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[Eevee]

Here goes some very rough POE:

Players:
1. Voltaire
2. Robz888
3. mail-mi
4. Chairs
5. Ashersky
6. Yuma
7. Ichimaru Gin
8. Lekkit
9. Liopoil
10. Teproc
11. 2.7
12. Eevee
13. Faust

Players 1-7 eliminated due to activity / general controversy surrounding them (and IG for being new, I agree it's no fun to start of your mafia career by getting lynched).

I wouldn't oppose my lynch if I didn't know my alignment, I know my performance this far has been lacking. Day 1s, I just don't see much happening.

Anyways, faust/Teproc have also been involved in a way I can remember, and Lekkit gets a pass for attempting a case on Voltaire, leaving me to a Vote: liopoil Robz's observations about his play being similar to Toy Story are a nice addition to my own PoE.

[2.71828.....]

Here goes some very rough POE:

Players:
1. Voltaire
2. Robz888
3. mail-mi
4. Chairs
5. Ashersky
6. Yuma
7. Ichimaru Gin
8. Lekkit
9. Liopoil
10. Teproc
11. 2.7
12. Eevee
13. Faust

Players 1-7 eliminated due to activity / general controversy surrounding them (and IG for being new, I agree it's no fun to start of your mafia career by getting lynched).

I wouldn't oppose my lynch if I didn't know my alignment, I know my performance this far has been lacking. Day 1s, I just don't see much happening.

Anyways, faust/Teproc have also been involved in a way I can remember, and Lekkit gets a pass for attempting a case on Voltaire, leaving me to a Vote: liopoil Robz's observations about his play being similar to Toy Story are a nice addition to my own PoE.

I marked off the people you talked about.  While I appreciate being above any suspicion, it is only fair if you at least mention me to mark me off your POE list

[faust]

So, let me respond to this.

1. Fair enough, I won't hold that against you.

2.1 So joking is scummy now? This is intersting coming from a guy who [REDACTED because ongoing game]. I did not look for a D1 pass. In fact, lynch me today if you feel you need to. I do admit I was a little annoyed because I was lynched D1 two times in a row, and would prefer if it didn't happen again.

2.2 So, consider the following, hypothetical situation: There's player A, who has a 50% chance to flip scum and a 50% chance to flip town PR. Then, there's player B with a 40% chance to flip scum and a 60% chance to flip VT. Which do you lynch? I would lynch B in this case - because it's better for town should he flip town. Sort of a minimax principle. This reasoning applies when I call someone a "good mislynch".

2.3 Hold on a second, I did not even policy vote Voltaire (and policy voting != policy lynching), and have stated since that Voltaire is out of my lynch pool for today. And my reasoning is not that the flavor discussion was irrelevant, it was that the discussion was actively hurting town.

[yuma]

voltaire has done a couple of things that I find to be anti-town now (sorry if you disagree voltaire, but I think if you look back you will see this to be true). I don't necessarily think that means scummy, but I would encourage him to rethink how he is playing if he is town, is that a fair request to ask voltaire?

Oh, I would agree with you that it was not handled well, in retrospect, but I ask you, what's the scum narrative here? It's actually quite nice now, in my eyes, because tons of people are calling me scummy for playing the game. That's actually a best-case scenario I think (expect for the whole chairs thing which, well, oops). I think I got a bit too excited about it because it really, really seemed to implicate ash.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

The way I understood yuma's post, he did not say you were scummy.

I personally think it's implied. And you can't deny several other people have stated they want to lynch me. (yuma also claims I'm unusually high later)

It wasn't implied. Why do you think it was implied (are you overly paranoid about people thinking you are scum?)

If I think you are scummy I will say I think you are scummy. If I think you are being anti-town I will say you are being anti-town. In this case I think you were being anti-town and asked you to address the situation and rectify it if you are town as best you can... which you appear to have done, but it shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that you are scummy because of it... But you thinking that I was implying something is scummy.

[yuma]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

Again what?

If you want to vote for me, vote for me. But where is the scum narrative on Voltaire? What are you talking about?

[2.71828.....]

2.1 So joking is scummy now? This is intersting coming from a guy who [REDACTED because ongoing game]. I did not look for a D1 pass. In fact, lynch me today if you feel you need to. I do admit I was a little annoyed because I was lynched D1 two times in a row, and would prefer if it didn't happen again.

