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[faust]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

How many V combos include Vengeful as an option?

Well, mafiascum is online again, so you all can check that, but from the top of my head, every V combo expect 7V includes Vengeful as an option.

[faust]

Yeah, if faust does NOT post before mafiascum comes back up, that's even MORE damning evidence against him.

Yes, it's the evidence that I sleep at night. Only scum does that!

[faust]

I find Faust's claim completely scummy. That, and the fact that he just disappeared after making it. His excuse does not hold up in my mind either.
We need a lynch today, and I think Faust is it.
vote: Faust

Yes, of course, just disappearing after it is uber-scummy. Because certainly everyone is just going to believe and go ahead lynch someone else. No, the reason I disappeared (expect being tired) is that I wanted some discussion on this, and if it lead to a lynch, fine, that's probably not the worst thing ever. I'm only responding now because some players that I believe to be town have asked me to do so.

[faust]

Shoot 2.7, faust!

Agreed.

I will consider it.

[faust]

Well, in fact, vote: e. mail-mi isn't super-scummy, and has announced that he will be gone till the deadline, so it would be bad to lynch him.

[yuma]

Okay I need to know why faust claimed. Why, faust? You weren't going to be lynched. Why claim?

I'm realistic. At the point this game was, it was unlikely that we would hit scum D1. It was, instead, possible for us to accidentally lynch a town PR without giving them a chance to claim because we're running out of time. I offered a lynch that, while it doesn't hit scum directly, is probably the best mislynch town can get (because it activates my power).

But if you are telling the truth we wouldn't need to know that you were vengeful for it to be activated. You would have been lynched and then could use your power...

And it isn't like you are wanting our imput here, you said from the beginning that you wanted to shoot ashersky, so claiming to get our advice wasn't on your mind at all? Then why claim? Regardless of you claiming, if you are telling the truth you would still be a vengeful right? Now if you are telling the truth mafia knows this and can correctly posture themselves to be in a more adventageous position so you don't shoot them.... whereas if you had kept quiet they wouldn't know anything....

I am not sure I follow your line of thought on why this was good.

[2.71828.....]

An overnight wagon on me. Exciting. Could someone last out the whole case against me? It seems to be part posting habits, part chairs vote, part something else. I will be at work soon to start working through some thoughts.

[yuma]

An overnight wagon on me. Exciting. Could someone last out the whole case against me? It seems to be part posting habits, part chairs vote, part something else. I will be at work soon to start working through some thoughts.

I think the biggest thing was what Robz pointed out:

Woah, major inconsistency here.

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still town.

Unvote for now. I do not want to lynch Faust while he is away. And he was L-2. And the more I think about it the more I think if we lynch Faust we will lose ashersky and that they are both actually town. I still don't like the claim, and if it was a frustration claim I don't see something happening that he should have gotten frustrated over. If it was a claim to stimulate discussion then why didn't he stay around though?

But above all, he needs a chance to say something, and I do not want to be a part of a lynch that kills him before he has that chance.

At this point I will vote Faust or eevee. I will probably not vote tonight, but I will be here before the deadline and I will have a vote down.

2.7 is totally trying to have it both ways... supporting the faust lynch enough to have it go through, but being posed to be on record as having thought faust was town for after he flips town (if faust does flip town, which he will if 2.7 is scum).

So as scummy as I find everything having to do with faust, this looks much worse, yes? I would totally toally lynch 2.7 for this. These were back to back posts, not like evolving reads. (2.7 initially evolved to thinking faust was town right after the claim disappearance, which I think is just objectively the opposite reaction a townie should have had. It's opposite my reaction.)

Vote: 2.7 I will be around at deadline and an hour or two before deadline, and will move to Eevee, liopoil, faust, or mail-mi, or faust if necessary. I actually like the faust lynch even more now since if it's wrong, he could shoot 2.7. I don't want him to shoot ashersky, if ash is wrong about faust he's wrong, whatever, town ash has bad early reads and is brashly overconfident all the time. Shoot 2.7, faust!

basically that it looks like you are trying to get faust lynched, but wanting to be able to be on the side of thinking he was town if he flips town....

