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[2.71828.....]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

But, while are at it, you clearly still believe Faust is scum.  Could you outline your reasons again for clarity?  I don't believe you ever really laid out point by point why you think he is scum

[ashersky]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

somehow I don't think that will happen.....no one seems to be picking up our little wagon.  Pretty anti-town of them if you ask me.  Yuma was complaining about no wagons, we could have had one right here but instead they try to build one on liopoil?

Yeah.  The norm is no one listens to me until it's too late, though.

The truth of the matter is, Faust was pushing for a Zd1 mislynch, on purpose.  Then, he said he was doing it (that admission was likely a mistake).  Literally, only scum works purposefully for a mislynch with that goal in mind.

I called him out on it, so now he's been forced to continue the "trying to mislynch is pro-town!" narrative, which is bonkers.  He literally said he prefers to lynch a 60% town chance instead of a 50% town chance.  Who wants to lynch town?  Scum.

[ashersky]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

But, while are at it, you clearly still believe Faust is scum.  Could you outline your reasons again for clarity?  I don't believe you ever really laid out point by point why you think he is scum

This was PPE, but I think I a answered it anyway.

[Voltaire]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

Please state, as clearly as possible, the case on faust. "faust is scum" is not a case.

[Eevee]

I do think ash is wrong about the severity of a mislynch not mattering at all, of course it does. I could see myself wanting to lynch someone who in my eyes is less likely to be scum, must have happened more than once in fact.

[Voltaire]

I called him out on it, so now he's been forced to continue the "trying to mislynch is pro-town!" narrative, which is bonkers.  He literally said he prefers to lynch a 60% town chance instead of a 50% town chance.  Who wants to lynch town?  Scum.

You're the one being bonkers here. faust gave an entirely reasonable explanation for this.

[Teproc]

ash is being ridiculous. I don't know what it means as far as his alignment goes though. Probably townish, because [REDACTED].

[ashersky]

I called him out on it, so now he's been forced to continue the "trying to mislynch is pro-town!" narrative, which is bonkers.  He literally said he prefers to lynch a 60% town chance instead of a 50% town chance.  Who wants to lynch town?  Scum.

You're the one being bonkers here. faust gave an entirely reasonable explanation for this.

No he didn't.  What "reasonable explanation" has he given for why it is better to lynch town than scum?

Here are lynch options, as present:

town
scum

That's it.  2 options.  I'm arguing that "scum" is the option we should lynch.  Faust (and it seems, you) is arguing that we should lynch "town."  Role has nothing to do with alignment, so no BS "he might be a PR" crap.  We should LYNCH SCUM, NOT TOWN.

There is no reasonable explanation for why someone wants to lynch TOWN instead of lynching SCUM.  (I'm sure there's an edgecase involving multiball and endgames, but for the purposes of today, this is true.)

[ashersky]

I do think ash is wrong about the severity of a mislynch not mattering at all, of course it does. I could see myself wanting to lynch someone who in my eyes is less likely to be scum, must have happened more than once in fact.

You mean faust?

I'm the one arguing AGAINST mislynches, because mislynches are BAD.  Faust is arguing that mislynches are PREFERRED to scum lynches.

[Teproc]

Come on ash, you know this is not what faust is saying.

[Eevee]

I think faust's point is that if player A is the town cop 40% of the time and  a mafia goon 60% of the time and player B is a VT 50% of the time and a mafia goon 50% of the time, B is the better lynch even though A is more likely to be scum.

 Assuming that's what he is saying, I and I think most others as well, agree with him.

[mail-mi]

I think faust's point is that if player A is the town cop 40% of the time and  a mafia goon 60% of the time and player B is a VT 50% of the time and a mafia goon 50% of the time, B is the better lynch even though A is more likely to be scum.

 Assuming that's what he is saying, I and I think most others as well, agree with him.

that's what I get from faust. If that's the basis of the case, I disagree.

[mail-mi]

I think faust's point is that if player A is the town cop 40% of the time and  a mafia goon 60% of the time and player B is a VT 50% of the time and a mafia goon 50% of the time, B is the better lynch even though A is more likely to be scum.

 Assuming that's what he is saying, I and I think most others as well, agree with him.

that's what I get from faust. If that's the basis of the case, I disagree.

and by that I mean I disagree with the case.

[yuma]

Actually town doesn't care, or shouldn't care, about the post count. You should be active, but the post count is not that great at measuring activity. Like, Voltaire has not been twice as active as anyone else in the game for example (he's been active obviously, but not that much more than other people).

I don't get how yuma could have thought that whole post was a joke to be honest, it was pretty clear to me that it only referred to the hat thing.

