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[2.71828.....]

Oops, robz had 12 posts. My bad

Sub-10 posters over the last two days:
Voltaire
Robz
Mail-mi
Chairs
Ichimaru
Lekkit
Liopoil
Eevee

I will lynch from these players unless something crazy happens.

So unvote

[2.71828.....]

Right now I will vote: lekkit.

He is a very, right? I just haven't played with him. His case on Voltaire was totally baseless. I asked him about the holes I saw, he responded with some quotes, but no original language. 

So
1) putting out a pretty poor case against someone but making it look super fancy with all the quotes.
2) not defending it when questioned.
3) lurking

[2.71828.....]

I meant to say, he is a vet. Not a very.

[yuma]

Let me try again... why are you talking about this hijacking thing...? why is it significant for you to talk about it?

It doesn't really involve you, as it was directed toward ashersky. And it wasn't really an accusation at ashersky as it was me explaining why I was talking about faust--as he perceived I was defending him. So why is it important to you?

the hijacking language is what got me. Even while you were sick, while you had no home internet, and all that you posted more than most people in this game.  I really really REALLY don't like lurkers/people who quit playing. It detracts from the game and enjoyment of everyone.  And I also felt you were unjustly accusing ashersky for something he is not doing. He is actually posting.  The thing is, the more you talk about why Faust is not scum without any sort of case against anyone else (I guess you have me) what does ash have to talk about? Say you come out with a case against insomniac. (Used as a place holder and because everyone else is sleeping through this game) insomniac has said this, that, and the other and you find him super scummy.  You state why you think that person is scummier, you garner some support, and get people talking. Awesome. That hasn't happened. Because there is no other case with anyone being scummier.

but basically I thought the hijacking language was unfair sure to the low activity from anyone else. You can't hijack something no one else owns

Ok.

First some points...

Everyone can play the amount they want to play. I am with you, I want others to post more. But the rules of the game are to post once every 24 hours. Few players, if any are actually breaking this rule. If they are ask for them to be prodded. Quitting playing is always bad, but no one appears to have quit. Some people just post less than you and me. And that is ok. They might get lynched more often because of it, but hey... that is the game.... Just like a person in RL mafia who is quiet is also likely to get lynched... I am thrilled you are posting a lot and have been a great addition to the forum games community but not everyone can post as much as you and me. It took me a while to get to this point of accepting people who post less, but you have to.

As for the hijacking part. He did... maybe we have a different interpretation of hijacking, but ash repeatedly over and over again, any time he had anything to say at all it was something along the lines of "instead of doing X, let's lynch faust."

here, here, here, here, here, here, here

that is a lot, especially as I was rereading the faust case and ash specifically... these posts just keep kinda saying the same things over and over...

and again, keep in mind that the term "hijack" was used in response to this from ash:

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

where he asks why I am defending faust so heavily... And the answer is... I am responding to the huge number of posts that you are making about faust (the hijack), why are you surprised that I am writing a huge post about him... you have been talking non-stop about him.

So maybe you see me saying ash hijacking the thread is terribly bad and anti-town. No, I don't really think it is all that bad, so maybe I should have used a less harsh sounding word, but when I get criticized for giving opinion on something that ash obviously wants people to talk about I am going to get a little harsh....

And I still don't know why we are having this conversation in the first place. What do you want from me out of it?

[chairs]

vote: liopoil.  I like Robz's case on him.

[yuma]

Right now I will vote: lekkit.

He is a very, right? I just haven't played with him. His case on Voltaire was totally baseless. I asked him about the holes I saw, he responded with some quotes, but no original language. 

So
1) putting out a pretty poor case against someone but making it look super fancy with all the quotes.
2) not defending it when questioned.
3) lurking

ash you can vote for 2.7 now...

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

also this is kinda... blackmaily?..... and I don't really like it regardless of ash's alignment. In my eyes it basically says "2.7 better keep his vote on faust or else I will turn around and vote for him! So he better not move it!"

