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[mcmcsalot]

Welcome to Dynasty Warriors Mafia 2 The Battle of Red Cliffs

Mods: Mcmcsalot

This is a normal mafia game with the setup of JK9++ See further set-up and deadline information in Post 2.

Players:
1. Voltaire
2. Robz888
3. mail-mi
4. Chairs
5. Ashersky
6. Yuma
7. Ichimaru Gin
8. Lekkit
9. Liopoil
10. Teproc
11. 2.7
12. Eevee
13. Faust

Spectators Tagged:

Day starts: Day 1 Start:


f.ds Mafia Ruleset

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for this game. If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play here.

Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. Personal communication outside of the forum postings is NOT ALLOWED unless your Role PM specifically allows it.
3. If you have a role with a Night action, your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines). If we do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used. Generally, one team member may submit the Night Actions for all team members.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage), unless your Role PM specifically allows it.
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase, unless your Action is compulsory.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics, except for twilight. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent, but will be invited to the Spectator Quicktopic.
8. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.


Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, Purple text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 48 hours of no activity or upon request after 24 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

Helpful Links:


--Newbie Guide

--Frequently Asked Questions

--Commonly Used Abbreviations


TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

[mcmcsalot]

This game will be run as a straight up JK9++

Days Will last roughly 10 days each and Night will last roughly 2 days.

Claiming both role, and flavor will be allowed this game. Flavor does follow logically the events of Dynasty Warriors.

[Voltaire]

/in

[Jimmmmm]

/tag

[Robz888]

/in!

[mail-mi]

/somuchin.

Please don't make me scum again!

[chairs]

/in
/in
/in
/in

[mcmcsalot]

So y the way I am looking for a co mod and may or may not be implementing a twist which I keep planning on doing then deciding not to last minute

[Robz888]

So y the way I am looking for a co mod and may or may not be implementing a twist which I keep planning on doing then deciding not to last minute

Talk it over with someone who doesn't want to /in... Galzria, Voltgloss, ashersky, yuma all possible.

[ashersky]

/in

[ashersky]

This is Mafia 36.

[yuma]

/in

[Archetype]

I could look it over!

[Lekkit]

When do you think this will start? I might be in on this one.

[ashersky]

When do you think this will start? I might be in on this one.

He's back!  My infuriating werewolf partner! 

[mcmcsalot]

When do you think this will start? I might be in on this one.

Start time can definitely be flexible. It depends on how fast and how much interest people have.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I've never played Mafia before, but I want to get started. Is this game for more experienced players?
And, if I have some questions, should I just PM the Moderator?

[Robz888]

I've never played Mafia before, but I want to get started. Is this game for more experienced players?
And, if I have some questions, should I just PM the Moderator?

If you have a question, broadly speaking, about Forum Games in general, PM me or Galzria.

If you have a question about this specific game, PM the mod.

And welcome! Please read over the setup, but this should be a fine game for a newbie.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sweet. Then I guess

/in

I'll definitely be reading over everything as much as I can.
This should be awesome!

[yuma]

Sweet. Then I guess

/in

I'll definitely be reading over everything as much as I can.
This should be awesome!

That's great. Welcome the community with the community! If you have some time before this starts I might suggest reading through a previous game, I spectated two games (Mafia I and II way back when) before playing in my first game (Mafia III) and it helped tremendously I think, but isn't absolutely necessary. This game was hosted by the same mod and is using a similar setup. If you have the time it will help you get a feel for the lingo and style. Or if you would rather start following an ongoing game, feel free to /tag into this game and watch as it develops. That game is hosted by me... Hi! I'm yuma! ... and is in the first day so you haven't missed much.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I've been reading over XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia. But I agree that it would probably be good to read over a similar game. I'll be checking out your link for sure.
And thanks for the greeting! I get the feeling this game is going to be pretty sick.

[Robz888]

I've been reading over XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia. But I agree that it would probably be good to read over a similar game. I'll be checking out your link for sure.
And thanks for the greeting! I get the feeling this game is going to be pretty sick.

Oh, that's a great game. You'll get the gist of things.

[ashersky]

I've been reading over XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia. But I agree that it would probably be good to read over a similar game. I'll be checking out your link for sure.
And thanks for the greeting! I get the feeling this game is going to be pretty sick.

Oh, that's a great game. You'll get the gist of things.

Including how we can all turn out hating each other and multi-ball in the end.

[liopoil]

That one was so anticlimactic... especially from my perspective . It was also my first game.

[Robz888]

All lies. An awesome game and an awesome end. And an awesome Robz triumph. Awesome awesome awesome.

[Lekkit]

When do you think this will start? I might be in on this one.

He's back!  My infuriating werewolf partner! 

Yeah, I still feel bad about that. It turned out okay, though.

I guess I'll /in here. I might have to back out depending on how things look for me when it starts up.

[mcmcsalot]

I've never played Mafia before, but I want to get started. Is this game for more experienced players?
And, if I have some questions, should I just PM the Moderator?

I am 99% sure this game will be newbie friendly, I may suggest reading http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9409.0 It is the first game in this series and this one will play off of it a bit. It is nothing that would be necessary but the flavor and whatnot may be more fun if you have read the last one.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I've been reading over the link you sent me to the first Mafia MXXXII: Dynasty Warriors Mafia.
And I think I'm getting more of a feeling for the game, and the players involved: many of which are also playing in this game.
This should be very interesting. . .
Looking forward to it.

[ashersky]

I've been reading over the link you sent me to the first Mafia MXXXII: Dynasty Warriors Mafia.
And I think I'm getting more of a feeling for the game, and the players involved: many of which are also playing in this game.
This should be very interesting. . .
Looking forward to it.

All you need to know is vote: Robz.

[Robz888]

You'll only lynch me when I'm town!

[Ichimaru Gin]

ok quick question.
In reading over the first Dynasty Warriors Mafia, I see you guys using "PPE" a lot.
I looked it up on the internet, but couldn't find anything that made sense.
So what exactly does this mean?

[mail-mi]

ok quick question.
In reading over the first Dynasty Warriors Mafia, I see you guys using "PPE" a lot.
I looked it up on the internet, but couldn't find anything that made sense.
So what exactly does this mean?

PPE: Pre-Post Edit.

It means that when you're typing something, then you hit post but it shows a little red warning that says "X posts have been posted while you've been typing. Are you sure you want to continue?" Anything you add because of those posts is a PPE.

[Robz888]

Pre-post Edit.

When you hit "post" after writing something, the forum stops you and says, "hey, there are like 3 new posts that got written while you were busy on this!"

So when we write "PPE: 12," it's like saying, "And by the way I hadn't seen the most recent 12 messages and have no idea hwat they say, but I am posting this anyway."

PPE: 1. (Mail-mi's post)

[Ichimaru Gin]

Thank you both for answering my question. Your help is very much appreciated.
I'm sure after a few games I'll be more up to speed. . .
I've been checking out the mafiascum wiki and reading over previous games in preparation. But there are some things I can't seem to locate information on. So it is very nice to have some veteran players to refer to.

[Robz888]

Yep, no problem!

Some other common shorthand...

POE -- Process of Elimination.
Hammer -- Cast the vote that results in lynch.
L-1, L-2 -- 1 vote away from lynch, 2 votes away from lynch
WIFOM -- Wine in front of me. The circular logic that results from arguments like, "I wouldn't have done X, because I knew you would expect me to do X."

[Ichimaru Gin]

Thanks! These are very helpful.
The last one is taken from Princess Bride I'm assuming?
Love that movie.

[Robz888]

Thanks! These are very helpful.
The last one is taken from Princess Bride I'm assuming?
Love that movie.

Exactly! You'll fit right in

[XerxesPraelor]

/in

[yuma]

I would love for this game to start before Toy Story ends... we only need 5 more!

[Teproc]

Alright, no idea what the flavour is, will try to take a look at the previous one. /in

[Voltaire]

Alright, no idea what the flavour is, will try to take a look at the previous one. /in

It's ok - last time we couldn't claim it!

[mcmcsalot]

Alright, no idea what the flavour is, will try to take a look at the previous one. /in

It's ok - last time we couldn't claim it!

That was last time. Everyone had been called to battle from all part of China, there was no way to tell who was who with the usurper Dong Zhuo in the mix. The battle for the Red Cliffs will be much different.

[Robz888]

[chairs]

I've been reading over the link you sent me to the first Mafia MXXXII: Dynasty Warriors Mafia.
And I think I'm getting more of a feeling for the game, and the players involved: many of which are also playing in this game.
This should be very interesting. . .
Looking forward to it.

All you need to know is vote: Robz.

Don't forget to vote: sudgy

[sudgy]

I've been reading over the link you sent me to the first Mafia MXXXII: Dynasty Warriors Mafia.
And I think I'm getting more of a feeling for the game, and the players involved: many of which are also playing in this game.
This should be very interesting. . .
Looking forward to it.

All you need to know is vote: Robz.

Don't forget to vote: sudgy

OMGUS Vote: chairs[b/]

[chairs]

mcmc could you edit post 2 with setup info etc etc

[chairs]

I've been reading over the link you sent me to the first Mafia MXXXII: Dynasty Warriors Mafia.
And I think I'm getting more of a feeling for the game, and the players involved: many of which are also playing in this game.
This should be very interesting. . .
Looking forward to it.

All you need to know is vote: Robz.

Don't forget to vote: sudgy

OMGUS Vote: chairs[b/]

Are you afraid I'm voting you for all the wrong reasons?

[sudgy]

I've been reading over the link you sent me to the first Mafia MXXXII: Dynasty Warriors Mafia.
And I think I'm getting more of a feeling for the game, and the players involved: many of which are also playing in this game.
This should be very interesting. . .
Looking forward to it.

All you need to know is vote: Robz.

Don't forget to vote: sudgy

OMGUS Vote: chairs[b/]

Are you afraid I'm voting you for all the wrong reasons?

...Why are you voting me?

[Lekkit]

Rvs hasn't started yet, guys...

[mail-mi]

Rvs hasn't started yet, guys...

vote: lekkit

[Lekkit]

D:

[chairs]

I've been reading over the link you sent me to the first Mafia MXXXII: Dynasty Warriors Mafia.
And I think I'm getting more of a feeling for the game, and the players involved: many of which are also playing in this game.
This should be very interesting. . .
Looking forward to it.

All you need to know is vote: Robz.

Don't forget to vote: sudgy

OMGUS Vote: chairs[b/]

Are you afraid I'm voting you for all the wrong reasons?

...Why are you voting me?

Because you're the SK.

[2.71828.....]

/in

[Teproc]

I've been reading over the link you sent me to the first Mafia MXXXII: Dynasty Warriors Mafia.
And I think I'm getting more of a feeling for the game, and the players involved: many of which are also playing in this game.
This should be very interesting. . .
Looking forward to it.

All you need to know is vote: Robz.

Don't forget to vote: sudgy

OMGUS Vote: chairs[b/]

Are you afraid I'm voting you for all the wrong reasons?

...Why are you voting me?

Because you're the SK.

SK hunting ? That's a scumtell for sure.

vote: chairs

[yuma]

I am dead in all games! This one needs 2 more!

[Morgrim7]

/I'm cause I'm dead in Rmm

[Morgrim7]

*in

[Ichimaru Gin]

Just one more person. . . I can't wait!

[mail-mi]

/in

[2.71828.....]

See further set-up and deadline information in Post 2.

I assume it will be similar to what is posted on the mafiascum wiki for JK9++?

[mcmcsalot]

See further set-up and deadline information in Post 2.

I assume it will be similar to what is posted on the mafiascum wiki for JK9++?

Lots of info to come around 12:40, 1:30, or 3.

[Morgrim7]

/out

[faust]

I'll /in here as soon as I'm dead in either RMM11 or MXXXV, or one of those has ended.

[Eevee]

Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back /in.

[yuma]

Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back /in.

YAY!!!!

[MercurialEnemi]

/in
Hey, whats up Everybody?
Im newto the forum, and am here mainly for mafia, although this is my first game
yellow spotted lizards and onion juice anyone?

[Eevee]

A warm welcome, that's what's up!

[Voltaire]

/in
Hey, whats up Everybody?
Im newto the forum, and am here mainly for mafia, although this is my first game
yellow spotted lizards and onion juice anyone?

Box/morgrim hybrid?

[Teproc]

This makes 13 right ? Awesome.

[MercurialEnemi]

Thanks for the welcome, nice and prompt!
Is your profile a pokemon?

Box/Morgrim?!?
I no know such things

ERP= Enterprise resource planning part of my verify human letter series

[sudgy]

yellow spotted lizards and onion juice anyone?

I LOVE THAT MOVIE

[mcmcsalot]

So the last spots go to eevee and mercurial enemi. We're full! Should be able to open it anytime starting tonight. I'll check out when's good. And still looking for a co-mod though it shouldn't be as bad as last time

[Eevee]

[Voltaire]

The later the better for me, generically speaking, but don't delay the game because of me!

[Voltaire]

Claiming both role, and flavor will be allowed this game. Flavor does follow logically the events of Dynasty Warriors.

If this is true, will scum have fake claims?

[Eevee]

The later the better for me, generically speaking, but don't delay the game because of me!

But it's been too long!

[Voltaire]

but don't delay the game because of me!

 

[2.71828.....]

I am good with starting whenever, I just may not be able to be as active right out of the gate.  Next week is a relatively busy work week for me.

[mcmcsalot]

Claiming both role, and flavor will be allowed this game. Flavor does follow logically the events of Dynasty Warriors.

If this is true, will scum have fake claims?

Scum will have what I give them, you will not know what that is, though I can say  that information will be given to everyone.

[mcmcsalot]

I also have finals next week. We will see I am thinking I will start this soon.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I also have finals next week.

Same here. But I am also really eager to start this game. So maybe it'll start just a little bit slower than normal?
Even with finals, I'm still going to have a fair amount of time.

So how exactly does flavor claiming work? Does that just mean that when we claim we can also claim flavor (names, etc)?

[yuma]

Start it immediately! Tonight!

[Eevee]

Start it immediately! Tonight!

Listen to the man!

[mcmcsalot]

Working on it, if everyone is okay with a quick day 1(7 IRL days) I can have PM's out within an hour and start midday tomorrow.

[yuma]

Working on it, if everyone is okay with a quick day 1(7 IRL days) I can have PM's out within an hour and start midday tomorrow.

Huzzah! But I would suggest letting mafia have more than 1/2 day for talking... Some might not even be aware they were mafia in that time period and miss the night0 talk.

[mcmcsalot]

Working on it, if everyone is okay with a quick day 1(7 IRL days) I can have PM's out within an hour and start midday tomorrow.

Huzzah! But I would suggest letting mafia have more than 1/2 day for talking... Some might not even be aware they were mafia in that time period and miss the night0 talk.

this is true, I guess i could probably let things play out longer and just write a tooooooon of flavor to leave my co-mod.

[mcmcsalot]

I also have finals next week.

Same here. But I am also really eager to start this game. So maybe it'll start just a little bit slower than normal?
Even with finals, I'm still going to have a fair amount of time.

So how exactly does flavor claiming work? Does that just mean that when we claim we can also claim flavor (names, etc)?

Yes it means if you want you can claim to be Meng Huo of the Nanaman Clan. That would be silly because he has no business being anywhere near Chi Bi but you know you could say that. Flavor will relate directly to alignment so heads up, don't claim Cao Cao

[Teproc]

I understand exactly nothing in this post. This should be fun.

[mcmcsalot]

I understand exactly nothing in this post. This should be fun.

There might be links and things and stuff in your pm to help ya out.

[Eevee]

That sounds.. very hard for scum that doesn't know the show (game?).

[Voltaire]

That sounds.. very hard for scum that doesn't know the show (game?).

Yeah, that's my concern. If they don't have provided fake claims, they'll have to claim someone obscure (suspicious) or obviously town (risk that the flavor was assigned to someone town). The game could be broken by a flavor claim D1.

[mcmcsalot]

That sounds.. very hard for scum that doesn't know the show (game?).

Jeez people, everything will be explained.

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

[mcmcsalot]

That sounds.. very hard for scum that doesn't know the show (game?).

Yeah, that's my concern. If they don't have provided fake claims, they'll have to claim someone obscure (suspicious) or obviously town (risk that the flavor was assigned to someone town). The game could be broken by a flavor claim D1.

Just wait for the PM's and Night one info then if ya got stuff to cry about message me!

[Eevee]

Just making sure you thought of it!

[mcmcsalot]

Welcome to The Battle of The Red Cliffs!

After the events of HuLao, the land was divided into the 3 kingdoms.

Here at the Yangtze River, Wu, Shu, and Wei prepare for battle.

All the warriors gathered should be receiving battle instructions soon. These instruction's will inform you of your Kingdom(Alignment), Name(Flavor), and Role. The game developers have been quite busy working on Dynasty Warriors UltimaXtremeEsNumeroUnolegends 5... so some characters will be using a generic stock model. These are known as No Face Officers(Vanilla Townie)

[mcmcsalot]

Day 1 Begins!
Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (13): Voltaire, Robz888, mail-mi, Chairs, Ashersky, Yuma, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit, Liopoil, Teproc, 2.7, Eevee, Faust

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Deceber, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[2.71828.....]

FIRST

[chairs]

vote: e

[Voltaire]

Oh no I'm in too many games again!

vote: Lekkit I have so many first-time-playing-with options!

[2.71828.....]

OMGUS

vote: chairs

[Voltaire]

Also, massclaim and win? I don't see how mafia can claim any role but VT, and they might have trouble claiming a town alignment too. Point it out if there is something I'm not seeing.

[ashersky]

Don't we have the same problem as in C9++ that mass claiming D1 doesn't work?

[Voltaire]

Don't we have the same problem as in C9++ that mass claiming D1 doesn't work?

Maybe, but I'm more talking about the fact that flavor relates to alignment and it seems like mafia may not have been given fake claims?

[ashersky]

Don't we have the same problem as in C9++ that mass claiming D1 doesn't work?

Maybe, but I'm more talking about the fact that flavor relates to alignment and it seems like mafia may not have been given fake claims?

I think the fake claim is in thread, no?

[Voltaire]

I think the fake claim is in thread, no?

What are you referring to?

[2.71828.....]

Also, massclaim and win? I don't see how mafia can claim any role but VT, and they might have trouble claiming a town alignment too. Point it out if there is something I'm not seeing.

say what?  I need to reread the setup if you think this works.

[ashersky]

That sounds.. very hard for scum that doesn't know the show (game?).

Jeez people, everything will be explained.

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

I thought this was the fake claim info, plus a no face post later.

All before PMs.

[ashersky]

Also, massclaim and win? I don't see how mafia can claim any role but VT, and they might have trouble claiming a town alignment too. Point it out if there is something I'm not seeing.

say what?  I need to reread the setup if you think this works.

 A mass role claim doesn't work.  I don't think a flavor claim works, either, but I don't mind claiming a color if we want.

[Voltaire]

That sounds.. very hard for scum that doesn't know the show (game?).

Jeez people, everything will be explained.

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

I thought this was the fake claim info, plus a no face post later.

All before PMs.

But we also have a flavor name. Can we claim flavor name? Unless scum were provided with fake flavor names, they're caught. The "No Face" is just to remind people that's the flavor for VT (same as last game) I assume.

[Teproc]

Seriously, we're already talking about massclaiming ?

I'm probably against it, I'll think about it some more. Flavour claim seems pointless, this is a normal game after all, but whatever, I guess it can get discussion started.

Did flavour matter in the last iteration of this game ?

[Voltaire]

Seriously, we're already talking about massclaiming ?

I'm probably against it, I'll think about it some more. Flavour claim seems pointless, this is a normal game after all, but whatever, I guess it can get discussion started.

Did flavour matter in the last iteration of this game ?

I guess I shouldn't have said mass(role) claim. I mean mass flavor claim. I currently think we should. Flavor mattered SO MUCH last game that claiming it was forbidden (like, if it were Star Trek mafia then McCoy was clearly the Doctor, that sort of thing).

[Voltaire]

Claiming both role, and flavor will be allowed this game. Flavor does follow logically the events of Dynasty Warriors.

If this is true, will scum have fake claims?

Scum will have what I give them, you will not know what that is, though I can say  that information will be given to everyone.

OK, this is what is confusing me. It is very unclear if scum were given fake claims or not. I have to assume they were, I guess? It's also unclear if "that information" refers to us being told what scum were given (we were not) or if it refers to general information being laid out for everyone (which is true, in that red and green = good guys and blue = bad guys, and "No Face" = "VT").

[Robz888]

This is starting up at a really bad time for me, unfortunately. Don't expect much from me this week.

I just skimmed the posts so far. I think we could kingdom claim at least. Flavor claim possibly but I need to think about this. Wait, that's just straight up outing PRs, right?

[Voltaire]

This is starting up at a really bad time for me, unfortunately. Don't expect much from me this week.

I just skimmed the posts so far. I think we could kingdom claim at least. Flavor claim possibly but I need to think about this. Wait, that's just straight up outing PRs, right?

I don't think so? Would it be? You know the flavor way more than everyone else. If it is, it should out scum too right?

[Robz888]

Additionally I know a ton about the flavor for this game. I can do like a big explanation of what happened in the Battle of the Red Cliffs if that's helpful. But not like until tonight at the earliest.

[Voltaire]

Additionally I know a ton about the flavor for this game. I can do like a big explanation of what happened in the Battle of the Red Cliffs if that's helpful. But not like until tonight at the earliest.

That would actually be fantastically helpful. Take your time, the game is new.

[Robz888]

This is starting up at a really bad time for me, unfortunately. Don't expect much from me this week.

I just skimmed the posts so far. I think we could kingdom claim at least. Flavor claim possibly but I need to think about this. Wait, that's just straight up outing PRs, right?

I don't think so? Would it be? You know the flavor way more than everyone else. If it is, it should out scum too right?

Well scum will just lie.

[Teproc]

Wikipedia exist, I've taken a quick look. The GoT fans among you might recognize a certain move made by the southern navy, it's pretty funny.

[Robz888]

Oh! But they don't know who to say they are instead . Yes, mass claim immediately

[Robz888]

Oh! But they don't know who to say they are instead . Yes, mass claim immediately

Wait it can't be that easy. How do we know they dot have fake claims? Mcmc said that?

[Teproc]

I think you guys have low confidence in mcmcs's ability to mod a game if you think a mass flavour claim will out scum. It seems more likely to help scum find PRs to me now that I think of it.

[Voltaire]

Oh! But they don't know who to say they are instead . Yes, mass claim immediately

Exactly.

PPE: See what I quoted. It's unclear. When Eevee and I were asking pre-game he never straight-up said "mafia will have fake claims".

[Voltaire]

I think you guys have low confidence in mcmcs's ability to mod a game if you think a mass flavour claim will out scum. It seems more likely to help scum find PRs to me now that I think of it.

Yes, it would out PRs. It would also out scum. The reason why I'm thinking about this so much is last game flavor claiming was forbidden because it would break the game. This time flavor claiming is allowed, but that it still "Flavor does follow logically the events of Dynasty Warriors."

[Teproc]

My guess is he didn't to encourage us to have a discussion about it (if we knew they had fake claims we wouldn't even be discussing it right ?). But I don't think it could out scum because that would be stupid.

[chairs]

Oh! But they don't know who to say they are instead . Yes, mass claim immediately

Are we already so sold this is a good idea?  Based on my read of the setup, anybody who actually has a name to claim is a PR.

[Teproc]

Is there any way flavour claiming can be good for town without the game being broken ?

[Voltaire]

Oh! But they don't know who to say they are instead . Yes, mass claim immediately

Are we already so sold this is a good idea?  Based on my read of the setup, anybody who actually has a name to claim is a PR.

Really? Maybe that's the source of my confusion.

Huge town read on Robz btw.

[ashersky]

Let's try this.

I'm Zhang Fei.  Does that help anyone figure anything out about how flavor claiming will help us catch scum?

[Teproc]

Wait, what ? We haven't reached an agreement yet !

[Voltaire]

Wait, what ? We haven't reached an agreement yet !

Have you read the last game? 

[Voltaire]

Let's try this.

I'm Zhang Fei.  Does that help anyone figure anything out about how flavor claiming will help us catch scum?

No idea. I think Robz needs to tell us.

Also

Based on my read of the setup, anybody who actually has a name to claim is a PR.

vote: chairs

[Robz888]

Let's try this.

I'm Zhang Fei.  Does that help anyone figure anything out about how flavor claiming will help us catch scum?

Well, there are roles that like Zhang Fei would be more likely to have than others. Zhang Fei is a face officer, so you are a PR? Lets not keep doing this until fake claim existence is clarified. Someone read the PRe game chatter please

[Teproc]

I have not. I'm sure it's hilarious. But I'm pretty worried right now, I don't think flavour claiming can be good for town without being broken here. Unless someone can explain that to me, I'm against it.

Zhang Fei is a random southern general I think. So a good guy, obviously, but probably not a PR. That's just from skimming Wikipedia a few days ago though.

[Robz888]

Ignore teprocs comment, it is ill informed I think. Dam it I really need laptop access

[Teproc]

Also

Based on my read of the setup, anybody who actually has a name to claim is a PR.

The "No Face" is just to remind people that's the flavor for VT (same as last game) I assume.

vote: chairs
[/quote]

Didn't you say the same thing ?

[Robz888]

I don't know how to confirm whether all face officers are PRs and whether scum have fake claims, or even if these things are already known.

[Teproc]

Messed up my quote.

And yeah, ignore me, I only said something because I thought Robz wasn't there right now and I recognized the name. HIt would be nice having someone else knowledgeable though, because if Robz is scum and he's the only one who knows about the flavour, we're kinda screwed ?

[Voltaire]

I have not. I'm sure it's hilarious.

The point is, ash was a PR and claimed immediately. If he's a PR here, he knows revealing his flavor risks revealing that, so he's comfortable with it.

Robz, I have reviewed the pre-game. mcmc pointedly refused to say mafia have fake-claims, but did say that they will be given...something unknown.

And unvote.

I found this:

So how exactly does flavor claiming work? Does that just mean that when we claim we can also claim flavor (names, etc)?

Yes it means if you want you can claim to be Meng Huo of the Nanaman Clan. That would be silly because he has no business being anywhere near Chi Bi but you know you could say that. Flavor will relate directly to alignment so heads up, don't claim Cao Cao

[Voltaire]

Didn't you say the same thing ?

"No Face" doesn't mean "no name".

[ashersky]

Teproc, you are currently voting chairs now, due to your broken quote.  You can unvote or not, but thought I'd point it out.

I believe mcmc would not leave scum out to dry with flavor claims.

[Voltaire]

Just wait for the PM's and Night one info then if ya got stuff to cry about message me!

Also scum may not know things until N1?

[Robz888]

Is ash a PR tho? Do I want us to know that?

[ashersky]

The point is, ash was a PR and claimed immediately. If he's a PR here, he knows revealing his flavor risks revealing that, so he's comfortable with it.

In DW1, I knew the set-up like the back of my hand, and with the IC, I knew claiming my role there was going to help (and it did).

I'm not claiming PR/Not PR right now.  Just willing to out my flavor name to see if it helps us decide if everyone should do it.

[Teproc]

Oh thanks ash, didn't realise that.

unvote

That would be an embarassing hammer if that kind of stuff happened.

[Robz888]

I have to stop posting, I'm on the bus to the metro now and I get carsick. Sorry!

[Voltaire]

The point is, ash was a PR and claimed immediately. If he's a PR here, he knows revealing his flavor risks revealing that, so he's comfortable with it.

In DW1, I knew the set-up like the back of my hand, and with the IC, I knew claiming my role there was going to help (and it did).

I'm not claiming PR/Not PR right now.  Just willing to out my flavor name to see if it helps us decide if everyone should do it.

Well, based on what Robz has said your flavor name makes you more likely to be a PR. I guess the two of you will have to somehow figure out if that is a good thing or not? Hergh.

I've quoted already everything mcmc said about claims & stuff since the day started if you look back at my posts.

Small town read on Teproc I think. Maybe. But a big one on Robz.

[Voltaire]

Where can I find a list of who is a "face officer" and who is a "no-face" officer for these characters? I'm at a loss.

[2.71828.....]

I don't know Dynasty Warriors, so mass-claiming flavor names will not really help me.  However, it could be really useful to certain PR town members (Robz?) as they make decisions for night actions.  I like flavor name claiming. 

I am Zhuge Liang

[Voltaire]

I don't know Dynasty Warriors, so mass-claiming flavor names will not really help me.  However, it could be really useful to certain PR town members (Robz?) as they make decisions for night actions.  I like flavor name claiming. 

I am Zhuge Liang

Hold up. No-one else do this right now. Are you aware we are currently unclear if this just outs all our PRs?

[Teproc]

Why ? Seriously, why ? Why would you do that ? Half the people in the game haven't even posted yet and you guys are claiming flavor names ? What's the rush exactly ?

And Zhuge Liang is a very important guy I think. Robz will confirm/infirm this obviously.

[Voltaire]

The point is, ash was a PR and claimed immediately. If he's a PR here, he knows revealing his flavor risks revealing that, so he's comfortable with it.

In DW1, I knew the set-up like the back of my hand, and with the IC, I knew claiming my role there was going to help (and it did).

Right, which is why I trust you here after you said your name - you're either a PR willing to be outed D1, a VT taking a reasonable risk, or scum seeing if they can get away with their claim/mislead town.

[ashersky]

I don't know Dynasty Warriors, so mass-claiming flavor names will not really help me.  However, it could be really useful to certain PR town members (Robz?) as they make decisions for night actions.  I like flavor name claiming.

Or, you know, certain scum.

[Voltaire]

I don't know Dynasty Warriors, so mass-claiming flavor names will not really help me.  However, it could be really useful to certain PR town members (Robz?) as they make decisions for night actions.  I like flavor name claiming.

Or, you know, certain scum.

How? We're not playing a variant, it's not like the Bus Driver would need to know the flavor names of each player.

[Teproc]

I think the point is, if Robz is scum he could know someone is a PR and tell us he's town ?

I'm really worried about that. Does no one else know Dynasty Warriors at all ? Having one source only is very dangerous, and a big part of the reason we should not flavour/name claim at all I think.

[Teproc]

tell us he's a VT*

[2.71828.....]

I don't know Dynasty Warriors, so mass-claiming flavor names will not really help me.  However, it could be really useful to certain PR town members (Robz?) as they make decisions for night actions.  I like flavor name claiming.

Or, you know, certain scum.

How? We're not playing a variant, it's not like the Bus Driver would need to know the flavor names of each player.

No, he wouldn't.  But it might inform their decision a little more.

[chairs]

I know some about Dynasty Warriors.

[Voltaire]

I think the point is, if Robz is scum he could know someone is a PR and tell us he's town ?

I'm really worried about that. Does no one else know Dynasty Warriors at all ? Having one source only is very dangerous, and a big part of the reason we should not flavour/name claim at all I think.

That's why I asked if there's a wiki with a list of who the Face Officers and No-Face Officers are. Because I went to ash's name's page and it doesn't say he's face or no-face, so I'm quite confused.

Also, I do think I want to vote: chairs.

[2.71828.....]

All the warriors gathered should be receiving battle instructions soon. These instruction's will inform you of your Kingdom(Alignment), Name(Flavor), and Role. The game developers have been quite busy working on Dynasty Warriors UltimaXtremeEsNumeroUnolegends 5... so some characters will be using a generic stock model. These are known as No Face Officers(Vanilla Townie)

JK9++ is a setup with a variable amount of town PRs.  Just because someone has a name that may be "powerful" in the story does not mean it will be a PR.  I think what I bolded here seems to imply that "face" and "no-face" officers will not be able to be distinguished due to flavor name.

[chairs]

All the warriors gathered should be receiving battle instructions soon. These instruction's will inform you of your Kingdom(Alignment), Name(Flavor), and Role. The game developers have been quite busy working on Dynasty Warriors UltimaXtremeEsNumeroUnolegends 5... so some characters will be using a generic stock model. These are known as No Face Officers(Vanilla Townie)

JK9++ is a setup with a variable amount of town PRs.  Just because someone has a name that may be "powerful" in the story does not mean it will be a PR.  I think what I bolded here seems to imply that "face" and "no-face" officers will not be able to be distinguished due to flavor name.

When I read what you bolded, I get the exact opposite impression as you do.  I specifically read that as "Vanilla Townies will be "No Face Officers" in their PM, rather than a named officer".

[Voltaire]

All the warriors gathered should be receiving battle instructions soon. These instruction's will inform you of your Kingdom(Alignment), Name(Flavor), and Role. The game developers have been quite busy working on Dynasty Warriors UltimaXtremeEsNumeroUnolegends 5... so some characters will be using a generic stock model. These are known as No Face Officers(Vanilla Townie)

JK9++ is a setup with a variable amount of town PRs.  Just because someone has a name that may be "powerful" in the story does not mean it will be a PR.  I think what I bolded here seems to imply that "face" and "no-face" officers will not be able to be distinguished due to flavor name.

Interesting. It either means that or that everyone is a Face Officer. Either way, seems to make claiming safe.

Also, his advice about not to claim Cao Cao is the kind of thing that makes me wonder if claims weren't provided.

[ashersky]

I think the danger in outing PRs is that scum then knows who the PRs are.   And then they can kill them at night.

That is the danger in flavor claiming.

The flip side is if it outs scum, or puts scum in a small lynch pool we can kill off a day at a time, it may not matter who our PRs are.

[Voltaire]

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

[Teproc]

What's your thinking about chairs ? I didn't get your vote and I don't get the unvote either. Unless it's something you can't / don't want to share yet.

[Voltaire]

Unless it's something you can't / don't want to share yet.

[chairs]

I think the point is, if Robz is scum he could know someone is a PR and tell us he's town ?

I'm really worried about that. Does no one else know Dynasty Warriors at all ? Having one source only is very dangerous, and a big part of the reason we should not flavour/name claim at all I think.

That's why I asked if there's a wiki with a list of who the Face Officers and No-Face Officers are. Because I went to ash's name's page and it doesn't say he's face or no-face, so I'm quite confused.

Also, I do think I want to vote: chairs.

Please see my most recent statement.  "no face officers" are literally just "generic officer A" - people without a special face - or at least that's my impression of the data provided to us.  I believe that claiming names outs our PRs, albeit with the potential that we can WIFOM with scum regarding whether they claim No Face or a named officer.

PPE:

I think the danger in outing PRs is that scum then knows who the PRs are.   And then they can kill them at night.

That is the danger in flavor claiming.

The flip side is if it outs scum, or puts scum in a small lynch pool we can kill off a day at a time, it may not matter who our PRs are.

My concern is that I don't think the lynch pool will be sufficiently small, and we have to WIFOM whether scum will claim VT (by claiming No Face) or PR (by providing a name).

[Voltaire]

I think the point is, if Robz is scum he could know someone is a PR and tell us he's town ?

I'm really worried about that. Does no one else know Dynasty Warriors at all ? Having one source only is very dangerous, and a big part of the reason we should not flavour/name claim at all I think.

That's why I asked if there's a wiki with a list of who the Face Officers and No-Face Officers are. Because I went to ash's name's page and it doesn't say he's face or no-face, so I'm quite confused.

Also, I do think I want to vote: chairs.

Please see my most recent statement.  "no face officers" are literally just "generic officer A" - people without a special face - or at least that's my impression of the data provided to us.  I believe that claiming names outs our PRs, albeit with the potential that we can WIFOM with scum regarding whether they claim No Face or a named officer.

PPE:

I think the danger in outing PRs is that scum then knows who the PRs are.   And then they can kill them at night.

That is the danger in flavor claiming.

The flip side is if it outs scum, or puts scum in a small lynch pool we can kill off a day at a time, it may not matter who our PRs are.

My concern is that I don't think the lynch pool will be sufficiently small, and we have to WIFOM whether scum will claim VT (by claiming No Face) or PR (by providing a name).

Again, my interpretation is that "No Face" and "no name" are not the same thing.

[2.71828.....]

Again, my interpretation is that "No Face" and "no name" are not the same thing.

I agree.

[Voltaire]

I'm back to vote: Lekkit. To the scumhunting, gentlemen. Robz may or may not be able to help us with this flavor stuff later.

So far I think chairs is town, small town reads on e and Robz, null on everyone else.

[chairs]

I think the point is, if Robz is scum he could know someone is a PR and tell us he's town ?

I'm really worried about that. Does no one else know Dynasty Warriors at all ? Having one source only is very dangerous, and a big part of the reason we should not flavour/name claim at all I think.

That's why I asked if there's a wiki with a list of who the Face Officers and No-Face Officers are. Because I went to ash's name's page and it doesn't say he's face or no-face, so I'm quite confused.

Also, I do think I want to vote: chairs.

Please see my most recent statement.  "no face officers" are literally just "generic officer A" - people without a special face - or at least that's my impression of the data provided to us.  I believe that claiming names outs our PRs, albeit with the potential that we can WIFOM with scum regarding whether they claim No Face or a named officer.

PPE:

I think the danger in outing PRs is that scum then knows who the PRs are.   And then they can kill them at night.

That is the danger in flavor claiming.

The flip side is if it outs scum, or puts scum in a small lynch pool we can kill off a day at a time, it may not matter who our PRs are.

My concern is that I don't think the lynch pool will be sufficiently small, and we have to WIFOM whether scum will claim VT (by claiming No Face) or PR (by providing a name).

Again, my interpretation is that "No Face" and "no name" are not the same thing.

My interpretation is that they are.  This is based on last game, where they were.


Scum to chum:
Teproc
<null group>
Robz
ashersky
Voltaire

[Voltaire]

e, what alignment do you think chairs has?

[Teproc]

What makes me scummy ?

[chairs]

What makes me scummy ?

You're against claiming, but I felt your reasoning was kind of forced given we have THE POWER OF THE INTERNET.

[chairs]

(Note that I'm also against claiming, I just find your line of reasoning kind of scummy).

[Teproc]

Ok. That's not my only reason to be against it though. The other one is that I have trouble seeing a scenario where flavour claiming is good for town without being broken. There probably is, but I just don't see it myself.

[chairs]

Ok. That's not my only reason to be against it though. The other one is that I have trouble seeing a scenario where flavour claiming is good for town without being broken. There probably is, but I just don't see it myself.

Fair enough.  I can see it being beneficial in certain scenarios, mostly to strengthen the claim of a given role (presumably certain characters will be more likely to contain certain roles, for example), but overall I don't think it's terribly beneficial D1.