Exactly... so why does 2.7 care his post count was low and why did he especially start posting once I specifically called him out for being low?

I thought the whole post was a joke, but see that I may have misread it... as 2.7 was quoting Robz I thought he was sarcastically calling out robz for saying that there wasn't anything to talk about by saying that there was "I mean there was the whole claim thing" "then the chairs thing" and was basically saying "hey Robz, there actually is lots to talk about" but like I said I think I misread that... but that doesn't negate my point that I feel that 2.7 was 1. posted low 2. was called out for low posting 3. started posting more as a result 4. was called out for posting more after being called out 5. went back and tried to find a way to justify what he did and show that it wasn't being called out that caused him to post more. The fact that I misunderstood the joke doesn't negate that this whole thing feels off and is scummy.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.6

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (1): Robz888
Not Voting (2):Liopoil, Eevee

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[yuma]

ash before I am going to take your tunnel on faust seriously I am going to need you to prove to me why he is a better lynch than all of the other options you are ignoring. I don't doubt that you think he is scum (or are pretending to really think he is scum) but it appears that you aren't giving due process to everything about everyone else. As long as you ignore everyone else and just shout "LYNCH FAUST" I am probably not going to be joining it because it looks like you aren't looking anywhere else and therefore have clouded judgement.... again I am not saying that your case is necessarily bad or wrong, but if you only look in one place how can you be so sure?

[Teproc]

I agree that his sudden surge of activity after the post count is scummy. What do you think of his insistence on his faust case when it's not as strong a case as he makes it appear ?

[yuma]

I agree that his sudden surge of activity after the post count is scummy. What do you think of his insistence on his faust case when it's not as strong a case as he makes it appear ?

I need to look over it more. Like I said I kinda glossed over it when I was catching up and just had 2.7 and faust give me a brief synopsis, but need to look over the specifics more.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.6

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (1): Robz888
Not Voting (2):Liopoil, Eevee

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

Eevee is voting for liopoil :

Anyways, faust/Teproc have also been involved in a way I can remember, and Lekkit gets a pass for attempting a case on Voltaire, leaving me to a Vote: liopoil Robz's observations about his play being similar to Toy Story are a nice addition to my own PoE.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.7

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (2): Robz888, Eevee
Not Voting (1):Liopoil

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.


Thank you Teproc!

[ashersky]

ash before I am going to take your tunnel on faust seriously I am going to need you to prove to me why he is a better lynch than all of the other options you are ignoring. I don't doubt that you think he is scum (or are pretending to really think he is scum) but it appears that you aren't giving due process to everything about everyone else. As long as you ignore everyone else and just shout "LYNCH FAUST" I am probably not going to be joining it because it looks like you aren't looking anywhere else and therefore have clouded judgement.... again I am not saying that your case is necessarily bad or wrong, but if you only look in one place how can you be so sure?

I have yet to see a truly compelling case (in this sentence, compelling = better than my opinion on faust) on anyone else.

I've already listed my prior scum read on chairs, but no one, and I mean no one, seems to want to join me on that.  And anyway, chairs comes below faust on the scumometer.

I don't understand the Voltaire votes.  At all.  Like, when do we ever lynch Voltaire D1?  He doesn't out himself this early if he's scum, he's easy to POE later.  He'll slip up at some point because he talks just as much as I do.

I get the lio votes, I suppose.  But LALL isn't a thing anymore, and lio lurking on D1 is not actually a scumtell.  It's a liotell.  He lurks as town as much as scum.  If anything, I'd say it is more likely lio is a VT and less interested in the game on D1 than anything else.

The mail-mi votes are just classic mail-mi votes.  We need to stop with the classic mail-mi votes.

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

Other than that, I guess we're all good.

Popsquiz:

Absolutely won't vote for on D1: ashersky, Lekkit, Voltaire, yuma
Prefer not to lynch: Robz, liopoil, mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin
Would not shed a tear over the death of: Eevee, Teproc, 2.7
Is most likely scum: chairs
Is absolutely scum that should have been lynched already but deserves the MVP for this game for surviving this long: faust

[chairs]

Absolutely won't vote for on D1: ashersky, Lekkit, Voltaire, yuma

You won't vote for yourself? SCUM! 

[Teproc]

Just so we're clear ash, you believe faust is scum because he said he was ok with a VT mislynch ?

That's stupid. Like, irredeemably so. So stupid I'm starting to think it's some kind of weird play (not necessarily a scum play mind you). What he said was that he preferred lynching you, a scummy (in his eyes at least) player who would be a VT if town, than chairs, a scummy player who would be a PR if town, even if chairs was slightly more likely to be scum. That's not scummy, that's being risk-averse.

