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[2.71828.....]

As far as my case against Faust, I am in no way claiming that this is a perfect case. But it is actually a case. Today has been dominated by flavor, Voltaire/chairs, and not much else. When Ireread the thread, Faust such out to me. So I explained why, voted, and began asking other people to hopefully get someone to say something that resembles scum hunting. What is your case against me?  Other than that you don't like my scum hunting our my prodding of people to post.

[Teproc]

My problem is not your case per se. It's day 1, everyone's case is going to be weak. My problem is that you're trying to paint it as more than it is in order to look like a good active townie scumhunter.

Asking everyone to give their opinion about faust is leading town, which is scummy. Of course you could be town and just trying to get the game active. Sure. I just don't think you are.

[liopoil]

townread on voltaire. He's acting like he usually does as town, with things like "unvote, chairs is town. let's not say why" and "POEPOEPOEPOEPOE" and "Vote: mail-mi, here's a reason, levelheaded reasons later, oh-wait-that's-it". Sure, pretty easy to fake I guess, but eh.

pretty null on ash. I don't think not having a plan is a scumtell here, because a) there isn't a good plan to be had and b) ashersky doesn't always follow his meta, e.g., banker's beware. We shouldn't suspect him for that. but does it mean he's town? nope. oh, he flavorclaimed. hmmm. slight town?

not sold on the faust case. at all, I don't really get it. I think his suspicious on ash isn't really warranted, but for all I know, he could be right. I guess also slight town for being suspected for bad reasons.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichimaru, you are currently voting Voltaire. You didn't really mention any reasons, and when you tag on to reasons other people have made it is called sheeping and it is not a good place to be.  However, looking at another person's case against someone and understanding why that someone is scummy is fine for a new player. What your job as a new player to do is evaluate the pros/cons of each case and decide which one you like the best and go there. Then instead of trying to create your own case (which can be tough) you can expand on an existing case by starting what points you think are good or bad.

My question to you: what case do you think is the best case right now? Faust, Voltaire, Ashersky, and liopoil all have some sort of case or vote against them. What reasons do you have for saying that person is the scummiest?

You are right. I have heard that term before, but was unaware exactly what it meant.

I don't see much of a case against Ash. From what I understand, it's mostly based of him not doing what he normally does--analyzing the set a ton and having a plan. Considering this setup, that doesn't really strike me as scummy.

The case on Faust makes more sense.

Faust- first post is a joke about getting lynched D1. Second post he jumps on ash for claiming and says ash is a good mislynch. Mentions policy lynching Voltaire for bringing up mass flavor-claiming.  He then throws out some "helpful" stuff about the setup. He has said a bit here or there since then, but it hasn't helped me shake the feeling that Faust is scum.

I will join Zhang Fei and vote: Faust

This I mostly agree with. But I still don't see it as strong as the case against Voltaire. I only have one vote, and that's going to who I personally think is scummiest.

Concerning Voltaire, there are several things that make him the scummiest in my mind.
1. The really high post count. At the last count, he was significantly higher than anyone else. While this could be interpreted as just active town, I read it as a scum attempt to get town credit.
2. Lekkit's argument against Voltaire had a number of strong points that I agree with. Voltaire's assurance that Mafia  could really only claim VT just strikes me as odd, like he knows something that the rest of us don't.
(mostly going off of what Lekkit said from here on)
3. His response to Yuma's rebuttal of his secret case seemed really scummy to me. Not a lot of substance there, and an overall slippery feeling from that post. Like he was trying really hard to cast attention anywhere but himself.
4. And the way the whole secret case thing was handled in general.

Case on liopoil. I must admit I don't know much about it. I'll have to go back and look it over to see what I think of it.

[Teproc]

I guess also slight town for being suspected for bad reasons.

Huh ? How is that indicative of anything ? If scum wants to build cases against each other, they definitely will be weak cases to avoid actually creating a wagon.

[2.71828.....]

I guess also slight town for being suspected for bad reasons.

Huh ? How is that indicative of anything ? If scum wants to build cases against each other, they definitely will be weak cases to avoid actually creating a wagon.

scum would also be content letting this game lurk into night without any real scum hunting.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichimaru : Playing up the newb card. A lot. The OMGUS seems forced newbishness. Surprised Robz hasn't commented on that. Scummy.

I have. If that's the way you want to put it. I guess I just feel the reason to put a lot of qualifying statements out there partially because I'm having a little trouble keeping up with everything. And as an explanation if something I say is totally ignorant or nonsensical.
I feel that a lot of cases are based off of player's meta--something I know pretty much nothing about. The rest of you have a history of many games and are able to construct complex cases including that information. I on the other hand, I just have to take people's word when it comes to meta. For example, the case on Ash, is mostly based off what people see as a change in his playstyle. That argument just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, since it's almost purely constructed off of information I don't really have the ability to verify.
If you'd rather I stop putting those qualifying statements out there, I'll be happy to. I just don't want to come off like some jerk by saying a bunch of stuff when I may not know at all what I'm talking about.
I really am a newb, ok. I'm not some master whose disguising his identity and really knows far more than he lets on.
And if anything, my emphasis of noobishness only further proves my inexperience. If you want to take that as scummy, fine.