[2.71828.....]

This game will be run as a straight up JK9++

Days Will last roughly 10 days each and Night will last roughly 2 days.

Claiming both role, and flavor will be allowed this game. Flavor does follow logically the events of Dynasty Warriors.

I also have finals next week.

Same here. But I am also really eager to start this game. So maybe it'll start just a little bit slower than normal?
Even with finals, I'm still going to have a fair amount of time.

So how exactly does flavor claiming work? Does that just mean that when we claim we can also claim flavor (names, etc)?

Yes it means if you want you can claim to be Meng Huo of the Nanaman Clan. That would be silly because he has no business being anywhere near Chi Bi but you know you could say that. Flavor will relate directly to alignment so heads up, don't claim Cao Cao

Basically, it reads to me like flavor will help with alignments, but not too much because flavor will not logically follow the events of Dynasty Warriors. 

PPE: I will get to chairs next

[Voltaire]

Basically, it reads to me like flavor will help with alignments, but not too much because flavor will not logically follow the events of Dynasty Warriors. 

How do you come to that conclusion? It's literally the exact opposite of what you quoted.

[chairs]

vote: e lynch all liars.

[2.71828.....]

Basically, it reads to me like flavor will help with alignments, but not too much because flavor will not logically follow the events of Dynasty Warriors. 

How do you come to that conclusion? It's literally the exact opposite of what you quoted.

oh

yeah

i read that wrong

[ashersky]

I will say, I have to imagine all players in the game have a flavor NAME they can claim.  I mean, we were all provided with names in the last one, and I think mcmc loves the flavor too much to NOT assign names.

[Voltaire]

I will say, I have to imagine all players in the game have a flavor NAME they can claim.  I mean, we were all provided with names in the last one, and I think mcmc loves the flavor too much to NOT assign names.

What's your read on chairs?

[ashersky]

I will say, I have to imagine all players in the game have a flavor NAME they can claim.  I mean, we were all provided with names in the last one, and I think mcmc loves the flavor too much to NOT assign names.

What's your read on chairs?

He's clearly the vig.

[ashersky]

I will say, I have to imagine all players in the game have a flavor NAME they can claim.  I mean, we were all provided with names in the last one, and I think mcmc loves the flavor too much to NOT assign names.

What's your read on chairs?

In all seriousness, top scum read, along with Teproc.  Hesitance/fear of the claiming TALK, even before the claiming, is a scum tell.

I mean, hardcore NO WAY BAD IDEA would have been fine.  But the "hmm, hrmmm, plrbst" stuff looks bad, like fear.

[liopoil]

well dang. All this and I haven't even posted yet... and I doubt I'm alone in that. How many people haven't posted yet and we already have potential strong reads on people based on flavor claims?

I really doubt that flavor claiming could give us a positive benefit. I mean, the whole point of flavor is that it's unrelated to the real game, right? I'll gladly flavor claim if it does indeed give us a benefit, but if this is the case I think it pretty much goes against the idea of the game and isn't really what I signed up for.

[mail-mi]

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

vote: Voltaire too many town reads so early in the game.

[2.71828.....]

As far as chairs goes.  I think he could be either scum or town.  The only thing we have so far is that he is anti-claim

First of all, it is clear that everyone is given a name.  That name also has a direct correlation to your status as town or scum.

scum reasons to oppose claim:  You were not given fake-claims.  You will have to do some work to figure out a good fake-claim, then hope no one counterclaims you. 

town reason for opposing claim:  You believe it will out PRs. 

Now, I do not think that the town reasoning is solid.  I think that both VTs and town PRs will have names that are indistinguishable from each other.  Further, the town reasoning against claiming flavor is not really awesome either.  Again, I believe that VT and PR names will be somewhat indistinguishable.  Since we merely disagree that town would oppose claiming, I do not think that it is enough to say that chairs is scum yet, but I am suspicious.

Now, another reason town might want to avoid claiming is because you also believe that scum have fake claims which makes the exercise pointless.  This is entirely false.  What this is doing is forcing everyone to get an opinion down.  Either anti-claim, pro-claim (not claimed), or pro-claim (claimed) that we can use later to figure things out.

[Voltaire]

I will say, I have to imagine all players in the game have a flavor NAME they can claim.  I mean, we were all provided with names in the last one, and I think mcmc loves the flavor too much to NOT assign names.

What's your read on chairs?

In all seriousness, top scum read, along with Teproc.  Hesitance/fear of the claiming TALK, even before the claiming, is a scum tell.

I mean, hardcore NO WAY BAD IDEA would have been fine.  But the "hmm, hrmmm, plrbst" stuff looks bad, like fear.

Agree regarding Teproc.

In my opinion chairs has committed a town!slip. Or a scum!slip. So probably a town!slip. The trick is it's one of those "it hurts town to explain why" situations.

well dang. All this and I haven't even posted yet... and I doubt I'm alone in that. How many people haven't posted yet and we already have potential strong reads on people based on flavor claims?

I really doubt that flavor claiming could give us a positive benefit. I mean, the whole point of flavor is that it's unrelated to the real game, right? I'll gladly flavor claim if it does indeed give us a benefit, but if this is the case I think it pretty much goes against the idea of the game and isn't really what I signed up for.

I have no reads based on flavor claims! I don't think anyone does! I have strong reads based on how people have reacted/talked about flavor claims. FoS: liopoil.

[Voltaire]

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

vote: Voltaire too many town reads so early in the game.

Have you read all my posts?

[liopoil]

well dang. All this and I haven't even posted yet... and I doubt I'm alone in that. How many people haven't posted yet and we already have potential strong reads on people based on flavor claims?

I really doubt that flavor claiming could give us a positive benefit. I mean, the whole point of flavor is that it's unrelated to the real game, right? I'll gladly flavor claim if it does indeed give us a benefit, but if this is the case I think it pretty much goes against the idea of the game and isn't really what I signed up for.

I have no reads based on flavor claims! I don't think anyone does! I have strong reads based on how people have reacted/talked about flavor claims. FoS: liopoil.

that's what I meant. And those reads are even necessarily bad to have at this point, I might agree with them (not entirely caught up yet)

[Teproc]

If the claim does nothing, why does it matter who was for or against it ?

The way I see it :
- scum doesn't have any fake claim. We massclaim names and we win. This has a 0% chance to happen because the game would just be stupid if it were the case
- scum does have fake claims. PRs and VTs are undistinguishable. This gives us nothing. I fail to see how it would be relevant to see who is for or against it if the claiming accomplishes nothing.
- scum does have fake claims. PRs and VTs are recognizable. Yay, we just outed PRs !

I think the second option is by far the most likely, and I don't see the point of it. Since there is a risk that the third option is a thing, I'm against it, and I assume scum would be in favor (which is not to say I assume everyone in favor would be scum).

[ashersky]

In my opinion chairs has committed a town!slip. Or a scum!slip. So probably a town!slip. The trick is it's one of those "it hurts town to explain why" situations.

Time for a rage vote Voltaire.  Scumslip talk?  You hate scumslips.  Is yuma here?  Holy crap.  Ha!

[mail-mi]

Totally anti-claim. Mcmc would have given scum fakeclaims and it night oust PRs. They will probably be different flavor-wise. I don't wanna bet the ~ 2% chance scum don't have fakeclaims against the ~55% chance it'll give away PRs.

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

vote: Voltaire too many town reads so early in the game.

Have you read all my posts?

Yes, just wanting to get down a semi serious vote for now.

[Voltaire]

In my opinion chairs has committed a town!slip. Or a scum!slip. So probably a town!slip. The trick is it's one of those "it hurts town to explain why" situations.

Time for a rage vote Voltaire.  Scumslip talk?  You hate scumslips.  Is yuma here?  Holy crap.  Ha!

Yeah, so it's clearly not a scum!slip. The last sentence is the part that matters. How insane/risky are we comfortable with me being? It's probably not worth it.

[Teproc]

See, mail-mi gets it.

[ashersky]

In my opinion chairs has committed a town!slip. Or a scum!slip. So probably a town!slip. The trick is it's one of those "it hurts town to explain why" situations.

Time for a rage vote Voltaire.  Scumslip talk?  You hate scumslips.  Is yuma here?  Holy crap.  Ha!

Yeah, so it's clearly not a scum!slip. The last sentence is the part that matters. How insane/risky are we comfortable with me being? It's probably not worth it.

This early in the game?  Definitely worth keeping things under wraps.  Later in the game, more info is better for the town.

[Voltaire]

What do we make of mcmc's "wait for N1" comment?

[Teproc]

In my opinion chairs has committed a town!slip. Or a scum!slip. So probably a town!slip. The trick is it's one of those "it hurts town to explain why" situations.

Time for a rage vote Voltaire.  Scumslip talk?  You hate scumslips.  Is yuma here?  Holy crap.  Ha!

Yeah, so it's clearly not a scum!slip. The last sentence is the part that matters. How insane/risky are we comfortable with me being? It's probably not worth it.

I'm fine with you not clarifying. If we get a serious wagon on you or chairs you'll have to say more, but I don't see any necessity until then. It also doesn't change the way I read chairs in any way to me.

[Voltaire]

This early in the game?  Definitely worth keeping things under wraps.  Later in the game, more info is better for the town.

Since when is this how ashersky plays? vote: ashersky.

[Ichimaru Gin]

well dang. All this and I haven't even posted yet... and I doubt I'm alone in that.

You aren't. I know absolutely nothing about dynasty warriors. And am somewhat confused as to the importance of flavor.

If the claim does nothing, why does it matter who was for or against it ?

The way I see it :
- scum doesn't have any fake claim. We massclaim names and we win. This has a 0% chance to happen because the game would just be stupid if it were the case
- scum does have fake claims. PRs and VTs are undistinguishable. This gives us nothing. I fail to see how it would be relevant to see who is for or against it if the claiming accomplishes nothing.
- scum does have fake claims. PRs and VTs are recognizable. Yay, we just outed PRs !

I think the second option is by far the most likely, and I don't see the point of it. Since there is a risk that the third option is a thing, I'm against it, and I assume scum would be in favor (which is not to say I assume everyone in favor would be scum).

So it's possible that flavor could reveal whether you're a PR or not? As I said, I know absolutely nothing about the flavor. But  I could just look up names on the dynasty warriors wiki or something. If scum has been provided with fake flavor names, then claiming doesn't really get town anything, does it? And it seems that options 1 and 3 would skew the game somewhat.
Sorry, just really confused about the whole flavor thing.

[Teproc]

I think he either meant night 0 or the flips we'll get after night 1.

Do you think it means we/some people will get PMs with flavour info during night 1 ? That might be a thing I guess.

[Teproc]

So it's possible that flavor could reveal whether you're a PR or not? As I said, I know absolutely nothing about the flavor. But  I could just look up names on the dynasty warriors wiki or something. If scum has been provided with fake flavor names, then claiming doesn't really get town anything, does it? And it seems that options 1 and 3 would skew the game somewhat.
Sorry, just really confused about the whole flavor thing.

This is exactly what I meant. I'm still waiting for the pro-claim people to explain to me why this line of reasoning is wrong.

[Voltaire]

So it's possible that flavor could reveal whether you're a PR or not? As I said, I know absolutely nothing about the flavor. But  I could just look up names on the dynasty warriors wiki or something. If scum has been provided with fake flavor names, then claiming doesn't really get town anything, does it? And it seems that options 1 and 3 would skew the game somewhat.
Sorry, just really confused about the whole flavor thing.

This is exactly what I meant. I'm still waiting for the pro-claim people to explain to me why this line of reasoning is wrong.

I don't know that it's wrong. I am simply suspicious since mcmc made it extremely unclear if scum have fake claims. Normally this is something a mod explains prior to a game. That's all.

[Teproc]

I believe he made it unclear to make it a strategic possibility for scum to trick town into massclaiming flavour.

[ashersky]

This early in the game?  Definitely worth keeping things under wraps.  Later in the game, more info is better for the town.

Since when is this how ashersky plays? vote: ashersky.

RVS, I assume.

Since when is it possible to define how I play?

vote: ichimaru

[Voltaire]

This early in the game?  Definitely worth keeping things under wraps.  Later in the game, more info is better for the town.

Since when is this how ashersky plays? vote: ashersky.

RVS, I assume.

Since when is it possible to define how I play?

vote: ichimaru

Nooooooooooope. Serious vote.

[ashersky]

Voting the person you yourself mentioned might be a possible town PR?  Awesome.

[2.71828.....]

If the claim does nothing, why does it matter who was for or against it ?

The way I see it :
- scum doesn't have any fake claim. We massclaim names and we win. This has a 0% chance to happen because the game would just be stupid if it were the case
- scum does have fake claims. PRs and VTs are undistinguishable. This gives us nothing. I fail to see how it would be relevant to see who is for or against it if the claiming accomplishes nothing.
- scum does have fake claims. PRs and VTs are recognizable. Yay, we just outed PRs !

I think the second option is by far the most likely, and I don't see the point of it. Since there is a risk that the third option is a thing, I'm against it, and I assume scum would be in favor (which is not to say I assume everyone in favor would be scum).

So it's possible that flavor could reveal whether you're a PR or not? As I said, I know absolutely nothing about the flavor. But  I could just look up names on the dynasty warriors wiki or something. If scum has been provided with fake flavor names, then claiming doesn't really get town anything, does it? And it seems that options 1 and 3 would skew the game somewhat.
Sorry, just really confused about the whole flavor thing.

This is exactly what I meant. I'm still waiting for the pro-claim people to explain to me why this line of reasoning is wrong.

Option 1- Unlikely, but not out of the question.  Scum would want to make it seem totally ridiculous.  Town would be likely to believe them so totally discrediting this option is easy for scum.

Option 2- Most likely.  The thing that I believe is that it is actually beneficial to town.  Maybe not right now, but as the game progresses we will learn more and forcing people to take a stand is important.

Option 3- Unlikely, but not impossible.  I think a big key here is that we have two claims rather than just one.  If you look at wiki entries for both of them (here and here), you can see the similarities and differences.  They could easily fit a PR or VT role.  Now, more in-depth knowledge might help some people, but most of us will not do the research (don't have time to do the research) to fully grasp the entire story and how that character has developed over time.  Then you throw in the fact that mcmc said he would be taking some characters and making the "stock" characters.  So a fancy description may very well have been demoted to "stock" character. 

So, in my mind, Option 3 is not really that true since names will show alignment, but not role.  Option 2 is very good because it forces people to have an opinion.  It forces people to take sides.  Which as Ashersky pointed out is good for endgame.  Which makes me think that town would want to help town and help put information out, while scum might not be so eager.  Which is why I am pro-claim (clearly).  Option 1 would be nice, however unlikely.  However,

I believe he made it unclear to make it a strategic possibility for scum to trick town into massclaiming flavour.

He might have left it ambiguous because he did not give scum fakeclaims, making it a strategic possibility for town to attempt a claim, but forcing scum to fight it.

[Teproc]

See, I just don't think these are the same things. Having this as a strategical possibility for scum is fine because town doesn't outright lose the game if scum convinces them to out their PRs. Having it as a strategical possibility for town is not fine because scum would just lose on the spot.

So, the way you see option 3 is that the info would still be very vague ? I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying, because what you're describing looks a lot like option 2 to me, functionnally.

And if it's option 2, who was for or against the claim is irrelevant. Wait, actually it wouldn't, scum would be in favor (slight chance of outing PRs) and town would be against (slight chance of outing PRs, no chance of outing scum).

So yeah, let's do it and lynch Voltaire, ashersky and 2.7. Game over.*

*This is not serious. I think there's some huge WIFOM which makes it pretty impossible to get anything out of people pro or anti-claiming position in option 2, because not all scum would be pushing for it, and some town would be pushing against it because people are wrong sometimes.

[Teproc]

*some town would be pushing for it because people are wrong sometimes. ie it wouldn't mean that all of the people pushing for it are scum.

[Voltaire]

Voting the person you yourself mentioned might be a possible town PR?  Awesome.

I honestly forgot you'd maybe-claimed.

[Teproc]

God I suck at posting. It would mean that NOT all of the people pushing for it are scum. I should go to bed now, these mistakes are embarassing.

[2.71828.....]

See, I just don't think these are the same things. Having this as a strategical possibility for scum is fine because town doesn't outright lose the game if scum convinces them to out their PRs. Having it as a strategical possibility for town is not fine because scum would just lose on the spot.

So, the way you see option 3 is that the info would still be very vague ? I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying, because what you're describing looks a lot like option 2 to me, functionnally.

And if it's option 2, who was for or against the claim is irrelevant. Wait, actually it wouldn't, scum would be in favor (slight chance of outing PRs) and town would be against (slight chance of outing PRs, no chance of outing scum).

So yeah, let's do it and lynch Voltaire, ashersky and 2.7. Game over.*

*This is not serious. I think there's some huge WIFOM which makes it pretty impossible to get anything out of people pro or anti-claiming position in option 2, because not all scum would be pushing for it, and some town would be pushing against it because people are wrong sometimes.

What I describe as option 3 does look similar to 2 because I do not believe that PRs will be outed. PRs can only be outed with a role claim. Which we are not doing.  We are claiming flavor names. Which helps with alignment. Not with PRs. And there is serious WIFOM with pretty much any info that goes out.  Flavor, role, anything. Not until we have heard data to analyze on that person (read: they are dead) can we truly learn anything about their early stances. So when I flip town (in the off chance that I die on D3 or N3 for example) there will be something for you to look at.Which helps town. And when you flip scum (say on D1 or N1) we will learn something from your refusal to claim.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: Ashersky

[mcmcsalot]

Clarification's

Everyone received a Character name and a role(A Power role or "No face officer" which simply means "Vanilla Townie")

Flavor indicates alignment.

Flavor follows logically the events and characteristics of the game series from my interpretations.

In Mafia XXXII Flavor Claiming was not allowed as it directly related to role. Wu were doctors. Shu were vigs. Wei were investigators. Yuan were IC. All power roles were characters who were playable in the game series. All Vanilla Townies were characters who were not playable in the game series.

In Mafia XXXVI Flavor Claiming is allowed.

The flavor is taken from my memory of the game series which includes up to Dynasty Warriors 7 http://koei.wikia.com/wiki/Dynasty_Warriors_7

Everyone received a different PM which contained different information.

[Teproc]

See, I just don't think these are the same things. Having this as a strategical possibility for scum is fine because town doesn't outright lose the game if scum convinces them to out their PRs. Having it as a strategical possibility for town is not fine because scum would just lose on the spot.

So, the way you see option 3 is that the info would still be very vague ? I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying, because what you're describing looks a lot like option 2 to me, functionnally.

And if it's option 2, who was for or against the claim is irrelevant. Wait, actually it wouldn't, scum would be in favor (slight chance of outing PRs) and town would be against (slight chance of outing PRs, no chance of outing scum).

So yeah, let's do it and lynch Voltaire, ashersky and 2.7. Game over.*

*This is not serious. I think there's some huge WIFOM which makes it pretty impossible to get anything out of people pro or anti-claiming position in option 2, because not all scum would be pushing for it, and some town would be pushing against it because people are wrong sometimes.

What I describe as option 3 does look similar to 2 because I do not believe that PRs will be outed. PRs can only be outed with a role claim. Which we are not doing.  We are claiming flavor names. Which helps with alignment. Not with PRs. And there is serious WIFOM with pretty much any info that goes out.  Flavor, role, anything. Not until we have heard data to analyze on that person (read: they are dead) can we truly learn anything about their early stances. So when I flip town (in the off chance that I die on D3 or N3 for example) there will be something for you to look at.Which helps town. And when you flip scum (say on D1 or N1) we will learn something from your refusal to claim.

So you don't think option 3 is possible basically. But you think option 1 is ? I don't see how you could truly believe that . I could see believeing neither is possible, or that both are, but 1 is so much less likely than 3 that I fail to see how this makes sense at all.

I don't think mcmc's clarification clarifies much of what I'm worried about. Unless the fact that flavor claiming being allowed this time means it's not related to role, but he is deliberately not saying that outright. I guess that makes option 3 less likely, but I still see it as more likely than 1, pretty easily.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 1.1:

2.71828 (1): chairs
chairs (1): 2.71828
Voltaire (1): mail-mi
ashersky (2): Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin
Ichimaru Gin (1): ashersky

Not Voting (7): Robz888, Yuma, Lekkit, Liopoil, Eevee, Faust, Teproc

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Deceber, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[mail-mi]

Totally siding with Teproc right now. He's the only one making sense!

[yuma]

I really doubt that flavor claiming could give us a positive benefit. I mean, the whole point of flavor is that it's unrelated to the real game, right? I'll gladly flavor claim if it does indeed give us a benefit, but if this is the case I think it pretty much goes against the idea of the game and isn't really what I signed up for.

I agree with this entire statement... except for the "gladly flavor claim part." I won't be claiming anything right now. I think mass claiming of any type is 1. generally bad for town (very few situations have/would have produced good results for town--Bankers for example--and we can't know right now given the info we have wether it will be good or bad, so let's just not go there) and 2. it is lame. If in fact flavor claiming would out scum I wouldn't find any satisfaction from that sort of a victory.

I am going to try really hard to not get sucked into any sort of petty, unproductive argument about this like in Harry Potter. You all know where I stand. Respect my stance and just because I don't post a million posts arguing it of it doesn't mean I have stopped believing in it.

[yuma]

vote: Ashersky

can you explain your vote and then tell us about yourself... (specifically previous mafia experience of any kind and your timezone would be most beneficial)

welcome to forum mafia!

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sure. I voted for Ash cause he voted for me.
I haven't had any previous experience with mafia, although I have read (all the way through) a couple of mafia games on here.
Time zone: Pacific.

I'm actually going to a Toastmasters meeting right now. But I'll be back in one hour.

[Eevee]

why does him voting for you make you want to vote for him?


town reads on Voltaire and chairs by extension. teproc is making sense, so he is slightly scummier than e I guess.

[mail-mi]

teproc is making sense, so he is slightly scummier than e I guess.

um.... he makes sense, so he's scummier? Please explain.

[yuma]

teproc is making sense, so he is slightly scummier than e I guess.

um.... he makes sense, so he's scummier? Please explain.

Eevee is totally making sense here

vote: eevee

[ashersky]

vote: yuma because yuma.

[Ichimaru Gin]

why does him voting for you make you want to vote for him?

Oh. Just RVS, and he didn't really provide any reason for voting for me so why not?

[yuma]

Who were the two people who subbed in? liopoil and someone else....

When did you two tell mcmc that you were going to play in the game?

[2.71828.....]

What liopoil subbed in? Vote: liopoil

But actually unvote

I needed to get off my rvs chairs vote.

[yuma]

I needed to get off my rvs chairs vote.

Why?

[2.71828.....]

I needed to get off my rvs chairs vote.

Why?

well, for one, if I decide to actually vote chairs then I would want to unvote then revote just to show I actually meant my vote. And I don't want to get anyone confused by vote counts that would have me voting chairs seeing as how I have had some civilized discussion with him.

[Robz888]

I'm still quite confused, and mcmc's clarification has not improved this.

Mcmc, are you saying that all no-face officers are VTs? Thus, face officers are VTs? Zhang Fei (ashersky) and Zhuge Liang (2.7) are both face officers. So they are both PRs? So confused.

[Robz888]

A face officer is someone with a unique avatar in the Dynasty Warriors series. A no-face officer is someone who does not have a unique avatar.

I think the best way for all of you to quickly know whether someone is a "face-officer" or not officially is to check the DW7 wiki page, which lists all unique avatar officers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty_Warriors_7

[Robz888]

Some general information about the Battle of the Red Cliffs, as promised...

In 200 AD, the warlord Cao Cao had united most of central and northern China under his rule. His lands were called the Kingdom of Wei. The Emperor was his puppet. The Emperor's uncle, Liu Bei, was still actively resisting Cao Cao, but had no lands and only a small force. Liu Bei's forces would eventually become the Kingdom of Shu, but at this time, they were no kingdom at all.

Liu Bei fled to the Kingdom of Wu, in the southeast. Wu was ruled by Sun Quan, a popular leader. They were naval experts, and prosperous. Sun Quan did not know whether to resist Cao Cao and join with Liu Bei, or surrender peacefully to Cao Cao in exchange for retention over his lands. SUn Quan asked his chief strategist, the handsome Zhou Yu, what to do. Zhou Yu was initially undecided, until he spoke with Liu Bei's strategist, the brilliant Zhuge Liang. Zhuge Liang convinced Zhou Yu that Cao Cao wanted to enslave Zho Yu's wife, thus persuading the man to persuade Sun Quan to go to war.

Zhou Yu was commander-in-chief for the Wu forces. Cao Cao led the Wei forces himself. He assembled a massive navy and sailed down the river to Wu. Wu was vastly outnumbered, but had the home field advantage, essentially. Zhou Yu with the help of Zhuge Liang, invented a brilliant strategy for success. Pang Tong, a friend of Zhuge Liang, pretended to defect to Wei. He then gave bad advice to Cao Cao: He told Cao Cao to chain his ships together to prevent seasickness. Once the ships were chained, Zhou Yu instructed one of his officers, Huang Gai, to feign defection to Wei.

Huang Gai sailed his ship toward the Wei fleet. At that moment, Zhuge Liang offered a prayer and changed the direction of the wind. Huang Gai lit his ship on fire and crashed it into Cao Cao's fleet. With the help of the wind, all of Cao Cao's ships were engulfed in flame.

Zhou Yu realized that with Zhuge Liang at his side, Liu Bei would one day become a threat to Wu. He sent an assassin to kill Zhuge Liang, but the sorcerer escaped.

Cao Cao fled the battle. Zhuge Liang arranged his men so that Cao Cao could slip by--for if Cao Cao had perished, Wu would have seized control of China completely. Cao Cao's defeat and subsequent escape created an equilibrium that allowed for the three roughly equal kingdoms to emerge.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm still quite confused, and mcmc's clarification has not improved this.

Mcmc, are you saying that all no-face officers are VTs? Thus, face officers are VTs? Zhang Fei (ashersky) and Zhuge Liang (2.7) are both face officers. So they are both PRs? So confused.

A face officer is someone with a unique avatar in the Dynasty Warriors series. A no-face officer is someone who does not have a unique avatar.

I think the best way for all of you to quickly know whether someone is a "face-officer" or not officially is to check the DW7 wiki page, which lists all unique avatar officers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty_Warriors_7

"No Face Officer" means "Vanilla Townie" as I have now said 3 times. "No face officer" does not mean "Not a Playable Character in the game series"

[Robz888]

I'm still quite confused, and mcmc's clarification has not improved this.

Mcmc, are you saying that all no-face officers are VTs? Thus, face officers are VTs? Zhang Fei (ashersky) and Zhuge Liang (2.7) are both face officers. So they are both PRs? So confused.

A face officer is someone with a unique avatar in the Dynasty Warriors series. A no-face officer is someone who does not have a unique avatar.

I think the best way for all of you to quickly know whether someone is a "face-officer" or not officially is to check the DW7 wiki page, which lists all unique avatar officers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty_Warriors_7

"No Face Officer" means "Vanilla Townie" as I have now said 3 times. "No face officer" does not mean "Not a Playable Character in the game series"

Okay, now I get it. Okay. So for the purposes of this game, it doesn't actually matter whether a character has a unique avatar in Dynasty Warriors. Zhang Fei could be a No-Face Officer (Vanilla Townie) even though he is very much a face officer in DW.

Okay, so that's actually good. This means that the people who flavor claimed didn't actually announce that they had PRs.

[Robz888]

Well in this case, I think I support flavor claiming. It doesn't really tell anyone anything for sure. Like, I couldn't say for certain what type of PR Zhuge Liang should have, if he has one. However, later, when people role claim, they will have to justify whether the PR they have makes sense given the character they have.

I think it puts up barriers for scum who have to lie. Yes?

[yuma]

I will not be claiming anything under any circumstance except to counterclaim or maybe at L-1.

[mail-mi]

I will not be claiming anything under any circumstance except to counterclaim or maybe at L-1.

[Robz888]

Well, okay, but can you point where my logic is wrong?

[mail-mi]

It creates a possibility of ousting PRs. More than the possibility of ousting scum, to me. Therefore, I will not support claiming.

[yuma]

Well, okay, but can you point where my logic is wrong?

I have not looked at your logic nor do I desire to look at your logic so I have no idea if it is wrong or not. But regardless I won't be claiming. I signed up to play a mafia game... not "guess what the flavor means" especially when that means absolutely nothing to me (sorry mcmc, it doesn't. I don't play this video game. I have never heard of it and certainly didn't signup because of the flavor)

for me flavor is a fun sidenote, but not all part of what I consider to be the true mafia game and I refuse to use it or participate in it.

[Robz888]

It creates a possibility of ousting PRs. More than the possibility of ousting scum, to me. Therefore, I will not support claiming.

Well, I think you're wrong. Like, we've had two people role claim, Zhang Fei and Zhuge Liang. Zhang Fei is a super awesome, fearsome warrior. Zhuge Liang is the most brilliant strategist in Chinese history, and also something of a magician. Tell me, which PRs are they, if any?

That's the thing: You can't. Now, you can say perhaps maybe some are more likely than others. So when it comes time for claiming, we can sanity check the claim against the name given right now. I think this is beneficial, and creates more hurdles for scum than it does out naybody right now.

The only downside I see I guess is that this primarily helps me, since I know the flavor much better. So maybe from your shoes it doesn't make as much sense.

[Robz888]

We're playing the game we're playing, yuma. This is very unlike you.

[yuma]

We're playing the game we're playing, yuma. This is very unlike you.

How so? Name one game where I have ever said claiming was something we should do day1.

[ashersky]

We're playing the game we're playing, yuma. This is very unlike you.

How so? Name one game where I have ever said claiming was something we should do day1.

Claiming Mafia XII: Claim to Win! is one off the top of my head.

[Robz888]

We're playing the game we're playing, yuma. This is very unlike you.

How so? Name one game where I have ever said claiming was something we should do day1.

No, I know you are generally against claiming, but I thought that was for strategic reasons--it's often bad--rather than moral reasons.

[ashersky]

We're playing the game we're playing, yuma. This is very unlike you.

How so? Name one game where I have ever said claiming was something we should do day1.

No, I know you are generally against claiming, but I thought that was for strategic reasons--it's often bad--rather than moral reasons.

I'm with Robz here.  Although, I'm all about claiming most of the time.

[yuma]

We're playing the game we're playing, yuma. This is very unlike you.

How so? Name one game where I have ever said claiming was something we should do day1.

Claiming Mafia XII: Claim to Win! is one off the top of my head.

I wasn't in that game.

We're playing the game we're playing, yuma. This is very unlike you.

How so? Name one game where I have ever said claiming was something we should do day1.

No, I know you are generally against claiming, but I thought that was for strategic reasons--it's often bad--rather than moral reasons.

Why can't it be both?

[mcmcsalot]

The flavor was left ambiguous to force mafia and town to make interesting decisions involving claiming and finding scum/pr's I am sick of explaining every little piece. I have given all information people need multiple times...

This is an invented game that acts almost entirely like a normal game, if you don't like it /out and I will find you a replacement

[ashersky]

The flavor was left ambiguous to force mafia and town to make interesting decisions involving claiming and finding scum/pr's I am sick of explaining every little piece. I have given all information people need multiple times...

This is an invented game that acts almost entirely like a normal game, if you don't like it /out and I will find you a replacement

+1

Also, I like it.

[Lekkit]

Skimmed through the thread on my way to work. I'll be back in an hour or so. Also e is the numbers?

[Lekkit]

Allright, so I'm back.

Here's what I think: We either drop this talk about flavor claiming or we claim. I knew nothing of DW flavor prior to this game, and I'm apparently not the only one. All this talk has made think that talking about flavor claiming is bad for town. I'm not sure we'd get much out of flavor claiming, though, and I would prefer if we didn't claim more than has allready been claimed. So here's what I think we should do. We all flavorclaimvote without discussing it much further. If a majority wants to claim, then we all do it. Otherwise we drop it for now.

Flavorclaimvote: Against for me.

And that's all I'll say regarding flavor claims for now, and I'll most likely not say anything more until this vote is over, and I don't think anyone else should either.

[Teproc]

I'm assuming Eevee made a mistake in his post, otherwise it would be pretty funny to see him argue that making sense is scummy. He probably meant I was NOT making sense ?

Ok, so it looks like flavour names can't really reveal PRs. Kinda. I guess it could be a good idea then ? I still don't like it (like yuma, I enjoy the game for the social deduction aspect, I really dislike claiming of any kind actually), but mostly I agree with Lekkit that we just need to move on.

I'll vote no on flavour claiming then, but I'll do it if a majority agrees we should.

[faust]

Aaaand I'm late to the party again.

Look! I subbed into this game so yuma can lynch me D1!

On another note: Is there maybe some value in claiming which army we belong to? Like, I would expect them to have roughly equal numbers, and we might be able to catch scum if one army turns out to be substantially larger.

[faust]

Also, vote: ashersky.

That guy is always scum. I mean, in the last game I played with him, he was scum twice!

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

[ashersky]

Also, vote: ashersky.

That guy is always scum. I mean, in the last game I played with him, he was scum twice!

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

vote: faust

I am absolutely certain he is scum.

Also, looking at #1 there, looking for an "okay" mislynch already?  No interest in scum hunting, I see.

[faust]

Also, vote: ashersky.

That guy is always scum. I mean, in the last game I played with him, he was scum twice!

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

vote: faust

I am absolutely certain he is scum.

Also, looking at #1 there, looking for an "okay" mislynch already?  No interest in scum hunting, I see.

OMGUS?

Stating that I have no interest in scumhunting is ridiculous. I put my vote on the person who right now I believe to be the best lynch, given the information I have. That's just the way this game works. If at some stage I'm convinced someone else is a better lynch, I will switch.

I mean, why DID you flavor-claim?

[Teproc]

faust, what do you think of e, since he prematurely flavour claimed as well ?

[faust]

faust, what do you think of e, since he prematurely flavour claimed as well ?

Well, e was only following ashersky. While I still find this suspicious, I can see it as a mistake because he didn't thoroughly think through the setup. ash is more experienced, and I don't think he makes such mistakes, so out of the two, I prefer voting ashersky.

[faust]

Onm another note, I think all this talk about mass flavor-claiming severely hurt us, up to the point where I would almost policy-vote Voltaire for starting it.

[Eevee]

teproc is making sense, so he is slightly scummier than e I guess.

um.... he makes sense, so he's scummier? Please explain.

The position e was arguing was so controversially nonsensical, I doubt scum would have wanted to go down that road. Teproc however had an opportunity to be right and increase his activity in an easy way.

The evidence is obviously very circumstantial, as teproc might have just seen something he deemed incorrect and wanted to tell his opinion,
but of the two I find teproc scummier, for making sense.


Yuma's position is consistent with his earlier opinions, and not an alignment tell, I don't think. Maybe the mods should stress that the game will partially be about flavor beforehand, as it seems some people don't want to play that game.

I would postpone claiming, what robz is saying makes sense, but I think can also be useful later - finding a plausible flavor for a role you are fakeclaiming just using wikipedia sounds hard as well.

[Teproc]

That's some interesting logic. I mean, what is town supposed to do in this situation, just say nothing ? I guess it would be more accurate to say that you find e townier than me in that argument, more than me being scummier ? Since what you're saying is that scum wouldn't hold a "nonsensical" position, not really that town wouldn't try to "make sense".

Basically I see what you're saying, but it seems to me that your logic should be giving you a town read on e rather than a scum read on me.

And I still disagree with it. People make mistakes/are wrong all the time, scum or town. And e was actually right about names not giving away PRs.

[Eevee]

You are right, "e came off townier" would have been more accurate, but especially in the beginning of the game, I like to make controversial statements to get the game running.

You continued with the extremely level-headed and rational responses. I don't know what you'd look like scum, my only previous game with you had me happy you were arguing your reads so convincingly because they happened to be wrong and I was scum.

fwiw, and this is more like a general
point:
regardless of your alignment, reacting like that instead of say getting upset at my (in your eyes almost baseless) accusations, makes you fun to play with.

[Teproc]

Hey, I was right about mail-mi ! And then I proceeded to be wrong about everything. So yeah. But let's not talk about that game, shall we ?

[mail-mi]

Hey, I was right about mail-mi ! And then I proceeded to be wrong about everything. So yeah. But let's not talk about that game, shall we ?

Hey I liked that game!

[mail-mi]

@Eevee: Good nuf explanation for me.

[Voltaire]

Sure. I voted for Ash cause he voted for me.
I haven't had any previous experience with mafia, although I have read (all the way through) a couple of mafia games on here.
Time zone: Pacific.

This is the kind of OMGUS newbie town does. Town read on Ichimaru.

[chairs]

1) Clarifications from mcmc have sufficed to make me worry less about outing PRs with simple flavor claims.  (Sorry for frustrating you, mcmc!)
2) Unlike CK9++, I am not seeing many good options for claiming in JK9++ - no "1-shot X means we have Y" type stuff.

[Voltaire]

I'm assuming Eevee made a mistake in his post, otherwise it would be pretty funny to see him argue that making sense is scummy. He probably meant I was NOT making sense ?

I stand with Eevee on this one. Null tell on you though (though I already find you vaguely scummy), small town read on Eevee though.

Also, vote: ashersky.

That guy is always scum. I mean, in the last game I played with him, he was scum twice!

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

vote: faust

I am absolutely certain he is scum.

Also, looking at #1 there, looking for an "okay" mislynch already?  No interest in scum hunting, I see.

Ash has claimed every vote against him is terrible. Also everything faust says is right. If ash turns out to be a PR then he knew he was maybe outing himself, so he'll be ok with it. vote: ashersky (I think my vote was already there but that's definitely where I want it).

Onm another note, I think all this talk about mass flavor-claiming severely hurt us, up to the point where I would almost policy-vote Voltaire for starting it.

 

[Voltaire]

In all seriousness, top scum read, along with Teproc.  Hesitance/fear of the claiming TALK, even before the claiming, is a scum tell.

Also, everyone should vote ash because chairs is one of his top scum reads.

[faust]

In all seriousness, top scum read, along with Teproc.  Hesitance/fear of the claiming TALK, even before the claiming, is a scum tell.

Also, everyone should vote ash because chairs is one of his top scum reads.

I agree that this makes ash look even scummier.