I hope joking isn't scummy.  It is just that the content of your joke comes across as a "you better not lynch me" sort of joke.  I enjoy a good joke as much as the other guy, as you can see from my play in toy story and [REDACTED], but have learned that it can get you in trouble.  You have to be accountable for everything you say, which is tough when you are making jokes and really don't want to have disclaimers at the end of every post (ruining the joke).  So while I am fine giving you a pass for the joke, it is still important to remember that you are accountable for the stuff you joke about.

2.2 So, consider the following, hypothetical situation: There's player A, who has a 50% chance to flip scum and a 50% chance to flip town PR. Then, there's player B with a 40% chance to flip scum and a 60% chance to flip VT. Which do you lynch? I would lynch B in this case - because it's better for town should he flip town. Sort of a minimax principle. This reasoning applies when I call someone a "good mislynch".

So Ash is player B since he claimed a flavor name?  And what, chairs is player A?  How about player C who has 60% shot of being scum, 40% shot of being VT?  I like those odds better.  (you are player C.  And don't come and accuse me about making up arbitrary percentages, you did the same thing.  I mean, I am being generous. By Ashersky standards it would by 100% shot of being scum, 0% shot of being VT)

2.3 Hold on a second, I did not even policy vote Voltaire (and policy voting != policy lynching), and have stated since that Voltaire is out of my lynch pool for today. And my reasoning is not that the flavor discussion was irrelevant, it was that the discussion was actively hurting town.

True, you did not policy vote Voltaire.  And true, flavor discussion hurt town.  But you were setting yourself up for another "He would make a good mislynch" target with that statement.  Which I find to be a little scummy

[yuma]

I kinda glossed over a lot of the thread just now... can someone summarize the argument that 2.7/faust were having...

actually let's to this... it worked really well in Toy Story with eevee/Robz

Can both 2.7 and faust both summarize their main points in 5 sentences or less?

But in the meantime... I am noticing that we have never had a serious wagon on anyone throughout the whole game... that is kinda weird.

vote: liopoil I agree with enough of Robz's points to put down a vote here....

[2.71828.....]

I find Faust scummy because:
  1) He made a joke to create a D1 pass for himself
  2) He was looking for "good" mislynches in Ashersky and Voltaire.  He expressed concerns about both of them, not because he had come up with great scum narratives for them, but because they are mislynches that wouldn't hurt town as much

[Eevee]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

Again what?

If you want to vote for me, vote for me. But where is the scum narrative on Voltaire? What are you talking about?

I'm referring to you saying "this is anti-town and Voltaire is doing it, however it's not pro-scum either, so not suspecting Voltaire for it". Your explanation for it was to instruct Voltaire to stop being anti-town, which is fine.

[yuma]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

Again what?

If you want to vote for me, vote for me. But where is the scum narrative on Voltaire? What are you talking about?

I'm referring to you saying "this is anti-town and Voltaire is doing it, however it's not pro-scum either, so not suspecting Voltaire for it". Your explanation for it was to instruct Voltaire to stop being anti-town, which is fine.

So why would you vote me for that?

[Teproc]

Anything that is anti-town is pro-scum. Being anti-town is not necessarily scummy (ie an indicative of being scum), but it's definitely pro-scum.

I still don't see what's scummy about faust's joke. It was very early in the day, and he did get mislynched twice in a very short amount of time. It made me smile and I really didn't think much of it. I certainly didn't think he was trying to avoid getting lynched with that.

[2.71828.....]

Ok, so the case against Liopoil that Robz brought up:  Liopoil struggles to contribute as scum D1.  Liopoil is not contributing today.  Liopoil is scum. 

I think we can do better than that.  However, I do agree with the concern that we do not have a single wagon today.  I mean, not even an RVS wagon. 

[faust]

@yuma, my argument with e:

There was some ambiguity as to whether non-PRs had names, and I believe ashersky's flavor-claiming despite that ambiguity means he is not a PR (=either VT or scum). So I voted for ashersky, which e apparently finds scummy (note that he also flavor-claimed early). I find e's reaction since a little over the top and don't understand why he thinks ash is town. I am trying to convince him I'm town, but that seems to be futile endeavour.

PPE: 5

[Eevee]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

Again what?

If you want to vote for me, vote for me. But where is the scum narrative on Voltaire? What are you talking about?

I'm referring to you saying "this is anti-town and Voltaire is doing it, however it's not pro-scum either, so not suspecting Voltaire for it". Your explanation for it was to instruct Voltaire to stop being anti-town, which is fine.

So why would you vote me for that?

I guess I felt like you were trying to throw mud around without getting your own hands dirty (day 1 cases built around an antitown mistake someone made have often been popular in the past).

