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[Robz888]

You know what, I bet neither liopoil nor mail-mi flip scum, they're just too easy.

Let's try semi-random last minute lynch again. Vote: Lekkit, an un-scrutinized lurker.

I'm fine with the concept, not fine with the candidate. He's not a lurker. Go re-read him. His posts have content. Specifically read his case against me. It's wrong, but can you imagine scum making it? I think it's far more likely to come from town.

Okay, just reread: you're definitely right he's not lurker (actually think Lekkit is maybe a she? Has a female Goko avatar...), however, seems to me all his stances could easily be scum stances. Really, Lekkit's very consistently opposed flavor claiming, and very consistently built a case against Voltaire.

Okay, so, I've said this before and I'll say it again, I really do think flavor claiming would benefit town, and I've been shut down left and right by like people who oppose it on philosophical grounds, which I think is dumb but actually fairly townie. Lekkit actually thinks claiming would be bad, and this I do believe is wrong, and something scum would say.

As for the case against you, maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. It's probably wrong. It did take a good amount of work, yoeah, that tends toward townie probably. But I don't know, it's very safe. He's sort of parked himself on it, you know?

[Robz888]

If we want random lurker eevee is our guy

Oops, didn't even remember Eevee, that's how much he is the right choice, yes yes yes yes. Vote: Eevee

[Ichimaru Gin]

And, only one Final to go. . .
I'm voting Liopoil because.
1. He has a very low post count.
2. The posts that he has made are relatively low on content
3. When attacked, he responded with

well dang, sorry guys. It's exam week, but I still should have contributed more than I have been. catching up. Serious thank you for putting me at L-2, so I have a motive to contribute... because lynching town is bad. It really should not work that way, but it did.

e: I get being frustrated at lurkers. Once upon a time, I actually was near the top of the post count a few games in a row, and I was frustrated at lurkers too. But now that I've been there, I realize it's just something we have to deal with. Is it bad for town? yes. Should it happen? no. Will it inevitably happen every game? yes. We're playing a game on the internet, and while everyone made a commitment in signing up, they aren't really committed in the sense that nothing terrible happens to them if they lurk.

That said, it still is rude of me and others to put this game to the side and not contribute. I'm going to try to get back into this game now, something that I've done successfully a few times as both alignments.

I do understand the pressures of exams. I just got out of one ten minutes ago. However, I feel that this is still a poor reason for lurking. I mean, I know how much time I waste doing other things all the time--even during Final's week. You can almost always find a couple minutes to check in and post something that really adds to the game. Generally, I found this response pretty scummy in that it's excuses didn't really add up.
And when it comes down to it, like I said, we need a lynch. Even a lurker lynch is usually better than no lynch. So let's see this finished before the deadline.

ok. This rubbed me the wrong way. It almost felt like a "let's get the least bad lynch in." That type of behavior is not pro town. That is one of the reasons that I was voting Faust. The deadline is in less than 48 hours, but there is still time to build a case on someone else and we do not need to comment ourselves with an ok VT lynch. Although, I can see how a new player will feel the pressure here to make sure we get a lynch.

You're probably right on that. And don't think I was considering just how much development could happen in 48 hours. If there is a strong case against someone else, I will certainly change my vote to reflect that. In hindsight, I probably made things sound a little more open and shut then they actually are.
I don't yet have a handle on what the progression of a regular game would be exactly. But I guess two days is still a lot of time for things to change. And yes, the goal isn't just to lynch someone when it seems like it won't hurt town much; the goal is to lynch scum. There's just so little information D1, it's hard to tell.
Liopoil is the first D1 wagon, but there's certainly room for another before the deadline.

[liopoil]

to have my vote somewhere, vote: eevee. also because if I had to lynch someone right now that's probably who I'd pick.

[Voltaire]

As for the case against you, maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. It's probably wrong. It did take a good amount of work, yoeah, that tends toward townie probably. But I don't know, it's very safe. He's sort of parked himself on it, you know?

He also has the "wait, what?" where he clearly thinks I've scum-slipped. Though scum-slips are never a reason to vote for someone, I see newbie town as on the lookout for that sort of easy thing.

(also Lekkit if you prefer "she" apologies, just let us know!)

[2.71828.....]

Check the profile. Lekkit is "male" according to it. No need for speculation

[Eevee]

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Lekkit's male, I'm pretty sure.

[2.71828.....]

As for the case against you, maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. It's probably wrong. It did take a good amount of work, yoeah, that tends toward townie probably. But I don't know, it's very safe. He's sort of parked himself on it, you know?

He also has the "wait, what?" where he clearly thinks I've scum-slipped. Though scum-slips are never a reason to vote for someone, I see newbie town as on the lookout for that sort of easy thing.

(also Lekkit if you prefer "she" apologies, just let us know!)

lekkit is not a newbie. He took a break, and is back

[Voltaire]

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Where have you been/what have you been doing, I guess.

Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

[Voltaire]

lekkit is not a newbie. He took a break, and is back

That is right, and wonderfully enough, I corrected someone else about that earlier, then forgot.

[Eevee]

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Where have you been/what have you been doing, I guess.

Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

I haven't been VLA, if that's what you are asking? Just.. day 1, I just don't see things I find worth commenting that much. I've chimed in every time I've had something reasonable to offer.

I won't claim that my play has been particularly towny, self meta arguments are dumb. If you want a semi-random lynch of someone who is matching both their town- and scummetas and is not standing out enough, I guess I'm a fine choice. That's the method that landed me on liopoil, pretty much. I'm not scum though.

[Eevee]

I don't think my level of activity has been egregiously low for day 1.

[2.71828.....]

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Where have you been/what have you been doing, I guess.

Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

I haven't been VLA, if that's what you are asking? Just.. day 1, I just don't see things I find worth commenting that much. I've chimed in every time I've had something reasonable to offer.

I won't claim that my play has been particularly towny, self meta arguments are dumb. If you want a semi-random lynch of someone who is matching both their town- and scummetas and is not standing out enough, I guess I'm a fine choice. That's the method that landed me on liopoil, pretty much. I'm not scum though.

that seems very laissez faire

[yuma]

Ash is clearly faking his certainty to send us some sort of a message. The problem with artificially creating reads to send a message is that.. well, he is not being genuine, and if he is scum, he has all the motivation in the world to manipulate us into thinking otherwise.

I agree he is exaggerating his certainty to send us a message, but sadly I don't think we can really read much into the message. To me it's a very loud and distracting null-tell (that could help determining the alignments of other players once we get some flips and wagons, people often react to ash very strongly until they realize what he is doing).

and they certainly start realizing it once someone starts pointing it out...

[yuma]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

[yuma]

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

since when do we always let mail-mi live??

I can think of two prime examples... Pirates2 and GoT. Both games he had very scummy behavior and was let off the hook because it wasn't "egregious" and because it was apparently his meta... I think you could toss in Dynasty Warriors1 as well as he was allowed to live for a long time despite scummy behavior and was only killed because chairs shot him in the night.

But perhaps always is a bit of a stretch, but not by much of late. mail-mi used to be the mislynch now he is the survivalist of sorts...

[ashersky]

If we want random lurker eevee is our guy

Correct!

[yuma]

I'd appreciate an explanation. If this is because you think that we're making the mistake of lynching someone for lurking when it is only caused by IRL problems that they can't control. Fine.
Otherwise, I don't really get it. I'm pretty sure that's the reason though.

You are correct.

If someone presents a new case, or re-presents an old one I missed that is unrelated to the fact that liopoil has been posting less than the norm, I would listen and understand/accept people voting for those reasons, whether I agree or not.

I firmly believe the sanctity of IRL VLA needs to be defended (by not lynching for it, but also by not lying/manipulating the excuse) to keep these games as fun and open to all as possible.

Fair enough. And Liopoil, I know you've said some different things about this. I can understand the importance of Finals.
I guess I just question exactly how much time they take. But that's only me. It's quite possible that you're taking a huge number of units and need to be studying almost constantly in preparation. Or, I could even understand that the game is also a distraction, something going on in the back of your mind. At any rate, I don't want to be the one that kills someone just cause they were busy with school.
Ash and I , I think agree that we shouldn't lynch people for IRL and Finals are very important. However, we disagree as to the exact severity of time required. And that's fine. Please tell us if you really are completely swamped!

I'm not swamped, or really even close to that. I don't know why ashersky is giving me a pass. I agree with not questioning IRL reasons. I also think that if someone is going to have limited access they should post this in the V/LA thread either before or after the V/LA. And that in the V/LA thread there is no lying or stretching the truth allowed. I haven't posted there because I don't think that exams are an excuse for me in this case. sometimes exams are a reason for V/LA, for sure, and I would totally excuse lurking for someone else if they needed to study for exams a ton. In this case though, it isn't a huge deal.

This completely. I agree wish that RL VLA should be respected, but the onus is on the player to state a VLA. w/o that the player in question is totally up for being scrutinized and voted and lynched. It is why we have the VLA thread in the first place. As such I feel that ash's policy vote isn't justified and that irimichu isn't in the wrong...

and I do think that liopoil is someone I would vote for... but it isn't based off what others are voting him for, it is based off how he has responded to being put at L-2.

I said this in Toy Story speccy QT:

liopoil is looking scummy here in response. He is being too level headed, too calm (or rather appears to be forcing himself to be calm). Reminds me of how he reacted in Back to Basics, he was really trying to be rational and logical. As town I think he would be enraged and much more abrasive and difficult.

Here again he is very level headed and calm. The times he has been town and had suspicion on him I felt he was much more dynamic and enraged.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.10

战争来的风语

2.7... (2): Teproc, yuma
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (2): mail-mi, Lekkit
Ichimaru Gin (1): ashersky
Eevee (2): Robz888, liopoil
liopoil (4): Eevee，chairs, faust, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (1):2.7....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[Robz888]

and I do think that liopoil is someone I would vote for... but it isn't based off what others are voting him for, it is based off how he has responded to being put at L-2.