[faust]

Well, there's more to this setup than just flavor stuff. For example: We are likely to have a Hider. Is that going to help us? Should they claim? (It's a good claim I think, because unlike with other roles, there can't be more than one, so fakeclaiming is dangerous) I vaguely remember someone somewhere talking about some "Hider plan" that worked great in some game I didn't participate in. Are we able to pull off something like this here? Can someone who was in this game explain how that plan worked?

[faust]

By the way, I had too much spare time, so I did some math. Maybe this can be of use.

Probabilities for PRs:

P(there is a Tracker)=63,6%

P(there is a 1-shot Tracker)=22,2%

P(there is a Doctor)=P(there is a Jailkeeper)=31,5%

P(there is a Hider)=49,1%

P(there is a 1-shot Commuter)=13,9%

P(there is a Vengeful)=P(there is a Vigilante)=31,5%

P(there is a Role Cop)=24,6%

P(there is a Gunsmith)=4,1%

P(there is a Mafia Bus Driver)=40,9%

P(there is a Mafia JOAT)=73,0%

P(there is a SK)=50,0%

[Voltaire]

Well, there's more to this setup than just flavor stuff. For example: We are likely to have a Hider. Is that going to help us? Should they claim? (It's a good claim I think, because unlike with other roles, there can't be more than one, so fakeclaiming is dangerous) I vaguely remember someone somewhere talking about some "Hider plan" that worked great in some game I didn't participate in. Are we able to pull off something like this here? Can someone who was in this game explain how that plan worked?

It won't work here. It worked in Clue because of a list provided by the mod in the OP that accidentally created a flawless Hider plan. It was broken and will never happen again.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 1.2:

2.71828 (1): chairs
Voltaire (1): mail-mi
ashersky (3): Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin, Faust
Eevee (1): Yuma
Faust (1): ashersky

Not Voting (6): Robz888, Lekkit, Liopoil, Eevee, Teproc, 2.71828

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[chairs]

Well, there's more to this setup than just flavor stuff. For example: We are likely to have a Hider. Is that going to help us? Should they claim? (It's a good claim I think, because unlike with other roles, there can't be more than one, so fakeclaiming is dangerous) I vaguely remember someone somewhere talking about some "Hider plan" that worked great in some game I didn't participate in. Are we able to pull off something like this here? Can someone who was in this game explain how that plan worked?

It won't work here. It worked in Clue because of a list provided by the mod in the OP that accidentally created a flawless Hider plan. It was broken and will never happen again.

It was beautiful once, though.

[faust]

Well, there's more to this setup than just flavor stuff. For example: We are likely to have a Hider. Is that going to help us? Should they claim? (It's a good claim I think, because unlike with other roles, there can't be more than one, so fakeclaiming is dangerous) I vaguely remember someone somewhere talking about some "Hider plan" that worked great in some game I didn't participate in. Are we able to pull off something like this here? Can someone who was in this game explain how that plan worked?

It won't work here. It worked in Clue because of a list provided by the mod in the OP that accidentally created a flawless Hider plan. It was broken and will never happen again.

Alright. Would it still be a good idea to have them claim? I mean, suppose they hide behind scum N1 and die, then we'd get no information from that. And scum can't kill them anyway.

[Teproc]

They don't have to hide do they ? And I don't think we get more info if they died after having claimed anyway, unless you want them to announce who they'll be hiding behind, but that seems like an awful idea.

[Voltaire]

They don't have to hide do they ? And I don't think we get more info if they died after having claimed anyway, unless you want them to announce who they'll be hiding behind, but that seems like an awful idea.

It makes it super-easy for mafia to frame them, or someone else. Especially since we might have a busdriver! The trick to playing hider is to plant the seeds of who you'll hide behind, so it's obvious once you flip.

[faust]

Mod question:

If the Hider is targeted by a Strongman kill while hiding behind someone, do they die?

[Teproc]

Which only works if they don't claim. I think that was your point, correct ?

I agree in that case.

[Voltaire]

Which only works if they don't claim. I think that was your point, correct ?

I agree in that case.

Yes. Hiders shouldn't claim, usually.

[faust]

They don't have to hide do they ? And I don't think we get more info if they died after having claimed anyway, unless you want them to announce who they'll be hiding behind, but that seems like an awful idea.

It makes it super-easy for mafia to frame them, or someone else. Especially since we might have a busdriver! The trick to playing hider is to plant the seeds of who you'll hide behind, so it's obvious once you flip.

Okay, I get that we probably don't gain much from having the Hider claim today.

[Eevee]

I agree with Voltaire.

[Voltaire]

I agree with Voltaire.

about...?

[Eevee]

I agree with Voltaire.

about...?

How our hider, if we have one, should proceed.

[chairs]

So should we start on a PoE (for the day) list?

[ashersky]

So should we start on a PoE (for the day) list?

Nope.  Mislynch me instead.  Then lynch scum!faust tomorrow.  Then scum!chairs on D3.

[Voltaire]

So should we start on a PoE (for the day) list?

Sure!

Here's what I propose as of right now (modify for your own personal list as you see fit):

Voltaire
Robz888
mail-mi
Chairs
Ashersky
Yuma
Ichimaru Gin
Lekkit
Liopoil
Teproc
2.7
Eevee
Faust

I think that's it so far. It's very early.

[ashersky]

How chairs gets any town reads from people at all this game astounds me.  Was easily the scumminess player up until Faust posted.

[Voltaire]

How chairs gets any town reads from people at all this game astounds me.  Was easily the scumminess player up until Faust posted.

What's the scum case on chairs? Just the hedging on claiming?

[ashersky]

How chairs gets any town reads from people at all this game astounds me.  Was easily the scumminess player up until Faust posted.

What's the scum case on chairs? Just the hedging on claiming?

The way he hedged on claiming.  Best described as "oh shit they might claim" face.

[Voltaire]

How chairs gets any town reads from people at all this game astounds me.  Was easily the scumminess player up until Faust posted.

What's the scum case on chairs? Just the hedging on claiming?

The way he hedged on claiming.  Best described as "oh shit they might claim" face.

If you're town, pretty-please go back and re-read that section. I agree that he came across that way. But he also did another thing. So he's town.

[Teproc]

Oh exactly is "oh shit they might claim" a scumtell ? I'm town, and that's exactly what I thought... because I thought claiming was a bad idea. And look, you and e actually did claim ! I get no scumread on that from chairs.

[ashersky]

Oh exactly is "oh shit they might claim" a scumtell ? I'm town, and that's exactly what I thought... because I thought claiming was a bad idea.

I noted your reaction as well.  You gave reasoning and stuff, if I recall.  Less "oh shit" and more "hmmm...this is bad Scoobs!" style.

[chairs]

So should we start on a PoE (for the day) list?

Sure!

Here's what I propose as of right now (modify for your own personal list as you see fit):

Voltaire
Robz888
mail-mi
Chairs
Ashersky
Yuma
Ichimaru Gin
Lekkit
Liopoil
Teproc
2.7
Eevee
Faust

I think that's it so far. It's very early.

Giving Ichimaru a day 1 pass because he's new?

I think I'd add Teproc or Faust on the basis that both contribute heavily and should be easy to catch out in later Days.  Maybe also add Lekkit on a newbie D1 pass basis, because AFAIK he's new.

That would leave:
Eevee
Liopoil
Ashersky
mail-mi
Robz888

in my "would lynch" pool.

I'd personally put ashersky at the bottom of this list because he's contributing (even if he is kind of tunneling me, and I know I'm town).  We'll catch him out somehow.

Maybe Robz or mail-mi? Robz seems to be the more devious scum in the past, but I legitimately think I might get caught out more often by scum!mail-mi than scum!Robz because there are certain semi-tells to suggest when Robz is scum.

[chairs]

Oh exactly is "oh shit they might claim" a scumtell ? I'm town, and that's exactly what I thought... because I thought claiming was a bad idea.

I noted your reaction as well.  You gave reasoning and stuff, if I recall.  Less "oh shit" and more "hmmm...this is bad Scoobs!" style.

My apologies if my shorter posts (usually while I should be working) lead to simple "oh shit" without the additional reasoning, though I hope I've since clarified my reasoning (albeit mcmc has since cleared up that my major concern was unfounded).

[Voltaire]

Giving Ichimaru a day 1 pass because he's new?

Yup. I haven't taken anyone out based on post count yet, though. Way too early to do that. Also pretty sure Lekkit isn't new.

Oh wait mail-mi is in this game? Robz why aren't you voting mail-mi already?

[Teproc]

Lekkit is not new, he has played a few old games and ash referred to a more recent game where they were both werewolves I think.

Oh, and day 1 passes are stupid. PoE this early is also stupid. I just had that conversation in another game so I don't really want to get into it again, but I just thought I'd say it and move on. PoE comes after scumhunting, not before.

Maaaaybe day 1 pass for a newbie is ok from a "welcome to the community, let's not kill you immediately" perspective, but not from a in-game perspective.

The problem is, I don't really know how to move to scumhunting myself, I just don't have the material yet. I guess my only scum reads right now are very light and due to theory talk, so that's not great.

[2.71828.....]

I don't really want to lynch Robz right now because 1) He knows the flavor well, and 2) he is v/la (or semi-v/la) and has not been able to contribute too much.  Ichimaru gets a newbie D1 pass from me.  I need to go back and do a reread to better narrow down my list.  Especially for people I have not played with before (chairs and Lekkit). 

I mean, we still have until December 19 to get a lynch.  No need to rush into anything. 

[Lekkit]

Just wanted to pop in and say that I am here. I've been busy today, but I'm free tomorrow. Will try to read through the thread once more tomorrow as I'm almost ready for bed now. I have played a couple of games before, but I've been away from the forums for a while and from the forum games for a while before that, though.

I thought I found something odd with Voltaire earlier today when skimming through, but I can't find it anymore. It might've been me seeing something, getting stuck on it being important and then finding other stuff that supported my theories.

Also, did PoE change meaning while I was gone?

[liopoil]

Oh, and day 1 passes are stupid. PoE this early is also stupid. I just had that conversation in another game so I don't really want to get into it again, but I just thought I'd say it and move on. PoE comes after scumhunting, not before.

Maaaaybe day 1 pass for a newbie is ok from a "welcome to the community, let's not kill you immediately" perspective, but not from a in-game perspective.

agree totally. D1, we ask "Who's the scummiest?" and lynch them. Later days, we can start eliminating people for being townie, and thus making it easier to look at the few people who remain. Right now this isn't feasible because a) we have pretty much no info, and b) there's 13 suspects, no way can we get that down to a low enough number.

[Voltaire]

Also, did PoE change meaning while I was gone?

It's always been Probability of Evisceration as far as I know.

[liopoil]

Who were the two people who subbed in? liopoil and someone else....

When did you two tell mcmc that you were going to play in the game?

I sent mcmc a PM saying that I could play if I died in toy story before D1 started very shortly after he posted that he was looking for a replacement for xerses. then when I died in toy story I sent him another PM saying I could play and he sent me my role PM right away

[chairs]

Lekkit is not new, he has played a few old games and ash referred to a more recent game where they were both werewolves I think.

Oh, and day 1 passes are stupid. PoE this early is also stupid. I just had that conversation in another game so I don't really want to get into it again, but I just thought I'd say it and move on. PoE comes after scumhunting, not before.

Maaaaybe day 1 pass for a newbie is ok from a "welcome to the community, let's not kill you immediately" perspective, but not from a in-game perspective.

The problem is, I don't really know how to move to scumhunting myself, I just don't have the material yet. I guess my only scum reads right now are very light and due to theory talk, so that's not great.

I didn't realize Lekkit wasn't new, that would be enough to put him back on my table.

Also PoE is, in my opinion, a useful tool for scumhunting in that seeing who each person would take off the table is beneficial in the long run as a form of interaction.

[Voltaire]

agree totally. D1, we ask "Who's the scummiest?" and lynch them.

But see I think that is a terrible way to play D1, and it's why in the past f.ds usually lynches town D1 (we've gotten much better at this lately).

This his how I think you play D1: *I wanted to quote Galzria's explanation from that speccy thread, but I can't find it. Any help? You know the one I mean.*

[Lekkit]

Also, did PoE change meaning while I was gone?

It's always been Probability of Evisceration as far as I know.

Can't tell if you're being serious or not. I've always read it as process of elimination. Something that's not really happening now.

[Voltaire]

Also, did PoE change meaning while I was gone?

It's always been Probability of Evisceration as far as I know.

Can't tell if you're being serious or not. I've always read it as process of elimination. Something that's not really happening now.

I was joking. I think it is and should be (slowly) happening now (in the background of each player's head). I'll put forward a more serious explanation later.

Everyone should join me in lynching ash.

[Lekkit]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

[Voltaire]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

[mcmcsalot]

Mod question:

If the Hider is targeted by a Strongman kill while hiding behind someone, do they die?

strongman bypasses doctor and jailkeeper, he would still miss the hider.

[Lekkit]

Yes, I think that's possible. Don't get me wrong. I still think it's more likely that chairs is town, but I wouldn't be that surprised to see him flip scum. However more likely SK than mafia.

[mail-mi]

agree totally. D1, we ask "Who's the scummiest?" and lynch them.

But see I think that is a terrible way to play D1, and it's why in the past f.ds usually lynches town D1 (we've gotten much better at this lately).

This his how I think you play D1: *I wanted to quote Galzria's explanation from that speccy thread, but I can't find it. Any help? You know the one I mean.*

Voltaire is totes right here. unvote, but you're not on my don't wanna lynch list yet. Also, agree with newbie D1 pass.

[ashersky]

agree totally. D1, we ask "Who's the scummiest?" and lynch them.

But see I think that is a terrible way to play D1, and it's why in the past f.ds usually lynches town D1 (we've gotten much better at this lately).

This his how I think you play D1: *I wanted to quote Galzria's explanation from that speccy thread, but I can't find it. Any help? You know the one I mean.*

Also agree.  Lynching the "scummiest" on D1 fails every single time.  Lynching by POE (or random luckiness) has worked better.  That's historically proven. 

In fact, you can ask Lekkit.  He played M17 (Buffyverse) and got POE D1 lynched as scum.

f.ds continues to do Day 1 wrong.  Just ask Galz.

[ashersky]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

I'm sure scum can't figure out what you guys are talking about.  At all.

[Voltaire]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

I'm sure scum can't figure out what you guys are talking about.  At all.

Of course not. They're silly scum.

[chairs]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

I'm sure scum can't figure out what you guys are talking about.  At all.

...would you believe that I'm not sure what they're talking about? 

[Teproc]

Well, I can't. But I haven't really tried to. That's what I like to tell myself to keep the illusion that I'm smart.

[ashersky]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

I'm sure scum can't figure out what you guys are talking about.  At all.

...would you believe that I'm not sure what they're talking about? 

You townslipped somewhere, according to them.

[Lekkit]

chairs, how many games have you played prior to this one?

[Lekkit]

Well, I can't. But I haven't really tried to. That's what I like to tell myself to keep the illusion that I'm smart.

Do you mean to say that you haven't looked hard at the game, or that you have but not found anything?

[ashersky]

chairs, how many games have you played prior to this one?

He's played "lots."  More than you, I believe, if that helps.

[chairs]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

I'm sure scum can't figure out what you guys are talking about.  At all.

...would you believe that I'm not sure what they're talking about? 

You townslipped somewhere, according to them.

That much I gathered.

chairs, how many games have you played prior to this one?

I'm honestly not sure. Somewhere in the 10-15 range at least?

[Teproc]

Well, I can't. But I haven't really tried to. That's what I like to tell myself to keep the illusion that I'm smart.

Do you mean to say that you haven't looked hard at the game, or that you have but not found anything?

I mean that I haven't reread yet.

[mail-mi]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

I'm sure scum can't figure out what you guys are talking about.  At all.

...would you believe that I'm not sure what they're talking about? 

vote: Voltaire rage vote. I hate hate hate "secret cases" even if they're "secret town slips." Remember the last time someone did this ? Yeah, they were scum.

[ashersky]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

I'm sure scum can't figure out what you guys are talking about.  At all.

...would you believe that I'm not sure what they're talking about? 

vote: Voltaire rage vote. I hate hate hate "secret cases" even if they're "secret town slips." Remember the last time someone did this ? Yeah, they were scum.

That's M31 with Robz playing the IC's fiddle, btw.

And mail-mi is channeling Twistedarcher.  He can thank you later.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. I don't really understand about the whole last page. But I do agree that PoE seems much better than just lynching some random person who seems the scummiest.

I appreciate that some are giving me a D1 pass. I can see the practicality of treating newbies the same as everyone else. But It' suck for me to die D1, game 1 and miss out on the rest of the game. So thanks. I understand that this is only temporary, so won't be expecting special treatment later on.

Also. Next week is Finals for me. I'll have a fair amount of free time to post this weekend, but not nearly as much next week.
So just wanted to give you all a heads up.

[liopoil]

Because he has a scumread on chairs? I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing as me, but that doesn't make chairs definately town.

Let's pretend we're seeing the same thing (don't say it out loud). Do you think chairs, as scum, would post what he did?

oh not again. I wasn't still in the game while that happened in M31, but it was still terrible as a spectator.

[liopoil]

also, in light of M31, it makes sense for mail-mi to be against secret cases, as he was the one who the case was wrongly against.

[liopoil]

While, the idea is that if we lynch the scummiest player, we aren't lynching anyone who would have been eliminated via POE... comes to the same result I guess.

[2.71828.....]

also, in light of M31, it makes sense for mail-mi to be against secret cases, as he was the one who the case was wrongly against.

I was not around for M31, but if I am thinking the same as Voltaire is, then this is not necessarily a D1 lynch "secret case" but more of a "we need to remember this for after a couple flips case" that might pop up later. I do think I get what Voltaire is referring to, but I also agree with the rest of you that pursuing a"secret case" is bad for town.

[chairs]

While, the idea is that if we lynch the scummiest player, we aren't lynching anyone who would have been eliminated via POE... comes to the same result I guess.

My argument in favor of D1 POE-style statements is that it's giving us TONS of interaction data - scum have to decide whether their POE list should include their fellow scum or not, etc, etc.  Particularly in D1, where the arguments are weakest, I think POE can give us more data than our typical "RVS into light scumhunting into probably-a-mislynch" pattern.

[chairs]

Clarification: I'm not arguing that D1 POE is more likely to catch scum, merely that seeing each person's POE list and their reasoning behind it is effectively a vote conglomerate when it comes to interactions for town-review.

[ashersky]

While, the idea is that if we lynch the scummiest player, we aren't lynching anyone who would have been eliminated via POE... comes to the same result I guess.

My argument in favor of D1 POE-style statements is that it's giving us TONS of interaction data - scum have to decide whether their POE list should include their fellow scum or not, etc, etc.  Particularly in D1, where the arguments are weakest, I think POE can give us more data than our typical "RVS into light scumhunting into probably-a-mislynch" pattern.

I agree completely.  That's why we do popsquizzes.

[faust]

Who were the two people who subbed in? liopoil and someone else....

When did you two tell mcmc that you were going to play in the game?

I sent mcmc a PM saying that I could play if I died in toy story before D1 started very shortly after he posted that he was looking for a replacement for xerses. then when I died in toy story I sent him another PM saying I could play and he sent me my role PM right away

I received my PM at December 8 around 12 pm FT. mcmc said that at this point, the other replacement was still missing.

[faust]

Here how my lynch pool looks like:

Voltaire
Robz888
mail-mi
Chairs
Ashersky
Yuma
Ichimaru Gin
Lekkit
Liopoil
Teproc
2.7
Eevee
Faust

Voltaire is heavily contributing and even though I'm not convinced that he is town, I would like to keep him alive.

Chairs, well, there's a good enough reason not to lynch him, as Voltaire mentioned. Nothing that makes chairs "99% certain town" IMO, but enough to let him live through D1.

Ichimaru - newbie pass. And to people complaining about newbie passes, there's a good in-game reason for them: newbie scum is much easier to catch later on.

Teproc - active, and took a reasonably cautious stance towards claiming. Enough to let him live today.

faust - just a gut feeling.

[faust]

I don't really want to lynch Robz right now because 1) He knows the flavor well, and 2) he is v/la (or semi-v/la) and has not been able to contribute too much.  Ichimaru gets a newbie D1 pass from me.  I need to go back and do a reread to better narrow down my list.  Especially for people I have not played with before (chairs and Lekkit). 

I mean, we still have until December 19 to get a lynch.  No need to rush into anything.

How is any of your points a reason to lynch Robz?

[2.71828.....]

I don't really want to lynch Robz right now because 1) He knows the flavor well, and 2) he is v/la (or semi-v/la) and has not been able to contribute too much.  Ichimaru gets a newbie D1 pass from me.  I need to go back and do a reread to better narrow down my list.  Especially for people I have not played with before (chairs and Lekkit). 

I mean, we still have until December 19 to get a lynch.  No need to rush into anything.

How is any of your points a reason to lynch Robz?

I didn't reiterate it at the end, but I am saying I do not want to lynch Robz right now.  Maybe I will after another week of content before the day is up. 

[faust]

I don't really want to lynch Robz right now because 1) He knows the flavor well, and 2) he is v/la (or semi-v/la) and has not been able to contribute too much.  Ichimaru gets a newbie D1 pass from me.  I need to go back and do a reread to better narrow down my list.  Especially for people I have not played with before (chairs and Lekkit). 

I mean, we still have until December 19 to get a lynch.  No need to rush into anything.

How is any of your points a reason to lynch Robz?

I didn't reiterate it at the end, but I am saying I do not want to lynch Robz right now.  Maybe I will after another week of content before the day is up.

Oh, sorry, I guess I missed a "don't"...

[Voltaire]

vote: mail-mi. Feel pretty good about this. Robz will back me up I think. mail-mi is voting me for playing the game, and not acting like himself at all.

Level-headed explanations to follow.

[Voltaire]

Level-headed explanations to follow.

Actually no, that's pretty much it above.

[Eevee]

Level-headed explanations to follow.

Actually no, that's pretty much it above.

So, the case on mail-mi is, being upset at your secret case, even though the secret case (on chairs's towniness) is pro-town and he should like it?

[Teproc]

Ok, this is starting to be a major part of this game, so let's reread chairs, trying to figure out what the hell everyone is talking about.

[Voltaire]

Ok, this is starting to be a major part of this game, so let's reread chairs, trying to figure out what the hell everyone is talking about.

Fine, I'll just tell you.

I think chairs is either a PR or scum.

He clearly has a name to claim, and he thinks only PRs have names to claim.

I thought it through, and I don't see why scum would be the first to express confusion on this point. It's similar to the nkirbit "oh huh is that what town is called" in M31 for those of you who were in that game.

So, I think chairs outed himself as a PR.

[Voltaire]

Level-headed explanations to follow.

Actually no, that's pretty much it above.

So, the case on mail-mi is, being upset at your secret case, even though the secret case (on chairs's towniness) is pro-town and he should like it?

No, I think he's play-acting at being upset by my case. He's never rage-voted before. He's voting me for playing the game, even if he disagrees. He's also not posting "I sheep X, vote Y" which is how town mail-mi usually plays D1.

[Voltaire]

And I feel better about a mail-mi vote than an ash vote.

[Teproc]

That's the conclusion I was coming to as well... I just don't agree with the idea that scum wouldn't do that. To me, all it means is that chairs is not VT. And I'm not even sure of that, he could have been misleading (as a VT, your goals are 1) lynching scum 2) getting NKed).

[Voltaire]

That's the conclusion I was coming to as well... I just don't agree with the idea that scum wouldn't do that. To me, all it means is that chairs is not VT. And I'm not even sure of that, he could have been misleading (as a VT, your goals are 1) lynching scum 2) getting NKed).

Why do you think scum wouldn't do that?

[Voltaire]

That's the conclusion I was coming to as well... I just don't agree with the idea that scum wouldn't do that. To me, all it means is that chairs is not VT. And I'm not even sure of that, he could have been misleading (as a VT, your goals are 1) lynching scum 2) getting NKed).

Why do you think scum wouldn't do that?

God, that was worded terribly. Why do you think that chairs could still be scum?

[mail-mi]

No, I think he's play-acting at being upset by my case. He's never rage-voted before. He's voting me for playing the game, even if he disagrees. He's also not posting "I sheep X, vote Y" which is how town mail-mi usually plays D1.

1. No I am upset cuz I hate hate hate these secret things. 2. So what? 3. Im voting you for secret stuff and now you've said it so unvote. 4. This is regular ash. Not gonna sheep that case.

[Eevee]

chairs, if you are in fact a VT (I don't necessarily agree with Voltaire's certainty now that he has laid it all out), you should absolutely play this as a pr and try to draw a night kill.

[Teproc]

Oh! But they don't know who to say they are instead . Yes, mass claim immediately

Are we already so sold this is a good idea?  Based on my read of the setup, anybody who actually has a name to claim is a PR.

All the warriors gathered should be receiving battle instructions soon. These instruction's will inform you of your Kingdom(Alignment), Name(Flavor), and Role. The game developers have been quite busy working on Dynasty Warriors UltimaXtremeEsNumeroUnolegends 5... so some characters will be using a generic stock model. These are known as No Face Officers(Vanilla Townie)

JK9++ is a setup with a variable amount of town PRs.  Just because someone has a name that may be "powerful" in the story does not mean it will be a PR.  I think what I bolded here seems to imply that "face" and "no-face" officers will not be able to be distinguished due to flavor name.

When I read what you bolded, I get the exact opposite impression as you do.  I specifically read that as "Vanilla Townies will be "No Face Officers" in their PM, rather than a named officer".

These are the relevant posts, correct ?

I think all this means is that chairs is not a VT, or is a VT deliberately trying to pass for a PR (which I do think is possible, although unlikely). I don't know what makes you so sure that scum "wouldn't be the first to express confusion". Scum presumably discussed the setup on night 0, and they could very well have had the ame confusion as we did, and asked mcmc for clarification. It's very possible that scum!chairs then intentionally reproduced that confusion as a breadcrumb for a future fakeclaim.

Basically I agree that PR is the most likely option, but scum is still a strong enough possibility to give me pause.

[Voltaire]

I think all this means is that chairs is not a VT, or is a VT deliberately trying to pass for a PR (which I do think is possible, although unlikely). I don't know what makes you so sure that scum "wouldn't be the first to express confusion". Scum presumably discussed the setup on night 0, and they could very well have had the ame confusion as we did, and asked mcmc for clarification. It's very possible that scum!chairs then intentionally reproduced that confusion as a breadcrumb for a future fakeclaim.

Basically I agree that PR is the most likely option, but scum is still a strong enough possibility to give me pause.

I see what you're saying. Hmm.

ash, is this why you think chairs is scum? Or just his hesitation?

[ashersky]

I think all this means is that chairs is not a VT, or is a VT deliberately trying to pass for a PR (which I do think is possible, although unlikely). I don't know what makes you so sure that scum "wouldn't be the first to express confusion". Scum presumably discussed the setup on night 0, and they could very well have had the ame confusion as we did, and asked mcmc for clarification. It's very possible that scum!chairs then intentionally reproduced that confusion as a breadcrumb for a future fakeclaim.

Basically I agree that PR is the most likely option, but scum is still a strong enough possibility to give me pause.

I see what you're saying. Hmm.

ash, is this why you think chairs is scum? Or just his hesitation?

I think scum is MORE likely to make the assumption chairs made than not, and that occurred to me at the time of posting.  No one on the scum team would have a frame of reference for what town PMs say.  This is akin to a situation where town has a different name that isn't announced in thread and the scum players not knowing and getting caught out.

[faust]

I think all this means is that chairs is not a VT, or is a VT deliberately trying to pass for a PR (which I do think is possible, although unlikely). I don't know what makes you so sure that scum "wouldn't be the first to express confusion". Scum presumably discussed the setup on night 0, and they could very well have had the ame confusion as we did, and asked mcmc for clarification. It's very possible that scum!chairs then intentionally reproduced that confusion as a breadcrumb for a future fakeclaim.

Basically I agree that PR is the most likely option, but scum is still a strong enough possibility to give me pause.

I see what you're saying. Hmm.

ash, is this why you think chairs is scum? Or just his hesitation?

I think scum is MORE likely to make the assumption chairs made than not, and that occurred to me at the time of posting.  No one on the scum team would have a frame of reference for what town PMs say.  This is akin to a situation where town has a different name that isn't announced in thread and the scum players not knowing and getting caught out.

But if chairs is town, he's a PR, so this is a dangerous lynch. Plus, there is a 50% chance that we have two opposing scum (mafia/SK). In this case, someone who is supposed to be a town PR or scum is not going to last long. I say just keep chairs alive today and see if scum solves the problem for us.

[chairs]

Well, I'm glad that this is generating so much buzz, we'll have plenty to work with post-flips!

[Voltaire]

I think scum is MORE likely to make the assumption chairs made than not, and that occurred to me at the time of posting.  No one on the scum team would have a frame of reference for what town PMs say.  This is akin to a situation where town has a different name that isn't announced in thread and the scum players not knowing and getting caught out.

But we had that, in your game, in M31. It was town (who hadn't read their PM closely) who said something in-thread.

[Voltaire]

But if chairs is town, he's a PR, so this is a dangerous lynch. Plus, there is a 50% chance that we have two opposing scum (mafia/SK). In this case, someone who is supposed to be a town PR or scum is not going to last long. I say just keep chairs alive today and see if scum solves the problem for us.

Mmmm, that's true. If there's a SK, chairs is pretty much the perfect kill. Whether scum or a town PR, SK wins.

[ashersky]

I think scum is MORE likely to make the assumption chairs made than not, and that occurred to me at the time of posting.  No one on the scum team would have a frame of reference for what town PMs say.  This is akin to a situation where town has a different name that isn't announced in thread and the scum players not knowing and getting caught out.

But we had that, in your game, in M31. It was town (who hadn't read their PM closely) who said something in-thread.

Scum was caught out with a similar VT problem in MAII.  There are examples for both.

I'm not voting chairs now anyway.  Is anyone?  Why are we discussing him so much?

[Voltaire]

I think scum is MORE likely to make the assumption chairs made than not, and that occurred to me at the time of posting.  No one on the scum team would have a frame of reference for what town PMs say.  This is akin to a situation where town has a different name that isn't announced in thread and the scum players not knowing and getting caught out.

But we had that, in your game, in M31. It was town (who hadn't read their PM closely) who said something in-thread.

Scum was caught out with a similar VT problem in MAII.  There are examples for both.

I'm not voting chairs now anyway.  Is anyone?  Why are we discussing him so much?

Because you said he was tied for your top scum read, and I found that extremely scummy.

[ashersky]

I think scum is MORE likely to make the assumption chairs made than not, and that occurred to me at the time of posting.  No one on the scum team would have a frame of reference for what town PMs say.  This is akin to a situation where town has a different name that isn't announced in thread and the scum players not knowing and getting caught out.

But we had that, in your game, in M31. It was town (who hadn't read their PM closely) who said something in-thread.

Scum was caught out with a similar VT problem in MAII.  There are examples for both.

I'm not voting chairs now anyway.  Is anyone?  Why are we discussing him so much?

Because you said he was tied for your top scum read, and I found that extremely scummy.

And others find you scummy for finding people to be so strongly town this early.  Different styles, man.

Faust is still the scummiest.

[Voltaire]

Faust is still the scummiest.

Disagree that faust is scummy, but I see how town could disagree about him.

[Lekkit]

Disagree that faust is scummy, but I see how town could disagree about him.

Wait, what?

[Voltaire]

Disagree that faust is scummy, but I see how town could disagree about him.

Wait, what?

I am town. I think faust is not scummy. If ashersky is town, I can see how he could find faust scummy. We have the same alignment (maybe), but we disagree.

[Lekkit]

So basically instead of saying "we disagree" you say "town disagree"? Just putting it out there that you are in fact town. Just one more time. When nobody has said anything else.

[Voltaire]

So basically instead of saying "we disagree" you say "town disagree"? Just putting it out there that you are in fact town. Just one more time. When nobody has said anything else.

No, pointing out that my disagreement with ash may or may not be town v town. Since I don't know ash's alignment.

[Teproc]

He's saying that, while ash disagrees with him, he doesn't find him scummy for it. I don't see what the problm is here.

[Lekkit]

Allright, I just found it odd for the reasons I stated above.

[Eevee]

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

Now that we know the case, I'm finding Voltaire slightly scummy for this. I know 99% of the time someone says they are 99% sure, they are exaggerating.. but this seems very excessive, and Voltaire is usually a reasonable person.

[Voltaire]

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

Now that we know the case, I'm finding Voltaire slightly scummy for this. I know 99% of the time someone says they are 99% sure, they are exaggerating.. but this seems very excessive, and Voltaire is usually a reasonable person.

I simply do not think scum posts what chairs posts. Teproc however has pointed out that there is a reason he might post it as scum, which I did not think of at the time. It would require a very clever plan, though. One that I still don't think scum tries.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Unvote.
It may just be me, but it seems like there hasn't been a lot of development so far.
I'm having a hard time getting reads on anyone. I'd appreciate any scumhunting tips you guys have for me, cause at this point, I feel a little lost.

[mail-mi]

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

Now that we know the case, I'm finding Voltaire slightly scummy for this. I know 99% of the time someone says they are 99% sure, they are exaggerating.. but this seems very excessive, and Voltaire is usually a reasonable person.

I simply do not think scum posts what chairs posts. Teproc however has pointed out that there is a reason he might post it as scum, which I did not think of at the time. It would require a very clever plan, though. One that I still don't think scum tries.

Oh scum totally tries gutsy plans. All the time.

[Voltaire]

Oh scum totally tries gutsy plans. All the time.

*squints* Really? D1? Really? Cite examples.

[mail-mi]

Oh scum totally tries gutsy plans. All the time.

*squints* Really? D1? Really? Cite examples.

The one that you brought up: Ash&co. in RMM9 (Jimmmm's game) being all on or all off.

[Voltaire]

Oh scum totally tries gutsy plans. All the time.

*squints* Really? D1? Really? Cite examples.

The one that you brought up: Ash&co. in RMM9 (Jimmmm's game) being all on or all off.

That's completely different from a plan to misunderstand the setup D1. That's what we're talking about. Early D1 individual plans.

[Eevee]

Being all on or all off is a far cry from a gutsy plan.

[mail-mi]

Oh scum totally tries gutsy plans. All the time.

*squints* Really? D1? Really? Cite examples.

The one that you brought up: Ash&co. in RMM9 (Jimmmm's game) being all on or all off.

That's completely different from a plan to misunderstand the setup D1. That's what we're talking about. Early D1 individual plans.

Okay, I can't think of any specific examples. But i am not going to discredit scum being gutsy on D1. It is very possible.

[Voltaire]

Okay, I can't think of any specific examples. But i am not going to discredit scum being gutsy on D1. It is very possible.

And there you have it. Possible yes, likely no. That's what I have the read I do.

[Teproc]

It's not a very complicated plan actually. In fact, I don't think I'd call it a plan. It's just a clever way to get town points in a very believable way (assuming that was chairs reaction in the scum QT initially).

Again, I don't think it's the most likely option, and I probably don't want to lynch chairs today because he has a higer chance than most people to be a PR, but it's there.

[mail-mi]

Again, I don't think it's the most likely option, and I probably don't want to lynch chairs today because he has a higer chance than most people to be a PR, but it's there.

this exactly

[liopoil]

weird, the thing is, I don't see chairs saying that as PR either... nevertheless, that's enough to leave him alone today I think.

[Robz888]

Okay I finally had time to catch up. That was actually easy, very little in the way of real developments.

I agree that chairs said something that a VT is unlikely to say, to the point where he has almost no chance of being a VT. I CAN see it as a very easily hatched scum plot. I actually tried a version of this with Galz in M31. I started talking to him in our neighbor QT as if I was confirmed town to him, and when he got confused, I tried to pretend like I thought that my role made me conf. town to him, even though it did not. The ploy didn't work...

But, am I super confident that that's what it is? No, not really. So I definitely definitely definitely agree about leaving that alone.

I don't think we can hope for an SK to solve our problems there, though. There may not be an SK.... and actually, chairs could be the SK. The mistake he made is one the SK could make.

Other stuff, Voltaire says he expects me to support his mail-mi case. I don't, sorry. My "always lynch mail-mi" stance is totally without principle so I can really defend it in this context, but anyway his oppposite to secret cases is well noted, and even makes sense given how he was mistreated by a secret case. Don't find him scummy for that and what else was it?

[Robz888]

Also I am surprised to hear so little for yuma who said like nothing since we had that exchange about why I think flavor name claim would be--and is still--favorable in the long term.

[ashersky]

Also I am surprised to hear so little for yuma who said like nothing since we had that exchange about why I think flavor name claim would be--and is still--favorable in the long term.

Lurker Yuma is town Yuma, right?

[Robz888]

Also I am surprised to hear so little for yuma who said like nothing since we had that exchange about why I think flavor name claim would be--and is still--favorable in the long term.

Lurker Yuma is town Yuma, right?

Is that true? I actually would not have said that.

[ashersky]

Also I am surprised to hear so little for yuma who said like nothing since we had that exchange about why I think flavor name claim would be--and is still--favorable in the long term.

Lurker Yuma is town Yuma, right?

Is that true? I actually would not have said that.

Maybe?

He didn't lurk in mean girls.

When was he last scum?  WWDDTWDWW?

[faust]

Well, seeing that everybody likes to talk about chairs' reaction to the claiming plan, what do you make of ashersky's reaction to it?

[liopoil]

Lurker-yuma isn't scum yuma, lurker-yuma doesn't exist.

[Voltaire]

Well, seeing that everybody likes to talk about chairs' reaction to the claiming plan, what do you make of ashersky's reaction to it?

Scummy.

And yes, I think WWTWDP was yuma's last scum game but he was SK and on his own there.

[Lekkit]

Well, seeing that everybody likes to talk about chairs' reaction to the claiming plan, what do you make of ashersky's reaction to it?

Are we sure we want to do this?

[chairs]

Well, seeing that everybody likes to talk about chairs' reaction to the claiming plan, what do you make of ashersky's reaction to it?

Are we sure we want to do this?

Why not?

[Lekkit]

As I said earlier, I think all this talk might help scum more than us.

[faust]

As I said earlier, I think all this talk might help scum more than us.

On what basis do you want us to scumhunt instead? Or don't you want us to scumhunt at all?

[Lekkit]

The hard part is that I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure I don't want to do it by helping scum figure out who the PRs are. Which I think is exactly what will happen if we continue down this road.

