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[yuma]

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

also this is kinda... blackmaily?..... and I don't really like it regardless of ash's alignment. In my eyes it basically says "2.7 better keep his vote on faust or else I will turn around and vote for him! So he better not move it!"

It puts 2.7 in a really bad position in regard to ash I think.

[ashersky]

Looking at faust vs 2.7/ashersky

So this appears to be the post that started it all. It is his first post of the game and I'll quote it for full reference:

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

Followed immediately by a vote from ashersky:

This is all that ashersky says about it for a long, long time until pressed.... he just keeps kinda repeating over and over that faust is certainly scum... and I just don't see it ash, I don't. It is like you are seeing something that I am not. I am not saying I agree with his logic, but given what faust knew if he is town I don't think it is a horrible thing to surmise... And is easily something I could see town doing and coming to that conclusion.

Once this argument picks up steam again....

The newest piece of info we get is ash saying faust is scrambing but this comes with zero evidence.

And then we start getting into it a bit more... why did it take so long to flesh out this argument ash? And I still don't really see anything super, super significant here. Like I kinda get what ash is saying... town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to lynch town. But I don't think scum is ever that blatant about it or that easily caught.

Really I think the case on faust is being overly exaggerated by ashersky, regardless of faust's alignment. To what purpose I am not sure. If ash is town... over confidence? a ploy? if ash is scum.... well crazy ash is town ash so meta manipulation? or if ash is scum with faust epic bussing on the most minute point ever? Wouldn't put it past him, but right now I think this is likely town!ash overselling a case on town!faust would be my gut read of the situation....

You are correct that the quote you pulled from faust is the one that started it all.

Here are things I see happening in that post:

--he is rolefishing.  Talking about VTs and claims and "here's what ash probably is" is all rolefishing.  That's scummy.
--in is point #1, he says "...he's an okay mislynch."  That wording is specifically what tipped me off.  That, expanded, is "He is an okay mislynch."  But why, I ask, is decided on the okay mislynch of the day a town thing to do, especially so early in the game?
--he ignores the "ash is a PR and knew it was safe to claim" possibility, which is clearly a possibility, but he ignores it.
--he gives zero reasons for why lynching ashersky could be bad for town.  He even states that "[if] ash himself is a VT...he's an okay mislynch."

As far as why I fleshed out the argument, I only did because people kept hounding me.  That's the only reason.  As for "I don't think scum is ever that blantant...or that easily caught" goes, you are wrong.  See any game I'm scum for examples.

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

[ashersky]

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

also this is kinda... blackmaily?..... and I don't really like it regardless of ash's alignment. In my eyes it basically says "2.7 better keep his vote on faust or else I will turn around and vote for him! So he better not move it!"

It puts 2.7 in a really bad position in regard to ash I think.

Sure it is.  But basically, he's all I've got as far as support goes.

At this point, I believe the end game for D1 is lynch faust or lynch me.  And lynching me definitely hurts the town, regardless of scum!faust's argument that we should try to mislynch town on D1.

[ashersky]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

[yuma]

As for "I don't think scum is ever that blantant...or that easily caught" goes, you are wrong.  See any game I'm scum for examples.

That doesn't work. You are you and faust is faust. We aren't talking about the possibility of you being scum, we are talking about the possibilities of faust being scum. And even if we were talking about you it doesn't work... Ash you have never, ever, ever been so blatant as scum to come out and say "Heyz Guyz I'd sure like lots to mislynch somebody toooday, lez just give up on hunting dem scums. Whatcha guyz thinks of that?" which to me is what you are saying faust did. I refuse to believe that scum can just be magically caught that easily. You would be morbidly offended if you thought we could catch you that easily as scum yes?

Aha! This is basically what I don't like about it, I figured it out... You think it is a scumslip... you haven't called it a scumslip, but it is yes? You think faust slipped and showed his colors by saying that you were an ok mislynch?

Well.... let's just be honest here. If you are a VT, you are an ok mislynch as far as mislynches go. Mislynches aren't ever ideal for town, I agree and we shouldn't be gunning for them, but I don't think faust is gunning for one. I think he is saying ash has a good chance of flipping scum, but if he doesn't he will probably flip VT... and I think that is an OK thing to say. I don't know if I agree with his logic, and it isn't exaclty my favorite way to approach scumhunting, but it isn't this surefire case that you are making it out to be.

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched, so I do feel the need to go back, look at the situation and try and figure out if what you are saying has merit and I think it doesn't. I don't think that is defending and I don't know why you feel the need to accuse anyone that thinks differently than you do to be "defending" someone you obviously think is scum

[yuma]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

Am I voting for you? Have I said I found you super scummy?

And why in the world would your dead body help us understand faust any better? I don't get your logic at all ash.

[ashersky]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

Am I voting for you? Have I said I found you super scummy?

And why in the world would your dead body help us understand faust any better? I don't get your logic at all ash.

When you have mod confirmation I'm town, it lets you know that what I'm saying is honest and, to me, absolutely in town's best interest.

[yuma]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

Am I voting for you? Have I said I found you super scummy?