It puts 2.7 in a really bad position in regard to ash I think.

Sure it is.  But basically, he's all I've got as far as support goes.

[2.71828.....]

[Stuff]

With all that said, I think Voltaire has done some things that are not really pro-town. But that does not always make you scummy. However expressing reads with so much determination as he has, backing away in the next post, and then going back to the super strong scum reads doesn't sound good in my ears. So far I think Voltaire is the scummiest around, and I will give him my vote.

Vote: Voltaire

while I agree that Voltaire had done some anti towny things, he has not flip flopped as lekkit implied. What made it seem worse was the way lekkit quoted some stuff, then went back out of order chronologically to show "inconsistencies" that Voltaire displayed. Then when I questioned him about it, he just replied writing the same things again, but not going down on record himself. Hiding behind quotes. Scummy.

[2.71828.....]

Right now I will vote: lekkit.

He is a very, right? I just haven't played with him. His case on Voltaire was totally baseless. I asked him about the holes I saw, he responded with some quotes, but no original language. 

So
1) putting out a pretty poor case against someone but making it look super fancy with all the quotes.
2) not defending it when questioned.
3) lurking

ash you can vote for 2.7 now...

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

also this is kinda... blackmaily?..... and I don't really like it regardless of ash's alignment. In my eyes it basically says "2.7 better keep his vote on faust or else I will turn around and vote for him! So he better not move it!"

It puts 2.7 in a really bad position in regard to ash I think.

Sure it is.  But basically, he's all I've got as far as support goes.

yeah, when I read that I was not happy with the position ash put me in, but at some point my vote was probably going to come off Faust. I have been brewing about lekkit for a while now. Right now seemed like a good enough time to really voice my concerns

[2.71828.....]

1) you are right, no one is being the rules. No one has to be prodded.
2) in all my posting and agreeing with ash (although not with his methods, he had been posting strangely) I had not noticed all those occurrences of "hijacking" that you pointed out.  I agree. That is a little excessive and curious as to just how frequently he kept it up.
3) I was mostly venting about the lack of content today. Hijack was basically just a buzz-word that set me off. So I apologize if it seemed like it was directed at me. Our even at other players. It is just frustrating to not even have a single wagon at all.
4) I am done talking about this if you are. If you have any more concerns feel free to bring them up. I am not trying to avoid it, but would like to move on past my little rant to something more productive.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.7

你 好！

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (1): ashersky
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (2): Robz888, Eevee, chairs
lekkit(1): 2.7...

Not Voting (1):Liopoil

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.8

又 你 好！

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (1): ashersky
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (3): Robz888, Eevee， chairs
lekkit(1): 2.7...

Not Voting (1):Liopoil

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[2.71828.....]

I still don't see why anyone is voting Voltaire. I can understand most of the other votes. I mean, who doesn't want to sheep robz? I am just surprised everyone else hasn't joined in the sheeping.

[2.71828.....]

I still don't see why anyone is voting Voltaire. I can understand most of the other votes. I mean, who doesn't want to sheep robz? I am just surprised everyone else hasn't joined in the sheeping.

and the other votes all have something to them. Although I forget the mall-mi thing

[ashersky]

The Lekkit vote is terrible.  Lekkit has never been a huge poster, but he has posted thoughtfully when he can.  I see no issues with Lekkit.

2.7's reason for unvoting was just frustration, I'm pretty sure, and he'll be back on scum!faust soon.

Plus, I can't vote him now, given yuma's called it blackmaily.

[Lekkit]

[Stuff]

With all that said, I think Voltaire has done some things that are not really pro-town. But that does not always make you scummy. However expressing reads with so much determination as he has, backing away in the next post, and then going back to the super strong scum reads doesn't sound good in my ears. So far I think Voltaire is the scummiest around, and I will give him my vote.

Vote: Voltaire

while I agree that Voltaire had done some anti towny things, he has not flip flopped as lekkit implied. What made it seem worse was the way lekkit quoted some stuff, then went back out of order chronologically to show "inconsistencies" that Voltaire displayed. Then when I questioned him about it, he just replied writing the same things again, but not going down on record himself. Hiding behind quotes. Scummy.