I'm just doing my best to get into the game and find out how to read people, and how other people read my behavior, so I can best find scum. Yeah, I may suck as new town, but I'm trying.

[liopoil]

I guess also slight town for being suspected for bad reasons.

Huh ? How is that indicative of anything ? If scum wants to build cases against each other, they definitely will be weak cases to avoid actually creating a wagon.

it means that if the only reasons they are being suspected are bad reasons, then there are likely no good reasons to suspect them

[2.71828.....]

Ichimaru: yes please, stop the qualifiers. Your most recent reads post was great and you are doing fine so far. Bringing up your newness doesn't help anyone. It looks like an excuse, and you don't get better by making excuses, but by learning from mistakes. So go for it. Speak your thoughts. And be confident. If you make a mistake, just learn from it and move on.

[ashersky]

Voltaire posting a ton is not scummy.  That's just Voltaire.

[Robz888]

Ichimaru : Playing up the newb card. A lot. The OMGUS seems forced newbishness. Surprised Robz hasn't commented on that. Scummy.

You're probably right, I just barely even pay attention to the true newbs on Day 1 because I know I'm not going to want to lynch them. I'm sure that's a bad way for me to play, but it's what I've sort of fallen into.

[liopoil]

Voltaire posting a ton is not scummy.  That's just Voltaire.

did someone say it was?

[ashersky]

Voltaire posting a ton is not scummy.  That's just Voltaire.

did someone say it was?

Ichimaru Gin.

[chairs]

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

If you think that pair has a good chance of having one scum, then why are you voting with them?

You're misconstruing my statement.  I don't think it has a -good- chance of having one scum.  I think it has a -bad- chance of being two scum.  I think it's 0-1 scum, and probably 0.

[ashersky]

So...game?

When's the deadline?  We've stalled out hard.

[Lekkit]

Scum are confident.

Town change their mind as new evidence presents itself.

I do not think Voltaire is scum.

Voltaire switches standpoints without any new evidence. He just turns, then turns again. And says he's maintained the same stance.

Where does Voltaire claim he maintained the same stance? I didn't see it in your summary post, where you painted Voltaire as scummy as possible.

Since when is this how ashersky plays? vote: ashersky.

Also, everyone should vote ash because chairs is one of his top scum reads.

agree totally. D1, we ask "Who's the scummiest?" and lynch them.

But see I think that is a terrible way to play D1, and it's why in the past f.ds usually lynches town D1 (we've gotten much better at this lately).

This his how I think you play D1: *I wanted to quote Galzria's explanation from that speccy thread, but I can't find it. Any help? You know the one I mean.*

Everyone should join me in lynching ash.

And I feel better about a mail-mi vote than an ash vote.

I am town. I think faust is not scummy. If ashersky is town, I can see how he could find faust scummy. We have the same alignment (maybe), but we disagree.

No, pointing out that my disagreement with ash may or may not be town v town. Since I don't know ash's alignment.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

[ashersky]

Not currently a fan of a Volt lynch.  We should get confirm scum Faust out of the way first.

[faust]

Well, while I fear there may be some OMGUS in this, e does appear different from his usual town self. He's usually reluctant to vote early on. I am also used to him making better cases han the one against me, but here of course my perception may be skewed because I know I'm town. What's interesting is that he is defending ash that strongly, which would be a dangerous move for scum to make D1. So one of them could be town. But, at this point, I also think that only one of them is town.

[Lekkit]

Why do you think only one of them is town?

[faust]

Why do you think only one of them is town?

Because I think both seem scummy, so I hope my scum sensor is accurate in at least one case.

[Lekkit]

So you don't really think one of them is scum, you hope?

[Teproc]

If you'd rather I stop putting those qualifying statements out there, I'll be happy to. I just don't want to come off like some jerk by saying a bunch of stuff when I may not know at all what I'm talking about.

The thing is, nobody here knows what they're talking about except for scum. On day 1, the info we have is ridiculously small. The goal is then to generate as much content as possible that will help us looking back in future days, and hopefully stumble into a correct lynch, but that's kind of unlikely unfortunately.

I understand the tendency to qualify your posts, but it reduces their impact. If you vote for me and act very unsure, I'm not going to feel too worried and, instead of trying to respond, I'll just wait for you to move your vote (if I'm scum, that is). Whereas if you do it a little more aggressively, you will elicit a response, just like I did with you there. I understand that there's a fear of sounding like an ass (which I may have in my post and if I did I'm sorry), but there is an understanding that this is a game that is all about accusing people. You don't have to be ridiculously confident in your reads like ash, but you should tyr to appear more confident than you actually are I think.