[chairs]

Okay, so then let's go back to "everybody post a list with any preliminary POE you'd like to do.  Points for explaining your decisions on who's "in" and who's "out" of your 'could lynch today' list".  Note that I'm not saying you wouldn't be willing to lynch them ever, just "I'd rather not lynch X Y and Z today".

[mail-mi]

don't lynch: chairs (cuz of PR claim maybe possibly) mail-mi (also duh), ichamaru
don't care: everyone else
prefer to: voltaire, and i cant remember much else.

[mail-mi]

don't lynch: chairs (cuz of PR claim maybe possibly) mail-mi (also duh), ichamaru
don't care: everyone else
prefer to: voltaire, and i cant remember much else.

and by that i mean I need to reread.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Would lynch: Voltaire, Liopoil, Yuma
Won't lynch: mail-mi, Teproc, and probably Ashersky--they all read pretty town to me
Everyone else, I'm more unsure about.
I'm still learning a lot about how to read what people do as town or scum --so just going off of general impressions here.

[Eevee]

Why do you have a towny feel on mail-mi?

[Eevee]

(And no worries, no one ever has strong reads day 1. It'll become easier as the game progresses.)

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why do you have a towny feel on mail-mi?

Well like I said, part of its just a general feeling. But mostly mail-mi seems kinda townie partially cause he didn't participate in (what I thought) were some somewhat pointless discussions. And I feel like his posts are kinda casual--like he's saying things off the cuff--which reads more town to me.

Note: Again, I haven't had much experience reading people, so these are just my newb reasons.

[yuma]

I am completely behind. I have very little access for the next few days, possibly more. I'll post when I can, if I can. But not right now. Sorry guys.

[mail-mi]

I am completely behind. I have very little access for the next few days, possibly more. I'll post when I can, if I can. But not right now. Sorry guys.

Hope you feel better soon!

[ashersky]

I am completely behind. I have very little access for the next few days, possibly more. I'll post when I can, if I can. But not right now. Sorry guys.

vote: we all agree to give yuma a D1 pass.

[Teproc]

Deadline is December 19th right ? He might be back by then, we'll see. Of course we're not going to lynch him while he's absent, but there's really no point in having everyone say they won't lynch yuma if he turn out to be present in the last 3 days or something.

[ashersky]

Deadline is December 19th right ? He might be back by then, we'll see. Of course we're not going to lynch him while he's absent, but there's really no point in having everyone say they won't lynch yuma if he turn out to be present in the last 3 days or something.

I don't expect him to be reading along, but I know yuma well enough to know he'll feel guilty about not keeping up, and therefore will either try to get to a computer to read and contribute (when he should be focused on IRL matters) or feel badly about it at home, which doesn't help anything.

I want us, as a game community, to let yuma know that the next time he logs on, he can't just not worry about logging on again until everyone is well.

[Robz888]

I always give yuma a Day 1 pass anyway.

As for myself, I should be returning to my normal activity level soon. I'm flying back home tomorrow.

Unfortunately, my laptop broke again (for those keeping score, this is like the millionth time I've had to replace it, and this iteration is less than three months old), so I won't be as active tomorrow in the airport as I would have liked. I'll try to use my phone.

I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything.

[Voltaire]

I always give yuma a Day 1 pass anyway.

Same.

Except for when I try to get him mislynched D1 when we're both town. Which was an actual thing once. Twice? Twice.

[chairs]

Deadline is December 19th right ? He might be back by then, we'll see. Of course we're not going to lynch him while he's absent, but there's really no point in having everyone say they won't lynch yuma if he turn out to be present in the last 3 days or something.

I don't expect him to be reading along, but I know yuma well enough to know he'll feel guilty about not keeping up, and therefore will either try to get to a computer to read and contribute (when he should be focused on IRL matters) or feel badly about it at home, which doesn't help anything.

I want us, as a game community, to let yuma know that the next time he logs on, he can't just not worry about logging on again until everyone is well.

So you want us to guilt him into logging in while sick?

YUMA THIS GAME IS CLEARLY MORE IMPORTANT THAN REAL LIFE AND WE ARE DISAPPOINTED IN YOU!

(Just kidding, RL > Games, don't tear yourself up!)

[ashersky]

I'm policy voting anyone who votes for, complains about, or makes a case on Yuma on D1.

[mail-mi]

I am completely behind. I have very little access for the next few days, possibly more. I'll post when I can, if I can. But not right now. Sorry guys.

vote: we all agree to give yuma a D1 pass.

This.

Deadline is December 19th right ? He might be back by then, we'll see. Of course we're not going to lynch him while he's absent, but there's really no point in having everyone say they won't lynch yuma if he turn out to be present in the last 3 days or something.

I don't expect him to be reading along, but I know yuma well enough to know he'll feel guilty about not keeping up, and therefore will either try to get to a computer to read and contribute (when he should be focused on IRL matters) or feel badly about it at home, which doesn't help anything.

I want us, as a game community, to let yuma know that the next time he logs on, he can just not worry about logging on again until everyone is well.

This.

I'm policy voting anyone who votes for, complains about, or makes a case on Yuma on D1.

This.

[2.71828.....]

I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything.

I feel a lot like this right now. I have been super quiet, and I apologize. I will look to post a lot more in the coming days, but have been busy with work doing a bunch of short trips that take me away from my computer. I mean there was the whole claim thing (which I was right about, even if you do not think I should have claimed when I did) then we all kinds of for to a point of "let's not talk about this anymore" then the chairs thing, but not much else. I am pretty busy tonight and tomorrow but I will put some real effort into getting some reads Sunday. But I just feel as if there isn't a whole lot to go off of.

I guess I should do a random drawing them just tunnel the person I draw if nothing else happens.



(For the sake of clarity, that was a joke)

[Voltaire]

ash, why no plan?

[ashersky]

ash, why no plan?

Never played, nor am I familiar with, JK9++.

[faust]

Already did this, but again to summarize:

Don't lynch: Voltaire, chairs, Teproc, yuma, Ichimaru, faust
Could lynch: everyone else
Preferred lynch: ashersky

[ashersky]

Already did this, but again to summarize:

Don't lynch: Voltaire, chairs, Teproc, yuma, Ichimaru, faust
Could lynch: everyone else
Preferred lynch: ashersky

Faust is still 100% scum.  If you lynch me, this is the one thing I want you to take away.  Vigs shoot shoot Faust N1.  Roleblockers block him.  If he lives to D2, lynch him.

[faust]

Already did this, but again to summarize:

Don't lynch: Voltaire, chairs, Teproc, yuma, Ichimaru, faust
Could lynch: everyone else
Preferred lynch: ashersky

Faust is still 100% scum.  If you lynch me, this is the one thing I want you to take away.  Vigs shoot shoot Faust N1.  Roleblockers block him.  If he lives to D2, lynch him.

1. How on earth can you be so sure?
2. If you are town, what you're doing is not helpful in the least.
3. There are no Town Rolelockers in this setup.

[Teproc]

Unfortunately there's no Mafia Roleblocker either so it's not even a scumslip, it's just ash not paying attention to the setup.

Actually, that kind of sounds weird too. Ash, I understand you haven't played the setup before, but why have you not tried to "solve" it like you usually do ?

[liopoil]

In both games I modded the setup was new, created by me, ash was town in both games, and in both games he had a plan.

[mail-mi]

Heh. It's a weird feeling, a newbie actually has a town read on me. I think this is the first time this has happened. Anyway,

In both games I modded the setup was new, created by me, ash was town in both games, and in both games he had a plan.

Plan less ash? vote: ash good nuf for a d1 vote.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 1.3:

2.71828 (1): chairs
ashersky (2): Faust, mail-mi
Eevee (1): Yuma
Faust (1): ashersky
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (7): Robz888, Lekkit, Liopoil, Eevee, Teproc, 2.71828, Ichimaru Gin

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[yuma]

Wife is asleep, baby is asleep and finally able to get to the library to do some free time stuff....

rereading and posting as I go.

[yuma]

This his how I think you play D1: *I wanted to quote Galzria's explanation from that speccy thread, but I can't find it. Any help? You know the one I mean.*

Here it is Voltaire:

I still maintain that f.ds does d1 wrong.

You can't "make a case" worth beans against scum unless they honestly 'slip'.

A) "Contradictions" aren't scummy. Town changes their mind and their opinion MUCH more than scum.

B) Scum can feed distrust and suspicion. They can fan the flames, or play the buddy game. Scum rarely ever stays noncommittal. If there's an issue, they have a stance on it. Which side is up to them.

C) Multiplayer interactions. Focus on them. "IF 'X' THEN 'Y'" are far more valuable than "I'm sure 'X' is true and bias everything towards that".

Every town player there right now is trying too hard to finger scum. To catch them. That won't work d1. Flip it around. Don't look for that one good case for somebody being scum, look for reasons to eliminate people. Give them reasons to be town - or at least a reason not to lynch. Archetype, for example, should be off the table. PoE down based on not who's "most likely" to be scum, but instead by eliminating those "less likely" to be scum.

Finding scum needs real information. You can't have that d1. D1 is a different animal and needs to be treated with different guiding principles. Town(s) will continue to fail because they think they can catch scum when they can't. D1 lynches are FAR, FAR below average for hitting scum for a reason.

The trick is making reasonable arguments for certain people (Arch, here) to be removed from lynch candidacy. Arguments that most agree on. I wouldn't lynch TA, Arch, Yuma or (I think) Sudgy in this game. Post count alone gets them a d1 pass from me. Can scum post a lot? Yes, but it's harder. And while one might be scum, there's a very, very low likelihood that two are. So look elsewhere.

But TA is being pushed for "being scummy". People want a d1 case, and that's what you get. It's the wrong way to find scum d1.

Bolded the parts that I feel are the most pertinent. But more importantly I would say that it is probably too early to even start this process. I feel this process needs to begin 2-3 days before deadline because before that, there isn't even enough information to start eliminating people...

So I'll get back to you guys in a few days about this....

[yuma]

vote: mail-mi. Feel pretty good about this. Robz will back me up I think. mail-mi is voting me for playing the game, and not acting like himself at all.

Level-headed explanations to follow.

Don't like this at all.

[yuma]

Ok, this is starting to be a major part of this game, so let's reread chairs, trying to figure out what the hell everyone is talking about.

Fine, I'll just tell you.

I think chairs is either a PR or scum.

He clearly has a name to claim, and he thinks only PRs have names to claim.

I thought it through, and I don't see why scum would be the first to express confusion on this point. It's similar to the nkirbit "oh huh is that what town is called" in M31 for those of you who were in that game.

So, I think chairs outed himself as a PR.

and my question for you now is why did you feel it was necessary to even drop not so subtle hints about this... maybe scum wouldn't have noticed anything about this (assuming chairs is what you say he is) but they certainly began to notice once you started saying things like chairs is 99% town... why even bring it up?

maybe bring it up when chairs is getting a lot of pressure as evidence to not lynch him, but why be so blatantly obvious about it while pretending to be secret and sly. what purpose does that serve.

voltaire has done a couple of things that I find to be anti-town now (sorry if you disagree voltaire, but I think if you look back you will see this to be true). I don't necessarily think that means scummy, but I would encourage him to rethink how he is playing if he is town, is that a fair request to ask voltaire?

[yuma]

Lurker-yuma isn't scum yuma, lurker-yuma doesn't exist.

this. and I am not lurking, i am just absent. Sorry guys!

[yuma]

I always give yuma a Day 1 pass anyway.

and I still maintaing that I have done nothing to set myself apart from others to deserve a day1 pass every game. I found voltaire somewhat scummy (kinda buddying me up for later days?) for trying to give it to me last game (game of thrones), but he was town so obviously that didn't work...

[yuma]

I'll do a quick post count and then head out of here (this does include pre-game posts)

1. Voltaire - 83
2. Robz888 - 33
3. mail-mi - 24
4. Chairs - 29
5. Ashersky - 46
6. Yuma - 23
7. Ichimaru Gin - 17
8. Lekkit - 18
9. Liopoil - 11
10. Teproc - 47
11. 2.7 - 21
12. Eevee - 18
13. Faust - 21

Notes... voltaire is really, really high....

2.7 and faust are both lower than I would expect. I am obviously much lower than normal. Ash is actually about right where I would expect him (but he looks like he is lower compared to voltaire) So yeah, highlights I think are faust and 2.7 being low and Voltaire being high...

[liopoil]

how are we going to get this game moving? looking at that post count, I'm at the bottom. I've been around plenty, but really haven't had much to say about what little has happened.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Seconded.

[faust]

Unfortunately there's no Mafia Roleblocker either so it's not even a scumslip, it's just ash not paying attention to the setup.

Actually, that kind of sounds weird too. Ash, I understand you haven't played the setup before, but why have you not tried to "solve" it like you usually do ?

There is a Mafia JOAT with one-shot roleblocking.

[faust]

voltaire has done a couple of things that I find to be anti-town now (sorry if you disagree voltaire, but I think if you look back you will see this to be true). I don't necessarily think that means scummy, but I would encourage him to rethink how he is playing if he is town, is that a fair request to ask voltaire?

I second this.

[Voltaire]

voltaire has done a couple of things that I find to be anti-town now (sorry if you disagree voltaire, but I think if you look back you will see this to be true). I don't necessarily think that means scummy, but I would encourage him to rethink how he is playing if he is town, is that a fair request to ask voltaire?

Oh, I would agree with you that it was not handled well, in retrospect, but I ask you, what's the scum narrative here? It's actually quite nice now, in my eyes, because tons of people are calling me scummy for playing the game. That's actually a best-case scenario I think (expect for the whole chairs thing which, well, oops). I think I got a bit too excited about it because it really, really seemed to implicate ash.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

[faust]

voltaire has done a couple of things that I find to be anti-town now (sorry if you disagree voltaire, but I think if you look back you will see this to be true). I don't necessarily think that means scummy, but I would encourage him to rethink how he is playing if he is town, is that a fair request to ask voltaire?

Oh, I would agree with you that it was not handled well, in retrospect, but I ask you, what's the scum narrative here? It's actually quite nice now, in my eyes, because tons of people are calling me scummy for playing the game. That's actually a best-case scenario I think (expect for the whole chairs thing which, well, oops). I think I got a bit too excited about it because it really, really seemed to implicate ash.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

The way I understood yuma's post, he did not say you were scummy.

[Voltaire]

voltaire has done a couple of things that I find to be anti-town now (sorry if you disagree voltaire, but I think if you look back you will see this to be true). I don't necessarily think that means scummy, but I would encourage him to rethink how he is playing if he is town, is that a fair request to ask voltaire?

Oh, I would agree with you that it was not handled well, in retrospect, but I ask you, what's the scum narrative here? It's actually quite nice now, in my eyes, because tons of people are calling me scummy for playing the game. That's actually a best-case scenario I think (expect for the whole chairs thing which, well, oops). I think I got a bit too excited about it because it really, really seemed to implicate ash.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

The way I understood yuma's post, he did not say you were scummy.

I personally think it's implied. And you can't deny several other people have stated they want to lynch me. (yuma also claims I'm unusually high later)

[2.71828.....]

Yuma is correct to point out my low post count. I have not been as active as I should. I have a Christmas party that I have to go to right now, but I just finished a reread and will post my thoughts as soon as I get a chance either late tonight or sometime tomorrow.

Spoiler: i don't want to lynch Voltaire.

(That wasn't really the spoiler, I just don't want to throw out my lynch of choice without having the time to do justice to my case against him)

[Eevee]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

[Robz888]

Back in Detroit, will catch up soon.

[ashersky]

I hope you all realize the ridiculousness in lynching me solely for not having a plan.

[Teproc]

I hope you realize that I'd like an answer to my question : what made you not as interested in solving the setup here, as opposed to basically every other game ?

[ashersky]

I hope you realize that I'd like an answer to my question : what made you not as interested in solving the setup here, as opposed to basically every other game ?

I just didn't care much.  I was alive in two other games when this one started, plus modding, plus awards.  There is no "solving JK9++" anyway.

[ashersky]

Okay, I looked at the set-up.

It's C9++ but harder to solve (i.e., can't be solved).  We have no IC, so no way to start whittling away letter combos.  Gunsmith is literally the only claim that requires two of a letter, and even then we only get at least 2/7 of the rolls.

There's no way to solve JK9++ easily, and definitely not on D1.  You could mass claim, but it doesn't even help.  The scum team doesn't vary enough to matter.  At 4Ts, you add the JOAT possibilities.

There you go.  I just wasted 5 minutes of my life so you can be satisifed of another dumb meta-enforced requirement.  Plans, self-voting, etc. all happen whether I'm town or scum, people.

[liopoil]

There you go.  I just wasted 5 minutes of my life so you can be satisifed of another dumb meta-enforced requirement.  Plans, self-voting, etc. all happen whether I'm town or scum, people.

pretty sure that this is a meta you've intentionally tried to grow... if you want us to say things like "oh it's ash, self-voting is normal" then you have to live up to it.

Not that you necessarily should play up your meta. Honestly, I think it would be better if you DIDN'T do things like self-vote and so we don't expect you to do it and it's all better because self-voting is anti-town.

[ashersky]

There you go.  I just wasted 5 minutes of my life so you can be satisifed of another dumb meta-enforced requirement.  Plans, self-voting, etc. all happen whether I'm town or scum, people.

pretty sure that this is a meta you've intentionally tried to grow... if you want us to say things like "oh it's ash, self-voting is normal" then you have to live up to it.

Not that you necessarily should play up your meta. Honestly, I think it would be better if you DIDN'T do things like self-vote and so we don't expect you to do it and it's all better because self-voting is anti-town.

Making plans isn't harmful to town, though.  So why does that become a harmful meta issue?  I mean, really, people are voting for me not having a plan.  Having a plan, not having a plan -- it's so easy to argue either way that I expect scum to use it more often than town.

"Hey, ash came up with a plan, must have used his scum partners and his QT to make it."
"Hey, ash didn't come up with a plan, must be scum since his plans can help town and he doesn't want to help town."

See what I mean?  Plans should be null tells.

[ashersky]

Plan less ash? vote: ash good nuf for a d1 vote.

Like this, for example.

[mail-mi]

Okay, I looked at the set-up.

It's C9++ but harder to solve (i.e., can't be solved).  We have no IC, so no way to start whittling away letter combos.  Gunsmith is literally the only claim that requires two of a letter, and even then we only get at least 2/7 of the rolls.

There's no way to solve JK9++ easily, and definitely not on D1.  You could mass claim, but it doesn't even help.  The scum team doesn't vary enough to matter.  At 4Ts, you add the JOAT possibilities.

There you go.  I just wasted 5 minutes of my life so you can be satisifed of another dumb meta-enforced requirement.  Plans, self-voting, etc. all happen whether I'm town or scum, people.

Thank you. unvote.

Still think I'll vote: voltaire

[chairs]

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

[2.71828.....]

Ok. Here we go.

Eevee, teproc, liopoil, lekkit, IG, Yuma- null reads all around. Either you haven't posted anything that really caught my eye, you are new to me so I am not familiar(ish) with your style, or whatever. I just haven't seen anything that screams town or scum

Robz- leaving town, but he hasn't really had the chance to post much, so this could change, but for now I don't see myself voting him D1.

Voltaire- don't want to lynch him today. His post count is really high, and in a game that has been very slow I wouldn't want to lynch him unless he did something egregious. Now post count aside, he has done some things that I am not a fan of. Well, one thing really. I didn't like how he handled the chairs situation. The "secret case" that ended with him just telling everyone that he thinks chairs is scum or a PR. But had he been scum would he have done that? I think not. I think that was just him as town trying to share why he disagreed with anyone voting chairs, but eventually became him saying chairs is scum or PR. While some might call it a mistake, I think it came from town.

Chairs- going off Voltaire's case: scum or PR. I don't know, but I know I want to wait a day at least. Not lynching chairs today.

Mail-mi- voting ash because he didn't have a plan? Really? Not a fan of that, nor of the "vote Voltaire for secret case" thing. So slightly scummy, but not my vote. Yet.

Ashersky-  Zhang Fei is not my choice of lynch targets.  He is absolutely correct in saying that it seems totally impossible to solve JK9++ (at least this early).  I don't find the lack of a plan scummy either. I am leaning town on ash.

Faust- first post is a joke about getting lynched D1. Second post he jumps on ash for claiming and says ash is a good mislynch. Mentions policy lynching Voltaire for bringing up mass flavor-claiming.  He then throws out some "helpful" stuff about the setup. He has said a bit here or there since then, but it hasn't helped me shake the feeling that Faust is scum.

I will join Zhang Fei and vote: Faust

[mcmcsalot]

just so everyone knows, archetype and efhw will be helping out with with counts and processing the change from day 1 to night 1 and the start if day 2. They will give the pertinent flip info and additional flavor will be written upon my return.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Vote count?
I'm seeing things go in a couple of different directions, but not that sure which one I agree with most.
I'm thinking for now I'll vote: Voltaire
I've read over previous games, and seen what you guys are talking about regarding Ash normally having a plan, but I really don't think there's much of a case there.
Since I don't really have much of a handle on anyone's meta though, it's kinda hard to sort out all the accusations and stuff. So I figure I just have to go with my gut in the end, until I get more information. But that's pretty much what D1 is all about right?

[faust]

Ashersky-  Zhang Fei is not my choice of lynch targets.  He is absolutely correct in saying that it seems totally impossible to solve JK9++ (at least this early).  I don't find the lack of a plan scummy either. I am leaning town on ash.

Faust- first post is a joke about getting lynched D1. Second post he jumps on ash for claiming and says ash is a good mislynch. Mentions policy lynching Voltaire for bringing up mass flavor-claiming.  He then throws out some "helpful" stuff about the setup. He has said a bit here or there since then, but it hasn't helped me shake the feeling that Faust is scum.

I will join Zhang Fei and vote: Faust

e, why is my case on ashersky invalid? Also, which of the posts you linked do you find particularly scummy?

[Lekkit]

Allright, so I went back and looked at Voltaire since I've had a bad gut feeling about him. I found some interesting things. Bold emphasis mine.

Are we already so sold this is a good idea?  Based on my read of the setup, anybody who actually has a name to claim is a PR.

Really? Maybe that's the source of my confusion.

This is where Voltaire suggests that he's not a VT by saying that chairs might be right about No Face being a role rather than flavor.

Based on my read of the setup, anybody who actually has a name to claim is a PR.

vote: chairs

Here he votes for chairs for not being a VT. Under the assumption that No Face is not a role. Later unvotes, revotes and unvotes once again.

"No Face" doesn't mean "no name".

Takes the No Face is not a role stance once again.

Where can I find a list of who is a "face officer" and who is a "no-face" officer for these characters? I'm at a loss.

Back to No Face = flavor.

I am Zhuge Liang

Hold up. No-one else do this right now. Are you aware we are currently unclear if this just outs all our PRs?

Again reinforcning that No Face might be flavor.

That's why I asked if there's a wiki with a list of who the Face Officers and No-Face Officers are. Because I went to ash's name's page and it doesn't say he's face or no-face, so I'm quite confused.

Also, I do think I want to vote: chairs.

Still doing it. Also voting chairs again. On the assumption that he is no VT but trying to say that No Face might be just flavor and chairs may be right.

All this stuff makes me think Voltaire is vanilla or knows for a fact that No Face is in fact a role. Due to the fact that he's saying that No Face might be a role or just flavor, while his actions says that it's a role, and he knows it. However I'm not sure that makes him town.

Now onto the parts that I think are weird.

Also, massclaim and win? I don't see how mafia can claim any role but VT, and they might have trouble claiming a town alignment too. Point it out if there is something I'm not seeing.

I'm not sure how I, or anyone missed this the first time around. If we assume all scum and VT claim VT all we get is a VT/Scum and PR split. This seriously help scum. I'm assuming the setup is not broken since it's an established one. He actually calls for a roleclaim here and not a flavor claim later on changes it into a desire to flavorclaim.

Right, which is why I trust you here after you said your name - you're either a PR willing to be outed D1, a VT taking a reasonable risk, or scum seeing if they can get away with their claim/mislead town.

Also known as "Right, which is why I trust you here after you said your name - you're a player in this game." That's not a reason to trust someone.

I'm back to vote: Lekkit. To the scumhunting, gentlemen. Robz may or may not be able to help us with this flavor stuff later.

So far I think chairs is town, small town reads on e and Robz, null on everyone else.

"I'm back to RVS. Do your thing, guys and scumhunt!" By this point RVS is over. There's discussion going on. Why revert to it? And why encourage others to scumhunt while leaning back yourself?

If you're town, pretty-please go back and re-read that section. I agree that he came across that way. But he also did another thing. So he's town.

I think it is and should be (slowly) happening now (in the background of each player's head). I'll put forward a more serious explanation later.

Fine, I'll just tell you.

I think chairs is either a PR or scum.

He clearly has a name to claim, and he thinks only PRs have names to claim.

I thought it through, and I don't see why scum would be the first to express confusion on this point. It's similar to the nkirbit "oh huh is that what town is called" in M31 for those of you who were in that game.

So, I think chairs outed himself as a PR.

So... The secret case. That was so bad for town to claim. And yet he tried so hard to get people to get it. In the end he told everyone. As yuma(?) mentioned. It's a really weird thing to do as town.

Oh, I would agree with you that it was not handled well, in retrospect, but I ask you, what's the scum narrative here? It's actually quite nice now, in my eyes, because tons of people are calling me scummy for playing the game. That's actually a best-case scenario I think (expect for the whole chairs thing which, well, oops). I think I got a bit too excited about it because it really, really seemed to implicate ash.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

Voltaire's rebuttal to the secret case response by yuma. Ends it with his top scum reads. Earlier he said:

I am town. I think faust is not scummy. If ashersky is town, I can see how he could find faust scummy. We have the same alignment (maybe), but we disagree.

So basically, ash is his top scumread, but he's not entirely sure about it. Yet encourage people to vote for him without much of an explanation.

With all that said, I think Voltaire has done some things that are not really pro-town. But that does not always make you scummy. However expressing reads with so much determination as he has, backing away in the next post, and then going back to the super strong scum reads doesn't sound good in my ears. So far I think Voltaire is the scummiest around, and I will give him my vote.

Vote: Voltaire

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 1.4(mobile)

ashersky (1): Faust
Eevee (1): Yuma
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, mail-mi
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit

Not Voting (4): Robz888, Liopoil, Eevee, Teproc

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[faust]

Lekkit, wasn't it you who earlier argued that we shouldn't talk about the whole claiming thing because it might help scum? Why are you doing it now?

[Lekkit]

For two reasons.

One. People are doing it either way. Two. I think Voltaire comes off as very shady due to it.

Also there's a pretty significant difference between, "what does player x think about player y's thoughts on flavor claiming" and "this points to this person doing z".

[2.71828.....]

Scum are confident.

Town change their mind as new evidence presents itself.

I do not think Voltaire is scum.

[2.71828.....]

Faust please give a concise outline of your ashersky case. You didn't like him claiming before we "knew" the face/no face stuff about the setup and that he doesn't have a plan?

[Lekkit]

Scum are confident.

Town change their mind as new evidence presents itself.

I do not think Voltaire is scum.

Voltaire switches standpoints without any new evidence. He just turns, then turns again. And says he's maintained the same stance.

[2.71828.....]

I really think the secret case was just a mistake made by town. I do not think scum would try to secretly communicate that "I think X is a PR" because it sets you up poorly when you want to NK him. Sure scum want to lynch PRs if possible, but PRs can claim L-1 and usually avoid a lynch and end up getting NKed. By telling everyone he thinks chairs is a PR, Voltaire does himself no favors if scum. Just save that information for the scum speccy at night, then NK the PR.

[2.71828.....]

Scum are confident.

Town change their mind as new evidence presents itself.

I do not think Voltaire is scum.

Voltaire switches standpoints without any new evidence. He just turns, then turns again. And says he's maintained the same stance.

he switches his stand back and forth over a period of just under 2 hours. The very short time frame says to me that he is just saying his thoughts out loud. A lot. I would think scum are more reserved.

And put your quotes in chronological order next time. It really helps the flow of you read it like he actually posted it.

[faust]

Faust please give a concise outline of your ashersky case. You didn't like him claiming before we "knew" the face/no face stuff about the setup and that he doesn't have a plan?

The central point was already covered here:

Also, vote: ashersky.

That guy is always scum. I mean, in the last game I played with him, he was scum twice!

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

In short, he has a higher-than-average chance of being scum, and a lower-than average chance of being a PR.

Add to this that he wants to lynch chairs, who has a decent chance of being a PR. The whole "he doesn't have a plan thing" is nothing that points strongly toward ash being scum in my eyes, but he has been without plans in his most recent scum plays, so it fits with the rest. I also find it strange how he is "100% sure" that I am scum after like my first two posts.

[2.71828.....]

Faust please give a concise outline of your ashersky case. You didn't like him claiming before we "knew" the face/no face stuff about the setup and that he doesn't have a plan?

I just reread all your posts, and you did have a couple more reasons than what I started right here.

You think he is a good mislynch.
And you grab onto thin air by semi-sheeping Voltaire by saying ashersky is scummy for thinking chairs is scummy.

Just wanted to make sure I did full justice to your very scummy case against ashersky.

PPE: Faust

[2.71828.....]

His level of confidence is blah in my mind. He is just putting out strong statements to stimulate discussion.

By but what member of town talks about a good mislynch? Please give a town narrative for why that is not scummy

[faust]

His level of confidence is blah in my mind. He is just putting out strong statements to stimulate discussion.

By but what member of town talks about a good mislynch? Please give a town narrative for why that is not scummy

Well yes, his level of confidence is not so unusual for ashersky, I guess. But he did not even bother to make a case against me. He just stated "faust is scum!" without any reason at all, and didn't give reasons even after I asked him to.

This is D1. Are we going to find scum? Maybe, but likely not. A VT lynch is not the worst thing that could happen. What IS bad is outing our PRs. Games in which multiple PRs are forced to claim D1 usually end badly for town. So I aim for a player who, if town, is NOT a PR. And I do think that ash is likely scum. It's only, I know it's D1 and my reads may be completely off, so I need to consider the case where my suspect is town. It is for that reason that you don't lynch claimed PRs D1 even if you think they're scum.

[2.71828.....]

His level of confidence is blah in my mind. He is just putting out strong statements to stimulate discussion.

By but what member of town talks about a good mislynch? Please give a town narrative for why that is not scummy

Well yes, his level of confidence is not so unusual for ashersky, I guess. But he did not even bother to make a case against me. He just stated "faust is scum!" without any reason at all, and didn't give reasons even after I asked him to.

This is D1. Are we going to find scum? Maybe, but likely not. A VT lynch is not the worst thing that could happen. What IS bad is outing our PRs. Games in which multiple PRs are forced to claim D1 usually end badly for town. So I aim for a player who, if town, is NOT a PR. And I do think that ash is likely scum. It's only, I know it's D1 and my reads may be completely off, so I need to consider the case where my suspect is town. It is for that reason that you don't lynch claimed PRs D1 even if you think they're scum.

giving up on finding scum already.

*shakes head in dismay*

[2.71828.....]

And I am utterly unconvinced by your case against ashersky. It is random, based purely on gut feelings, and could very well end in a mislynch that you are ok with

[2.71828.....]

And ashersky's lack of a plan is almost a town read for me

[chairs]

Vote Count 1.4(mobile)

ashersky (1): Faust
Eevee (1): Yuma
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, mail-mi
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit

Not Voting (4): Robz888, Liopoil, Eevee, Teproc

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

is mail-mi really self-voting AND voting for Voltaire?  Or is that my vote on mail-mi?

[faust]

And I am utterly unconvinced by your case against ashersky. It is random, based purely on gut feelings, and could very well end in a mislynch that you are ok with

This is false. My case is based on
a) ashersky's stance towards claiming. You seriously think it's a nulltell that he flavor-claimed?
b) meta analysis. ashersky is known to come out with a plan D1. If he doesn't, well, that's notable a least.
c) who he suspects, and how he does so. If you're town and convinced that a player is scum, you try to convince others. ashersky doesn't. He also attacks someone who soft-claimed PR.

So this is all just "gut feeling"? If so, I fear every single case that can possibly be made D1 is just "gut feeling".

[faust]

And ashersky's lack of a plan is almost a town read for me

Why?

[faust]

His level of confidence is blah in my mind. He is just putting out strong statements to stimulate discussion.

By but what member of town talks about a good mislynch? Please give a town narrative for why that is not scummy

Well yes, his level of confidence is not so unusual for ashersky, I guess. But he did not even bother to make a case against me. He just stated "faust is scum!" without any reason at all, and didn't give reasons even after I asked him to.

This is D1. Are we going to find scum? Maybe, but likely not. A VT lynch is not the worst thing that could happen. What IS bad is outing our PRs. Games in which multiple PRs are forced to claim D1 usually end badly for town. So I aim for a player who, if town, is NOT a PR. And I do think that ash is likely scum. It's only, I know it's D1 and my reads may be completely off, so I need to consider the case where my suspect is town. It is for that reason that you don't lynch claimed PRs D1 even if you think they're scum.

giving up on finding scum already.

*shakes head in dismay*

Seriously, you should stop turning around everything I say so it appears scummy. You think I'm scum, I get that. But don't let this cloud your judgment. There is serious confirmation bias at work here.

[Robz888]

Okay I had some time to read.

I appreciate the effort put into these cases against Voltaire--lekkit's was remarkably thorough!--but I really just don't agree. Voltaire I think reacted like a normal town person would to new information. I think probably the best line of criticism against him is that he was very much on the lookout for a PR when the rest if us missed it. That's not enough for me in his case.

I would have to be ridiculously convinced that Voltaire was scum to vote for him on day 1.

Uh, so Voltaire thinks mail-mi is scum, why again? Just because, always?

I'm waffling on whether I think ash is scum. I don't think his lack of a plan is scummy, and his xplanation that he is just overburdened with other games and stuff right now makes complete sense. His certainty that Faust is scum is baseless, however, and I'm thinking that a higher level of scrutiny of ash's ridiculous statements is in order in general.

[2.71828.....]

Robz, ashersky's certainty over Faust might be off, but what do you think about Faust in general? Do you lean town or scum?

[Robz888]

Vote: liopoil

Now that we can talk about Toy Story mafia, my scum partner liopoil did a good job in later days, but I think he really struggled to make early contributions as scum. He is struggling with that here, too. In fact his most recent contribution was only to point out that he doesn't have any contributions.

[Robz888]

Robz, ashersky's certainty over Faust might be off, but what do you think about Faust in general? Do you lean town or scum?

Totally neutral. I like that he's contributing. Actually, the only time I saw scum Faust he was closer to a lurker, but I don't know he's just gotten more active as he's played more games. But anyway I have no reason to think he is scum here. Do you?

[2.71828.....]

Robz, ashersky's certainty over Faust might be off, but what do you think about Faust in general? Do you lean town or scum?

Totally neutral. I like that he's contributing. Actually, the only time I saw scum Faust he was closer to a lurker, but I don't know he's just gotten more active as he's played more games. But anyway I have no reason to think he is scum here. Do you?

I think he is scum right now. 

[Robz888]

Robz, ashersky's certainty over Faust might be off, but what do you think about Faust in general? Do you lean town or scum?

Totally neutral. I like that he's contributing. Actually, the only time I saw scum Faust he was closer to a lurker, but I don't know he's just gotten more active as he's played more games. But anyway I have no reason to think he is scum here. Do you?

I think he is scum right now.

Why? Did I miss your case?

[2.71828.....]

Robz, ashersky's certainty over Faust might be off, but what do you think about Faust in general? Do you lean town or scum?

Totally neutral. I like that he's contributing. Actually, the only time I saw scum Faust he was closer to a lurker, but I don't know he's just gotten more active as he's played more games. But anyway I have no reason to think he is scum here. Do you?

I think he is scum right now.

Why? Did I miss your case?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9840.msg326112#msg326112

The last paragraph.

[Robz888]

Robz, ashersky's certainty over Faust might be off, but what do you think about Faust in general? Do you lean town or scum?

Totally neutral. I like that he's contributing. Actually, the only time I saw scum Faust he was closer to a lurker, but I don't know he's just gotten more active as he's played more games. But anyway I have no reason to think he is scum here. Do you?

I think he is scum right now.

Why? Did I miss your case?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9840.msg326112#msg326112

The last paragraph.

Okay, that's something. The things you point out are true, just not actually very scummy individually I think. Maybe added together they are. I guess his posts have less content than I recalled, if your summary is fair. I'll move him down to sort of scummy then.

[ashersky]

I'd point out a few things in response to the last page or two:

1) motivation for Scum!volt to point out the chairs secret case: town cred (a la scum would keep quiet so he's probably not scum).  Regardless, don't lynch Volt on D1.

2) Faust is scra-scra-scrambling like a caught fish in a net.  So I mixed metaphors, but you know what I mean.  He's all "but he hasn't even made a case, how can ash know I'm scum already?!?!"  He's basically pulling a mail-mi.

[mail-mi]

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

If you think that pair has a good chance of having one scum, then why are you voting with them?

[mail-mi]

Vote: liopoil

Now that we can talk about Toy Story mafia, my scum partner liopoil did a good job in later days, but I think he really struggled to make early contributions as scum. He is struggling with that here, too. In fact his most recent contribution was only to point out that he doesn't have any contributions.

Good point.

My scumminess reads:
Voltaire
liopoil
faust
chairs
ash

[2.71828.....]

Vote: liopoil

Now that we can talk about Toy Story mafia, my scum partner liopoil did a good job in later days, but I think he really struggled to make early contributions as scum. He is struggling with that here, too. In fact his most recent contribution was only to point out that he doesn't have any contributions.

Good point.

My scumminess reads:
Voltaire
liopoil
faust
chairs
ash

I am guessing this is most scummy on top to least scummy on bottom.

[mail-mi]

Vote: liopoil

Now that we can talk about Toy Story mafia, my scum partner liopoil did a good job in later days, but I think he really struggled to make early contributions as scum. He is struggling with that here, too. In fact his most recent contribution was only to point out that he doesn't have any contributions.

Good point.

My scumminess reads:
Voltaire
liopoil
faust
chairs
ash

I am guessing this is most scummy on top to least scummy on bottom.

yes.

[2.71828.....]

Mail-no, could you please summarize your case against Voltaire? Has he done things you find scummy, or just things you see as anti-town?

[2.71828.....]