And why in the world would your dead body help us understand faust any better? I don't get your logic at all ash.

When you have mod confirmation I'm town, it lets you know that what I'm saying is honest and, to me, absolutely in town's best interest.

Sure. but that doesn't mean you are right. Far from it. This is day1. Somewhere recently you said your reads get so much better as the days go on. Everyone has bad reads day1,  you aren't an exception my friend, nor am I. So if you die, nothing changes--well not nothing, but certainly nothing significant changes--in my read toward faust. It just doesn't. Allowing it to change so willy-nilly would be extremely irresponsible.

As an example... in Toy Story at the end of day1 you were pretty convinced (maybe not as convinced as you are here, but pretty sure, sure enough to make definitive statements yes?) I was scum and then you died night1. It was mod confirmed you were town. Had town listened to you and your read and just based off that read they would have lynched me, mislynched me. Because I was town and your read was bad. This isn't a criticism, it is a fact. Your read on me was bad. Mine were really bad last game too... So again, your read on faust, even if/when you die will do very little to change my read on faust.... because there would be no proof that your read this game is/was accurate.

And the whole reason I am saying this is to say that I don't think the end result of today needs to be your lynch or faust's lynch. There are other paths to take that I think are better.

[ashersky]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

Am I voting for you? Have I said I found you super scummy?

And why in the world would your dead body help us understand faust any better? I don't get your logic at all ash.

When you have mod confirmation I'm town, it lets you know that what I'm saying is honest and, to me, absolutely in town's best interest.

Sure. but that doesn't mean you are right. Far from it. This is day1. Somewhere recently you said your reads get so much better as the days go on. Everyone has bad reads day1,  you aren't an exception my friend, nor am I. So if you die, nothing changes--well not nothing, but certainly nothing significant changes--in my read toward faust. It just doesn't. Allowing it to change so willy-nilly would be extremely irresponsible.

As an example... in Toy Story at the end of day1 you were pretty convinced (maybe not as convinced as you are here, but pretty sure, sure enough to make definitive statements yes?) I was scum and then you died night1. It was mod confirmed you were town. Had town listened to you and your read and just based off that read they would have lynched me, mislynched me. Because I was town and your read was bad. This isn't a criticism, it is a fact. Your read on me was bad. Mine were really bad last game too... So again, your read on faust, even if/when you die will do very little to change my read on faust.... because there would be no proof that your read this game is/was accurate.

And the whole reason I am saying this is to say that I don't think the end result of today needs to be your lynch or faust's lynch. There are other paths to take that I think are better.

Fair and reasoned statements, all of which support my "not lynching yuma' stance.  Doesn't change my read on faust, though.

If we're not lynching faust, and we aren't lynching me (which at least faust wants, since he prefers to lynch town than scum), who are we lynching?

I've given my thoughts on each of the cases presented so far.  I'm not convinced on any, just as you aren't convinced on mine.  So what do we do?

[ashersky]

We're looking for one of the following, right?

2-man mafia team
2-man mafia team + 1 SK
3-man mafia team
3-man mafia team + 1 SK

So we're searching for 2, 3, or 4 scum out of 13 total players.

The chance of any one player being scum, without a post being made, is 2/12, 3/12, or 4/12, from my perspective as town.  That means 17%, 25%, or 33%, basically.

25% is the middle, there, and a fair assessment, since the chances are 2, 3, 3, and 4.

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

[yuma]

Fair and reasoned statements, all of which support my "not lynching yuma' stance.  Doesn't change my read on faust, though.

If we're not lynching faust, and we aren't lynching me (which at least faust wants, since he prefers to lynch town than scum), who are we lynching?

I've given my thoughts on each of the cases presented so far.  I'm not convinced on any, just as you aren't convinced on mine.  So what do we do?

Keep working toward a lynch? We still have a fair amount of time.... 2ish days?

I for one still need to fully catch up, and figure out a handful of players that I don't know much about

[2.71828.....]

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched

I just want to point something out here. Yuma, I know you were v/la for a majority of D1 so you might not have felt this as much. But this game was dead. Like no real activity until I picked up on Faust and started bugging people for their opinions. Now, I know I am no IC that has the authority to really do that, but we had to start somewhere. I am in no way hijacking the game. I just really want people to post. Something. Anything. Might as well be about what I saw as my top scum read. You can disagree with me. You can argue with me. You can call me scum for pushing you for information. You can even put out cases against alternative scum. Just do something. And you have. I am happy with your contributions. And teproc has. And a couple other people. But what about the say, 8 null reads that you have because they aren't posting? I have null reads on the following people due to lack of content: eevee, mail-mi, lekkit (actually scummy on him because of his Voltaire case but he fits with the non-posters), [/b]Ichimaru, chairs, robz, liopoil[/b]. Some of them have weighed in a bit on the Faust case basically to say they don't like it, but have done nothing else. At all. I can't do this right now because I am on a kindle, but go back to your post count and figure out who has the lowest post count between that time and now and vote them. I am not trying to hijack anything, but there is nothing to hijack. NOTHING AT ALL. No content. Everyone is lurking. Sure flavor talk may have put a bad taste in your mouth. Get over it. And post.