[yuma]

One thing has jumped out to me in my reread/skim....

11. 2.7 - 21

13. Faust - 21

current post count:

2.7 - 53
faust - 35

Both of these players started at 21 posts when I did my first vote count. Since then 2.7 has amped up his posting dramatically....

starting with:

Yuma is correct to point out my low post count. I have not been as active as I should. I have a Christmas party that I have to go to right now, but I just finished a reread and will post my thoughts as soon as I get a chance either late tonight or sometime tomorrow.

This rings kinda like Grujah in MXI where he was called out for lurking and then quickly amped up his posting as a result. I hate finding this sort of stuff suspicious because it has the potential to discourage posting in future situations, but I do think lurking and then not lurking after being called out is something of a scumtell... as opposed to lurking, getting called out and continuing to semi-lurk.... mafia cares about being perceived as lurking, town... unfortunately often doesn't care at all...

[faust]

So Ash is player B since he claimed a flavor name?  And what, chairs is player A?  How about player C who has 60% shot of being scum, 40% shot of being VT?  I like those odds better.  (you are player C.  And don't come and accuse me about making up arbitrary percentages, you did the same thing.  I mean, I am being generous. By Ashersky standards it would by 100% shot of being scum, 0% shot of being VT)

I just gave an abstract example, A and B weren't meant to correspond to actual players in this game. Also, how come you think I have a 0% chance of being a PR?

[2.71828.....]

I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything.

I feel a lot like this right now. I have been super quiet, and I apologize. I will look to post a lot more in the coming days, but have been busy with work doing a bunch of short trips that take me away from my computer. I mean there was the whole claim thing (which I was right about, even if you do not think I should have claimed when I did) then we all kinds of for to a point of "let's not talk about this anymore" then the chairs thing, but not much else. I am pretty busy tonight and tomorrow but I will put some real effort into getting some reads Sunday. But I just feel as if there isn't a whole lot to go off of.

I guess I should do a random drawing them just tunnel the person I draw if nothing else happens.



(For the sake of clarity, that was a joke)

This was before Yuma's post count and calling me out on it.  I guess I sort of followed my joke about picking someone to tunnel, but varied from the joke in that it was not a random "draw out of the hat" tunnel.  It was because in my reread he was the one who came up scummiest.  And we had to start somewhere

[faust]

Ok, so the case against Liopoil that Robz brought up:  Liopoil struggles to contribute as scum D1.  Liopoil is not contributing today.  Liopoil is scum. 

I think we can do better than that.  However, I do agree with the concern that we do not have a single wagon today.  I mean, not even an RVS wagon.

Well, to be fair, the case against liopoil isn't worse than the case you made against me. But it seems the only cases you deem worthy are those supported by you.

[2.71828.....]

So Ash is player B since he claimed a flavor name?  And what, chairs is player A?  How about player C who has 60% shot of being scum, 40% shot of being VT?  I like those odds better.  (you are player C.  And don't come and accuse me about making up arbitrary percentages, you did the same thing.  I mean, I am being generous. By Ashersky standards it would by 100% shot of being scum, 0% shot of being VT)

I just gave an abstract example, A and B weren't meant to correspond to actual players in this game. Also, how come you think I have a 0% chance of being a PR?

I do not know that.  In this game, it is impossible to know PRs D1 unless they claim at L-1. (hopefully we don't get a town PR to L-1)  So it is entirely possible that you are a PR, but I kind of just threw it out because that is almost impossible to tell on anyone.  So say everyone defaults to 20% chance of PR (except we might give chairs a higher %) then just take my odds and adjust accordingly

[2.71828.....]

I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything.

I feel a lot like this right now. I have been super quiet, and I apologize. I will look to post a lot more in the coming days, but have been busy with work doing a bunch of short trips that take me away from my computer. I mean there was the whole claim thing (which I was right about, even if you do not think I should have claimed when I did) then we all kinds of for to a point of "let's not talk about this anymore" then the chairs thing, but not much else. I am pretty busy tonight and tomorrow but I will put some real effort into getting some reads Sunday. But I just feel as if there isn't a whole lot to go off of.

I guess I should do a random drawing them just tunnel the person I draw if nothing else happens.



(For the sake of clarity, that was a joke)

This was before Yuma's post count and calling me out on it.  I guess I sort of followed my joke about picking someone to tunnel, but varied from the joke in that it was not a random "draw out of the hat" tunnel.  It was because in my reread he was the one who came up scummiest.  And we had to start somewhere

This doesn't really respond to this very much because as scum I could have realized I needed to up my activity D1 anyway

I do think lurking and then not lurking after being called out is something of a scumtell... as opposed to lurking, getting called out and continuing to semi-lurk.... mafia cares about being perceived as lurking, town... unfortunately often doesn't care at all...