Mail-no, could you please summarize your case against Voltaire? Has he done things you find scummy, or just things you see as anti-town?

ugh auto correct. Sorry for messing up your name mail-mi

[mail-mi]

Mail-no, could you please summarize your case against Voltaire? Has he done things you find scummy, or just things you see as anti-town?

He's done some anti-town things (like drawing attention to chair's PR claim by making it secret and making a big deal out of it) and I also have a bad feeling. Not quite the eat-my-hat-if-he's-not-scum feeling, but still a scummy one.

[mail-mi]

Mail-no, could you please summarize your case against Voltaire? Has he done things you find scummy, or just things you see as anti-town?

ugh auto correct. Sorry for messing up your name mail-mi

On-Liam?  Please no. 

[2.71828.....]

Mail-no, could you please summarize your case against Voltaire? Has he done things you find scummy, or just things you see as anti-town?

He's done some anti-town things (like drawing attention to chair's PR claim by making it secret and making a big deal out of it) and I also have a bad feeling. Not quite the eat-my-hat-if-he's-not-scum feeling, but still a scummy one.

so your top scum read is based on a gut feeling and how he handled the chairs situation. I just don't find that a very good case, as I have started elsewhere. And I guess liopoil and the rest are all gut feelings as well, because I assume you would put someone who you had a case against st at #1 scum.

What do you think about my case against Faust and ashersky's insistence that Faust is scum?

[2.71828.....]

Scum are confident.

Town change their mind as new evidence presents itself.

I do not think Voltaire is scum.

Voltaire switches standpoints without any new evidence. He just turns, then turns again. And says he's maintained the same stance.

Where does Voltaire claim he maintained the same stance? I didn't see it in your summary post, where you painted Voltaire as scummy as possible.

[mail-mi]

Mail-no, could you please summarize your case against Voltaire? Has he done things you find scummy, or just things you see as anti-town?

He's done some anti-town things (like drawing attention to chair's PR claim by making it secret and making a big deal out of it) and I also have a bad feeling. Not quite the eat-my-hat-if-he's-not-scum feeling, but still a scummy one.

so your top scum read is based on a gut feeling and how he handled the chairs situation. I just don't find that a very good case, as I have started elsewhere. And I guess liopoil and the rest are all gut feelings as well, because I assume you would put someone who you had a case against st at #1 scum.

What do you think about my case against Faust and ashersky's insistence that Faust is scum?

The liopoil one is the thing that Robz pointed out, the similarity between him in Toy Story and him here. Your case against faust is good, I would vote for him if voltaire and liopoil aren't getting lynched. That's why he's my 3rd scum read.

[2.71828.....]

how are we going to get this game moving? looking at that post count, I'm at the bottom. I've been around plenty, but really haven't had much to say about what little has happened.

I tend to believe liopoil here, and thus do not like the robz case that mail-mi has adopted.  First lio says he totally disliked flavor claiming and says that flavor claiming is not what he signed up for. Then there is the whole chairs thing that he didn't really like either. So he had nothing additional to say about them. So lio is an admitted lurker, but I am not in the business of lynching lurkers, but scum.

Lio, what do you think about Voltaire and Faust?

[2.71828.....]

Lio, what do you think about Voltaire and Faust?

and ashersky

[2.71828.....]

Ichimaru, you are currently voting Voltaire. You didn't really mention any reasons, and when you tag on to reasons other people have made it is called sheeping and it is not a good place to be.  However, looking at another person's case against someone and understanding why that someone is scummy is fine for a new player. What your job as a new player to do is evaluate the pros/cons of each case and decide which one you like the best and go there. Then instead of trying to create your own case (which can be tough) you can expand on an existing case by starting what points you think are good or bad.

My question to you: what case do you think is the best case right now? Faust, Voltaire, Ashersky, and liopoil all have some sort of case or vote against them. What reasons do you have for saying that person is the scummiest?

[2.71828.....]

Eevee, you said Yuma built a case against Voltaire then explained it away himself. So who do you find scummy. If I were to lynch a lurker (which I don't want to do, but will if it comes down to it) you would be my choice of lurker. Because you have not said much of anything.

But it is time for thoughts. What do you think of my Faust case?

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.5

ashersky (1): Faust
Eevee (1): Yuma
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (1): Robz888
Not Voting (3):Liopoil, Eevee, Teproc

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[Robz888]

how are we going to get this game moving? looking at that post count, I'm at the bottom. I've been around plenty, but really haven't had much to say about what little has happened.

I tend to believe liopoil here, and thus do not like the robz case that mail-mi has adopted.  First lio says he totally disliked flavor claiming and says that flavor claiming is not what he signed up for. Then there is the whole chairs thing that he didn't really like either. So he had nothing additional to say about them. So lio is an admitted lurker, but I am not in the business of lynching lurkers, but scum.

Lio, what do you think about Voltaire and Faust?

To be clear, I don't think this is necessarily a general scum trait, I think it's a trait that liopoil has, specifically, as scum. Because I have seen it.

[liopoil]

Vote: liopoil

Now that we can talk about Toy Story mafia, my scum partner liopoil did a good job in later days, but I think he really struggled to make early contributions as scum. He is struggling with that here, too. In fact his most recent contribution was only to point out that he doesn't have any contributions.

not quite, I said something about ashersky's meta after that I think. but I can't exactly argue that I've been contributing today, yes. However, I think I've been struggling to make early contributions in any game as of late. Just really don't have much of anything that I find worth of note.

I see e has asked what I think of ashersky, faust, and voltaire. I'll go reread them, but I doubt I'm going to find much.

also, when e mentioned voltaire I had a moment where I was like "what? he's IC!". Still in Toy Story mode here...

[Teproc]

Reads, cause I feel lost right now so I need to organise my thoughts, and I might as well do it in the thread.

Voltaire : He has made very little sense this game. As Eevee eloquently proved, this makes him town. Just kidding... except not really. Seriously, his reads and votes are completely all over the place, in a way which I think is too extreme to be scum. He's just town who posts way too much. Town.

Lekkit : Made a good case on Voltaire which helped the transition into scumhunting. Town.

chairs : Not sure why, but this reread has given me a town read on him.

mail-mi : Has an incredibly anti-town meta, but seems slightly less scummy here. Slight town.

ashersky: Flavour claims too early, but it seems like something he'd do. Have we decided that his flavour was irrelevant to figuring out his alignement btw ? His reason for not having a plan was good. Slight town.

faust : His case on ash is weak but not unreasonable. Not much else to say. Null.

yuma: Absent but constructive. That's null for yuma I think.

Robz: I don't know. I have a bad feeling about him, but nothing concrete. Slight scum.

Eeevee : Lurking. Reasonable when he posts. Reminds me of GoT. Slight scum.

liopoil : Lurking. Apparently this might be a scum tell for him ? Slight scum.

Ichimaru : Playing up the newb card. A lot. The OMGUS seems forced newbishness. Surprised Robz hasn't commented on that. Scummy.

2.7 : Flavour claims too early, which I don't like at all. Same question as for ashersky as far as his flavour goes. What really gets me is the faust vote. I have a votes summary whrere I write down reasons, and here I wrote "Unclear why". That's already bad, but there were plenty of those in this game (looking at you, Voltaire). The problem is he then acts as if he had built an incredibly strong case on faust, so much so that he wants everyone to respond to it. There's nothing to respond too ! All you have is "I can't shake the feeling faust is scum." That's fine, but it's not actually a case. Which is exactly his objection to faust's case on ash. So yeah.

Actually, I've talked myself into a vote: 2.7 here. Summaries are scumhuntaries !

[2.71828.....]

Actually, I've talked myself into a vote: 2.7 here. Summaries are scumhuntaries !

I have actually heard that they are scummaries.

[2.71828.....]

As far as my case against Faust, I am in no way claiming that this is a perfect case. But it is actually a case. Today has been dominated by flavor, Voltaire/chairs, and not much else. When Ireread the thread, Faust such out to me. So I explained why, voted, and began asking other people to hopefully get someone to say something that resembles scum hunting. What is your case against me?  Other than that you don't like my scum hunting our my prodding of people to post.

[Teproc]

My problem is not your case per se. It's day 1, everyone's case is going to be weak. My problem is that you're trying to paint it as more than it is in order to look like a good active townie scumhunter.

Asking everyone to give their opinion about faust is leading town, which is scummy. Of course you could be town and just trying to get the game active. Sure. I just don't think you are.

[liopoil]

townread on voltaire. He's acting like he usually does as town, with things like "unvote, chairs is town. let's not say why" and "POEPOEPOEPOEPOE" and "Vote: mail-mi, here's a reason, levelheaded reasons later, oh-wait-that's-it". Sure, pretty easy to fake I guess, but eh.

pretty null on ash. I don't think not having a plan is a scumtell here, because a) there isn't a good plan to be had and b) ashersky doesn't always follow his meta, e.g., banker's beware. We shouldn't suspect him for that. but does it mean he's town? nope. oh, he flavorclaimed. hmmm. slight town?

not sold on the faust case. at all, I don't really get it. I think his suspicious on ash isn't really warranted, but for all I know, he could be right. I guess also slight town for being suspected for bad reasons.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichimaru, you are currently voting Voltaire. You didn't really mention any reasons, and when you tag on to reasons other people have made it is called sheeping and it is not a good place to be.  However, looking at another person's case against someone and understanding why that someone is scummy is fine for a new player. What your job as a new player to do is evaluate the pros/cons of each case and decide which one you like the best and go there. Then instead of trying to create your own case (which can be tough) you can expand on an existing case by starting what points you think are good or bad.

My question to you: what case do you think is the best case right now? Faust, Voltaire, Ashersky, and liopoil all have some sort of case or vote against them. What reasons do you have for saying that person is the scummiest?

You are right. I have heard that term before, but was unaware exactly what it meant.

I don't see much of a case against Ash. From what I understand, it's mostly based of him not doing what he normally does--analyzing the set a ton and having a plan. Considering this setup, that doesn't really strike me as scummy.

The case on Faust makes more sense.

Faust- first post is a joke about getting lynched D1. Second post he jumps on ash for claiming and says ash is a good mislynch. Mentions policy lynching Voltaire for bringing up mass flavor-claiming.  He then throws out some "helpful" stuff about the setup. He has said a bit here or there since then, but it hasn't helped me shake the feeling that Faust is scum.

I will join Zhang Fei and vote: Faust

This I mostly agree with. But I still don't see it as strong as the case against Voltaire. I only have one vote, and that's going to who I personally think is scummiest.

Concerning Voltaire, there are several things that make him the scummiest in my mind.
1. The really high post count. At the last count, he was significantly higher than anyone else. While this could be interpreted as just active town, I read it as a scum attempt to get town credit.
2. Lekkit's argument against Voltaire had a number of strong points that I agree with. Voltaire's assurance that Mafia  could really only claim VT just strikes me as odd, like he knows something that the rest of us don't.
(mostly going off of what Lekkit said from here on)
3. His response to Yuma's rebuttal of his secret case seemed really scummy to me. Not a lot of substance there, and an overall slippery feeling from that post. Like he was trying really hard to cast attention anywhere but himself.
4. And the way the whole secret case thing was handled in general.

Case on liopoil. I must admit I don't know much about it. I'll have to go back and look it over to see what I think of it.

[Teproc]

I guess also slight town for being suspected for bad reasons.

Huh ? How is that indicative of anything ? If scum wants to build cases against each other, they definitely will be weak cases to avoid actually creating a wagon.

[2.71828.....]

I guess also slight town for being suspected for bad reasons.

Huh ? How is that indicative of anything ? If scum wants to build cases against each other, they definitely will be weak cases to avoid actually creating a wagon.

scum would also be content letting this game lurk into night without any real scum hunting.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichimaru : Playing up the newb card. A lot. The OMGUS seems forced newbishness. Surprised Robz hasn't commented on that. Scummy.

I have. If that's the way you want to put it. I guess I just feel the reason to put a lot of qualifying statements out there partially because I'm having a little trouble keeping up with everything. And as an explanation if something I say is totally ignorant or nonsensical.
I feel that a lot of cases are based off of player's meta--something I know pretty much nothing about. The rest of you have a history of many games and are able to construct complex cases including that information. I on the other hand, I just have to take people's word when it comes to meta. For example, the case on Ash, is mostly based off what people see as a change in his playstyle. That argument just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, since it's almost purely constructed off of information I don't really have the ability to verify.
If you'd rather I stop putting those qualifying statements out there, I'll be happy to. I just don't want to come off like some jerk by saying a bunch of stuff when I may not know at all what I'm talking about.
I really am a newb, ok. I'm not some master whose disguising his identity and really knows far more than he lets on.
And if anything, my emphasis of noobishness only further proves my inexperience. If you want to take that as scummy, fine.

I'm just doing my best to get into the game and find out how to read people, and how other people read my behavior, so I can best find scum. Yeah, I may suck as new town, but I'm trying.

[liopoil]

I guess also slight town for being suspected for bad reasons.

Huh ? How is that indicative of anything ? If scum wants to build cases against each other, they definitely will be weak cases to avoid actually creating a wagon.

it means that if the only reasons they are being suspected are bad reasons, then there are likely no good reasons to suspect them

[2.71828.....]

Ichimaru: yes please, stop the qualifiers. Your most recent reads post was great and you are doing fine so far. Bringing up your newness doesn't help anyone. It looks like an excuse, and you don't get better by making excuses, but by learning from mistakes. So go for it. Speak your thoughts. And be confident. If you make a mistake, just learn from it and move on.

[ashersky]

Voltaire posting a ton is not scummy.  That's just Voltaire.

[Robz888]

Ichimaru : Playing up the newb card. A lot. The OMGUS seems forced newbishness. Surprised Robz hasn't commented on that. Scummy.

You're probably right, I just barely even pay attention to the true newbs on Day 1 because I know I'm not going to want to lynch them. I'm sure that's a bad way for me to play, but it's what I've sort of fallen into.

[liopoil]

Voltaire posting a ton is not scummy.  That's just Voltaire.

did someone say it was?

[ashersky]

Voltaire posting a ton is not scummy.  That's just Voltaire.

did someone say it was?

Ichimaru Gin.

[chairs]

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

If you think that pair has a good chance of having one scum, then why are you voting with them?

You're misconstruing my statement.  I don't think it has a -good- chance of having one scum.  I think it has a -bad- chance of being two scum.  I think it's 0-1 scum, and probably 0.

[ashersky]

So...game?

When's the deadline?  We've stalled out hard.

[Lekkit]

Scum are confident.

Town change their mind as new evidence presents itself.

I do not think Voltaire is scum.

Voltaire switches standpoints without any new evidence. He just turns, then turns again. And says he's maintained the same stance.

Where does Voltaire claim he maintained the same stance? I didn't see it in your summary post, where you painted Voltaire as scummy as possible.

Since when is this how ashersky plays? vote: ashersky.

Also, everyone should vote ash because chairs is one of his top scum reads.

agree totally. D1, we ask "Who's the scummiest?" and lynch them.

But see I think that is a terrible way to play D1, and it's why in the past f.ds usually lynches town D1 (we've gotten much better at this lately).

This his how I think you play D1: *I wanted to quote Galzria's explanation from that speccy thread, but I can't find it. Any help? You know the one I mean.*

Everyone should join me in lynching ash.

And I feel better about a mail-mi vote than an ash vote.

I am town. I think faust is not scummy. If ashersky is town, I can see how he could find faust scummy. We have the same alignment (maybe), but we disagree.

No, pointing out that my disagreement with ash may or may not be town v town. Since I don't know ash's alignment.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

[ashersky]

Not currently a fan of a Volt lynch.  We should get confirm scum Faust out of the way first.

[faust]

Well, while I fear there may be some OMGUS in this, e does appear different from his usual town self. He's usually reluctant to vote early on. I am also used to him making better cases han the one against me, but here of course my perception may be skewed because I know I'm town. What's interesting is that he is defending ash that strongly, which would be a dangerous move for scum to make D1. So one of them could be town. But, at this point, I also think that only one of them is town.

[Lekkit]

Why do you think only one of them is town?

[faust]

Why do you think only one of them is town?

Because I think both seem scummy, so I hope my scum sensor is accurate in at least one case.

[Lekkit]

So you don't really think one of them is scum, you hope?

[Teproc]

If you'd rather I stop putting those qualifying statements out there, I'll be happy to. I just don't want to come off like some jerk by saying a bunch of stuff when I may not know at all what I'm talking about.

The thing is, nobody here knows what they're talking about except for scum. On day 1, the info we have is ridiculously small. The goal is then to generate as much content as possible that will help us looking back in future days, and hopefully stumble into a correct lynch, but that's kind of unlikely unfortunately.

I understand the tendency to qualify your posts, but it reduces their impact. If you vote for me and act very unsure, I'm not going to feel too worried and, instead of trying to respond, I'll just wait for you to move your vote (if I'm scum, that is). Whereas if you do it a little more aggressively, you will elicit a response, just like I did with you there. I understand that there's a fear of sounding like an ass (which I may have in my post and if I did I'm sorry), but there is an understanding that this is a game that is all about accusing people. You don't have to be ridiculously confident in your reads like ash, but you should tyr to appear more confident than you actually are I think.

Also, the reason what you're doing is scummy is that it diminishes accountability. Later, when we look back on a scummy post you mad, you can just say "well I didn't really know what I was doing", rather than actually explaining why you did whatever it is we might find scummy later (ie once we have more info). And I had a bad feeling on your ash vote, like it was faked ignorance of OMGUS (which is generally considered scummy, or at least anti-town). Your response read quite towny though, so there's that.

Oh and that's also why I don't like talking about POE and day passes this early. Ichimaru could have just ignored me because, you know, he's not getting lynched today anyway ! I don't actually disagree about giving a day 1 pass to new players, but I don't think we should make a big deal out of it right away.

[faust]

So you don't really think one of them is scum, you hope?

Errr.... I think one of them is scum, and I hope that my thought are accurate?

[2.71828.....]

Well, while I fear there may be some OMGUS in this, e does appear different from his usual town self. He's usually reluctant to vote early on. I am also used to him making better cases han the one against me, but here of course my perception may be skewed because I know I'm town. What's interesting is that he is defending ash that strongly, which would be a dangerous move for scum to make D1. So one of them could be town. But, at this point, I also think that only one of them is town.

Ignoring the OMGUS, which I don't really mind, I will address your concerns about my play:

I am not my usual town self
1) I am reluctant to vote early on- This is somewhat true.  I do not usually like to vote early.  But you can see from Toy Story, for example, that I will vote early if I decide that a person is worthy of my vote.  In fact, I wish I had kept my initial scum read on Robz because he turned out to be scum!  Now, what would be more accurate to say is that I do not usually partake in RVS voting.  I did in this game, but quickly removed that vote as soon as we started discussing things.  I like to have my vote somewhere that I actually believe is scum.  Another point is that it is no longer early.  We have about 3 days until the deadline.  We need to get something rolling.  A vote is one way to help that along

2) I usually make better cases- Again, true.  I am glad that I have established some sort of meta for doing this after having only finished one game while in the midst of another currently.  I like to be rational and well thought out.  However, in a game where it is impossible to make a case against anyone because no one has done anything, I will make whatever case that I can.  When doing my reread, you popped off the pages with some scummy statements.  Let me go over them again:
       1) You made a joke about being lynched D1, which I find to be pretty scummy.  It is like saying "everyone remember that I have been lynched D1 in the past so you better not do it today."  In other words, trying to create a D1 pass for yourself
       2) You immediately jumped on Ash for claiming "early" before we "knew" that flavor names did not give away PRs.  Then you said that Ashersky makes a good mislynch because he claimed.  What are you trying to do?  Discourage other people from claiming because you are scum and haven't been given a fake claim?  (I will leave that there, I am not going back into a flavor discussion today)  Whatever you are doing, looking for a "good mislynch" is not where you want to be as town
       3) You move on to talking about policy lynching Voltaire for even bringing up the flavor stuff.  Scared of flavor that much?  Basically your reasoning is that Voltaire side-tracked town into an irrelevant discussion, and should therefore be lynched.  Well at least he moved us toward discussion, no matter how futile it ended up being.  But again, policy-lynching is something that takes little effort from you.  It tells nothing of your alignment or motives, because it was a "policy lynch."  A great place for scum.  Lynch a townie, escape free.

After reviewing my case again, I am wondering why you even brought up that "you are used to me making better cases."  Are you scared scum and want to discredit the case I made? Did you find this to be a good opportunity because others (Robz for example) do not find the case convincing?

As far as your point about defending Ash strongly:  True.  Because I think that he is town.  I have also defended Voltaire this game.  Because I think he is town.  I have town reads on both of them.  I still want them both to respond to the cases brought against them, but I thought that I would defend them, because people spending time on them is people distracted from the real scum, Faust.

[2.71828.....]

Scum are confident.

Town change their mind as new evidence presents itself.

I do not think Voltaire is scum.

Voltaire switches standpoints without any new evidence. He just turns, then turns again. And says he's maintained the same stance.

Where does Voltaire claim he maintained the same stance? I didn't see it in your summary post, where you painted Voltaire as scummy as possible.

Since when is this how ashersky plays? vote: ashersky.

Also, everyone should vote ash because chairs is one of his top scum reads.

agree totally. D1, we ask "Who's the scummiest?" and lynch them.

But see I think that is a terrible way to play D1, and it's why in the past f.ds usually lynches town D1 (we've gotten much better at this lately).

This his how I think you play D1: *I wanted to quote Galzria's explanation from that speccy thread, but I can't find it. Any help? You know the one I mean.*

Everyone should join me in lynching ash.

And I feel better about a mail-mi vote than an ash vote.

I am town. I think faust is not scummy. If ashersky is town, I can see how he could find faust scummy. We have the same alignment (maybe), but we disagree.

No, pointing out that my disagreement with ash may or may not be town v town. Since I don't know ash's alignment.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

Seems to me like he has been on Ash and mail-mi all game.  Not much variation there.

[Eevee]

Here goes some very rough POE:

Players:
1. Voltaire
2. Robz888
3. mail-mi
4. Chairs
5. Ashersky
6. Yuma
7. Ichimaru Gin
8. Lekkit
9. Liopoil
10. Teproc
11. 2.7
12. Eevee
13. Faust

Players 1-7 eliminated due to activity / general controversy surrounding them (and IG for being new, I agree it's no fun to start of your mafia career by getting lynched).

I wouldn't oppose my lynch if I didn't know my alignment, I know my performance this far has been lacking. Day 1s, I just don't see much happening.

Anyways, faust/Teproc have also been involved in a way I can remember, and Lekkit gets a pass for attempting a case on Voltaire, leaving me to a Vote: liopoil Robz's observations about his play being similar to Toy Story are a nice addition to my own PoE.

[2.71828.....]

Here goes some very rough POE:

Players:
1. Voltaire
2. Robz888
3. mail-mi
4. Chairs
5. Ashersky
6. Yuma
7. Ichimaru Gin
8. Lekkit
9. Liopoil
10. Teproc
11. 2.7
12. Eevee
13. Faust

Players 1-7 eliminated due to activity / general controversy surrounding them (and IG for being new, I agree it's no fun to start of your mafia career by getting lynched).

I wouldn't oppose my lynch if I didn't know my alignment, I know my performance this far has been lacking. Day 1s, I just don't see much happening.

Anyways, faust/Teproc have also been involved in a way I can remember, and Lekkit gets a pass for attempting a case on Voltaire, leaving me to a Vote: liopoil Robz's observations about his play being similar to Toy Story are a nice addition to my own PoE.

I marked off the people you talked about.  While I appreciate being above any suspicion, it is only fair if you at least mention me to mark me off your POE list

[faust]

So, let me respond to this.

1. Fair enough, I won't hold that against you.

2.1 So joking is scummy now? This is intersting coming from a guy who [REDACTED because ongoing game]. I did not look for a D1 pass. In fact, lynch me today if you feel you need to. I do admit I was a little annoyed because I was lynched D1 two times in a row, and would prefer if it didn't happen again.

2.2 So, consider the following, hypothetical situation: There's player A, who has a 50% chance to flip scum and a 50% chance to flip town PR. Then, there's player B with a 40% chance to flip scum and a 60% chance to flip VT. Which do you lynch? I would lynch B in this case - because it's better for town should he flip town. Sort of a minimax principle. This reasoning applies when I call someone a "good mislynch".

2.3 Hold on a second, I did not even policy vote Voltaire (and policy voting != policy lynching), and have stated since that Voltaire is out of my lynch pool for today. And my reasoning is not that the flavor discussion was irrelevant, it was that the discussion was actively hurting town.

[yuma]

voltaire has done a couple of things that I find to be anti-town now (sorry if you disagree voltaire, but I think if you look back you will see this to be true). I don't necessarily think that means scummy, but I would encourage him to rethink how he is playing if he is town, is that a fair request to ask voltaire?

Oh, I would agree with you that it was not handled well, in retrospect, but I ask you, what's the scum narrative here? It's actually quite nice now, in my eyes, because tons of people are calling me scummy for playing the game. That's actually a best-case scenario I think (expect for the whole chairs thing which, well, oops). I think I got a bit too excited about it because it really, really seemed to implicate ash.

I still have ash and mail-mi as my top scum reads so far.

The way I understood yuma's post, he did not say you were scummy.

I personally think it's implied. And you can't deny several other people have stated they want to lynch me. (yuma also claims I'm unusually high later)

It wasn't implied. Why do you think it was implied (are you overly paranoid about people thinking you are scum?)

If I think you are scummy I will say I think you are scummy. If I think you are being anti-town I will say you are being anti-town. In this case I think you were being anti-town and asked you to address the situation and rectify it if you are town as best you can... which you appear to have done, but it shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that you are scummy because of it... But you thinking that I was implying something is scummy.

[yuma]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

Again what?

If you want to vote for me, vote for me. But where is the scum narrative on Voltaire? What are you talking about?

[2.71828.....]

2.1 So joking is scummy now? This is intersting coming from a guy who [REDACTED because ongoing game]. I did not look for a D1 pass. In fact, lynch me today if you feel you need to. I do admit I was a little annoyed because I was lynched D1 two times in a row, and would prefer if it didn't happen again.

I hope joking isn't scummy.  It is just that the content of your joke comes across as a "you better not lynch me" sort of joke.  I enjoy a good joke as much as the other guy, as you can see from my play in toy story and [REDACTED], but have learned that it can get you in trouble.  You have to be accountable for everything you say, which is tough when you are making jokes and really don't want to have disclaimers at the end of every post (ruining the joke).  So while I am fine giving you a pass for the joke, it is still important to remember that you are accountable for the stuff you joke about.

2.2 So, consider the following, hypothetical situation: There's player A, who has a 50% chance to flip scum and a 50% chance to flip town PR. Then, there's player B with a 40% chance to flip scum and a 60% chance to flip VT. Which do you lynch? I would lynch B in this case - because it's better for town should he flip town. Sort of a minimax principle. This reasoning applies when I call someone a "good mislynch".

So Ash is player B since he claimed a flavor name?  And what, chairs is player A?  How about player C who has 60% shot of being scum, 40% shot of being VT?  I like those odds better.  (you are player C.  And don't come and accuse me about making up arbitrary percentages, you did the same thing.  I mean, I am being generous. By Ashersky standards it would by 100% shot of being scum, 0% shot of being VT)

2.3 Hold on a second, I did not even policy vote Voltaire (and policy voting != policy lynching), and have stated since that Voltaire is out of my lynch pool for today. And my reasoning is not that the flavor discussion was irrelevant, it was that the discussion was actively hurting town.

True, you did not policy vote Voltaire.  And true, flavor discussion hurt town.  But you were setting yourself up for another "He would make a good mislynch" target with that statement.  Which I find to be a little scummy

[yuma]

I kinda glossed over a lot of the thread just now... can someone summarize the argument that 2.7/faust were having...

actually let's to this... it worked really well in Toy Story with eevee/Robz

Can both 2.7 and faust both summarize their main points in 5 sentences or less?

But in the meantime... I am noticing that we have never had a serious wagon on anyone throughout the whole game... that is kinda weird.

vote: liopoil I agree with enough of Robz's points to put down a vote here....

[2.71828.....]

I find Faust scummy because:
  1) He made a joke to create a D1 pass for himself
  2) He was looking for "good" mislynches in Ashersky and Voltaire.  He expressed concerns about both of them, not because he had come up with great scum narratives for them, but because they are mislynches that wouldn't hurt town as much

[Eevee]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

Again what?

If you want to vote for me, vote for me. But where is the scum narrative on Voltaire? What are you talking about?

I'm referring to you saying "this is anti-town and Voltaire is doing it, however it's not pro-scum either, so not suspecting Voltaire for it". Your explanation for it was to instruct Voltaire to stop being anti-town, which is fine.

[yuma]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

Again what?

If you want to vote for me, vote for me. But where is the scum narrative on Voltaire? What are you talking about?

I'm referring to you saying "this is anti-town and Voltaire is doing it, however it's not pro-scum either, so not suspecting Voltaire for it". Your explanation for it was to instruct Voltaire to stop being anti-town, which is fine.

So why would you vote me for that?

[Teproc]

Anything that is anti-town is pro-scum. Being anti-town is not necessarily scummy (ie an indicative of being scum), but it's definitely pro-scum.

I still don't see what's scummy about faust's joke. It was very early in the day, and he did get mislynched twice in a very short amount of time. It made me smile and I really didn't think much of it. I certainly didn't think he was trying to avoid getting lynched with that.

[2.71828.....]

Ok, so the case against Liopoil that Robz brought up:  Liopoil struggles to contribute as scum D1.  Liopoil is not contributing today.  Liopoil is scum. 

I think we can do better than that.  However, I do agree with the concern that we do not have a single wagon today.  I mean, not even an RVS wagon. 

[faust]

@yuma, my argument with e:

There was some ambiguity as to whether non-PRs had names, and I believe ashersky's flavor-claiming despite that ambiguity means he is not a PR (=either VT or scum). So I voted for ashersky, which e apparently finds scummy (note that he also flavor-claimed early). I find e's reaction since a little over the top and don't understand why he thinks ash is town. I am trying to convince him I'm town, but that seems to be futile endeavour.

PPE: 5

[Eevee]

I think yuma built a scum narrative for Voltaire but then explained it away himself.

I would vote yuma here, but he is vla + also often killed by scum if he is town, so I just don't think he can be a good day 1 lynch, whatever he says.

Again what?

If you want to vote for me, vote for me. But where is the scum narrative on Voltaire? What are you talking about?

I'm referring to you saying "this is anti-town and Voltaire is doing it, however it's not pro-scum either, so not suspecting Voltaire for it". Your explanation for it was to instruct Voltaire to stop being anti-town, which is fine.

So why would you vote me for that?

I guess I felt like you were trying to throw mud around without getting your own hands dirty (day 1 cases built around an antitown mistake someone made have often been popular in the past).

[yuma]

One thing has jumped out to me in my reread/skim....

11. 2.7 - 21

13. Faust - 21

current post count:

2.7 - 53
faust - 35

Both of these players started at 21 posts when I did my first vote count. Since then 2.7 has amped up his posting dramatically....

starting with:

Yuma is correct to point out my low post count. I have not been as active as I should. I have a Christmas party that I have to go to right now, but I just finished a reread and will post my thoughts as soon as I get a chance either late tonight or sometime tomorrow.

This rings kinda like Grujah in MXI where he was called out for lurking and then quickly amped up his posting as a result. I hate finding this sort of stuff suspicious because it has the potential to discourage posting in future situations, but I do think lurking and then not lurking after being called out is something of a scumtell... as opposed to lurking, getting called out and continuing to semi-lurk.... mafia cares about being perceived as lurking, town... unfortunately often doesn't care at all...

[faust]

So Ash is player B since he claimed a flavor name?  And what, chairs is player A?  How about player C who has 60% shot of being scum, 40% shot of being VT?  I like those odds better.  (you are player C.  And don't come and accuse me about making up arbitrary percentages, you did the same thing.  I mean, I am being generous. By Ashersky standards it would by 100% shot of being scum, 0% shot of being VT)

I just gave an abstract example, A and B weren't meant to correspond to actual players in this game. Also, how come you think I have a 0% chance of being a PR?

[2.71828.....]

I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything.

I feel a lot like this right now. I have been super quiet, and I apologize. I will look to post a lot more in the coming days, but have been busy with work doing a bunch of short trips that take me away from my computer. I mean there was the whole claim thing (which I was right about, even if you do not think I should have claimed when I did) then we all kinds of for to a point of "let's not talk about this anymore" then the chairs thing, but not much else. I am pretty busy tonight and tomorrow but I will put some real effort into getting some reads Sunday. But I just feel as if there isn't a whole lot to go off of.

I guess I should do a random drawing them just tunnel the person I draw if nothing else happens.



(For the sake of clarity, that was a joke)

This was before Yuma's post count and calling me out on it.  I guess I sort of followed my joke about picking someone to tunnel, but varied from the joke in that it was not a random "draw out of the hat" tunnel.  It was because in my reread he was the one who came up scummiest.  And we had to start somewhere

[faust]

Ok, so the case against Liopoil that Robz brought up:  Liopoil struggles to contribute as scum D1.  Liopoil is not contributing today.  Liopoil is scum. 

I think we can do better than that.  However, I do agree with the concern that we do not have a single wagon today.  I mean, not even an RVS wagon.

Well, to be fair, the case against liopoil isn't worse than the case you made against me. But it seems the only cases you deem worthy are those supported by you.

[2.71828.....]

So Ash is player B since he claimed a flavor name?  And what, chairs is player A?  How about player C who has 60% shot of being scum, 40% shot of being VT?  I like those odds better.  (you are player C.  And don't come and accuse me about making up arbitrary percentages, you did the same thing.  I mean, I am being generous. By Ashersky standards it would by 100% shot of being scum, 0% shot of being VT)

I just gave an abstract example, A and B weren't meant to correspond to actual players in this game. Also, how come you think I have a 0% chance of being a PR?

I do not know that.  In this game, it is impossible to know PRs D1 unless they claim at L-1. (hopefully we don't get a town PR to L-1)  So it is entirely possible that you are a PR, but I kind of just threw it out because that is almost impossible to tell on anyone.  So say everyone defaults to 20% chance of PR (except we might give chairs a higher %) then just take my odds and adjust accordingly

[2.71828.....]

I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything.

I feel a lot like this right now. I have been super quiet, and I apologize. I will look to post a lot more in the coming days, but have been busy with work doing a bunch of short trips that take me away from my computer. I mean there was the whole claim thing (which I was right about, even if you do not think I should have claimed when I did) then we all kinds of for to a point of "let's not talk about this anymore" then the chairs thing, but not much else. I am pretty busy tonight and tomorrow but I will put some real effort into getting some reads Sunday. But I just feel as if there isn't a whole lot to go off of.

I guess I should do a random drawing them just tunnel the person I draw if nothing else happens.



(For the sake of clarity, that was a joke)

This was before Yuma's post count and calling me out on it.  I guess I sort of followed my joke about picking someone to tunnel, but varied from the joke in that it was not a random "draw out of the hat" tunnel.  It was because in my reread he was the one who came up scummiest.  And we had to start somewhere

This doesn't really respond to this very much because as scum I could have realized I needed to up my activity D1 anyway

I do think lurking and then not lurking after being called out is something of a scumtell... as opposed to lurking, getting called out and continuing to semi-lurk.... mafia cares about being perceived as lurking, town... unfortunately often doesn't care at all...

But it does show my increased activity wasn't a pure reaction to yuma calling me out

[2.71828.....]

Ok, so the case against Liopoil that Robz brought up:  Liopoil struggles to contribute as scum D1.  Liopoil is not contributing today.  Liopoil is scum. 

I think we can do better than that.  However, I do agree with the concern that we do not have a single wagon today.  I mean, not even an RVS wagon.

Well, to be fair, the case against liopoil isn't worse than the case you made against me. But it seems the only cases you deem worthy are those supported by you.

Actually, it is more of a "I don't like lynching lurkers after my ordeal with Archetype in Toy Story went sour" kind of things.

[Teproc]

The question here is : does liopoil lurk as town ? I'm trusting Robz in his assesment of scum! liopoil, but it's only relevant if liopoil is more active as town. I'd do the research, but... you know.

[yuma]

Also I am suspicious of people who tried to PoE too early. I think the earliest that could have been done was when eevee did it just a few hours ago (I mean the line isn't that obvious, but especially in the early days there just wans't enough information to eliminate people from anything in my opinion....)

As a result I wonder if people who were using PoE too early were players trying to make it look like they were townie and actively scum hunting (or the inverse town eliminating) but doing so so early that it was possible for them to do so without any sort of repercussions and not really basing it off anything (exactly what scum wants to do)...

chairs was the first to do so 3 hours after the start of day...

and then chairs asks if we should start making PoE lists again this is 1 day after the start of the game...

Voltaire responds with a list:

faust joins in 2 days after game start:

mail-mi and ichimaru join in, but they are doing more of pops style reads... so I don't mind this quite as much as it isn't too early PoE, but just putting out reads at the time...

again from Galz on why PoE, when done the right way is good:

Every town player there right now is trying too hard to finger scum. To catch them. That won't work d1. Flip it around. Don't look for that one good case for somebody being scum, look for reasons to eliminate people. Give them reasons to be town - or at least a reason not to lynch. Archetype, for example, should be off the table. PoE down based on not who's "most likely" to be scum, but instead by eliminating those "less likely" to be scum.

Finding scum needs real information. You can't have that d1. D1 is a different animal and needs to be treated with different guiding principles. Town(s) will continue to fail because they think they can catch scum when they can't. D1 lynches are FAR, FAR below average for hitting scum for a reason.

The trick is making reasonable arguments for certain people (Arch, here) to be removed from lynch candidacy. Arguments that most agree on.

Emphasis on the reasonable arguments part. I would say all of the PoE done up to this point--not this post, but up to the ones I have included in this post--were done too early to be reasonable...

As a result I question why they were even done. To me it just looks like players who wanted to look like they were being productive town members trying to get some town points w/o actually needing to do the work or put down the strong opinion on something as at this point there wasn't enough to put down a strong opinion on anything...

This isn't a surefire point, and I am not voting anyone because of it because I could see town players thinking that doing this would be beneficial for some reason... but I am wary of those who did.