[yuma]

count yuma.2

2.7... (4): Teproc, Robz, mail-mi, faust
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Eevee (1): yuma
liopoil (2): Eevee, chairs
faust (5): ashersky, Lekkit, 2.7, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin

Well all of the other alternative lynches have died off (eevee, mail-mi and liopoil... I am very intrigued by this and will want to look at it more closely come tomorrow). I still feel confident about removing 2.7 from my lynch pool... I agree the posturing thing Robz brought up could be something, but I don't think it is enough for me to revert him back into my scum read list.

And I think that puts me at vote: faust. That is L-1 I might prefer lio or eevee to this, but neither seem to have enough at this point. But that isn't really true... all three of these players are pretty much sixes to me... and as I will be leaving for work soon, I need my vote down so faust it is. I don't see the narrative he laid out for explaning why he claimed. It doesn't make sense to me as I already outlined. He could have kept quiet and been lynched and we would have had the same outcome if he was telling the truth... but I don't think he is at this point.

[2.71828.....]

Initial thought: Do not lynch Faust

I say do not lynch Faust right now. There is a good chance he gets NKed because his reads can only get better as time progresses. Worst case: lynch Faust (town) kills ashersky (town) and scum kill [insert name here] (town) and SK kills [insert name here] (town).

After reading some of what other people wrote, and looking back at what he claimed as flavor name, I thought this:

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

His flavor is all bad to. Town!e is shu. Town!ash is shu. Scum!Faust is wu.

Then I realized that I was wrong about the flavor.  (I totally forgot there were two types of good guys)  I went back to being hesitant about the lynch, but kept my vote

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

His flavor is all bad to. Town!e is shu. Town!ash is shu. Scum!Faust is wu.

or, he is at least different than us. So we will likely get at least 1 scum for 1 town

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

oh. Well then. I forgot to go back and look at that. All three of us might be town

These three show that I am more and more viewing Faust as town

I'm also willing to vote for faust because if I'm wrong and he flips town, I'm a-ok with him shooting ash.

see I think that will be the death of two town members.

I will be voting for faust unless we get a great explanation from him. I'm now thinking the most plausible explanation for what just happened is that it was a fake claim gone wrong when he realized mafiascum wiki was down.

see, he was in no rush to claim though. Our fake claim. Whichever. I think mafiascum being down actually helps his claim. Because if I were to fake claim I would get the info and all my ducks in a row before the claim

I will be voting for faust unless we get a great explanation from him. I'm now thinking the most plausible explanation for what just happened is that it was a fake claim gone wrong when he realized mafiascum wiki was down.

see, he was in no rush to claim though. Our fake claim. Whichever. I think mafiascum being down actually helps his claim. Because if I were to fake claim I would get the info and all my ducks in a row before the claim

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still to town.

My question: do we lynch anti-town behavior? Or do we lynch scum? They are not always the same thing. He is not SK. No way.

Then, because we might be at a dangerous point with the wagon at L-2 (not at L-1 as Ashersky said) I went ahead and unvoted, again saying that I think they both might be town.

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still town.

Unvote for now. I do not want to lynch Faust while he is away. And he was L-2. And the more I think about it the more I think if we lynch Faust we will lose ashersky and that they are both actually town. I still don't like the claim, and if it was a frustration claim I don't see something happening that he should have gotten frustrated over. If it was a claim to stimulate discussion then why didn't he stay around though?

But above all, he needs a chance to say something, and I do not want to be a part of a lynch that kills him before he has that chance.

So yes, I flip-flopped a bit.  So I would say if I vote Faust then I have set myself up to say "I told you so, he was town" but my current unvote status (extra emphasis because people missed it earlier) is more in line with what I have posted recently than not.  But you can read the progression of my posts/thoughts and say for yourself it is is scummy.

[2.71828.....]

Vote Count 1.13

怪客

2.7... (1): Teproc
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, faust
Eevee (2): Robz888, yuma
liopoil (3): Eevee, chairs, mail-mi
faust (5): ashersky, Lekkit, 2.7, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:30 p.m. Forum time.

This vote count was wrong.  I was not voting Faust.  I had unvoted two posts previous

[2.71828.....]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

How many V combos include Vengeful as an option?

they are actually "K" combos according to the wiki, which is why he said K. I believe if we rolled 1 K it is 50/50 for vengeful/ vig.  Multiple K rolls force a vengeful

I don't know what either one of e and teproc are talking about, I'm looking at the setup right in front of me and I'm it does not say what they think it says.