I said this in Toy Story speccy QT:

liopoil is looking scummy here in response. He is being too level headed, too calm (or rather appears to be forcing himself to be calm). Reminds me of how he reacted in Back to Basics, he was really trying to be rational and logical. As town I think he would be enraged and much more abrasive and difficult.

Here again he is very level headed and calm. The times he has been town and had suspicion on him I felt he was much more dynamic and enraged.

I kind of agree with this, I was just thinking something like this. I was just thinking that liopoil's recent statements make him less deserving of being lynched, but probably more likely to be scum for exactly that reason.

[liopoil]

I think that I'm only less levelheaded when I'm town and the case against me is terrible. In this game, the case against me isn't ridiculous, just wrong. In those other games, I was frustrated because the suspicion on me was totally unwarrented I thought, and so responded pretty heavily. I mean, how are you expecting me to react as town? should I be saying that it's absurd to vote for me for lurking?

[liopoil]

and yes, in toy story I was forcing myself to be calm, because I was freaking out that yuma flipped town.

[yuma]

Ok:

I am going to try to do my Galz deduction as mentioned before, again here is Galz with the main points:

Every town player there right now is trying too hard to finger scum. To catch them. That won't work d1. Flip it around. Don't look for that one good case for somebody being scum, look for reasons to eliminate people. Give them reasons to be town - or at least a reason not to lynch. PoE down based on not who's "most likely" to be scum, but instead by eliminating those "less likely" to be scum.

The trick is making reasonable arguments for certain people to be removed from lynch candidacy. Arguments that most agree on. Post count alone gets them a d1 pass from me. Can scum post a lot? Yes, but it's harder. And while one might be scum, there's a very, very low likelihood that two are. So look elsewhere.

So I am looking for least likely to be scum:

Right off the bat I am removing: yuma (myself), Ichimaru Gin (new player, this I think is essential in the development of our community and like Teproc said, newer players are extremely hard to read day1 cause very little meta is established), Voltaire (his stances on claiming and his presence I think removes him), chairs (the early day stuff... but he has been noticably absent of late... chairs you posted more before you had Internet!!!)

So that leaves: Eevee, Robz, Teproc, faust, 2.7, liopoil, mail-mi, Lekkit, ashersky

Post count time:

1. Voltaire - 103
2. Robz888 - 56
3. mail-mi - 36
4. Chairs - 34
5. Ashersky - 78
6. Yuma - 53
7. Ichimaru Gin - 31
8. Lekkit - 25
9. Liopoil - 32
10. Teproc - 65
11. 2.7 - 89
12. Eevee - 31
13. Faust - 42

Now I am using this post count with a grain of salt... because well as people have said it doesn't really reflect a lot. Like Lekkit isn't low in quality. 2.7 has obviously increased his posting dramatically... so really based off this the only player I am removing is ashersky and maybe teproc? Add in how they are playing the game, ash can do anything as any alignment, but I do feel like he is being extremely aggressive here and seems more town, enough for me to remove him. Teproc--well f.ds still hasn't seen him as mafia, but from everything I can tell he seems quite similar to how he was in GoT except more confident and sure of himself now that he is more familiar with the community.

So now I am left with:

Liopoil, Robz, Eevee, Lekkit, faust, 2.7, mail-mi:

Robz - well I think Robz should be removed just because he is so often the night kill... No guys I am not using the argument I hate that people use on me or Robz. Not at all, because I think everyone--myself included automatically becomes more likely to be scum after surviving nights, as long as mafia aren't getting killed off... So it isn't that I think Robz becomes more scummy than others the longer he survives, but rather that he tends to get night killed regardless of alignment... it just happens with him. So why use up a lynch when we can let someone else give us his alignment later on in the game. If he is town, I hope he isn't shot at... but well, he is so often a threat that it just happens with him.

And I don't really feel comfortable removing anyone else. Lekkit would be my closest to a removal, but not quite... maybe faust as well (and I don't think he is getting lynched anyways after such little response from me and everyone else in regard to the case ash and 2.7 had on him...)

From this point I want to try to find scummier players out of: liopoil, eevee, 2.7 and mail-mi and maybe faust, lekkit.

[yuma]

I think that I'm only less levelheaded when I'm town and the case against me is terrible. In this game, the case against me isn't ridiculous, just wrong. In those other games, I was frustrated because the suspicion on me was totally unwarrented I thought, and so responded pretty heavily. I mean, how are you expecting me to react as town? should I be saying that it's absurd to vote for me for lurking?

I guess that is a fair point.

I am trying to remember... how did you react in ModernCommunity. I modded that game and can't remember that well.... you kinda came under the same suspicion for lurking (and had to sub out)... does anyone remember?

[liopoil]

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

I like this idea. The actual percentage is about 27%, but that hardly matters. I think we should do this, I think it's a better form of popsquiz.