[yuma]

The question here is : does liopoil lurk as town ? I'm trusting Robz in his assesment of scum! liopoil, but it's only relevant if liopoil is more active as town. I'd do the research, but... you know.

yes, he does to an extent. I would surmise that he lurks more as scum in general (basing this off B2B and Toy Story). But of late he has lurked in most games (modern community and harry potter he was town and toward the bottom I believe)

[yuma]

Ok, so the case against Liopoil that Robz brought up:  Liopoil struggles to contribute as scum D1.  Liopoil is not contributing today.  Liopoil is scum. 

I think we can do better than that.  However, I do agree with the concern that we do not have a single wagon today.  I mean, not even an RVS wagon.

Well, to be fair, the case against liopoil isn't worse than the case you made against me. But it seems the only cases you deem worthy are those supported by you.

Actually, it is more of a "I don't like lynching lurkers after my ordeal with Archetype in Toy Story went sour" kind of things.

Try not to ahve this train of thought. Rarely are we going to have town players purposefully lurking to get themselves lynched while watching the thread but not saying anything just because... most of the time town isn't going to be that anti-town and lynching lurkers will result in hitting scum...

More important what you should have taken from Toy Story was how mafia systematically killed off the most active players (you, me, Voltaire, ash) and left town with 3 extremely low posters in the last day to stall out the game and kill off any discussion and analysis...

[Voltaire]

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

I would love to! But I'm catching up after being away all weekend, has there been a recent votecount?

[Teproc]

Voltaire (3) : mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (2) : Robz, Eevee, yuma
faust (2) : ashersky 2.7
mail-mi (2) : Voltaire, chairs
ashersky (1) : faust
2.7 (1) : Teproc

Not voting (1) : liopoil

I think this is accurate.

[Teproc]

Well it should say liopoil (3).

[Voltaire]

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

I would love to! But I'm catching up after being away all weekend, has there been a recent votecount?

mail-mi (2) : Voltaire, chairs

Ha! Shows how much I remember.

Town read on Lekkit right now.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I have finals tomorrow and the next. So I will not be able to post much. And just when things were starting to pick up. . .
I will address much upon my return.

[faust]

Looking at the vote count, I'd be willing to switch my vote to liopoil or mail-mi if needed. Still prefer ash though.

[Robz888]

I can't believe Voltaire has more votes than liopoil. Voltaire is like doing a lot of stuff at least. At a minimum, we kind of need that.

[Voltaire]

It wasn't implied. Why do you think it was implied (are you overly paranoid about people thinking you are scum?)

If I think you are scummy I will say I think you are scummy. If I think you are being anti-town I will say you are being anti-town. In this case I think you were being anti-town and asked you to address the situation and rectify it if you are town as best you can... which you appear to have done, but it shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that you are scummy because of it... But you thinking that I was implying something is scummy.

Nope. Do you think I'd be that obvious? 

[Voltaire]

I find Faust scummy because:
  1) He made a joke to create a D1 pass for himself
  2) He was looking for "good" mislynches in Ashersky and Voltaire.  He expressed concerns about both of them, not because he had come up with great scum narratives for them, but because they are mislynches that wouldn't hurt town as much

Does scum call someone a good mislynch? I don't see it.

The only reason I'm willing to entertain the notion of ash being right about faust is because he called mcmc (or was it mail-mi?) D1 in lio's talbe game (whatever it was). Of course, he also called the scumteam D1 and was only 50% right, and smaller game, and odds/blind-squirrel etc. but it'll certainly be floating around in the back of my mind (especially if ash flips town at some point).

[Voltaire]

The case on mail-mi: being normal mail-mi, and also appearing to be trying. That's how you find scum!mail-mi. For D1, I'm reasonably happy with this.

Yuma, as far as your "POE too early" argument, I feel like there could be merit to it. But (and I made this clear when I posted mine) there's some early stuff you can always do. For example, Ichi and yourself were never going to be in my lynch pool.

I think e comes off much scummier than faust. In fact, e seems to be behaving differently than he did in Toy Story (where he came across as scummy to me, but, upon reflection, not the kind of true scumminess you'll see in games). He'll be wroth a re-read.

Voltaire - me
Robz888
mail-mi
Chairs - the PR or scum thing, and the fact that I do not see chairs with that sort of a plan as scum
Ashersky
Yuma - yuma
Ichimaru Gin - new (also a town read)
Lekkit - his case on me gives me a town read
Liopoil
Teproc
2.7
Eevee
Faust

That's unfortunately large. Here they are by willingness to lynch, from most to least:

mail-mi - I think I have a pretty good case against mail-mi for D1.
2.7 - recent play is strange!
Ashersky - opening play odd, no plan, and statements of opinions/non-existent occurrences as fact. Makes no sense to me.
Liopoil - lurking, doing nothing. Happy to vote here.
Teproc - seems different, but nothing obvious.
Robz888 - actually feel ok about Robz right now.
Eevee - nothing.
Faust - comes across as town, actually. Wait, what is he doing here? He's out of the pool.

[yuma]

I can't believe Voltaire has more votes than liopoil. Voltaire is like doing a lot of stuff at least. At a minimum, we kind of need that.

agreed. Who is voting for him?

FOS: mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit

Also FOS: liopoil for not currently voting and for never have voting

[yuma]

Looking at the vote count, I'd be willing to switch my vote to liopoil or mail-mi if needed. Still prefer ash though.

move it. Ash isn't getting lynched today.

[yuma]

I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything.

I feel a lot like this right now. I have been super quiet, and I apologize. I will look to post a lot more in the coming days, but have been busy with work doing a bunch of short trips that take me away from my computer. I mean there was the whole claim thing (which I was right about, even if you do not think I should have claimed when I did) then we all kinds of for to a point of "let's not talk about this anymore" then the chairs thing, but not much else. I am pretty busy tonight and tomorrow but I will put some real effort into getting some reads Sunday. But I just feel as if there isn't a whole lot to go off of.

I guess I should do a random drawing them just tunnel the person I draw if nothing else happens.



(For the sake of clarity, that was a joke)

This was before Yuma's post count and calling me out on it.  I guess I sort of followed my joke about picking someone to tunnel, but varied from the joke in that it was not a random "draw out of the hat" tunnel.  It was because in my reread he was the one who came up scummiest.  And we had to start somewhere

Does this feel like an attempt to justify behavior by manipulating his own quote to make it look like something that it wasn't originally?

When I first saw the quote he is presenting I thought it was a sarcastic rewrite--and valid  rewrite--of Robz's post saying basically that "there wasn't anything to comment on except for a whole bunch of stuff... I mean he even calls it a joke in that post

But now 2.7 is saying that it was a post that he wrote showing that he wasn't posting very much and that it woke him up, not my post count saying that he wasn't posting much...

This looks like a stretch to me. a scummy stretch vote: 2.7

[2.71828.....]

Voltaire - His activity has been good.  The case Lekkit brings against Voltaire and the summaries he gave with that make me lean more town!Voltaire than scum!Voltaire

Robz888 - He has been relatively quiet, and hasn't been arguing with Voltaire, so I don't know what to do with him.  It would take a lot to convince me to vote Robz right now.

mail-mi - Voting Voltaire right now, but hasn't been around a whole lot.  Voltaire could you go over your case on mail-mi again?  You cited "mail-mi is voting me for playing the game, and not acting like himself at all" for your reason behind voting him.  Is there anything more now that some time has passed?

Chairs - The whole PR thing.  Off the table for now

Ashersky - Things people have brought against him: No plan, early claim, strange play.  They don't add up to scum for me.  But they don't add up to town either.  SK?  (total speculation, no basis at all) I don't think strange play is a reason to lynch anyone though, so off my list.

Yuma - Yuma (copying Voltaire here)

Ichimaru Gin - new + towny

Lekkit - I disagree with him about his case on Voltaire.  Also, has posted enough to be put in with the lurkers, probably because he did build an extensive (even though I disagree with it) case against Voltaire.  But that is all he has done.  His case and lack of content elsewhere are bringing him towards the top of my scum reads

Liopoil - Needs to show up and play.  As an excuse for his absence from the game he said "However, I think I've been struggling to make early contributions in any game as of late. Just really don't have much of anything that I find worth of note."  Hopefully he finds something "of note" to talk about now.

Teproc - null right now. He has been posting and is generally useful though so I will cross him off

2.7 - obv!town

Eevee - Needs to show up and play

Faust - Leaning scum.

PPE: Yuma's last 3 posts

[2.71828.....]

When I first saw the quote he is presenting I thought it was a sarcastic rewrite--and valid  rewrite--of Robz's post saying basically that "there wasn't anything to comment on except for a whole bunch of stuff... I mean he even calls it a joke in that post

For the sake of clarity, I was only joking about that very last part about drawing a name out of a hat and tunneling that person.  I was not joking about the other stuff.  Basically, there was nothing for me to say except "I told you so" because mcmc confirmed everything that I thought about the setup. (like everyone gets a name)  And about the "secret case" that Voltaire presented, which I understood immediately, but people kept pressing so he eventually said what he meant to everyone.  So I could post "I told you so" which doesn't come across great, or nothing.  Which is what I did for a while until I did my reread as promised

[Robz888]

Just for the future, never tell jokes. Because you are like rightly I think being scrutinized for something that very well may be nothing.

[Robz888]

If that makes any sense.

[2.71828.....]

I am not claiming that any post "woke me up."  I am claiming that I knew I was really short on post count, and that is not where you want to be as town.  Scum likes to lurk.  Because then they don't have to say anything.  Town [should] like to have multiple D1 wagons, lots of discussion, and strong positions from everyone to use as reference points for later days.  The game was stagnating, as you mentioned.  After I flip town (eventually) you will see that I really was just trying to kickstart the game into action.

[2.71828.....]

Just for the future, never tell jokes. Because you are like rightly I think being scrutinized for something that very well may be nothing.

yeah, which is why I wanted to clarify my statement about tunneling someone as a joke.  Which I ended up not being as precise as I wanted and caused confusion.

At least you can say that me getting into trouble for jokes is not "strange play" for me.

[Teproc]

Actually town doesn't care, or shouldn't care, about the post count. You should be active, but the post count is not that great at measuring activity. Like, Voltaire has not been twice as active as anyone else in the game for example (he's been active obviously, but not that much more than other people).

I don't get how yuma could have thought that whole post was a joke to be honest, it was pretty clear to me that it only referred to the hat thing.

[Robz888]

Actually town doesn't care, or shouldn't care, about the post count.

I don't about that. The post count, at certain points in past games, has been a good way to find scum. I don't know if it is now, or in this game particularly.

[Teproc]

I think I didn't express myself very clearly here. I do think the post count is a useful tool, that's why I keep one. But I don't think, as town, you should worry about where you end up on the post count yourself. Do you see what I mean ?

[Eevee]

Actually town doesn't care, or shouldn't care, about the post count.

I don't about that. The post count, at certain points in past games, has been a good way to find scum. I don't know if it is now, or in this game particularly.

That's not very helpful if you can't identify the situations where the post count is a good way to find scum.

[ashersky]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

[2.71828.....]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

somehow I don't think that will happen.....no one seems to be picking up our little wagon.  Pretty anti-town of them if you ask me.  Yuma was complaining about no wagons, we could have had one right here but instead they try to build one on liopoil?

[2.71828.....]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

But, while are at it, you clearly still believe Faust is scum.  Could you outline your reasons again for clarity?  I don't believe you ever really laid out point by point why you think he is scum

[ashersky]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

somehow I don't think that will happen.....no one seems to be picking up our little wagon.  Pretty anti-town of them if you ask me.  Yuma was complaining about no wagons, we could have had one right here but instead they try to build one on liopoil?

Yeah.  The norm is no one listens to me until it's too late, though.

The truth of the matter is, Faust was pushing for a Zd1 mislynch, on purpose.  Then, he said he was doing it (that admission was likely a mistake).  Literally, only scum works purposefully for a mislynch with that goal in mind.

I called him out on it, so now he's been forced to continue the "trying to mislynch is pro-town!" narrative, which is bonkers.  He literally said he prefers to lynch a 60% town chance instead of a 50% town chance.  Who wants to lynch town?  Scum.

[ashersky]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

But, while are at it, you clearly still believe Faust is scum.  Could you outline your reasons again for clarity?  I don't believe you ever really laid out point by point why you think he is scum

This was PPE, but I think I a answered it anyway.

[Voltaire]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

Please state, as clearly as possible, the case on faust. "faust is scum" is not a case.

[Eevee]

I do think ash is wrong about the severity of a mislynch not mattering at all, of course it does. I could see myself wanting to lynch someone who in my eyes is less likely to be scum, must have happened more than once in fact.

[Voltaire]

I called him out on it, so now he's been forced to continue the "trying to mislynch is pro-town!" narrative, which is bonkers.  He literally said he prefers to lynch a 60% town chance instead of a 50% town chance.  Who wants to lynch town?  Scum.

You're the one being bonkers here. faust gave an entirely reasonable explanation for this.

[Teproc]

ash is being ridiculous. I don't know what it means as far as his alignment goes though. Probably townish, because [REDACTED].

[ashersky]

I called him out on it, so now he's been forced to continue the "trying to mislynch is pro-town!" narrative, which is bonkers.  He literally said he prefers to lynch a 60% town chance instead of a 50% town chance.  Who wants to lynch town?  Scum.

You're the one being bonkers here. faust gave an entirely reasonable explanation for this.

No he didn't.  What "reasonable explanation" has he given for why it is better to lynch town than scum?

Here are lynch options, as present:

town
scum

That's it.  2 options.  I'm arguing that "scum" is the option we should lynch.  Faust (and it seems, you) is arguing that we should lynch "town."  Role has nothing to do with alignment, so no BS "he might be a PR" crap.  We should LYNCH SCUM, NOT TOWN.

There is no reasonable explanation for why someone wants to lynch TOWN instead of lynching SCUM.  (I'm sure there's an edgecase involving multiball and endgames, but for the purposes of today, this is true.)

[ashersky]

I do think ash is wrong about the severity of a mislynch not mattering at all, of course it does. I could see myself wanting to lynch someone who in my eyes is less likely to be scum, must have happened more than once in fact.

You mean faust?

I'm the one arguing AGAINST mislynches, because mislynches are BAD.  Faust is arguing that mislynches are PREFERRED to scum lynches.

[Teproc]

Come on ash, you know this is not what faust is saying.

[Eevee]

I think faust's point is that if player A is the town cop 40% of the time and  a mafia goon 60% of the time and player B is a VT 50% of the time and a mafia goon 50% of the time, B is the better lynch even though A is more likely to be scum.

 Assuming that's what he is saying, I and I think most others as well, agree with him.

[mail-mi]

I think faust's point is that if player A is the town cop 40% of the time and  a mafia goon 60% of the time and player B is a VT 50% of the time and a mafia goon 50% of the time, B is the better lynch even though A is more likely to be scum.

 Assuming that's what he is saying, I and I think most others as well, agree with him.

that's what I get from faust. If that's the basis of the case, I disagree.

[mail-mi]

I think faust's point is that if player A is the town cop 40% of the time and  a mafia goon 60% of the time and player B is a VT 50% of the time and a mafia goon 50% of the time, B is the better lynch even though A is more likely to be scum.

 Assuming that's what he is saying, I and I think most others as well, agree with him.

that's what I get from faust. If that's the basis of the case, I disagree.

and by that I mean I disagree with the case.

[yuma]

Actually town doesn't care, or shouldn't care, about the post count. You should be active, but the post count is not that great at measuring activity. Like, Voltaire has not been twice as active as anyone else in the game for example (he's been active obviously, but not that much more than other people).

I don't get how yuma could have thought that whole post was a joke to be honest, it was pretty clear to me that it only referred to the hat thing.

Exactly... so why does 2.7 care his post count was low and why did he especially start posting once I specifically called him out for being low?

I thought the whole post was a joke, but see that I may have misread it... as 2.7 was quoting Robz I thought he was sarcastically calling out robz for saying that there wasn't anything to talk about by saying that there was "I mean there was the whole claim thing" "then the chairs thing" and was basically saying "hey Robz, there actually is lots to talk about" but like I said I think I misread that... but that doesn't negate my point that I feel that 2.7 was 1. posted low 2. was called out for low posting 3. started posting more as a result 4. was called out for posting more after being called out 5. went back and tried to find a way to justify what he did and show that it wasn't being called out that caused him to post more. The fact that I misunderstood the joke doesn't negate that this whole thing feels off and is scummy.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.6

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (1): Robz888
Not Voting (2):Liopoil, Eevee

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[yuma]

ash before I am going to take your tunnel on faust seriously I am going to need you to prove to me why he is a better lynch than all of the other options you are ignoring. I don't doubt that you think he is scum (or are pretending to really think he is scum) but it appears that you aren't giving due process to everything about everyone else. As long as you ignore everyone else and just shout "LYNCH FAUST" I am probably not going to be joining it because it looks like you aren't looking anywhere else and therefore have clouded judgement.... again I am not saying that your case is necessarily bad or wrong, but if you only look in one place how can you be so sure?

[Teproc]

I agree that his sudden surge of activity after the post count is scummy. What do you think of his insistence on his faust case when it's not as strong a case as he makes it appear ?

[yuma]

I agree that his sudden surge of activity after the post count is scummy. What do you think of his insistence on his faust case when it's not as strong a case as he makes it appear ?

I need to look over it more. Like I said I kinda glossed over it when I was catching up and just had 2.7 and faust give me a brief synopsis, but need to look over the specifics more.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.6

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (1): Robz888
Not Voting (2):Liopoil, Eevee

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

Eevee is voting for liopoil :

Anyways, faust/Teproc have also been involved in a way I can remember, and Lekkit gets a pass for attempting a case on Voltaire, leaving me to a Vote: liopoil Robz's observations about his play being similar to Toy Story are a nice addition to my own PoE.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.7

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (2): ashersky, 2.71828
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (2): Robz888, Eevee
Not Voting (1):Liopoil

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.


Thank you Teproc!

[ashersky]

ash before I am going to take your tunnel on faust seriously I am going to need you to prove to me why he is a better lynch than all of the other options you are ignoring. I don't doubt that you think he is scum (or are pretending to really think he is scum) but it appears that you aren't giving due process to everything about everyone else. As long as you ignore everyone else and just shout "LYNCH FAUST" I am probably not going to be joining it because it looks like you aren't looking anywhere else and therefore have clouded judgement.... again I am not saying that your case is necessarily bad or wrong, but if you only look in one place how can you be so sure?

I have yet to see a truly compelling case (in this sentence, compelling = better than my opinion on faust) on anyone else.

I've already listed my prior scum read on chairs, but no one, and I mean no one, seems to want to join me on that.  And anyway, chairs comes below faust on the scumometer.

I don't understand the Voltaire votes.  At all.  Like, when do we ever lynch Voltaire D1?  He doesn't out himself this early if he's scum, he's easy to POE later.  He'll slip up at some point because he talks just as much as I do.

I get the lio votes, I suppose.  But LALL isn't a thing anymore, and lio lurking on D1 is not actually a scumtell.  It's a liotell.  He lurks as town as much as scum.  If anything, I'd say it is more likely lio is a VT and less interested in the game on D1 than anything else.

The mail-mi votes are just classic mail-mi votes.  We need to stop with the classic mail-mi votes.

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

Other than that, I guess we're all good.

Popsquiz:

Absolutely won't vote for on D1: ashersky, Lekkit, Voltaire, yuma
Prefer not to lynch: Robz, liopoil, mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin
Would not shed a tear over the death of: Eevee, Teproc, 2.7
Is most likely scum: chairs
Is absolutely scum that should have been lynched already but deserves the MVP for this game for surviving this long: faust

[chairs]

Absolutely won't vote for on D1: ashersky, Lekkit, Voltaire, yuma

You won't vote for yourself? SCUM! 

[Teproc]

Just so we're clear ash, you believe faust is scum because he said he was ok with a VT mislynch ?

That's stupid. Like, irredeemably so. So stupid I'm starting to think it's some kind of weird play (not necessarily a scum play mind you). What he said was that he preferred lynching you, a scummy (in his eyes at least) player who would be a VT if town, than chairs, a scummy player who would be a PR if town, even if chairs was slightly more likely to be scum. That's not scummy, that's being risk-averse.

[ashersky]

Just so we're clear ash, you believe faust is scum because he said he was ok with a VT mislynch ?

That's stupid. Like, irredeemably so. So stupid I'm starting to think it's some kind of weird play (not necessarily a scum play mind you). What he said was that he preferred lynching you, a scummy (in his eyes at least) player who would be a VT if town, than chairs, a scummy player who would be a PR if town, even if chairs was slightly more likely to be scum. That's not scummy, that's being risk-averse.

And why would he, or you for that matter, "know" I'm more likely to be a VT?

I saw faust's theory that I was willing to flavor claim because I'm either scum or a VT, but I see no basis for that theory.

You are misreading my case, possibly on purpose.  I am not saying that faust preferring my lynch over chairs's lynch is scummy.  The players involved have nothing to do with it.  It has to do with the words he used, the things he said.  He said he was trying to get a mislynch.  Like it was a foregone conclusion.  But it doesn't have to be a foregone conclusion, unless you are scum.

It's one thing to be okay with a mislynch happening in the end, as it is mathematically more likely anyway.  But planning for a mislynch, especially that early in the day (and it was REALLY early), is crazy.  Do you need to take into account "%likelihood of being a PR" into your "am I willing to risk this lynch being a mislynch" calculations?  ABSOLUTELY.  And I think that's Eevee's point.

But the fact that faust wanted to make that calculation so early in the day, when we had plenty of time to actually scumhunt as best we could and find the a likely scum lynch, is terrible.  It is scum getting ahead of itself in getting the opening mislynch.  This wasn't 6 hours to deadline and two viable wagons, so let's be sure to join the one that is less likely to be a PR if it's wrong time.  This was the very beginning of the day (and game!) and already planning and assuming a mislynch, and trying to gain towncred by making sure it falls on the more likely VT.

[yuma]

Looking at faust vs 2.7/ashersky

So this appears to be the post that started it all. It is his first post of the game and I'll quote it for full reference:

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

Followed immediately by a vote from ashersky:

This is all that ashersky says about it for a long, long time until pressed.... he just keeps kinda repeating over and over that faust is certainly scum... and I just don't see it ash, I don't. It is like you are seeing something that I am not. I am not saying I agree with his logic, but given what faust knew if he is town I don't think it is a horrible thing to surmise... And is easily something I could see town doing and coming to that conclusion.

Once this argument picks up steam again....

The newest piece of info we get is ash saying faust is scrambing but this comes with zero evidence.

And then we start getting into it a bit more... why did it take so long to flesh out this argument ash? And I still don't really see anything super, super significant here. Like I kinda get what ash is saying... town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to lynch town. But I don't think scum is ever that blatant about it or that easily caught.

Really I think the case on faust is being overly exaggerated by ashersky, regardless of faust's alignment. To what purpose I am not sure. If ash is town... over confidence? a ploy? if ash is scum.... well crazy ash is town ash so meta manipulation? or if ash is scum with faust epic bussing on the most minute point ever? Wouldn't put it past him, but right now I think this is likely town!ash overselling a case on town!faust would be my gut read of the situation....



Now onto 2.7/faust:

2.7 said this about the conversation:

I find Faust scummy because:
  1) He made a joke to create a D1 pass for himself
  2) He was looking for "good" mislynches in Ashersky and Voltaire.  He expressed concerns about both of them, not because he had come up with great scum narratives for them, but because they are mislynches that wouldn't hurt town as much

faust said this:

There was some ambiguity as to whether non-PRs had names, and I believe ashersky's flavor-claiming despite that ambiguity means he is not a PR (=either VT or scum). So I voted for ashersky, which e apparently finds scummy (note that he also flavor-claimed early). I find e's reaction since a little over the top and don't understand why he thinks ash is town. I am trying to convince him I'm town, but that seems to be futile endeavour.

Seems like the conversation started here with 2.7 voting for faust. Says the reasons are 1. a joke and 2. jumps on ash and says he is a good mislynch (oversimplification of what he said, by the way)... basically sheeping ashersky and 3. wants to policy vote voltaire. 1 and 3 are bunk... 2. has some points, but just isn't as significant as I think 2.7 and ash are making it out to be.

and the conversation I feel never really evolves to any new points from this juncture... just arguing. At the end of it I feel 2.7 comes off scummier for it mostly because I just don't see why faust is soooo scummy, but the whole conversation reads kinda null and I am only writing about it because teproc specifically asked me to. My vote on 2.7 remains mostly based off his reaction to the low post count. I don't necessarily have a town read on faust, I don't. He would probably be in my lynch pool at this point (although I am kinda adverse to lynching him again on a day1... that would make it three in a row and that just isn't very nice, but I would lynch him if I thought there was something truly significant).

[yuma]

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

also this is kinda... blackmaily?..... and I don't really like it regardless of ash's alignment. In my eyes it basically says "2.7 better keep his vote on faust or else I will turn around and vote for him! So he better not move it!"

It puts 2.7 in a really bad position in regard to ash I think.

[ashersky]

Looking at faust vs 2.7/ashersky

So this appears to be the post that started it all. It is his first post of the game and I'll quote it for full reference:

But seriously: Ashersky flavor-claimed before we knew whether VTs had flavor names. This probably means one of two things:
1) ash himself is a VT, so he already knew. In that case, he's an okay mislynch.
2) ash is scum and had a fake claim provided. In that case, lynch him!

Followed immediately by a vote from ashersky:

This is all that ashersky says about it for a long, long time until pressed.... he just keeps kinda repeating over and over that faust is certainly scum... and I just don't see it ash, I don't. It is like you are seeing something that I am not. I am not saying I agree with his logic, but given what faust knew if he is town I don't think it is a horrible thing to surmise... And is easily something I could see town doing and coming to that conclusion.

Once this argument picks up steam again....

The newest piece of info we get is ash saying faust is scrambing but this comes with zero evidence.

And then we start getting into it a bit more... why did it take so long to flesh out this argument ash? And I still don't really see anything super, super significant here. Like I kinda get what ash is saying... town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to lynch town. But I don't think scum is ever that blatant about it or that easily caught.

Really I think the case on faust is being overly exaggerated by ashersky, regardless of faust's alignment. To what purpose I am not sure. If ash is town... over confidence? a ploy? if ash is scum.... well crazy ash is town ash so meta manipulation? or if ash is scum with faust epic bussing on the most minute point ever? Wouldn't put it past him, but right now I think this is likely town!ash overselling a case on town!faust would be my gut read of the situation....

You are correct that the quote you pulled from faust is the one that started it all.

Here are things I see happening in that post:

--he is rolefishing.  Talking about VTs and claims and "here's what ash probably is" is all rolefishing.  That's scummy.
--in is point #1, he says "...he's an okay mislynch."  That wording is specifically what tipped me off.  That, expanded, is "He is an okay mislynch."  But why, I ask, is decided on the okay mislynch of the day a town thing to do, especially so early in the game?
--he ignores the "ash is a PR and knew it was safe to claim" possibility, which is clearly a possibility, but he ignores it.
--he gives zero reasons for why lynching ashersky could be bad for town.  He even states that "[if] ash himself is a VT...he's an okay mislynch."

As far as why I fleshed out the argument, I only did because people kept hounding me.  That's the only reason.  As for "I don't think scum is ever that blantant...or that easily caught" goes, you are wrong.  See any game I'm scum for examples.

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

[ashersky]

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

also this is kinda... blackmaily?..... and I don't really like it regardless of ash's alignment. In my eyes it basically says "2.7 better keep his vote on faust or else I will turn around and vote for him! So he better not move it!"

It puts 2.7 in a really bad position in regard to ash I think.

Sure it is.  But basically, he's all I've got as far as support goes.

At this point, I believe the end game for D1 is lynch faust or lynch me.  And lynching me definitely hurts the town, regardless of scum!faust's argument that we should try to mislynch town on D1.

[ashersky]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

[yuma]

As for "I don't think scum is ever that blantant...or that easily caught" goes, you are wrong.  See any game I'm scum for examples.

That doesn't work. You are you and faust is faust. We aren't talking about the possibility of you being scum, we are talking about the possibilities of faust being scum. And even if we were talking about you it doesn't work... Ash you have never, ever, ever been so blatant as scum to come out and say "Heyz Guyz I'd sure like lots to mislynch somebody toooday, lez just give up on hunting dem scums. Whatcha guyz thinks of that?" which to me is what you are saying faust did. I refuse to believe that scum can just be magically caught that easily. You would be morbidly offended if you thought we could catch you that easily as scum yes?

Aha! This is basically what I don't like about it, I figured it out... You think it is a scumslip... you haven't called it a scumslip, but it is yes? You think faust slipped and showed his colors by saying that you were an ok mislynch?

Well.... let's just be honest here. If you are a VT, you are an ok mislynch as far as mislynches go. Mislynches aren't ever ideal for town, I agree and we shouldn't be gunning for them, but I don't think faust is gunning for one. I think he is saying ash has a good chance of flipping scum, but if he doesn't he will probably flip VT... and I think that is an OK thing to say. I don't know if I agree with his logic, and it isn't exaclty my favorite way to approach scumhunting, but it isn't this surefire case that you are making it out to be.

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched, so I do feel the need to go back, look at the situation and try and figure out if what you are saying has merit and I think it doesn't. I don't think that is defending and I don't know why you feel the need to accuse anyone that thinks differently than you do to be "defending" someone you obviously think is scum

[yuma]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

Am I voting for you? Have I said I found you super scummy?

And why in the world would your dead body help us understand faust any better? I don't get your logic at all ash.

[ashersky]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

Am I voting for you? Have I said I found you super scummy?

And why in the world would your dead body help us understand faust any better? I don't get your logic at all ash.

When you have mod confirmation I'm town, it lets you know that what I'm saying is honest and, to me, absolutely in town's best interest.

[yuma]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

Am I voting for you? Have I said I found you super scummy?

And why in the world would your dead body help us understand faust any better? I don't get your logic at all ash.

When you have mod confirmation I'm town, it lets you know that what I'm saying is honest and, to me, absolutely in town's best interest.

Sure. but that doesn't mean you are right. Far from it. This is day1. Somewhere recently you said your reads get so much better as the days go on. Everyone has bad reads day1,  you aren't an exception my friend, nor am I. So if you die, nothing changes--well not nothing, but certainly nothing significant changes--in my read toward faust. It just doesn't. Allowing it to change so willy-nilly would be extremely irresponsible.

As an example... in Toy Story at the end of day1 you were pretty convinced (maybe not as convinced as you are here, but pretty sure, sure enough to make definitive statements yes?) I was scum and then you died night1. It was mod confirmed you were town. Had town listened to you and your read and just based off that read they would have lynched me, mislynched me. Because I was town and your read was bad. This isn't a criticism, it is a fact. Your read on me was bad. Mine were really bad last game too... So again, your read on faust, even if/when you die will do very little to change my read on faust.... because there would be no proof that your read this game is/was accurate.

And the whole reason I am saying this is to say that I don't think the end result of today needs to be your lynch or faust's lynch. There are other paths to take that I think are better.

[ashersky]

Hopefully, once you lynch me, and you see the dead body of Zhang Fei, the man feared by everyone because of his might, you'll come around to believing me.

Am I voting for you? Have I said I found you super scummy?

And why in the world would your dead body help us understand faust any better? I don't get your logic at all ash.

When you have mod confirmation I'm town, it lets you know that what I'm saying is honest and, to me, absolutely in town's best interest.

Sure. but that doesn't mean you are right. Far from it. This is day1. Somewhere recently you said your reads get so much better as the days go on. Everyone has bad reads day1,  you aren't an exception my friend, nor am I. So if you die, nothing changes--well not nothing, but certainly nothing significant changes--in my read toward faust. It just doesn't. Allowing it to change so willy-nilly would be extremely irresponsible.

As an example... in Toy Story at the end of day1 you were pretty convinced (maybe not as convinced as you are here, but pretty sure, sure enough to make definitive statements yes?) I was scum and then you died night1. It was mod confirmed you were town. Had town listened to you and your read and just based off that read they would have lynched me, mislynched me. Because I was town and your read was bad. This isn't a criticism, it is a fact. Your read on me was bad. Mine were really bad last game too... So again, your read on faust, even if/when you die will do very little to change my read on faust.... because there would be no proof that your read this game is/was accurate.

And the whole reason I am saying this is to say that I don't think the end result of today needs to be your lynch or faust's lynch. There are other paths to take that I think are better.

Fair and reasoned statements, all of which support my "not lynching yuma' stance.  Doesn't change my read on faust, though.

If we're not lynching faust, and we aren't lynching me (which at least faust wants, since he prefers to lynch town than scum), who are we lynching?

I've given my thoughts on each of the cases presented so far.  I'm not convinced on any, just as you aren't convinced on mine.  So what do we do?

[ashersky]

We're looking for one of the following, right?

2-man mafia team
2-man mafia team + 1 SK
3-man mafia team
3-man mafia team + 1 SK

So we're searching for 2, 3, or 4 scum out of 13 total players.

The chance of any one player being scum, without a post being made, is 2/12, 3/12, or 4/12, from my perspective as town.  That means 17%, 25%, or 33%, basically.

25% is the middle, there, and a fair assessment, since the chances are 2, 3, 3, and 4.

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

[yuma]

Fair and reasoned statements, all of which support my "not lynching yuma' stance.  Doesn't change my read on faust, though.

If we're not lynching faust, and we aren't lynching me (which at least faust wants, since he prefers to lynch town than scum), who are we lynching?

I've given my thoughts on each of the cases presented so far.  I'm not convinced on any, just as you aren't convinced on mine.  So what do we do?

Keep working toward a lynch? We still have a fair amount of time.... 2ish days?

I for one still need to fully catch up, and figure out a handful of players that I don't know much about

[2.71828.....]

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched

I just want to point something out here. Yuma, I know you were v/la for a majority of D1 so you might not have felt this as much. But this game was dead. Like no real activity until I picked up on Faust and started bugging people for their opinions. Now, I know I am no IC that has the authority to really do that, but we had to start somewhere. I am in no way hijacking the game. I just really want people to post. Something. Anything. Might as well be about what I saw as my top scum read. You can disagree with me. You can argue with me. You can call me scum for pushing you for information. You can even put out cases against alternative scum. Just do something. And you have. I am happy with your contributions. And teproc has. And a couple other people. But what about the say, 8 null reads that you have because they aren't posting? I have null reads on the following people due to lack of content: eevee, mail-mi, lekkit (actually scummy on him because of his Voltaire case but he fits with the non-posters), [/b]Ichimaru, chairs, robz, liopoil[/b]. Some of them have weighed in a bit on the Faust case basically to say they don't like it, but have done nothing else. At all. I can't do this right now because I am on a kindle, but go back to your post count and figure out who has the lowest post count between that time and now and vote them. I am not trying to hijack anything, but there is nothing to hijack. NOTHING AT ALL. No content. Everyone is lurking. Sure flavor talk may have put a bad taste in your mouth. Get over it. And post.

So come on. Build a case against me for posting. Lynch me for posting. I will be happy to die D1 if that means we can even get one wagon started. The way the day is going, I doubt that though.  Our build a case against someone else. I don't care. I am all for lynching a little right now. We can get scum!Faust anytime.

[2.71828.....]

Rent done. Sorry I messed up the bold there a bit.

[2.71828.....]

Rant done. Sorry I messed up the bold there a bit.

ugh auto correct

[2.71828.....]

And more typos that I am noticing now in the rant. Sorry about that, but you get my point

[yuma]

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched

I just want to point something out here. Yuma, I know you were v/la for a majority of D1 so you might not have felt this as much. But this game was dead. Like no real activity until I picked up on Faust and started bugging people for their opinions. Now, I know I am no IC that has the authority to really do that, but we had to start somewhere. I am in no way hijacking the game. I just really want people to post.

I never said you hijacked the thread. I said ashersky did.

[2.71828.....]

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched

I just want to point something out here. Yuma, I know you were v/la for a majority of D1 so you might not have felt this as much. But this game was dead. Like no real activity until I picked up on Faust and started bugging people for their opinions. Now, I know I am no IC that has the authority to really do that, but we had to start somewhere. I am in no way hijacking the game. I just really want people to post.

I never said you hijacked the thread. I said ashersky did.

well he commented extra because I pushed him to. So he hijacked it through me

[2.71828.....]

Guys, let's lynch Faust, then find other scum D2 based on his wagon, interactions, and whatever happens N1.

somehow I don't think that will happen.....no one seems to be picking up our little wagon.  Pretty anti-town of them if you ask me.  Yuma was complaining about no wagons, we could have had one right here but instead they try to build one on liopoil?

he didn't really start posting until after right here. What, 7 hours ago. A real hijack

[yuma]

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched

I just want to point something out here. Yuma, I know you were v/la for a majority of D1 so you might not have felt this as much. But this game was dead. Like no real activity until I picked up on Faust and started bugging people for their opinions. Now, I know I am no IC that has the authority to really do that, but we had to start somewhere. I am in no way hijacking the game. I just really want people to post.

I never said you hijacked the thread. I said ashersky did.

well he commented extra because I pushed him to. So he hijacked it through me

okay.... so what are you saying? I am not accusing ash of anything for hijacking the thread... when I said that I was responding to him asking why I was "defending" faust.

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

I don't have a reason to defend faust per se... but you are throwing a fit asking every single person to vote for him and basically hijacking the game and refusing to let us do anything else until he is lynched, so I do feel the need to go back, look at the situation and try and figure out if what you are saying has merit and I think it doesn't. I don't think that is defending and I don't know why you feel the need to accuse anyone that thinks differently than you do to be "defending" someone you obviously think is scum

Why is this significant to you?

[2.71828.....]

Could you reword the question? Are you asking why I think it is important to note that you are "defending" Faust? I am not quite sure what you are asking

[yuma]

Let me try again... why are you talking about this hijacking thing...? why is it significant for you to talk about it?

It doesn't really involve you, as it was directed toward ashersky. And it wasn't really an accusation at ashersky as it was me explaining why I was talking about faust--as he perceived I was defending him. So why is it important to you?

[ashersky]

Don't know the last time we had one of these:

Voltaire - 92
2.7 - 71
Ashersky - 70
Teproc - 63
Yuma - 47
Robz888 - 45
Faust - 39
mail-mi - 33
Chairs - 33
Eevee - 25
Lekkit - 24
Ichimaru Gin - 22
Liopoil - 17

[2.71828.....]

Let me try again... why are you talking about this hijacking thing...? why is it significant for you to talk about it?