Killing Roles
K = Vengeful OR Vigilante (50/50 chance of either)
KK = Vengeful, Vigilante
KKK = Vengeful, Vigilante, Vigilante
KKKK = Vengeful, Vengeful, Vigilante, Vigilante

I don't know what wiki page liopoil was looking at, because it seems to me like I remembered the vengeful/vigilante situation pretty well.

[Teproc]

liopil was trying to discredit what you and me were saying to give faust a chance to be wrong. If faust flips scum, that's a pretty towny thing to do (and we would both deserve scum points for what we did because that's exactly what faust's scumpartners would have done).

[liopoil]

Yeah, I lied. you guys were totally right.

[2.71828.....]

If faust is telling the truth and this set-up actually uses Vengeful, that's the absolute go-to fakeclaim for scum if they're being lynched.  It keeps you from being lynched most of the time.  Vengeful fits scum way better than town anyway.

I have no fear of being killed by faust if he's lynched.  He's lying.

What, Vengeful keeps you from being lynched? I think it encourages lynching you, because doing that gives another town-controlled kill.

Ok.  This post really seems to me like Faust is disgusted town and really wants to use his vengeful power to kill Ash (who he strongly believes to be scum). 

Here is what I see as the situation:
Lynch Faust
    1) town!faust vengeful kills town!ash - terrible.  We lose two town, scum kill another.  So now we are maybe at 3 scum 7 town (most likely 3 scum, not guarenteed).  Compound that with a SK and we could be either 3 scum, 5 town, 1 SK or 2 scum, 6 town, 1 SK.
    2) town!faust vengeful kills scum!ash - great.  one for one trade.  But scum still get the NK so 2 scum 8 town (+SK possibilities) We are in a fine situation
    3) scum!faust dies.  Awesome

Lynch someone else today
    1) Scum NK vengeful!Faust because they do not want him to be able to use his vengeful kill.  WIFOM especially concerning Ashersky.  would scum!ash kill vengeful!faust to avoid getting venge!killed? 
    2) We lynch vengeful!Faust tomorrow.  He has more data to use for his venge!kill.  He might end up on Ash, he might end up on someone else, but it will be a more informed kill.
    3) We lynch scum!Faust tomorrow.  Awesome.

Waiting one night also gives a chance for town PRs (if we have them) to investigate people and figure out things.  A tracker, flavor cop, and gunsmith and all possible PRs that will be able to investigate people. 

I am not a fan of the claim.  I am also not a fan of the Faust lynch right now.  All things held constant I will lynch him tomorrow, but I don't really want to lynch him today.

vote: eevee

[Teproc]

This switch is interesting. Makes me question my scum read on e. A lot. Unvote for now.

[liopoil]

I really want to lynch faust because a) he could be NKed and we lose his vengekill, b) we score if either ash or him is scum, better odds than if we lynch someone else, and c) he isn't town.

I really think he's scum. I'll use that same quote that e just quoted:

If faust is telling the truth and this set-up actually uses Vengeful, that's the absolute go-to fakeclaim for scum if they're being lynched.  It keeps you from being lynched most of the time.  Vengeful fits scum way better than town anyway.

I have no fear of being killed by faust if he's lynched.  He's lying.

What, Vengeful keeps you from being lynched? I think it encourages lynching you, because doing that gives another town-controlled kill.

he doesn't know what vengeful does. the PM on mafiascum says:

Town Vengeful
Welcome, [Player Name], you are a Town Vengeful.
Abilities:
If you are lynched, you may vengekill any player in the game during twilight. You do not have to kill.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

pretty clear that he dies when he gets lynched.

He is also scum because he was absent exactly between when he claimed and when mafiascum came back up.

he is also scum because his claim is bad, and scum make bad claims (for town) more than town.

he is also scum because he came right out of the gate saying he will vengekill ash, who is likely town I think, and who I don't see why he would suspect besides OMGUS.

he is also scum because he appears to want to be lynched, but isn't self-voting or explicitly asking to be lynched. scum gambit.

lynch faust guys. do it.

faust, should you actually be town, I highly recommend not shooting ashersky, he's town methinks. Why do you suspect him? shoot e. or eevee. not ashersky.

