would have warned him not to make every single newbie scum mistake in the book.

That makes sense, although I don't think he got much suspicion on day 1 (because of the newbie pass), so maybe his partner thought he was fine ?

[yuma]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

If you think he is scum this much this is exactly why you you should be voting for him, L-1 be damned. Again, let him worry about being at L-1. If he is town he will unvote, if he is scum he will probably unvote as well and if he doesn't then he gets lynched and we are happy.

he won't unvote if he's town, he said himself that he'd rather get lynched than not get lynched.

Do you think he really means that or do you think that was something he said when he was frustrated and annoyed?

[Teproc]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

[yuma]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

I'd say let's get the votes and then if we do he can claim if he wants.... Just having him claim skips steps that I think need to be taken... unless chairs himself thinks he has a really good reason for claiming (pro-hint, he probably doesn't...)

I guess what I mean to say is that I am against claiming prematurely. If enough people think he is scummy and worth of a vote then they should just vote him anything short of that is PR fishing in my opinion. If not then why claim? Obviously if chairs has a really good result then he should claim it.... but as he hasn't yet, I doubt he has anything good.

[ashersky]

vote: ichimaru

[Teproc]

Ok then. I think the best odds of finding scum right now is chairs. Of course scum might have been framing him by going PR-hunting, but it's not like Eevee was a surefire PR or anything, he had expressed disliking day 1s before and could easily have been a VT. He also seemed scummy to a lot of people, so by killing him, mafia also lost a potential mislynch if he was VT. This leads me to think that the probability of chairs being scum is much higher than the probability of a scumteam trying to frame him.

vote: chairs

[ashersky]

Cross-posting for reference:

Honestly, I'll be completely focused on family time for the Christmas holidays, so basically LA until Monday.

[Lekkit]

Also, why do people find 2.7 scummy? I don't really get it. That he didn't hammer faust? That he voted for chairs? The most compelling case against him is that he wasn't posting much until yuma called him out. But I think even that's a pretty weak case.

Lekkit you never explained why you had 2.7 at like a 10% day1. And I still want it answered. I can see maybe you having a null read, but you had an extremely strong read. I want that explained. Both your read then and your current read now.

Allright, basically his reaction to the whole chairs thing looked like a townie reacting to it. Then he was pretty much the one that pushed town towards doing suff when nobody else was. Nothing has changed when it comes to that.

[Lekkit]

Also, I'll be gone tomorrow and probably the day after that too.

[2.71828.....]

non-RVS "voting for Eevee" history

/701 Robz votes Eevee as a “random lurker lynch” candidate
/703 Liopoil votes Eevee as a placeholder and because “if I had to lynch someone right now that's probably who I'd pick.”
/729 2.7 votes Eevee at the conclusion of the Galz deduction post.  The reasoning is that Eevee is providing no reason at all for why we should not lynch him.
/918 Yuma votes Eevee based partly on the fact that he does not believe that town!eevee would really be as devoid of comments as he was up to that point.
/964 2.7 votes Eevee because he no longer liked the Faust lynch and Eevee was the other target using the reasoning from /729
/1029 Voltaire votes Eevee since he does not want to vote Faust and mail-mi wasn’t getting support
/1048 Faust votes Eevee because why not
/1051 Teproc votes Eevee as an alternative to mail-mi
/1065 Voltaire comes back to Eevee after a brief stay on mail-mi
/1072 Teproc comes back to Eevee after a brief stay on mail-mi
/1085 mail-mi votes Eevee.  Says he is fine with the Faust lynch even though he prefers Eevee

People who voted Eevee (in order): Robz, liopoil, 2.7, yuma, voltaire, faust, teproc, mail-mi

The most interesting part of this wagon is that it was (almost) everyone’s second choice vote.  Robz says he is a fine lurker lynch (which is suboptimal) but never goes back to him after Faust does his fake-claim.  Liopoil puts him down as a placeholder.  Voltaire and Teproc both preferred mail-mi.  Faust was in self-preservation mode.  mail-mi and 2.7 were the only ones who seemed to express the opinion that Eevee was their primary target.  Another interesting thing to note is how quickly Teproc followed Voltaire around with mail-mi then Eevee.  I seriously doubt this is scum/scum but they might just be playing us to have a reference point to say "how could we both be scum."  Statistically, we will find scum somewhere in all these votes, but I don’t think there is anything in the wagon itself that makes me think someone is scummy.  mail-mi leaving the wagon to hammer Faust is interesting but I will talk about that when I cover the Faust wagon.

I will get Faust done sometime late tonight/tomorrow unless someone beats me to it. 

[liopoil]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

If you think he is scum this much this is exactly why you you should be voting for him, L-1 be damned. Again, let him worry about being at L-1. If he is town he will unvote, if he is scum he will probably unvote as well and if he doesn't then he gets lynched and we are happy.

he won't unvote if he's town, he said himself that he'd rather get lynched than not get lynched.

Do you think he really means that or do you think that was something he said when he was frustrated and annoyed?

well, he did just move his vote, so I dunno... hmmmm. Not sure what to think anymore.

[yuma]

well I guess I'll note that I will be pretty absent as well although if everyone is absent I guess no one will notice... probably won't post much at all tomorrow, nothing Wednesday and very little again on Thursday...

Are the mods considering adding two days to the deadline? If not can I request that they consider it?