It doesn't really involve you, as it was directed toward ashersky. And it wasn't really an accusation at ashersky as it was me explaining why I was talking about faust--as he perceived I was defending him. So why is it important to you?

the hijacking language is what got me. Even while you were sick, while you had no home internet, and all that you posted more than most people in this game.  I really really REALLY don't like lurkers/people who quit playing. It detracts from the game and enjoyment of everyone.  And I also felt you were unjustly accusing ashersky for something he is not doing. He is actually posting.  The thing is, the more you talk about why Faust is not scum without any sort of case against anyone else (I guess you have me) what does ash have to talk about? Say you come out with a case against insomniac. (Used as a place holder and because everyone else is sleeping through this game) insomniac has said this, that, and the other and you find him super scummy.  You state why you think that person is scummier, you garner some support, and get people talking. Awesome. That hasn't happened. Because there is no other case with anyone being scummier.

but basically I thought the hijacking language was unfair sure to the low activity from anyone else. You can't hijack something no one else owns

[2.71828.....]

The last one:

this does include pre-game posts

1. Voltaire - 83
2. Robz888 - 33
3. mail-mi - 24
4. Chairs - 29
5. Ashersky - 46
6. Yuma - 23
7. Ichimaru Gin - 17
8. Lekkit - 18
9. Liopoil - 11
10. Teproc - 47
11. 2.7 - 21
12. Eevee - 18
13. Faust - 21

[2.71828.....]

Sub-10 posters over the last two days:
Voltaire
Robz
Mail-mi
Chairs
Ichimaru
Lekkit
Liopoil
Eevee

I will lynch from these players unless something crazy happens.

So unvote

[2.71828.....]

Oops, robz had 12 posts. My bad

Sub-10 posters over the last two days:
Voltaire
Robz
Mail-mi
Chairs
Ichimaru
Lekkit
Liopoil
Eevee

I will lynch from these players unless something crazy happens.

So unvote

[2.71828.....]

Right now I will vote: lekkit.

He is a very, right? I just haven't played with him. His case on Voltaire was totally baseless. I asked him about the holes I saw, he responded with some quotes, but no original language. 

So
1) putting out a pretty poor case against someone but making it look super fancy with all the quotes.
2) not defending it when questioned.
3) lurking

[2.71828.....]

I meant to say, he is a vet. Not a very.

[yuma]

Let me try again... why are you talking about this hijacking thing...? why is it significant for you to talk about it?

It doesn't really involve you, as it was directed toward ashersky. And it wasn't really an accusation at ashersky as it was me explaining why I was talking about faust--as he perceived I was defending him. So why is it important to you?

the hijacking language is what got me. Even while you were sick, while you had no home internet, and all that you posted more than most people in this game.  I really really REALLY don't like lurkers/people who quit playing. It detracts from the game and enjoyment of everyone.  And I also felt you were unjustly accusing ashersky for something he is not doing. He is actually posting.  The thing is, the more you talk about why Faust is not scum without any sort of case against anyone else (I guess you have me) what does ash have to talk about? Say you come out with a case against insomniac. (Used as a place holder and because everyone else is sleeping through this game) insomniac has said this, that, and the other and you find him super scummy.  You state why you think that person is scummier, you garner some support, and get people talking. Awesome. That hasn't happened. Because there is no other case with anyone being scummier.

but basically I thought the hijacking language was unfair sure to the low activity from anyone else. You can't hijack something no one else owns

Ok.

First some points...

Everyone can play the amount they want to play. I am with you, I want others to post more. But the rules of the game are to post once every 24 hours. Few players, if any are actually breaking this rule. If they are ask for them to be prodded. Quitting playing is always bad, but no one appears to have quit. Some people just post less than you and me. And that is ok. They might get lynched more often because of it, but hey... that is the game.... Just like a person in RL mafia who is quiet is also likely to get lynched... I am thrilled you are posting a lot and have been a great addition to the forum games community but not everyone can post as much as you and me. It took me a while to get to this point of accepting people who post less, but you have to.

As for the hijacking part. He did... maybe we have a different interpretation of hijacking, but ash repeatedly over and over again, any time he had anything to say at all it was something along the lines of "instead of doing X, let's lynch faust."

here, here, here, here, here, here, here

that is a lot, especially as I was rereading the faust case and ash specifically... these posts just keep kinda saying the same things over and over...

and again, keep in mind that the term "hijack" was used in response to this from ash:

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

where he asks why I am defending faust so heavily... And the answer is... I am responding to the huge number of posts that you are making about faust (the hijack), why are you surprised that I am writing a huge post about him... you have been talking non-stop about him.

So maybe you see me saying ash hijacking the thread is terribly bad and anti-town. No, I don't really think it is all that bad, so maybe I should have used a less harsh sounding word, but when I get criticized for giving opinion on something that ash obviously wants people to talk about I am going to get a little harsh....

And I still don't know why we are having this conversation in the first place. What do you want from me out of it?

[chairs]

vote: liopoil.  I like Robz's case on him.

[yuma]

Right now I will vote: lekkit.

He is a very, right? I just haven't played with him. His case on Voltaire was totally baseless. I asked him about the holes I saw, he responded with some quotes, but no original language. 

So
1) putting out a pretty poor case against someone but making it look super fancy with all the quotes.
2) not defending it when questioned.
3) lurking

ash you can vote for 2.7 now...

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

also this is kinda... blackmaily?..... and I don't really like it regardless of ash's alignment. In my eyes it basically says "2.7 better keep his vote on faust or else I will turn around and vote for him! So he better not move it!"

It puts 2.7 in a really bad position in regard to ash I think.

Sure it is.  But basically, he's all I've got as far as support goes.

[2.71828.....]

[Stuff]

With all that said, I think Voltaire has done some things that are not really pro-town. But that does not always make you scummy. However expressing reads with so much determination as he has, backing away in the next post, and then going back to the super strong scum reads doesn't sound good in my ears. So far I think Voltaire is the scummiest around, and I will give him my vote.

Vote: Voltaire

while I agree that Voltaire had done some anti towny things, he has not flip flopped as lekkit implied. What made it seem worse was the way lekkit quoted some stuff, then went back out of order chronologically to show "inconsistencies" that Voltaire displayed. Then when I questioned him about it, he just replied writing the same things again, but not going down on record himself. Hiding behind quotes. Scummy.

[2.71828.....]

Right now I will vote: lekkit.

He is a very, right? I just haven't played with him. His case on Voltaire was totally baseless. I asked him about the holes I saw, he responded with some quotes, but no original language. 

So
1) putting out a pretty poor case against someone but making it look super fancy with all the quotes.
2) not defending it when questioned.
3) lurking

ash you can vote for 2.7 now...

So that leaves the 2.7 case.  I could probably find merit in it, if 2.7 wasn't the only sane person (i.e., voting with me) in the game up to this point.  If he finds a "reason" to switch his vote, and that "reason" sucks, 2.7 rises to #2 or #3 on the scumometer, I think.

also this is kinda... blackmaily?..... and I don't really like it regardless of ash's alignment. In my eyes it basically says "2.7 better keep his vote on faust or else I will turn around and vote for him! So he better not move it!"

It puts 2.7 in a really bad position in regard to ash I think.

Sure it is.  But basically, he's all I've got as far as support goes.

yeah, when I read that I was not happy with the position ash put me in, but at some point my vote was probably going to come off Faust. I have been brewing about lekkit for a while now. Right now seemed like a good enough time to really voice my concerns

[2.71828.....]

1) you are right, no one is being the rules. No one has to be prodded.
2) in all my posting and agreeing with ash (although not with his methods, he had been posting strangely) I had not noticed all those occurrences of "hijacking" that you pointed out.  I agree. That is a little excessive and curious as to just how frequently he kept it up.
3) I was mostly venting about the lack of content today. Hijack was basically just a buzz-word that set me off. So I apologize if it seemed like it was directed at me. Our even at other players. It is just frustrating to not even have a single wagon at all.
4) I am done talking about this if you are. If you have any more concerns feel free to bring them up. I am not trying to avoid it, but would like to move on past my little rant to something more productive.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.7

你 好！

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (1): ashersky
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, chairs
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (2): Robz888, Eevee, chairs
lekkit(1): 2.7...

Not Voting (1):Liopoil

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.8

又 你 好！

2.7 (2): Teproc, yuma
ashersky (1): Faust
Faust (1): ashersky
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (3): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit
liopoil (3): Robz888, Eevee， chairs
lekkit(1): 2.7...

Not Voting (1):Liopoil

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[2.71828.....]

I still don't see why anyone is voting Voltaire. I can understand most of the other votes. I mean, who doesn't want to sheep robz? I am just surprised everyone else hasn't joined in the sheeping.

[2.71828.....]

I still don't see why anyone is voting Voltaire. I can understand most of the other votes. I mean, who doesn't want to sheep robz? I am just surprised everyone else hasn't joined in the sheeping.

and the other votes all have something to them. Although I forget the mall-mi thing

[ashersky]

The Lekkit vote is terrible.  Lekkit has never been a huge poster, but he has posted thoughtfully when he can.  I see no issues with Lekkit.

2.7's reason for unvoting was just frustration, I'm pretty sure, and he'll be back on scum!faust soon.

Plus, I can't vote him now, given yuma's called it blackmaily.

[Lekkit]

[Stuff]

With all that said, I think Voltaire has done some things that are not really pro-town. But that does not always make you scummy. However expressing reads with so much determination as he has, backing away in the next post, and then going back to the super strong scum reads doesn't sound good in my ears. So far I think Voltaire is the scummiest around, and I will give him my vote.

Vote: Voltaire

while I agree that Voltaire had done some anti towny things, he has not flip flopped as lekkit implied. What made it seem worse was the way lekkit quoted some stuff, then went back out of order chronologically to show "inconsistencies" that Voltaire displayed. Then when I questioned him about it, he just replied writing the same things again, but not going down on record himself. Hiding behind quotes. Scummy.

First of all, I did not imply that he has flip flopped. I said he had. Because I think he did. Secondly there was one quote in that post that was out of order. Twice you've made it sound like it the entire post was just a mish mash of quotes in random order. It is not. There are however two points I wanted to make, so that's why there is a jump back after a while. If I had been rereading two people, I would probably have put all the quotes from one person together and the other person's quote together. It's easier to follow one thing at ta time than two. And thirdly, what did you want me to say? I think it's pretty obvious that we interpret the stuff Voltaire said differently. I gave you the quotes where I think he flip flopped, you said you didn't read it that way.

Right now I will vote: lekkit.

He is a very, right? I just haven't played with him. His case on Voltaire was totally baseless. I asked him about the holes I saw, he responded with some quotes, but no original language. 

So
1) putting out a pretty poor case against someone but making it look super fancy with all the quotes.
2) not defending it when questioned.
3) lurking

I agree with ashersky here, that vote is pretty terrible. The "holes you saw" was actually one hole, or you didn't mention the rest. And that was basically you not interpreting his posts the same way I do.

So
1) Trying to get the game going by going back and reread. Finding what I see as inconsistencies and getting them out there so that people can see them.
2) Not really being questioned about it.
3) Yeah, I haven't been super active. However, I'm not usually the player that posts fifteen posts in a row because nobody else is doing it. And I'm pretty sure there are some people here that can actually vouche for that. One of the reasons why I stopped playing here before was actually due to people only counting posts and not really contents of the posts. But in this case I'm not really saying you're entirely wrong. I'm just saying that I will probably never be the one to posts a lot of small posts.

[faust]

Wow, zuma is defending me - it's a whole new feeling.

Anyway, ashersky lynch is not going to happen, right? So let me vote: liopoil. Not because I think the case is particularly strong (I don't see a really convincing case right now), but because he is lurking and because I have a town read on Robz, who started this wagon.

[2.71828.....]

ok.  deep breath. 

unvote

Lekkit, thanks for your very well reasoned response to my weak case against you.  I am very guilty of not recognizing other people's posting habits and realizing that not everyone is a recent college grad with basically nothing on his schedule and thus has an inordinate amount of time to spend on mafia.  Lekkit has not posted much, but it is true that when he has posted he actually put down reads (when hardly anyone else was) and even though I disagreed with you, it is common for town to disagree with town. (especially early)  Now he has come back with a good response and there is no reason to vote Lekkit.

[faust]

Wow, zuma is defending me - it's a whole new feeling.

Anyway, ashersky lynch is not going to happen, right? So let me vote: liopoil. Not because I think the case is particularly strong (I don't see a really convincing case right now), but because he is lurking and because I have a town read on Robz, who started this wagon.

zuma=yuma, of course.

[faust]

Well, it's nice that ashersky finally gives me a post I can respond to.

You are correct that the quote you pulled from faust is the one that started it all.

Here are things I see happening in that post:

--he is rolefishing.  Talking about VTs and claims and "here's what ash probably is" is all rolefishing.  That's scummy.
--in is point #1, he says "...he's an okay mislynch."  That wording is specifically what tipped me off.  That, expanded, is "He is an okay mislynch."  But why, I ask, is decided on the okay mislynch of the day a town thing to do, especially so early in the game?
--he ignores the "ash is a PR and knew it was safe to claim" possibility, which is clearly a possibility, but he ignores it.
--he gives zero reasons for why lynching ashersky could be bad for town.  He even states that "[if] ash himself is a VT...he's an okay mislynch."

As far as why I fleshed out the argument, I only did because people kept hounding me.  That's the only reason.  As for "I don't think scum is ever that blantant...or that easily caught" goes, you are wrong.  See any game I'm scum for examples.

What reason do you have, as town, to so heavily defend faust?  That's the question I have for you, and for anyone else pitching defensive walls up around him.  I don't see it.

Rolefishing: how is what I did rolefishing? Rolefishing is defined as trying to get town to out PRs, yes? Do you mean I tried to get you to claim? Because I'm not that naive. I know you're a good player and I can't just say "ash is VT" and you come out yelling "but I'm a PR!!!"

Mislynch: I say you are an okay mislynch in the case where you are town. I think everyone should always consider the scenario where their suspect actually is town (I see that you disagree, thinking I am 100% scum). I considered it, and concluded it was worth the risk. It's not that I actually BELIEVE you're a mislynch, but of course, the possibility is there.

Third point: I did not see that. If you were a PR, all you would have known is that PRs have names, so how could you possibly have known that claiming doesn't out PRs?

And, lastly: Now I need to give reasons why lynching someone I suspect could be bad for town? Okay, every single one of my cases will come with a disclaimer: "Of course, X could be town, possibly even a PR. In that case, lynching X would be bad." in the future. Like, did YOU give any reasons why lynching me could be bad for town?

I should make clear once again: I think the scum narrative for ash is stronger (town is talking about flavor claiming, ash has a fake claim and just thinks "hey, let's just go ahead and claim for town cred!") than the town narrative.

[Ichimaru Gin]

For now, I'm going to vote: Liopoil
Explanation to come soon (in a couple hours). I just think it doesn't make much sense to keep my vote on someone when it doesn't look like they're going to get lynched. We need a lynch today, so let's get one!

[liopoil]

well dang, sorry guys. It's exam week, but I still should have contributed more than I have been. catching up. Serious thank you for putting me at L-2, so I have a motive to contribute... because lynching town is bad. It really should not work that way, but it did.

e: I get being frustrated at lurkers. Once upon a time, I actually was near the top of the post count a few games in a row, and I was frustrated at lurkers too. But now that I've been there, I realize it's just something we have to deal with. Is it bad for town? yes. Should it happen? no. Will it inevitably happen every game? yes. We're playing a game on the internet, and while everyone made a commitment in signing up, they aren't really committed in the sense that nothing terrible happens to them if they lurk.

That said, it still is rude of me and others to put this game to the side and not contribute. I'm going to try to get back into this game now, something that I've done successfully a few times as both alignments.

[Teproc]

I believe this is L-1, so let's let liopoil some time to respond here.

PPE : Here he is !

[Teproc]

Actually it's L-2, never mind me.

[liopoil]

re: those voting for me...

The case on me is pretty simple. So is the defense. I think this quote sums it all up:

Vote: liopoil

Now that we can talk about Toy Story mafia, my scum partner liopoil did a good job in later days, but I think he really struggled to make early contributions as scum. He is struggling with that here, too. In fact his most recent contribution was only to point out that he doesn't have any contributions.

not quite, I said something about ashersky's meta after that I think. but I can't exactly argue that I've been contributing today, yes. However, I think I've been struggling to make early contributions in any game as of late. Just really don't have much of anything that I find worth of note.

pretty simple. I'm lurking, something I did as scum last game. And that I have done as town previously. I don't think it speaks to my alignment much.

Now, you could make the case that "aha! he's scum who's intentionally lurking because he thinks he can get away with it!"

I mean, that's fair, I don't know what to say to that. There's nothing I can do.

I just ask that everyone voting me reads this, and if they still think I'm the best lynch, oh well.

In the meantime, I'm going to catch up. I won't be able to do it all right now, I have an exam soon. But later today I will.

[Robz888]

Uh, I think the case against you, liopoil, is just a bit more sophisticated than that. It's not just that "you're lurking." Lots of people are lurking for various reasons. I've actually had very little time for this game, so.

The case against you is that, well you're low post count and not much content. AND I think this is something scum liopoil does on Day 1. I remember in Toy Story Mafia wishing you could have a little bit more meatier content on Day 1, worrying that you could and should be the obvious lynch on "lynch the lurker whose posts are most strained to be contributions" basis.

Later, I think you did really get into the game and do a great job. And I think as town, even when you are a lurker, it's not quite like this.

[Robz888]

I'm not very persuaded by ash's case on faust. What I'm trying to figure out is what ash's case says about ash. Is this something he does as town? I think it's more a town!ash thing to have like a super-confident, likely wrong read on Day 1. So maybe he's just trying to signal to us that he is indeed town. That's all I get from it. But I always see ash as town.

[Eevee]

Ash is clearly faking his certainty to send us some sort of a message. The problem with artificially creating reads to send a message is that.. well, he is not being genuine, and if he is scum, he has all the motivation in the world to manipulate us into thinking otherwise.

I agree he is exaggerating his certainty to send us a message, but sadly I don't think we can really read much into the message. To me it's a very loud and distracting null-tell (that could help determining the alignments of other players once we get some flips and wagons, people often react to ash very strongly until they realize what he is doing).

[liopoil]

Uh, I think the case against you, liopoil, is just a bit more sophisticated than that. It's not just that "you're lurking." Lots of people are lurking for various reasons. I've actually had very little time for this game, so.

The case against you is that, well you're low post count and not much content. AND I think this is something scum liopoil does on Day 1. I remember in Toy Story Mafia wishing you could have a little bit more meatier content on Day 1, worrying that you could and should be the obvious lynch on "lynch the lurker whose posts are most strained to be contributions" basis.

Later, I think you did really get into the game and do a great job. And I think as town, even when you are a lurker, it's not quite like this.

I realize this, hence:

I'm lurking, something I did as scum last game. And that I have done as town previously. I don't think it speaks to my alignment much.

The case is that I'm lurking, which is something that I did as scum last game.

I'd argue that there isn't much of a difference between scum!lio lurking and town!lio lurking.

[Robz888]

Fair enough.

[Voltaire]

I'm not very persuaded by ash's case on faust. What I'm trying to figure out is what ash's case says about ash. Is this something he does as town? I think it's more a town!ash thing to have like a super-confident, likely wrong read on Day 1. So maybe he's just trying to signal to us that he is indeed town. That's all I get from it. But I always see ash as town.

It strikes me as a town!ash thing for now. Enough that I no longer want to lynch him.

[Voltaire]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

[Voltaire]

I would happily vote/hammer lio if it comes down to that. I'd be happy with that lynch. I'd be happier with others, though.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.9

很有意思

2.7... (2): Teproc, yuma
faust (1): ashersky
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (2): mail-mi, Lekkit
liopoil (5): Robz888, Eevee，chairs, faust, Ichimaru Gin {L-2}

Not Voting (2):liopoil, 2.7....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[Robz888]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Okay I'll think about it!

[Eevee]

I reread mail-mi. I thought he started off scummier than he finished, still not quite a townread but I prefer liopoil.

[Robz888]

I reread mail-mi. I thought he started off scummier than he finished, still not quite a townread but I prefer liopoil.

I re-read him too. Yeah, he seemed scummier than I had remembered. I still don't know exactly how to identify scum!mail-mi though, it's just that he's always scum. His posts here are very short, devoid of content... I might accuse him of being too ready to lynch anyone. Don't like his ash or Voltaire votes. A fine lynch I guess.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And, only one Final to go. . .
I'm voting Liopoil because.
1. He has a very low post count.
2. The posts that he has made are relatively low on content
3. When attacked, he responded with

well dang, sorry guys. It's exam week, but I still should have contributed more than I have been. catching up. Serious thank you for putting me at L-2, so I have a motive to contribute... because lynching town is bad. It really should not work that way, but it did.

e: I get being frustrated at lurkers. Once upon a time, I actually was near the top of the post count a few games in a row, and I was frustrated at lurkers too. But now that I've been there, I realize it's just something we have to deal with. Is it bad for town? yes. Should it happen? no. Will it inevitably happen every game? yes. We're playing a game on the internet, and while everyone made a commitment in signing up, they aren't really committed in the sense that nothing terrible happens to them if they lurk.

That said, it still is rude of me and others to put this game to the side and not contribute. I'm going to try to get back into this game now, something that I've done successfully a few times as both alignments.

I do understand the pressures of exams. I just got out of one ten minutes ago. However, I feel that this is still a poor reason for lurking. I mean, I know how much time I waste doing other things all the time--even during Final's week. You can almost always find a couple minutes to check in and post something that really adds to the game. Generally, I found this response pretty scummy in that it's excuses didn't really add up.
And when it comes down to it, like I said, we need a lynch. Even a lurker lynch is usually better than no lynch. So let's see this finished before the deadline.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also. You really need to be at L-2 in order to contribute?
That just sounds bad.

[liopoil]

right, I don't really have an excuse. my comment about exam week was immediately followed by essentially saying that it doesn't make my lurking excusable. and again, of course I shouldn't need to be at L-2, and I'm sure I would have caught up sooner or later regardless of people voting for me. being at L-2 made it sooner, not later.

now I'm going to go way way back and comment on posts as I read back to now.

[ashersky]

I refuse to lynch someone for IRL.

Shame on all of you voting liopoil.

[Eevee]

It's not the amount of posts lio has made that made me vote for him.

[liopoil]

I refuse to lynch someone for IRL.

I don't really have an excuse. my comment about exam week was immediately followed by essentially saying that it doesn't make my lurking excusable.

not asking to be lynched though!

really though, I do have time. If I didn't, I would have posted something in the V/LA thread.

[Voltaire]

I refuse to lynch someone for IRL.

Shame on all of you voting liopoil.

I'd really only say shame for those voting after his "I've been busy" post.

ash, it really doesn't look like a faust lynch is going through. Nor chairs. Who do you want lynched? At one point you'd called Teproc almost as scummy as them. What happened to that?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Serious ash? Why are you trying to derail really the only good wagon we've had D1?
Who do you suggest we lynch? Faust? I don't think that's about to happen right now.

[Ichimaru Gin]

PPE: Just missed Voltaire's post.

[ashersky]

It's not the amount of posts lio has made that made me vote for him.

What has he done that's scummy, though?  Lack of content comes from lack of posts.  It's not like he's tossing votes willy-nilly.

We can't, as a community, lynch lurkers with irl excuses.  Just like we can't as players make up irl excuses for lurking.  College exams are valid and important.

[liopoil]

Serious ash? Why are you trying to derail really the only good wagon we've had D1?
Who do you suggest we lynch? Faust? I don't think that's about to happen right now.

now this is ridiculous. If you don't want to lynch someone, and there's a wagon on them, of course you should try to derail it. And at some point in every D1 there will be a wagon that is the only good wagon we've had. Should we always lynch the first player to get a wagon on them?

[ashersky]

I refuse to lynch someone for IRL.

Shame on all of you voting liopoil.

I'd really only say shame for those voting after his "I've been busy" post.

ash, it really doesn't look like a faust lynch is going through. Nor chairs. Who do you want lynched? At one point you'd called Teproc almost as scummy as them. What happened to that?

I posted my pops quiz yesterday.  I suggested we all do a scum possibility ranking.  No one responded to either.

[liopoil]

ash, here's eevee's vote on me:

Here goes some very rough POE:

Players:
1. Voltaire
2. Robz888
3. mail-mi
4. Chairs
5. Ashersky
6. Yuma
7. Ichimaru Gin
8. Lekkit
9. Liopoil
10. Teproc
11. 2.7
12. Eevee
13. Faust

Players 1-7 eliminated due to activity / general controversy surrounding them (and IG for being new, I agree it's no fun to start of your mafia career by getting lynched).

I wouldn't oppose my lynch if I didn't know my alignment, I know my performance this far has been lacking. Day 1s, I just don't see much happening.

Anyways, faust/Teproc have also been involved in a way I can remember, and Lekkit gets a pass for attempting a case on Voltaire, leaving me to a Vote: liopoil Robz's observations about his play being similar to Toy Story are a nice addition to my own PoE.

I'll note that not all of the players 1-6 have been heavy contributers, and that he doesn't mention e, and doesn't explain why the things he says about faust, teproc, and lekkit are deserving of a D1 pass.

This is why POE isn't so good D1. later, it's awesome. not now.

[liopoil]

That sounds.. very hard for scum that doesn't know the show (game?).

Jeez people, everything will be explained.

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

I thought this was the fake claim info, plus a no face post later.

All before PMs.

But we also have a flavor name. Can we claim flavor name? Unless scum were provided with fake flavor names, they're caught. The "No Face" is just to remind people that's the flavor for VT (same as last game) I assume.

this, and a couple similar posts by voltaire give me a further townread on him, because he's being pretty bold in saying things about the setup in a situation where we don't definitively know how it works. Saying we all have a flavor name as scum is potentially dangerous if we didn't all have a flavor name.

[ashersky]

ash, here's eevee's vote on me:

Here goes some very rough POE:

Players:
1. Voltaire
2. Robz888
3. mail-mi
4. Chairs
5. Ashersky
6. Yuma
7. Ichimaru Gin
8. Lekkit
9. Liopoil
10. Teproc
11. 2.7
12. Eevee
13. Faust

Players 1-7 eliminated due to activity / general controversy surrounding them (and IG for being new, I agree it's no fun to start of your mafia career by getting lynched).

I wouldn't oppose my lynch if I didn't know my alignment, I know my performance this far has been lacking. Day 1s, I just don't see much happening.

Anyways, faust/Teproc have also been involved in a way I can remember, and Lekkit gets a pass for attempting a case on Voltaire, leaving me to a Vote: liopoil Robz's observations about his play being similar to Toy Story are a nice addition to my own PoE.

I'll note that not all of the players 1-6 have been heavy contributers, and that he doesn't mention e, and doesn't explain why the things he says about faust, teproc, and lekkit are deserving of a D1 pass.

This is why POE isn't so good D1. later, it's awesome. not now.

Robz's case is lio is lurking on D1, he just did that as his scum partner in toy story, ergo he is scum.

That's a lurking case with some weak meta thrown in.  Bug you've explained the irl reason, so time to move on.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Serious ash? Why are you trying to derail really the only good wagon we've had D1?
Who do you suggest we lynch? Faust? I don't think that's about to happen right now.

now this is ridiculous. If you don't want to lynch someone, and there's a wagon on them, of course you should try to derail it. And at some point in every D1 there will be a wagon that is the only good wagon we've had. Should we always lynch the first player to get a wagon on them?

I agree. Of course everyone should do as they see best. I don't want to tell anyone what to do, just expressing *my* opinion. I think Ash is reading too much into IRL, as you yourself said

right, I don't really have an excuse. my comment about exam week was immediately followed by essentially saying that it doesn't make my lurking excusable. and again, of course I shouldn't need to be at L-2, and I'm sure I would have caught up sooner or later regardless of people voting for me. being at L-2 made it sooner, not later.

now I'm going to go way way back and comment on posts as I read back to now.

So for Ash to be "We're lynching someone for IRL" just doesn't make sense to me. But hey, it all depends on what those who are currently voting otherwise believe--and whether they agree with Ash or not. I don't think we should just randomly follow the first good wagon that gets rolling, but at the same time, I think that there are at least 2 other's out there willing to finish this off. We'll see though.

[ashersky]

vote: Ichimaru Gin.

This is a policy vote.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'd appreciate an explanation. If this is because you think that we're making the mistake of lynching someone for lurking when it is only caused by IRL problems that they can't control. Fine.
Otherwise, I don't really get it. I'm pretty sure that's the reason though.

[ashersky]

I'd appreciate an explanation. If this is because you think that we're making the mistake of lynching someone for lurking when it is only caused by IRL problems that they can't control. Fine.
Otherwise, I don't really get it. I'm pretty sure that's the reason though.

You are correct.

If someone presents a new case, or re-presents an old one I missed that is unrelated to the fact that liopoil has been posting less than the norm, I would listen and understand/accept people voting for those reasons, whether I agree or not.

I firmly believe the sanctity of IRL VLA needs to be defended (by not lynching for it, but also by not lying/manipulating the excuse) to keep these games as fun and open to all as possible.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'd appreciate an explanation. If this is because you think that we're making the mistake of lynching someone for lurking when it is only caused by IRL problems that they can't control. Fine.
Otherwise, I don't really get it. I'm pretty sure that's the reason though.

You are correct.

If someone presents a new case, or re-presents an old one I missed that is unrelated to the fact that liopoil has been posting less than the norm, I would listen and understand/accept people voting for those reasons, whether I agree or not.

I firmly believe the sanctity of IRL VLA needs to be defended (by not lynching for it, but also by not lying/manipulating the excuse) to keep these games as fun and open to all as possible.

Fair enough. And Liopoil, I know you've said some different things about this. I can understand the importance of Finals.
I guess I just question exactly how much time they take. But that's only me. It's quite possible that you're taking a huge number of units and need to be studying almost constantly in preparation. Or, I could even understand that the game is also a distraction, something going on in the back of your mind. At any rate, I don't want to be the one that kills someone just cause they were busy with school.
Ash and I , I think agree that we shouldn't lynch people for IRL and Finals are very important. However, we disagree as to the exact severity of time required. And that's fine. Please tell us if you really are completely swamped!

[liopoil]

Small town read on Teproc I think. Maybe. But a big one on Robz.

why? just because robz told us about flavor? just because teproc was anti flavor claim?

[liopoil]

I'd appreciate an explanation. If this is because you think that we're making the mistake of lynching someone for lurking when it is only caused by IRL problems that they can't control. Fine.
Otherwise, I don't really get it. I'm pretty sure that's the reason though.

You are correct.

If someone presents a new case, or re-presents an old one I missed that is unrelated to the fact that liopoil has been posting less than the norm, I would listen and understand/accept people voting for those reasons, whether I agree or not.

I firmly believe the sanctity of IRL VLA needs to be defended (by not lynching for it, but also by not lying/manipulating the excuse) to keep these games as fun and open to all as possible.

Fair enough. And Liopoil, I know you've said some different things about this. I can understand the importance of Finals.
I guess I just question exactly how much time they take. But that's only me. It's quite possible that you're taking a huge number of units and need to be studying almost constantly in preparation. Or, I could even understand that the game is also a distraction, something going on in the back of your mind. At any rate, I don't want to be the one that kills someone just cause they were busy with school.
Ash and I , I think agree that we shouldn't lynch people for IRL and Finals are very important. However, we disagree as to the exact severity of time required. And that's fine. Please tell us if you really are completely swamped!

I'm not swamped, or really even close to that. I don't know why ashersky is giving me a pass. I agree with not questioning IRL reasons. I also think that if someone is going to have limited access they should post this in the V/LA thread either before or after the V/LA. And that in the V/LA thread there is no lying or stretching the truth allowed. I haven't posted there because I don't think that exams are an excuse for me in this case. sometimes exams are a reason for V/LA, for sure, and I would totally excuse lurking for someone else if they needed to study for exams a ton. In this case though, it isn't a huge deal.

[Voltaire]

I firmly believe the sanctity of IRL VLA needs to be defended (by not lynching for it, but also by not lying/manipulating the excuse) to keep these games as fun and open to all as possible.

I agree with you. But here's the problem with applying this to lio:

I refuse to lynch someone for IRL.

I don't really have an excuse. my comment about exam week was immediately followed by essentially saying that it doesn't make my lurking excusable.

not asking to be lynched though!

really though, I do have time. If I didn't, I would have posted something in the V/LA thread.

PPE: lio himself.

[Voltaire]

Small town read on Teproc I think. Maybe. But a big one on Robz.

why? just because robz told us about flavor? just because teproc was anti flavor claim?

No, not because he told us about flavor. Yes because of the way Teproc was anti-flavor claim. This was swamped by some scummy stuff he said later and I'm back to null on him. As for Robz, it was because of his series of posts from 112-119. That read has tempered somewhat only due to time now.

[mail-mi]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

[Robz888]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

[mail-mi]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

I think I'm not you. And yes, Volt does have a bias against me. MC, WWTWDP (even though he was scum), BtB, others, he's had a bias against me.

[liopoil]

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

since when do we always let mail-mi live??

[Voltaire]

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

since when do we always let mail-mi live??

I'm really, really scarred by GoT.

mail-mi is right that I have a bias against him. I'll fully admit that.

[mail-mi]

Separately, I do see a similarity between Toystoryliopoil and hereliopoil. I am willing to lynch.

Want to lynch: voltaire, liopoil.
Willing: faust, 2.7
Wouldn't shed a tear over: Everyone else
Won't: mail-mi, yuma

[2.71828.....]

And, only one Final to go. . .
I'm voting Liopoil because.
1. He has a very low post count.
2. The posts that he has made are relatively low on content
3. When attacked, he responded with

well dang, sorry guys. It's exam week, but I still should have contributed more than I have been. catching up. Serious thank you for putting me at L-2, so I have a motive to contribute... because lynching town is bad. It really should not work that way, but it did.

e: I get being frustrated at lurkers. Once upon a time, I actually was near the top of the post count a few games in a row, and I was frustrated at lurkers too. But now that I've been there, I realize it's just something we have to deal with. Is it bad for town? yes. Should it happen? no. Will it inevitably happen every game? yes. We're playing a game on the internet, and while everyone made a commitment in signing up, they aren't really committed in the sense that nothing terrible happens to them if they lurk.

That said, it still is rude of me and others to put this game to the side and not contribute. I'm going to try to get back into this game now, something that I've done successfully a few times as both alignments.

I do understand the pressures of exams. I just got out of one ten minutes ago. However, I feel that this is still a poor reason for lurking. I mean, I know how much time I waste doing other things all the time--even during Final's week. You can almost always find a couple minutes to check in and post something that really adds to the game. Generally, I found this response pretty scummy in that it's excuses didn't really add up.
And when it comes down to it, like I said, we need a lynch. Even a lurker lynch is usually better than no lynch. So let's see this finished before the deadline.

ok. This rubbed me the wrong way. It almost felt like a "let's get the least bad lynch in." That type of behavior is not pro town. That is one of the reasons that I was voting Faust. The deadline is in less than 48 hours, but there is still time to build a case on someone else and we do not need to comment ourselves with an ok VT lynch. Although, I can see how a new player will feel the pressure here to make sure we get a lynch.

[Robz888]

Didn't realize deadline was so soon. I'll lynch liopoil, mail-mi, whoever. Well, not yuma, ash, or Voltaire, just because we need them too badly and none of them seem at all scummy to me.

Uh, I guess I'm more concerned that this wasn't a very good Day 1, since I don't really have any reads... Other than strongly thinking ash is town, which is something I always think anyway. And that chairs is PR or scum.

[2.71828.....]

After the whole chairs thing chairs has totally dropped off the radar. I think in a game like this (JK9++) getting reads from night actions will be huge. Chairs especially will need a positive result to help me post him toward town PR and away from scum.

[Robz888]

You know what, I bet neither liopoil nor mail-mi flip scum, they're just too easy.

Let's try semi-random last minute lynch again. Vote: Lekkit, an un-scrutinized lurker.

[Voltaire]

You know what, I bet neither liopoil nor mail-mi flip scum, they're just too easy.

Let's try semi-random last minute lynch again. Vote: Lekkit, an un-scrutinized lurker.

I'm fine with the concept, not fine with the candidate. He's not a lurker. Go re-read him. His posts have content. Specifically read his case against me. It's wrong, but can you imagine scum making it? I think it's far more likely to come from town.

[liopoil]

You know what, I bet neither liopoil nor mail-mi flip scum, they're just too easy.

Let's try semi-random last minute lynch again. Vote: Lekkit, an un-scrutinized lurker.

I'm fine with the concept, not fine with the candidate. He's not a lurker. Go re-read him. His posts have content. Specifically read his case against me. It's wrong, but can you imagine scum making it? I think it's far more likely to come from town.

I like the concept too, but yeah, wrong guy. who's the right guy? not sure yet.

quickly reread mail-mi, didn't see much for voltaire to suspect, though I actually haven't looked for where voltaire spelled out his suspicion of mail-mi. He was pretty strong against the flavor claiming, but so was I a bit, as was teproc. Really isn't much to get a read on anybody.

[2.71828.....]

If we want random lurker eevee is our guy

[liopoil]

The case on mail-mi: being normal mail-mi, and also appearing to be trying. That's how you find scum!mail-mi. For D1, I'm reasonably happy with this.

here's what I found when I looked for voltaire's case on mail-mi. What did he say that struck you as trying too hard to be normal mail-mi?

also, I would think that it wouldn't take much effort for mail-mi to be normal mail-mi... what else would he be? doing something else sounds harder.

[liopoil]

also:

/somuchin.

Please don't make me scum again!

he can't be scum!

[Robz888]

You know what, I bet neither liopoil nor mail-mi flip scum, they're just too easy.

Let's try semi-random last minute lynch again. Vote: Lekkit, an un-scrutinized lurker.

I'm fine with the concept, not fine with the candidate. He's not a lurker. Go re-read him. His posts have content. Specifically read his case against me. It's wrong, but can you imagine scum making it? I think it's far more likely to come from town.

Okay, just reread: you're definitely right he's not lurker (actually think Lekkit is maybe a she? Has a female Goko avatar...), however, seems to me all his stances could easily be scum stances. Really, Lekkit's very consistently opposed flavor claiming, and very consistently built a case against Voltaire.

Okay, so, I've said this before and I'll say it again, I really do think flavor claiming would benefit town, and I've been shut down left and right by like people who oppose it on philosophical grounds, which I think is dumb but actually fairly townie. Lekkit actually thinks claiming would be bad, and this I do believe is wrong, and something scum would say.