First of all, I did not imply that he has flip flopped. I said he had. Because I think he did. Secondly there was one quote in that post that was out of order. Twice you've made it sound like it the entire post was just a mish mash of quotes in random order. It is not. There are however two points I wanted to make, so that's why there is a jump back after a while. If I had been rereading two people, I would probably have put all the quotes from one person together and the other person's quote together. It's easier to follow one thing at ta time than two. And thirdly, what did you want me to say? I think it's pretty obvious that we interpret the stuff Voltaire said differently. I gave you the quotes where I think he flip flopped, you said you didn't read it that way.

Right now I will vote: lekkit.

He is a very, right? I just haven't played with him. His case on Voltaire was totally baseless. I asked him about the holes I saw, he responded with some quotes, but no original language. 

So
1) putting out a pretty poor case against someone but making it look super fancy with all the quotes.
2) not defending it when questioned.
3) lurking

I agree with ashersky here, that vote is pretty terrible. The "holes you saw" was actually one hole, or you didn't mention the rest. And that was basically you not interpreting his posts the same way I do.

So
1) Trying to get the game going by going back and reread. Finding what I see as inconsistencies and getting them out there so that people can see them.
2) Not really being questioned about it.
3) Yeah, I haven't been super active. However, I'm not usually the player that posts fifteen posts in a row because nobody else is doing it. And I'm pretty sure there are some people here that can actually vouche for that. One of the reasons why I stopped playing here before was actually due to people only counting posts and not really contents of the posts. But in this case I'm not really saying you're entirely wrong. I'm just saying that I will probably never be the one to posts a lot of small posts.

[faust]

Wow, zuma is defending me - it's a whole new feeling.

Anyway, ashersky lynch is not going to happen, right? So let me vote: liopoil. Not because I think the case is particularly strong (I don't see a really convincing case right now), but because he is lurking and because I have a town read on Robz, who started this wagon.

[2.71828.....]

ok.  deep breath. 

unvote

Lekkit, thanks for your very well reasoned response to my weak case against you.  I am very guilty of not recognizing other people's posting habits and realizing that not everyone is a recent college grad with basically nothing on his schedule and thus has an inordinate amount of time to spend on mafia.  Lekkit has not posted much, but it is true that when he has posted he actually put down reads (when hardly anyone else was) and even though I disagreed with you, it is common for town to disagree with town. (especially early)  Now he has come back with a good response and there is no reason to vote Lekkit.

[faust]

Wow, zuma is defending me - it's a whole new feeling.

Anyway, ashersky lynch is not going to happen, right? So let me vote: liopoil. Not because I think the case is particularly strong (I don't see a really convincing case right now), but because he is lurking and because I have a town read on Robz, who started this wagon.

zuma=yuma, of course.

[faust]

Well, it's nice that ashersky finally gives me a post I can respond to.

You are correct that the quote you pulled from faust is the one that started it all.

Here are things I see happening in that post:

--he is rolefishing.  Talking about VTs and claims and "here's what ash probably is" is all rolefishing.  That's scummy.
--in is point #1, he says "...he's an okay mislynch."  That wording is specifically what tipped me off.  That, expanded, is "He is an okay mislynch."  But why, I ask, is decided on the okay mislynch of the day a town thing to do, especially so early in the game?
--he ignores the "ash is a PR and knew it was safe to claim" possibility, which is clearly a possibility, but he ignores it.
--he gives zero reasons for why lynching ashersky could be bad for town.  He even states that "[if] ash himself is a VT...he's an okay mislynch."

As far as why I fleshed out the argument, I only did because people kept hounding me.  That's the only reason.  As for "I don't think scum is ever that blantant...or that easily caught" goes, you are wrong.  See any game I'm scum for examples.