But it does show my increased activity wasn't a pure reaction to yuma calling me out

[2.71828.....]

Ok, so the case against Liopoil that Robz brought up:  Liopoil struggles to contribute as scum D1.  Liopoil is not contributing today.  Liopoil is scum. 

I think we can do better than that.  However, I do agree with the concern that we do not have a single wagon today.  I mean, not even an RVS wagon.

Well, to be fair, the case against liopoil isn't worse than the case you made against me. But it seems the only cases you deem worthy are those supported by you.

Actually, it is more of a "I don't like lynching lurkers after my ordeal with Archetype in Toy Story went sour" kind of things.

[Teproc]

The question here is : does liopoil lurk as town ? I'm trusting Robz in his assesment of scum! liopoil, but it's only relevant if liopoil is more active as town. I'd do the research, but... you know.

[yuma]

Also I am suspicious of people who tried to PoE too early. I think the earliest that could have been done was when eevee did it just a few hours ago (I mean the line isn't that obvious, but especially in the early days there just wans't enough information to eliminate people from anything in my opinion....)

As a result I wonder if people who were using PoE too early were players trying to make it look like they were townie and actively scum hunting (or the inverse town eliminating) but doing so so early that it was possible for them to do so without any sort of repercussions and not really basing it off anything (exactly what scum wants to do)...

chairs was the first to do so 3 hours after the start of day...

and then chairs asks if we should start making PoE lists again this is 1 day after the start of the game...

Voltaire responds with a list:

faust joins in 2 days after game start:

mail-mi and ichimaru join in, but they are doing more of pops style reads... so I don't mind this quite as much as it isn't too early PoE, but just putting out reads at the time...

again from Galz on why PoE, when done the right way is good:

Every town player there right now is trying too hard to finger scum. To catch them. That won't work d1. Flip it around. Don't look for that one good case for somebody being scum, look for reasons to eliminate people. Give them reasons to be town - or at least a reason not to lynch. Archetype, for example, should be off the table. PoE down based on not who's "most likely" to be scum, but instead by eliminating those "less likely" to be scum.

Finding scum needs real information. You can't have that d1. D1 is a different animal and needs to be treated with different guiding principles. Town(s) will continue to fail because they think they can catch scum when they can't. D1 lynches are FAR, FAR below average for hitting scum for a reason.

The trick is making reasonable arguments for certain people (Arch, here) to be removed from lynch candidacy. Arguments that most agree on.

Emphasis on the reasonable arguments part. I would say all of the PoE done up to this point--not this post, but up to the ones I have included in this post--were done too early to be reasonable...

As a result I question why they were even done. To me it just looks like players who wanted to look like they were being productive town members trying to get some town points w/o actually needing to do the work or put down the strong opinion on something as at this point there wasn't enough to put down a strong opinion on anything...

This isn't a surefire point, and I am not voting anyone because of it because I could see town players thinking that doing this would be beneficial for some reason... but I am wary of those who did.

[yuma]

The question here is : does liopoil lurk as town ? I'm trusting Robz in his assesment of scum! liopoil, but it's only relevant if liopoil is more active as town. I'd do the research, but... you know.

yes, he does to an extent. I would surmise that he lurks more as scum in general (basing this off B2B and Toy Story). But of late he has lurked in most games (modern community and harry potter he was town and toward the bottom I believe)

[yuma]

Ok, so the case against Liopoil that Robz brought up:  Liopoil struggles to contribute as scum D1.  Liopoil is not contributing today.  Liopoil is scum. 

I think we can do better than that.  However, I do agree with the concern that we do not have a single wagon today.  I mean, not even an RVS wagon.

Well, to be fair, the case against liopoil isn't worse than the case you made against me. But it seems the only cases you deem worthy are those supported by you.

Actually, it is more of a "I don't like lynching lurkers after my ordeal with Archetype in Toy Story went sour" kind of things.

Try not to ahve this train of thought. Rarely are we going to have town players purposefully lurking to get themselves lynched while watching the thread but not saying anything just because... most of the time town isn't going to be that anti-town and lynching lurkers will result in hitting scum...

More important what you should have taken from Toy Story was how mafia systematically killed off the most active players (you, me, Voltaire, ash) and left town with 3 extremely low posters in the last day to stall out the game and kill off any discussion and analysis...