So come on. Build a case against me for posting. Lynch me for posting. I will be happy to die D1 if that means we can even get one wagon started. The way the day is going, I doubt that though.  Our build a case against someone else. I don't care. I am all for lynching a little right now. We can get scum!Faust anytime.

[2.71828.....]

Rent done. Sorry I messed up the bold there a bit.

[2.71828.....]

Rant done. Sorry I messed up the bold there a bit.

ugh auto correct

[2.71828.....]

And more typos that I am noticing now in the rant. Sorry about that, but you get my point

[yuma]

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched

I just want to point something out here. Yuma, I know you were v/la for a majority of D1 so you might not have felt this as much. But this game was dead. Like no real activity until I picked up on Faust and started bugging people for their opinions. Now, I know I am no IC that has the authority to really do that, but we had to start somewhere. I am in no way hijacking the game. I just really want people to post.

I never said you hijacked the thread. I said ashersky did.

[2.71828.....]

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched

I just want to point something out here. Yuma, I know you were v/la for a majority of D1 so you might not have felt this as much. But this game was dead. Like no real activity until I picked up on Faust and started bugging people for their opinions. Now, I know I am no IC that has the authority to really do that, but we had to start somewhere. I am in no way hijacking the game. I just really want people to post.

I never said you hijacked the thread. I said ashersky did.

well he commented extra because I pushed him to. So he hijacked it through me

[2.71828.....]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

somehow I don't think that will happen.....no one seems to be picking up our little wagon.  Pretty anti-town of them if you ask me.  Yuma was complaining about no wagons, we could have had one right here but instead they try to build one on liopoil?

he didn't really start posting until after right here. What, 7 hours ago. A real hijack

[yuma]

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched

I just want to point something out here. Yuma, I know you were v/la for a majority of D1 so you might not have felt this as much. But this game was dead. Like no real activity until I picked up on Faust and started bugging people for their opinions. Now, I know I am no IC that has the authority to really do that, but we had to start somewhere. I am in no way hijacking the game. I just really want people to post.

I never said you hijacked the thread. I said ashersky did.

well he commented extra because I pushed him to. So he hijacked it through me

okay.... so what are you saying? I am not accusing ash of anything for hijacking the thread... when I said that I was responding to him asking why I was "defending" faust.

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched, so I do feel the need to go back, look at the situation and try and figure out if what you are saying has merit and I think it doesn't. I don't think that is defending and I don't know why you feel the need to accuse anyone that thinks differently than you do to be "defending" someone you obviously think is scum

Why is this significant to you?

[2.71828.....]

Could you reword the question? Are you asking why I think it is important to note that you are "defending" Faust? I am not quite sure what you are asking

[yuma]

Let me try again... why are you talking about this hijacking thing...? why is it significant for you to talk about it?

It doesn't really involve you, as it was directed toward ashersky. And it wasn't really an accusation at ashersky as it was me explaining why I was talking about faust--as he perceived I was defending him. So why is it important to you?

[ashersky]

Don't know the last time we had one of these:

Voltaire - 92
2.7 - 71
Ashersky - 70
Teproc - 63
Yuma - 47
Robz888 - 45
Faust - 39
mail-mi - 33
Chairs - 33
Eevee - 25
Lekkit - 24
Ichimaru Gin - 22
Liopoil - 17

[2.71828.....]

Let me try again... why are you talking about this hijacking thing...? why is it significant for you to talk about it?

It doesn't really involve you, as it was directed toward ashersky. And it wasn't really an accusation at ashersky as it was me explaining why I was talking about faust--as he perceived I was defending him. So why is it important to you?

the hijacking language is what got me. Even while you were sick, while you had no home internet, and all that you posted more than most people in this game.  I really really REALLY don't like lurkers/people who quit playing. It detracts from the game and enjoyment of everyone.  And I also felt you were unjustly accusing ashersky for something he is not doing. He is actually posting.  The thing is, the more you talk about why Faust is not scum without any sort of case against anyone else (I guess you have me) what does ash have to talk about? Say you come out with a case against insomniac. (Used as a place holder and because everyone else is sleeping through this game) insomniac has said this, that, and the other and you find him super scummy.  You state why you think that person is scummier, you garner some support, and get people talking. Awesome. That hasn't happened. Because there is no other case with anyone being scummier.

but basically I thought the hijacking language was unfair sure to the low activity from anyone else. You can't hijack something no one else owns

[2.71828.....]

The last one:

this does include pre-game posts

1. Voltaire - 83
2. Robz888 - 33
3. mail-mi - 24
4. Chairs - 29
5. Ashersky - 46
6. Yuma - 23
7. Ichimaru Gin - 17
8. Lekkit - 18
9. Liopoil - 11
10. Teproc - 47
11. 2.7 - 21
12. Eevee - 18
13. Faust - 21

[2.71828.....]

Sub-10 posters over the last two days:
Voltaire
Robz
Mail-mi
Chairs
Ichimaru
Lekkit
Liopoil
Eevee

I will lynch from these players unless something crazy happens.

So unvote