Also, the reason what you're doing is scummy is that it diminishes accountability. Later, when we look back on a scummy post you mad, you can just say "well I didn't really know what I was doing", rather than actually explaining why you did whatever it is we might find scummy later (ie once we have more info). And I had a bad feeling on your ash vote, like it was faked ignorance of OMGUS (which is generally considered scummy, or at least anti-town). Your response read quite towny though, so there's that.

Oh and that's also why I don't like talking about POE and day passes this early. Ichimaru could have just ignored me because, you know, he's not getting lynched today anyway ! I don't actually disagree about giving a day 1 pass to new players, but I don't think we should make a big deal out of it right away.

[faust]

So you don't really think one of them is scum, you hope?

Errr.... I think one of them is scum, and I hope that my thought are accurate?

[2.71828.....]

Well, while I fear there may be some OMGUS in this, e does appear different from his usual town self. He's usually reluctant to vote early on. I am also used to him making better cases han the one against me, but here of course my perception may be skewed because I know I'm town. What's interesting is that he is defending ash that strongly, which would be a dangerous move for scum to make D1. So one of them could be town. But, at this point, I also think that only one of them is town.

Ignoring the OMGUS, which I don't really mind, I will address your concerns about my play:

I am not my usual town self
1) I am reluctant to vote early on- This is somewhat true.  I do not usually like to vote early.  But you can see from Toy Story, for example, that I will vote early if I decide that a person is worthy of my vote.  In fact, I wish I had kept my initial scum read on Robz because he turned out to be scum!  Now, what would be more accurate to say is that I do not usually partake in RVS voting.  I did in this game, but quickly removed that vote as soon as we started discussing things.  I like to have my vote somewhere that I actually believe is scum.  Another point is that it is no longer early.  We have about 3 days until the deadline.  We need to get something rolling.  A vote is one way to help that along

2) I usually make better cases- Again, true.  I am glad that I have established some sort of meta for doing this after having only finished one game while in the midst of another currently.  I like to be rational and well thought out.  However, in a game where it is impossible to make a case against anyone because no one has done anything, I will make whatever case that I can.  When doing my reread, you popped off the pages with some scummy statements.  Let me go over them again:
       1) You made a joke about being lynched D1, which I find to be pretty scummy.  It is like saying "everyone remember that I have been lynched D1 in the past so you better not do it today."  In other words, trying to create a D1 pass for yourself
       2) You immediately jumped on Ash for claiming "early" before we "knew" that flavor names did not give away PRs.  Then you said that Ashersky makes a good mislynch because he claimed.  What are you trying to do?  Discourage other people from claiming because you are scum and haven't been given a fake claim?  (I will leave that there, I am not going back into a flavor discussion today)  Whatever you are doing, looking for a "good mislynch" is not where you want to be as town
       3) You move on to talking about policy lynching Voltaire for even bringing up the flavor stuff.  Scared of flavor that much?  Basically your reasoning is that Voltaire side-tracked town into an irrelevant discussion, and should therefore be lynched.  Well at least he moved us toward discussion, no matter how futile it ended up being.  But again, policy-lynching is something that takes little effort from you.  It tells nothing of your alignment or motives, because it was a "policy lynch."  A great place for scum.  Lynch a townie, escape free.

After reviewing my case again, I am wondering why you even brought up that "you are used to me making better cases."  Are you scared scum and want to discredit the case I made? Did you find this to be a good opportunity because others (Robz for example) do not find the case convincing?

As far as your point about defending Ash strongly:  True.  Because I think that he is town.  I have also defended Voltaire this game.  Because I think he is town.  I have town reads on both of them.  I still want them both to respond to the cases brought against them, but I thought that I would defend them, because people spending time on them is people distracted from the real scum, Faust.

[2.71828.....]

Scum are confident.

Town change their mind as new evidence presents itself.

I do not think Voltaire is scum.

Voltaire switches standpoints without any new evidence. He just turns, then turns again. And says he's maintained the same stance.

Where does Voltaire claim he maintained the same stance? I didn't see it in your summary post, where you painted Voltaire as scummy as possible.

Since when is this how ashersky plays? vote: ashersky.

Also, everyone should vote ash because chairs is one of his top scum reads.

agree totally. D1, we ask "Who's the scummiest?" and lynch them.

But see I think that is a terrible way to play D1, and it's why in the past f.ds usually lynches town D1 (we've gotten much better at this lately).

This his how I think you play D1: *I wanted to quote Galzria's explanation from that speccy thread, but I can't find it. Any help? You know the one I mean.*

Everyone should join me in lynching ash.

And I feel better about a mail-mi vote than an ash vote.

I am town. I think faust is not scummy. If ashersky is town, I can see how he could find faust scummy. We have the same alignment (maybe), but we disagree.

No, pointing out that my disagreement with ash may or may not be town v town. Since I don't know ash's alignment.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

Seems to me like he has been on Ash and mail-mi all game.  Not much variation there.