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

Rolefishing: how is what I did rolefishing? Rolefishing is defined as trying to get town to out PRs, yes? Do you mean I tried to get you to claim? Because I'm not that naive. I know you're a good player and I can't just say "ash is VT" and you come out yelling "but I'm a PR!!!"

Mislynch: I say you are an okay mislynch in the case where you are town. I think everyone should always consider the scenario where their suspect actually is town (I see that you disagree, thinking I am 100% scum). I considered it, and concluded it was worth the risk. It's not that I actually BELIEVE you're a mislynch, but of course, the possibility is there.

Third point: I did not see that. If you were a PR, all you would have known is that PRs have names, so how could you possibly have known that claiming doesn't out PRs?

And, lastly: Now I need to give reasons why lynching someone I suspect could be bad for town? Okay, every single one of my cases will come with a disclaimer: "Of course, X could be town, possibly even a PR. In that case, lynching X would be bad." in the future. Like, did YOU give any reasons why lynching me could be bad for town?

I should make clear once again: I think the scum narrative for ash is stronger (town is talking about flavor claiming, ash has a fake claim and just thinks "hey, let's just go ahead and claim for town cred!") than the town narrative.

[Ichimaru Gin]

For now, I'm going to vote: Liopoil
Explanation to come soon (in a couple hours). I just think it doesn't make much sense to keep my vote on someone when it doesn't look like they're going to get lynched. We need a lynch today, so let's get one!

[liopoil]

well dang, sorry guys. It's exam week, but I still should have contributed more than I have been. catching up. Serious thank you for putting me at L-2, so I have a motive to contribute... because lynching town is bad. It really should not work that way, but it did.

e: I get being frustrated at lurkers. Once upon a time, I actually was near the top of the post count a few games in a row, and I was frustrated at lurkers too. But now that I've been there, I realize it's just something we have to deal with. Is it bad for town? yes. Should it happen? no. Will it inevitably happen every game? yes. We're playing a game on the internet, and while everyone made a commitment in signing up, they aren't really committed in the sense that nothing terrible happens to them if they lurk.

That said, it still is rude of me and others to put this game to the side and not contribute. I'm going to try to get back into this game now, something that I've done successfully a few times as both alignments.

[Teproc]

I believe this is L-1, so let's let liopoil some time to respond here.

PPE : Here he is !

[Teproc]

Actually it's L-2, never mind me.

[liopoil]

re: those voting for me...

The case on me is pretty simple. So is the defense. I think this quote sums it all up:

Vote: liopoil

Now that we can talk about Toy Story mafia, my scum partner liopoil did a good job in later days, but I think he really struggled to make early contributions as scum. He is struggling with that here, too. In fact his most recent contribution was only to point out that he doesn't have any contributions.

not quite, I said something about ashersky's meta after that I think. but I can't exactly argue that I've been contributing today, yes. However, I think I've been struggling to make early contributions in any game as of late. Just really don't have much of anything that I find worth of note.

pretty simple. I'm lurking, something I did as scum last game. And that I have done as town previously. I don't think it speaks to my alignment much.

Now, you could make the case that "aha! he's scum who's intentionally lurking because he thinks he can get away with it!"

I mean, that's fair, I don't know what to say to that. There's nothing I can do.

I just ask that everyone voting me reads this, and if they still think I'm the best lynch, oh well.

In the meantime, I'm going to catch up. I won't be able to do it all right now, I have an exam soon. But later today I will.

[Robz888]

Uh, I think the case against you, liopoil, is just a bit more sophisticated than that. It's not just that "you're lurking." Lots of people are lurking for various reasons. I've actually had very little time for this game, so.

The case against you is that, well you're low post count and not much content. AND I think this is something scum liopoil does on Day 1. I remember in Toy Story Mafia wishing you could have a little bit more meatier content on Day 1, worrying that you could and should be the obvious lynch on "lynch the lurker whose posts are most strained to be contributions" basis.

Later, I think you did really get into the game and do a great job. And I think as town, even when you are a lurker, it's not quite like this.