[ashersky]

Just so we're clear ash, you believe faust is scum because he said he was ok with a VT mislynch ?

That's stupid. Like, irredeemably so. So stupid I'm starting to think it's some kind of weird play (not necessarily a scum play mind you). What he said was that he preferred lynching you, a scummy (in his eyes at least) player who would be a VT if town, than chairs, a scummy player who would be a PR if town, even if chairs was slightly more likely to be scum. That's not scummy, that's being risk-averse.

And why would he, or you for that matter, "know" I'm more likely to be a VT?

I saw faust's theory that I was willing to flavor claim because I'm either scum or a VT, but I see no basis for that theory.

You are misreading my case, possibly on purpose.  I am not saying that faust preferring my lynch over chairs's lynch is scummy.  The players involved have nothing to do with it.  It has to do with the words he used, the things he said.  He said he was trying to get a mislynch.  Like it was a foregone conclusion.  But it doesn't have to be a foregone conclusion, unless you are scum.

It's one thing to be okay with a mislynch happening in the end, as it is mathematically more likely anyway.  But planning for a mislynch, especially that early in the day (and it was REALLY early), is crazy.  Do you need to take into account "%likelihood of being a PR" into your "am I willing to risk this lynch being a mislynch" calculations?  ABSOLUTELY.  And I think that's Eevee's point.

But the fact that faust wanted to make that calculation so early in the day, when we had plenty of time to actually scumhunt as best we could and find the a likely scum lynch, is terrible.  It is scum getting ahead of itself in getting the opening mislynch.  This wasn't 6 hours to deadline and two viable wagons, so let's be sure to join the one that is less likely to be a PR if it's wrong time.  This was the very beginning of the day (and game!) and already planning and assuming a mislynch, and trying to gain towncred by making sure it falls on the more likely VT.

[yuma]

Looking at faust vs 2.7/ashersky

So this appears to be the post that started it all. It is his first post of the game and I'll quote it for full reference:

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

Followed immediately by a vote from ashersky:

This is all that ashersky says about it for a long, long time until pressed.... he just keeps kinda repeating over and over that faust is certainly scum... and I just don't see it ash, I don't. It is like you are seeing something that I am not. I am not saying I agree with his logic, but given what faust knew if he is town I don't think it is a horrible thing to surmise... And is easily something I could see town doing and coming to that conclusion.

Once this argument picks up steam again....

The newest piece of info we get is ash saying faust is scrambing but this comes with zero evidence.

And then we start getting into it a bit more... why did it take so long to flesh out this argument ash? And I still don't really see anything super, super significant here. Like I kinda get what ash is saying... town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to lynch town. But I don't think scum is ever that blatant about it or that easily caught.

Really I think the case on faust is being overly exaggerated by ashersky, regardless of faust's alignment. To what purpose I am not sure. If ash is town... over confidence? a ploy? if ash is scum.... well crazy ash is town ash so meta manipulation? or if ash is scum with faust epic bussing on the most minute point ever? Wouldn't put it past him, but right now I think this is likely town!ash overselling a case on town!faust would be my gut read of the situation....



Now onto 2.7/faust:

2.7 said this about the conversation:

I find Faust scummy because:
  1) He made a joke to create a D1 pass for himself
  2) He was looking for "good" mislynches in Ashersky and Voltaire.  He expressed concerns about both of them, not because he had come up with great scum narratives for them, but because they are mislynches that wouldn't hurt town as much

faust said this:

There was some ambiguity as to whether non-PRs had names, and I believe ashersky's flavor-claiming despite that ambiguity means he is not a PR (=either VT or scum). So I voted for ashersky, which e apparently finds scummy (note that he also flavor-claimed early). I find e's reaction since a little over the top and don't understand why he thinks ash is town. I am trying to convince him I'm town, but that seems to be futile endeavour.

Seems like the conversation started here with 2.7 voting for faust. Says the reasons are 1. a joke and 2. jumps on ash and says he is a good mislynch (oversimplification of what he said, by the way)... basically sheeping ashersky and 3. wants to policy vote voltaire. 1 and 3 are bunk... 2. has some points, but just isn't as significant as I think 2.7 and ash are making it out to be.

and the conversation I feel never really evolves to any new points from this juncture... just arguing. At the end of it I feel 2.7 comes off scummier for it mostly because I just don't see why faust is soooo scummy, but the whole conversation reads kinda null and I am only writing about it because teproc specifically asked me to. My vote on 2.7 remains mostly based off his reaction to the low post count. I don't necessarily have a town read on faust, I don't. He would probably be in my lynch pool at this point (although I am kinda adverse to lynching him again on a day1... that would make it three in a row and that just isn't very nice, but I would lynch him if I thought there was something truly significant).