I guess I should explain my lie, though it should be obvious. I was covering up for e and teproc, giving faust some doubt about what it really was. Also, faust did end up getting it semi-wrong, right?

[Teproc]

I really want to lynch faust because a) he could be NKed and we lose his vengekill, b) we score if either ash or him is scum, better odds than if we lynch someone else, and c) he isn't town.

Not using his vengekill isn't a loss for town. It's not exactly a win, but it's not a loss in my mind.

We score if either or them are scum, but we also double-mislynch if they're both town. Maybe someone can run the odds on that, but I don't think this is a good lynch statistically speaking, even less when you factor in that I think ash is likely to be town.

I really think he's scum. I'll use that same quote that e just quoted:

If faust is telling the truth and this set-up actually uses Vengeful, that's the absolute go-to fakeclaim for scum if they're being lynched.  It keeps you from being lynched most of the time.  Vengeful fits scum way better than town anyway.

I have no fear of being killed by faust if he's lynched.  He's lying.

What, Vengeful keeps you from being lynched? I think it encourages lynching you, because doing that gives another town-controlled kill.

he doesn't know what vengeful does. the PM on mafiascum says:

Town Vengeful
Welcome, [Player Name], you are a Town Vengeful.
Abilities:
If you are lynched, you may vengekill any player in the game during twilight. You do not have to kill.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

pretty clear that he dies when he gets lynched.

What ? I took it as meaning that the act of claiming vengeful may or may not get you lynched. If you seriously think faust was confused about Vengeful making him Lynchproof, I don't know what to tell you.

He is also scum because he was absent exactly between when he claimed and when mafiascum came back up.

Also known as 11pm to 8am (I don't know when exactly mafiascum came back but you know) where faust lives.
[/quote]

It's weird that most of my day 1 feels like I've been defending faust when I don't even have a town read on him, but people keep comling up with the most ludicrous reasons for wanting to lynch him.

[2.71828.....]

It's weird that most of my day 1 feels like I've been defending faust when I don't even have a town read on him, but people keep comling up with the most ludicrous reasons for wanting to lynch him.

Hence my town read on Teproc.  Town wants a good, reasoned lynch.  Scum will just kill whoever works.

[2.71828.....]

Now, about the Eevee lynch: We don't have any "good, reasoned" evidence to lynch him based on what he has said, but because of what he hasn't said.  Sure, circumstantial evidence is in play because he has had low content D1 while scum in the past (toy story is the only thing I have to draw upon) and that he really didn't defend himself at all here today.  More of just a "if I stay away they will forget I exist" defense.

Actually, intriguing theory that doesn't necessarily work because scum don't have daychat to coordinate this kind of thing:  scum!Faust claimed to get pressure off the scum!Eevee lynch, where we were headed.  scum!Eevee will have a chance to up his usefulness over the course of D2 because there is some "interesting stuff" going on now.  Avoid getting lynched there.  Survive to the end?

[faust]

It is probably the time to call this off.

I am not Vengeful. I claimed to be to get reactions.

This is why I fixed my kill on ashersky. I wanted to see how he reacted. And I don't find his reaction particularly towny. What is more, the whole discussion about whether or not to kill me will be much more insightful once we know ashersky's alignment. If he's town, look for scum on my wagon. If he's scum, look for the other scum among people defending me (yes, it's not always that easy, but I think a good baseline).

Vote: ashersky

[2.71828.....]

It is probably the time to call this off.

I am not Vengeful. I claimed to be to get reactions.

This is why I fixed my kill on ashersky. I wanted to see how he reacted. And I don't find his reaction particularly towny. What is more, the whole discussion about whether or not to kill me will be much more insightful once we know ashersky's alignment. If he's town, look for scum on my wagon. If he's scum, look for the other scum among people defending me (yes, it's not always that easy, but I think a good baseline).

Vote: ashersky

oh my

[2.71828.....]

so now you are claiming that you were lying town, but that it was a useful lie.

[Teproc]

What the hell ?

[Teproc]

Before anything happens : policy lynching is bad, people. We're playing to win this game, we shouldn't worry about future games.

Need to think if faust's play makes more sense as scum or town, but I feel like it doesn't make sense at all.