As for the case against you, maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. It's probably wrong. It did take a good amount of work, yoeah, that tends toward townie probably. But I don't know, it's very safe. He's sort of parked himself on it, you know?

[Robz888]

If we want random lurker eevee is our guy

Oops, didn't even remember Eevee, that's how much he is the right choice, yes yes yes yes. Vote: Eevee

[Ichimaru Gin]

And, only one Final to go. . .
I'm voting Liopoil because.
1. He has a very low post count.
2. The posts that he has made are relatively low on content
3. When attacked, he responded with

well dang, sorry guys. It's exam week, but I still should have contributed more than I have been. catching up. Serious thank you for putting me at L-2, so I have a motive to contribute... because lynching town is bad. It really should not work that way, but it did.

e: I get being frustrated at lurkers. Once upon a time, I actually was near the top of the post count a few games in a row, and I was frustrated at lurkers too. But now that I've been there, I realize it's just something we have to deal with. Is it bad for town? yes. Should it happen? no. Will it inevitably happen every game? yes. We're playing a game on the internet, and while everyone made a commitment in signing up, they aren't really committed in the sense that nothing terrible happens to them if they lurk.

That said, it still is rude of me and others to put this game to the side and not contribute. I'm going to try to get back into this game now, something that I've done successfully a few times as both alignments.

I do understand the pressures of exams. I just got out of one ten minutes ago. However, I feel that this is still a poor reason for lurking. I mean, I know how much time I waste doing other things all the time--even during Final's week. You can almost always find a couple minutes to check in and post something that really adds to the game. Generally, I found this response pretty scummy in that it's excuses didn't really add up.
And when it comes down to it, like I said, we need a lynch. Even a lurker lynch is usually better than no lynch. So let's see this finished before the deadline.

ok. This rubbed me the wrong way. It almost felt like a "let's get the least bad lynch in." That type of behavior is not pro town. That is one of the reasons that I was voting Faust. The deadline is in less than 48 hours, but there is still time to build a case on someone else and we do not need to comment ourselves with an ok VT lynch. Although, I can see how a new player will feel the pressure here to make sure we get a lynch.

You're probably right on that. And don't think I was considering just how much development could happen in 48 hours. If there is a strong case against someone else, I will certainly change my vote to reflect that. In hindsight, I probably made things sound a little more open and shut then they actually are.
I don't yet have a handle on what the progression of a regular game would be exactly. But I guess two days is still a lot of time for things to change. And yes, the goal isn't just to lynch someone when it seems like it won't hurt town much; the goal is to lynch scum. There's just so little information D1, it's hard to tell.
Liopoil is the first D1 wagon, but there's certainly room for another before the deadline.

[liopoil]

to have my vote somewhere, vote: eevee. also because if I had to lynch someone right now that's probably who I'd pick.

[Voltaire]

As for the case against you, maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. It's probably wrong. It did take a good amount of work, yoeah, that tends toward townie probably. But I don't know, it's very safe. He's sort of parked himself on it, you know?

He also has the "wait, what?" where he clearly thinks I've scum-slipped. Though scum-slips are never a reason to vote for someone, I see newbie town as on the lookout for that sort of easy thing.

(also Lekkit if you prefer "she" apologies, just let us know!)

[2.71828.....]

Check the profile. Lekkit is "male" according to it. No need for speculation

[Eevee]

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Lekkit's male, I'm pretty sure.

[2.71828.....]

As for the case against you, maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong. It's probably wrong. It did take a good amount of work, yoeah, that tends toward townie probably. But I don't know, it's very safe. He's sort of parked himself on it, you know?

He also has the "wait, what?" where he clearly thinks I've scum-slipped. Though scum-slips are never a reason to vote for someone, I see newbie town as on the lookout for that sort of easy thing.

(also Lekkit if you prefer "she" apologies, just let us know!)

lekkit is not a newbie. He took a break, and is back

[Voltaire]

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Where have you been/what have you been doing, I guess.

Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

[Voltaire]

lekkit is not a newbie. He took a break, and is back

That is right, and wonderfully enough, I corrected someone else about that earlier, then forgot.

[Eevee]

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Where have you been/what have you been doing, I guess.

Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

I haven't been VLA, if that's what you are asking? Just.. day 1, I just don't see things I find worth commenting that much. I've chimed in every time I've had something reasonable to offer.

I won't claim that my play has been particularly towny, self meta arguments are dumb. If you want a semi-random lynch of someone who is matching both their town- and scummetas and is not standing out enough, I guess I'm a fine choice. That's the method that landed me on liopoil, pretty much. I'm not scum though.

[Eevee]

I don't think my level of activity has been egregiously low for day 1.

[2.71828.....]

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Where have you been/what have you been doing, I guess.

Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

I haven't been VLA, if that's what you are asking? Just.. day 1, I just don't see things I find worth commenting that much. I've chimed in every time I've had something reasonable to offer.

I won't claim that my play has been particularly towny, self meta arguments are dumb. If you want a semi-random lynch of someone who is matching both their town- and scummetas and is not standing out enough, I guess I'm a fine choice. That's the method that landed me on liopoil, pretty much. I'm not scum though.

that seems very laissez faire

[yuma]

Ash is clearly faking his certainty to send us some sort of a message. The problem with artificially creating reads to send a message is that.. well, he is not being genuine, and if he is scum, he has all the motivation in the world to manipulate us into thinking otherwise.

I agree he is exaggerating his certainty to send us a message, but sadly I don't think we can really read much into the message. To me it's a very loud and distracting null-tell (that could help determining the alignments of other players once we get some flips and wagons, people often react to ash very strongly until they realize what he is doing).

and they certainly start realizing it once someone starts pointing it out...

[yuma]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

[yuma]

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

since when do we always let mail-mi live??

I can think of two prime examples... Pirates2 and GoT. Both games he had very scummy behavior and was let off the hook because it wasn't "egregious" and because it was apparently his meta... I think you could toss in Dynasty Warriors1 as well as he was allowed to live for a long time despite scummy behavior and was only killed because chairs shot him in the night.

But perhaps always is a bit of a stretch, but not by much of late. mail-mi used to be the mislynch now he is the survivalist of sorts...

[ashersky]

If we want random lurker eevee is our guy

Correct!

[yuma]

I'd appreciate an explanation. If this is because you think that we're making the mistake of lynching someone for lurking when it is only caused by IRL problems that they can't control. Fine.
Otherwise, I don't really get it. I'm pretty sure that's the reason though.

You are correct.

If someone presents a new case, or re-presents an old one I missed that is unrelated to the fact that liopoil has been posting less than the norm, I would listen and understand/accept people voting for those reasons, whether I agree or not.

I firmly believe the sanctity of IRL VLA needs to be defended (by not lynching for it, but also by not lying/manipulating the excuse) to keep these games as fun and open to all as possible.

Fair enough. And Liopoil, I know you've said some different things about this. I can understand the importance of Finals.
I guess I just question exactly how much time they take. But that's only me. It's quite possible that you're taking a huge number of units and need to be studying almost constantly in preparation. Or, I could even understand that the game is also a distraction, something going on in the back of your mind. At any rate, I don't want to be the one that kills someone just cause they were busy with school.
Ash and I , I think agree that we shouldn't lynch people for IRL and Finals are very important. However, we disagree as to the exact severity of time required. And that's fine. Please tell us if you really are completely swamped!

I'm not swamped, or really even close to that. I don't know why ashersky is giving me a pass. I agree with not questioning IRL reasons. I also think that if someone is going to have limited access they should post this in the V/LA thread either before or after the V/LA. And that in the V/LA thread there is no lying or stretching the truth allowed. I haven't posted there because I don't think that exams are an excuse for me in this case. sometimes exams are a reason for V/LA, for sure, and I would totally excuse lurking for someone else if they needed to study for exams a ton. In this case though, it isn't a huge deal.

This completely. I agree wish that RL VLA should be respected, but the onus is on the player to state a VLA. w/o that the player in question is totally up for being scrutinized and voted and lynched. It is why we have the VLA thread in the first place. As such I feel that ash's policy vote isn't justified and that irimichu isn't in the wrong...

and I do think that liopoil is someone I would vote for... but it isn't based off what others are voting him for, it is based off how he has responded to being put at L-2.

I said this in Toy Story speccy QT:

liopoil is looking scummy here in response. He is being too level headed, too calm (or rather appears to be forcing himself to be calm). Reminds me of how he reacted in Back to Basics, he was really trying to be rational and logical. As town I think he would be enraged and much more abrasive and difficult.

Here again he is very level headed and calm. The times he has been town and had suspicion on him I felt he was much more dynamic and enraged.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.10

战争来的风语

2.7... (2): Teproc, yuma
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (2): mail-mi, Lekkit
Ichimaru Gin (1): ashersky
Eevee (2): Robz888, liopoil
liopoil (4): Eevee，chairs, faust, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (1):2.7....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[Robz888]

and I do think that liopoil is someone I would vote for... but it isn't based off what others are voting him for, it is based off how he has responded to being put at L-2.

I said this in Toy Story speccy QT:

liopoil is looking scummy here in response. He is being too level headed, too calm (or rather appears to be forcing himself to be calm). Reminds me of how he reacted in Back to Basics, he was really trying to be rational and logical. As town I think he would be enraged and much more abrasive and difficult.

Here again he is very level headed and calm. The times he has been town and had suspicion on him I felt he was much more dynamic and enraged.

I kind of agree with this, I was just thinking something like this. I was just thinking that liopoil's recent statements make him less deserving of being lynched, but probably more likely to be scum for exactly that reason.

[liopoil]

I think that I'm only less levelheaded when I'm town and the case against me is terrible. In this game, the case against me isn't ridiculous, just wrong. In those other games, I was frustrated because the suspicion on me was totally unwarrented I thought, and so responded pretty heavily. I mean, how are you expecting me to react as town? should I be saying that it's absurd to vote for me for lurking?

[liopoil]

and yes, in toy story I was forcing myself to be calm, because I was freaking out that yuma flipped town.

[yuma]

Ok:

I am going to try to do my Galz deduction as mentioned before, again here is Galz with the main points:

Every town player there right now is trying too hard to finger scum. To catch them. That won't work d1. Flip it around. Don't look for that one good case for somebody being scum, look for reasons to eliminate people. Give them reasons to be town - or at least a reason not to lynch. PoE down based on not who's "most likely" to be scum, but instead by eliminating those "less likely" to be scum.

The trick is making reasonable arguments for certain people to be removed from lynch candidacy. Arguments that most agree on. Post count alone gets them a d1 pass from me. Can scum post a lot? Yes, but it's harder. And while one might be scum, there's a very, very low likelihood that two are. So look elsewhere.

So I am looking for least likely to be scum:

Right off the bat I am removing: yuma (myself), Ichimaru Gin (new player, this I think is essential in the development of our community and like Teproc said, newer players are extremely hard to read day1 cause very little meta is established), Voltaire (his stances on claiming and his presence I think removes him), chairs (the early day stuff... but he has been noticably absent of late... chairs you posted more before you had Internet!!!)

So that leaves: Eevee, Robz, Teproc, faust, 2.7, liopoil, mail-mi, Lekkit, ashersky

Post count time:

1. Voltaire - 103
2. Robz888 - 56
3. mail-mi - 36
4. Chairs - 34
5. Ashersky - 78
6. Yuma - 53
7. Ichimaru Gin - 31
8. Lekkit - 25
9. Liopoil - 32
10. Teproc - 65
11. 2.7 - 89
12. Eevee - 31
13. Faust - 42

Now I am using this post count with a grain of salt... because well as people have said it doesn't really reflect a lot. Like Lekkit isn't low in quality. 2.7 has obviously increased his posting dramatically... so really based off this the only player I am removing is ashersky and maybe teproc? Add in how they are playing the game, ash can do anything as any alignment, but I do feel like he is being extremely aggressive here and seems more town, enough for me to remove him. Teproc--well f.ds still hasn't seen him as mafia, but from everything I can tell he seems quite similar to how he was in GoT except more confident and sure of himself now that he is more familiar with the community.

So now I am left with:

Liopoil, Robz, Eevee, Lekkit, faust, 2.7, mail-mi:

Robz - well I think Robz should be removed just because he is so often the night kill... No guys I am not using the argument I hate that people use on me or Robz. Not at all, because I think everyone--myself included automatically becomes more likely to be scum after surviving nights, as long as mafia aren't getting killed off... So it isn't that I think Robz becomes more scummy than others the longer he survives, but rather that he tends to get night killed regardless of alignment... it just happens with him. So why use up a lynch when we can let someone else give us his alignment later on in the game. If he is town, I hope he isn't shot at... but well, he is so often a threat that it just happens with him.

And I don't really feel comfortable removing anyone else. Lekkit would be my closest to a removal, but not quite... maybe faust as well (and I don't think he is getting lynched anyways after such little response from me and everyone else in regard to the case ash and 2.7 had on him...)

From this point I want to try to find scummier players out of: liopoil, eevee, 2.7 and mail-mi and maybe faust, lekkit.

[yuma]

I think that I'm only less levelheaded when I'm town and the case against me is terrible. In this game, the case against me isn't ridiculous, just wrong. In those other games, I was frustrated because the suspicion on me was totally unwarrented I thought, and so responded pretty heavily. I mean, how are you expecting me to react as town? should I be saying that it's absurd to vote for me for lurking?

I guess that is a fair point.

I am trying to remember... how did you react in ModernCommunity. I modded that game and can't remember that well.... you kinda came under the same suspicion for lurking (and had to sub out)... does anyone remember?

[liopoil]

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

I like this idea. The actual percentage is about 27%, but that hardly matters. I think we should do this, I think it's a better form of popsquiz.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.10

2.7... (2): Teproc, yuma
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (2): mail-mi, Lekkit
Ichimaru Gin (1): ashersky
Eevee (2): Robz888, liopoil
liopoil (4): Eevee，chairs, faust, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (1):2.7....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

That liopoil wagon is terrible.  Eevee and chairs are hardcore lurking.  Chairs and faust are hardcore scum reads.  Ichimaru Gin is new and wouldn't know the meta-argument using to lynch lio in the first place.

And 2.7 isn't even voting, and we're less than 2 days to deadline.  Terrible D1, as Robz said.

[yuma]

That liopoil wagon is terrible.  Eevee and chairs are hardcore lurking.  Chairs and faust are hardcore scum reads.  Ichimaru Gin is new and wouldn't know the meta-argument using to lynch lio in the first place.

And 2.7 isn't even voting, and we're less than 2 days to deadline.  Terrible D1, as Robz said.

Well it isn't like you are helping. All you have done is shout "lynch faust" over and over again and then call every wagon and case that has come up "horrible."

Vote for 2.7 now?

[yuma]

and I should clarify that, that I am not trying to be rude and say that you have been worthless ash or that I don't value your contributions... I do. But rather that everyone has been kinda off today. It has been a weird day and I don't know what to make of it. So yeah, bad day1, but part of the blame is yours, part is mine, part is others...

[yuma]

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

I like this idea. The actual percentage is about 27%, but that hardly matters. I think we should do this, I think it's a better form of popsquiz.

I like the idea of getting people to put their reads out, but I don't like the idea of forcing them to do it a certain style. I for one won't be putting percentages onto my reads... why? Because they would be completely arbitrary... I don't think like that and wouldn't have meaning but instead would have meaning attached to them by others that wasn't intended....

Let people scum-hunt the way they want to. Call out those who aren't at all, but let others do it how they want to...

[2.71828.....]

[Yuma galz deduction post]

I really like this and agree that this is how we should proceed after a pitiful D1

The first four people he takes off I agree with completely.  Although I would not just blatantly give Yuma the pass he gave himself, his involvement takes him off the table D1.

As far as eliminating people due to post count, I think teproc gets off. Ash gets off.  I don't get off. I assume because I had a clear point where you could say "he wasn't posting then, he is posting now" is the reason I don't get the pass. So you need to make a decision. Town narrative- 2.7 saw the very unproductive day and did not want it to go to waste so totally reengaged with the game in an attempt to get the game rolling. Scum narrative- 2.7 knew he would be judged by his previous game as well as by his current ongoing game where he has established himself as someone not entirely useless. So he fabricates a case against someone in an attempt to appear useful and active.

I agree with taking robz off next.

So now Faust, 2.7, lekkit, eevee, liopoil, mail-mi. Of these people I would go ahead and remove lekkit. I think it is reasonable to remove him 1) while having fewer posts, they have had content and 2) it's his first game back in a while. I also think it is reasonable to remove 2.7 because 1) he has shown that he is willing to put himself out there for reads even if people think he is scummy for it and 2) you know he will keep posting D2 with more reads and if he is scum (which is by no means certain) extra reads from scum on D2 are useful because it gives us more content to reference (not that I am scum, I am just trying to be as impartial as possible). And Faust just probably isn't going to happen after ash/2.7 being on him so hard so long and not a single other person joined.

So liopoil, eevee, and mail-mi are my three remaining people who I do not see a good reason not to pursue a D1 lynch.

Of those three, eevee has provided no reasons at all as to why he should be removed from lynch candidacy. Even after pressed, he was kind of like "eh, didn't have much to say."

So my process of galz D1 deduction leads me to vote: eevee.

[2.71828.....]

I know the basic reason I put out for removing me (after the post count phase) was, "even if he is scum it would be good to have him around D2"

That is not the real reason I should be eliminated though. I should be eliminated because of the town narrative I provided for my post count. I was just keeping myself in a little longer to show that even if you reject my town narrative, there are reasons to keep 2.7 around. Maybe a little presumptuous, but I didn't want to just write myself off immediately because I wanted to be as non biased as possible and because I know people really do suspect me.

[yuma]

I don't get off. I assume because I had a clear point where you could say "he wasn't posting then, he is posting now" is the reason I don't get the pass. So you need to make a decision. Town narrative- 2.7 saw the very unproductive day and did not want it to go to waste so totally reengaged with the game in an attempt to get the game rolling. Scum narrative- 2.7 knew he would be judged by his previous game as well as by his current ongoing game where he has established himself as someone not entirely useless. So he fabricates a case against someone in an attempt to appear useful and active.
...
I also think it is reasonable to remove 2.7 because 1) he has shown that he is willing to put himself out there for reads even if people think he is scummy for it and 2) you know he will keep posting D2 with more reads and if he is scum (which is by no means certain) extra reads from scum on D2 are useful because it gives us more content to reference (not that I am scum, I am just trying to be as impartial as possible).

I am trying to look at both narratives and I do appreciate that you are posting more if you are town. It certainly helps. Like I said above, I haven't really had a chance to start looking at who is the scummiest out of the players left for me to look at. That will have to be a task for tomorrow after work cause bedtime is about here.

I would also add to the potential scum narrative that it isn't just fabricating a case (your words not mine) but also that you sheeped a case that was more or less already around from ash but not fully fleshed out... This is a great place for mafia to jump onto if they are scum and looking for something to talk about... taking someone's opinion and running with it.

[ashersky]

That liopoil wagon is terrible.  Eevee and chairs are hardcore lurking.  Chairs and faust are hardcore scum reads.  Ichimaru Gin is new and wouldn't know the meta-argument using to lynch lio in the first place.

And 2.7 isn't even voting, and we're less than 2 days to deadline.  Terrible D1, as Robz said.

Well it isn't like you are helping. All you have done is shout "lynch faust" over and over again and then call every wagon and case that has come up "horrible."

Vote for 2.7 now?

Well, if you all followed my lead, we wouldn't be in this predicament.

As it is, no one is getting lynched, as there is no agreement.

I could see Eevee happening, I suppose.

[2.71828.....]

I don't get off. I assume because I had a clear point where you could say "he wasn't posting then, he is posting now" is the reason I don't get the pass. So you need to make a decision. Town narrative- 2.7 saw the very unproductive day and did not want it to go to waste so totally reengaged with the game in an attempt to get the game rolling. Scum narrative- 2.7 knew he would be judged by his previous game as well as by his current ongoing game where he has established himself as someone not entirely useless. So he fabricates a case against someone in an attempt to appear useful and active.
...
I also think it is reasonable to remove 2.7 because 1) he has shown that he is willing to put himself out there for reads even if people think he is scummy for it and 2) you know he will keep posting D2 with more reads and if he is scum (which is by no means certain) extra reads from scum on D2 are useful because it gives us more content to reference (not that I am scum, I am just trying to be as impartial as possible).

I am trying to look at both narratives and I do appreciate that you are posting more if you are town. It certainly helps. Like I said above, I haven't really had a chance to start looking at who is the scummiest out of the players left for me to look at. That will have to be a task for tomorrow after work cause bedtime is about here.

I would also add to the potential scum narrative that it isn't just fabricating a case (your words not mine) but also that you sheeped a case that was more or less already around from ash but not fully fleshed out... This is a great place for mafia to jump onto if they are scum and looking for something to talk about... taking someone's opinion and running with it.

good point. In my mind I was not sheeping the case, it just so happened that ash saw the same thing I did. I posted my case 4 1/2 days after ashersky placed his vote. I was doing my reread, and as you yourself had mentioned, things were pretty dead. Faust's post was the scummiest I saw, and I jumped on it.

[ashersky]

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

I like this idea. The actual percentage is about 27%, but that hardly matters. I think we should do this, I think it's a better form of popsquiz.

I like the idea of getting people to put their reads out, but I don't like the idea of forcing them to do it a certain style. I for one won't be putting percentages onto my reads... why? Because they would be completely arbitrary... I don't think like that and wouldn't have meaning but instead would have meaning attached to them by others that wasn't intended....

Let people scum-hunt the way they want to. Call out those who aren't at all, but let others do it how they want to...

Hey, it was just an idea to get people talking, putting down reads for the record, etc.  Clearly it didn't work, as the day just stagnated anyway.  At least I tried.

[2.71828.....]

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

I like this idea. The actual percentage is about 27%, but that hardly matters. I think we should do this, I think it's a better form of popsquiz.

I like the idea of getting people to put their reads out, but I don't like the idea of forcing them to do it a certain style. I for one won't be putting percentages onto my reads... why? Because they would be completely arbitrary... I don't think like that and wouldn't have meaning but instead would have meaning attached to them by others that wasn't intended....

Let people scum-hunt the way they want to. Call out those who aren't at all, but let others do it how they want to...

Hey, it was just an idea to get people talking, putting down reads for the record, etc.  Clearly it didn't work, as the day just stagnated anyway.  At least I tried.

I didn't quite get it. Is it prevent chance we think they are scum?
Do I say
e-0%
Faust-62.8%
Ashersky-21.7%
Etc....
And continue down the line? (Those numbers were made up)

[mail-mi]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

Bolded that for you.

[ashersky]

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

I like this idea. The actual percentage is about 27%, but that hardly matters. I think we should do this, I think it's a better form of popsquiz.

I like the idea of getting people to put their reads out, but I don't like the idea of forcing them to do it a certain style. I for one won't be putting percentages onto my reads... why? Because they would be completely arbitrary... I don't think like that and wouldn't have meaning but instead would have meaning attached to them by others that wasn't intended....

Let people scum-hunt the way they want to. Call out those who aren't at all, but let others do it how they want to...

Hey, it was just an idea to get people talking, putting down reads for the record, etc.  Clearly it didn't work, as the day just stagnated anyway.  At least I tried.

I didn't quite get it. Is it prevent chance we think they are scum?
Do I say
e-0%
Faust-62.8%
Ashersky-21.7%
Etc....
And continue down the line? (Those numbers were made up)

Right.  Everyone had a random 25% (close enough) chance of random.org assigning them a scum role.  So, before you even read a post, your score for everyone (except yourself) would have been 25%.

Now, after the game has been going on for all this time, you adjust that number up or down based.  The actual chances of the rolls stay at 25%, obviously, but for the sake of this exercise, you can show how strong your read is relative to the "null" word we use all the time.  Null = 25%.

eHal (or eHunt?) used to do this all the time, and he'd be quite precise about it.  32.17% and stuff like that.

Depending on how your full gamut turns out, 20% could be a very strong town read.  I mean, it's only 5% off null, but it's 20% of the possible reduction.

It isn't worth doing yourself, but for me, a few (not made up):

Lekkit: 15%
2.7: 21%
yuma: 22%
Robz: 28%
faust: 100%

[yuma]

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

I like this idea. The actual percentage is about 27%, but that hardly matters. I think we should do this, I think it's a better form of popsquiz.

I like the idea of getting people to put their reads out, but I don't like the idea of forcing them to do it a certain style. I for one won't be putting percentages onto my reads... why? Because they would be completely arbitrary... I don't think like that and wouldn't have meaning but instead would have meaning attached to them by others that wasn't intended....

Let people scum-hunt the way they want to. Call out those who aren't at all, but let others do it how they want to...

Hey, it was just an idea to get people talking, putting down reads for the record, etc.  Clearly it didn't work, as the day just stagnated anyway.  At least I tried.

I appreciate the concept, but I think whether or not people put down stuff is more important than how. Just because people didn't follow your lead doesn't mean their reads aren't valid. But I agree, people didn't do anything. So let's call out those people. Would you be willing to go back and look at who those people are?

PS: ash is reading more and more town to me. He reminds me of me in Bankers where I was just overly frustrated like the whole game with everyone and everything about it. I think this is actually quite difficult to fake this (sorry if I am using words that offend here ash, but I did feel this way about myself in Bankers and like I said you remind me of that here) righteous indignation, disgust with town and despair of ever getting anyone to listen to me... so yeah, getting a stronger town read on ash now.

[yuma]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

Bolded that for you.

and your point is?

[2.71828.....]

I might do that tomorrow. Bed for now.

39 hours to deadline

PPE: 2

[mail-mi]

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

Bolded that for you.

and your point is?

it was only semi-serious.

[ashersky]

We're looking for one of the following, right?

2-man mafia team
2-man mafia team + 1 SK
3-man mafia team
3-man mafia team + 1 SK

So we're searching for 2, 3, or 4 scum out of 13 total players.

The chance of any one player being scum, without a post being made, is 2/12, 3/12, or 4/12, from my perspective as town.  That means 17%, 25%, or 33%, basically.

25% is the middle, there, and a fair assessment, since the chances are 2, 3, 3, and 4.

So, if everyone starts out at 25% chance, we can assign a number higher or lower than than for our reads, eHalcyon-style.

How do people feel about doing that?

Here's my idea post at #609.  Disregarding the format in which is was posted, people who actually provided reads/popsquizes/etc. are:

2.7, mail-mi, Robz (lamely), yuma, 2.7 (again)

So FOS at everyone else.  Which, unfortunately, is EVERYONE else.


I want to point out that, since #609, chairs has literally posted once, and it was to vote for mail-mi without a reason.

That's a lynch I'd get behind for sure.

[mail-mi]

vote: chairs better than Eevee IMO (and no this isn't just OMGUS, he has about the same number of posts as eevee but has less content and his vote was for no reason other than a poorly-worded sheep of volt and ash.)

[ashersky]

vote: chairs better than Eevee IMO (and no this isn't just OMGUS, he has about the same number of posts as eevee but has less content and his vote was for no reason other than a poorly-worded sheep of volt and ash.)

I don't think you mean ash.  I've not said a thing about you, specifically, and I didn't vote for you.

[mail-mi]

I want to point out that, since #609, chairs has literally posted once, and it was to vote for mail-mi without a reason.

That's a lynch I'd get behind for sure.

I just looked, and it was for liopoil not me.

This is the post, and it was before 609, and yes it was you and volt:

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

[mail-mi]

This is the post, and it was before 609, and yes it was you and volt:

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

this in response to ash's 744

[ashersky]

This is the post, and it was before 609, and yes it was you and volt:

If there's one thing that I think both Voltaire and ashersky (the pair of whom I think contains at most 1 scum) can agree on, it's that we should vote: mail-mi.

this in response to ash's 744

Chairs said that, though, not me.  Not sure why he assumed I'd agree with him on it.  Did I say we should lynch you?  I don't recall.  In my most recent reads list, you definitely weren't in the scumreads section.

[faust]

vote: chairs better than Eevee IMO (and no this isn't just OMGUS, he has about the same number of posts as eevee but has less content and his vote was for no reason other than a poorly-worded sheep of volt and ash.)

vote: mail-mi

You think chairs is a good lynch, fine. But not addressing the reasons everyone has not to lynch him? Scummy.

[faust]

I'll give you some percentages if you want:

Voltaire - 37%
Robz888 - 17%
mail-mi - 40%
Chairs - 36%
Ashersky - 42%
Yuma - 24%
Ichimaru Gin - 27%
Lekkit - 20%
Liopoil - 32%
Teproc - 22%
2.7 - 29%
Eevee - 31%
Faust - 0%

[faust]

The above percentages are the chances that each player is scum, in case that wasn't clear.

[faust]

Lekkit: 15%
2.7: 21%
yuma: 22%
Robz: 28%
faust: 100%

The fact that you're still clinging onto the "faust is 100% scum" thing seems scummy to me. Town I think, even town!ashersky, would have had some kind of doubts (even if it only drop to, I don't know, 91%). But scum might think "I put the 100% out there, I need to stick to it".

[Lekkit]

ashersky, why are you so convinced that faust is 100% scum? And if you're so sure, why haven't you tried to get other people voting for him? ("Vote faust, gys! He's scum!" Isn't really trying) Why haven't you pressured him to prove his scummyness?

1. Voltaire - 40
2. Robz888 - 30
3. mail-mi - 25
4. Chairs - 32,5 (But don't want to lynch him)
5. Ashersky - 30
6. Yuma - 15
7. Ichimaru Gin - 30
8. Lekkit - 0
9. Liopoil - 25
10. Teproc - 25
11. 2.7 - 10
12. Eevee - 30
13. Faust - 30

I tend to read everyone as scummy. At this point I think a wagon is more important than lynching my top scum read. We don't have very much to go on, and we won't have much more tomorrow if we nolynch today. So to summarize, I prefer to lynch: Voltaire, Robz, ashersky, Ichimaru Gin, Eeevee or faust. Tomorrow IRL I'd probably be down with voting those that I don't really have an opinion on, but I wouldn't vote for anyone that's below 25, which is yuma, me and 2.7.

Also, I'm a guy and prefer to be called he but won't be offended by she (but probably confused).

[ashersky]

I'll give you some percentages if you want:

Voltaire - 37%
Robz888 - 17%
mail-mi - 40%
Chairs - 36%
Ashersky - 42%
Yuma - 24%
Ichimaru Gin - 27%
Lekkit - 20%
Liopoil - 32%
Teproc - 22%
2.7 - 29%
Eevee - 31%
Faust - 0%

8 scum reads.  Nice.  Really narrowed it down there.

Back to vote: faust if I wasn't already.

[Teproc]

Let's do a popsquiz then. I'll point out, ash, that while I didn't do a reads or whatever after you asked, I had done one just before (the one where I end up voting 2.7), so I didn't exactly feel the need to. The percentages thing doesn't speak to me at all because I hate math, so I'll just do it the traditional way :

Won't lynch : chairs, ash, Ichimaru, Lekkit, Voltaire
Prefer not to lynch : yuma, Robz, faust
Might lynch : liopoil, Eevee
Lynch ! 2.7, mail-mi

mail-mi's latest posts are really scummy to me, especially calling out (twice) the "biais" Voltaire has against him. I'm sure it used to be true but dude, Voltaire was the guy who kept defending you in GoT and almost got lynched for it (among other things). When your own partner decided to have a scum read on you for distancing purposes (which worked marvelously I should add), Voltaire was among the guys who tried to make him see you weren't scum !

And 2.7's posts kept getting scummier and scummier to me until recently. I'll elaborate when I have more time, but I'm very comfortable with my vote on him.

PPE : Lekkit, ash has been pressuring faust. Saying you're 100% sure and calling out everybody not voting for faust counts as pressuring in my book.

[Eevee]

I really don't see a better lynch than liopoil.

Robz, chairs and ichimaru are as likely to flip scum, but robz is nightkilled a lot, most of you think chars is either pr or mafia (I disagree, but I guess that's more likely) and ichimaru is new.
null on teproc, don't really see any reason to advocate his lynch over lio, same for lekkit whose case on Voltaire I agree makes him more towny. e has been posting more and is putting himself out there in a way I think is towny. faust-ash situation I think might very well resolve on it's
own, and I'm town so that's not really good. Reads are muddy still, but they'll get better fast if we keep the game moving.

I try to have my voting history / my reads speak for my towniness - I think that's the hardest thing for scum to manipulate. Obviously that's not very helpul day 1 before the first flip,
so just trying to survive that.

[faust]

8 scum reads.  Nice.  Really narrowed it down there.

Back to vote: faust if I wasn't already.

*sigh*

Now without percentages because percentages don't really tell anything:

Won't lynch: Voltaire, Robz, chairs, Lekkit
Prefer not to lynch: yuma, Teproc, Ichimaru
Would lynch: e, Eevee, liopoil
Lynch!: mail-mi, ashersky

Narrowed down enough for you?

[faust]

I really don't see a better lynch than liopoil.

Robz, chairs and ichimaru are as likely to flip scum, but robz is nightkilled a lot, most of you think chars is either pr or mafia (I disagree, but I guess that's more likely) and ichimaru is new.
null on teproc, don't really see any reason to advocate his lynch over lio, same for lekkit whose case on Voltaire I agree makes him more towny. e has been posting more and is putting himself out there in a way I think is towny. faust-ash situation I think might very well resolve on it's
own, and I'm town so that's not really good. Reads are muddy still, but they'll get better fast if we keep the game moving.

I try to have my voting history / my reads speak for my towniness - I think that's the hardest thing for scum to manipulate. Obviously that's not very helpul day 1 before the first flip,
so just trying to survive that.

What about mail-mi and yuma?

[Eevee]

Well, when I reread mailmi, he seemed scummier at first, but more recently he has made some posts with lighhearted jokes that read to me as someone who isn't nervous or forcing their contributions. yuma had the longer vla, hasn't maybe quite been the leader I'd expect him to, but then again it's kind of hard when you miss a good chunk of the day. yuma too is often nightkilled, he isn't a very good day 1 lynch regardless.

[2.71828.....]

From the reads that I have seen recently (specific post I used hyperlinked):

Faust mail-mi ashersky

Teproc 2.7 mail-mi

Lekkit Voltaire Chairs

Ashersky Faust Robz Yuma

2.7 liopoil eevee mail-mi faust*

yuma liopoil eevee 2.7 mail-mi

mail-mi Voltaire liopoil

mail-mi - 4
liopoil - 3
2.7, Voltaire, Faust, and Eevee - 2

not "voting"- liopoil, eevee, Ichimaru, Robz, Chairs, Voltaire

*does not appear as a candidate in the post I linked, but I still want him on this list as a viable candidate for my vote D1 because I am willing to go back to my Faust vote, though I prefer not to at this point.  LALL

[2.71828.....]

From the reads that I have seen recently (specific post I used hyperlinked):

Faust mail-mi ashersky

Teproc 2.7 mail-mi

Lekkit Voltaire Chairs

Ashersky Faust Robz Yuma

2.7 liopoil eevee mail-mi faust*

yuma liopoil eevee 2.7 mail-mi

mail-mi Voltaire liopoil

mail-mi - 4
liopoil - 3
2.7, Voltaire, Faust, and Eevee - 2

not "voting"- liopoil, eevee, Ichimaru, Robz, Chairs, Voltaire

*does not appear as a candidate in the post I linked, but I still want him on this list as a viable candidate for my vote D1 because I am willing to go back to my Faust vote, though I prefer not to at this point.  LALL

Looking back Eevee didn't necessarily give a formatted reads post that was easy to spot (I was just skimming) but basically said liopoil, Robz, Chairs, Ichimaru.  I will give him credit for that. 

so

mail-mi, liopoil - 4
Robz, Chairs, 2.7, Voltaire, Faust, and Eevee - 2


not "voting"- liopoil, Ichimaru, Robz, Chairs, Voltaire

[chairs]

Sorry, yuma.  I got in trouble at work so I can't work-post as much anymore, and my live-in ladyfriend is still... awkward, when it comes to having me-doing-my-stuff time.  I'm used to a schedule that I haven't been able to really find again because she wants to, you know, actually have me pay attention to her.  Silly, I know!

[2.71828.....]

Sorry, yuma.  I got in trouble at work so I can't work-post as much anymore, and my live-in ladyfriend is still... awkward, when it comes to having me-doing-my-stuff time.  I'm used to a schedule that I haven't been able to really find again because she wants to, you know, actually have me pay attention to her.  Silly, I know!

What! not being able to post at work!  Terrible.  (my post count will probably go down over the holidays because I am leaving work, and cant sit here at my computer all day)

[liopoil]

the main point of the percentages is to quantify it, to precisely express how confident you feel about your reads. "I really think player x is scum" means different things from different people. "player x I think has a 45% chance of flipping scum" means the same thing from everyone.

ash, are you completely serious about being 100% on faust? Is it not an exaggeration at all?

because if he is serious, that means that if ashersky is town, faust is scum. And if faust is town, it means ashersky is scum. If someone is actually 100% sure somebody else is scum, that means we should lynch one of those two players. It's like a cop claim w/guilty result or some equivalent.

So I am assuming that ashersky is not serious.

For me (note: 27% is null):

liopoil: 0%
voltaire: 16%
ashersky: 18.5%
chairs: 21%
faust: 24%
yuma: 25.5%
robz888: 26%
lekkit, ichimaru, mail-mi: 28%
Teproc: 30%
e: 31%
eevee: 34%

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.11

怒而挠之

2.7... (2): Teproc, yuma
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, faust
Voltaire (1):Lekkit
Eevee (3): Robz888, liopoil, 2.7....
liopoil (3): Eevee，chairs, Ichimaru Gin
chairs (1): mail-mi
faust (1): ashersky

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[2.71828.....]

updated

Faust mail-mi ashersky

Teproc 2.7 mail-mi

Lekkit Voltaire Chairs

Ashersky Faust Robz Yuma

2.7 liopoil eevee mail-mi faust

yuma liopoil eevee 2.7 mail-mi

mail-mi Voltaire liopoil

Eevee liopoil robz chairs Ichimaru

liopoil eevee 2.7 teproc

mail-mi, liopoil - 4
2.7, eevee - 3
Voltaire, Faust, chairs - 2

not "voting"- Ichimaru, Robz, Chairs, Voltaire

I will work on a percentage chart for myself shortly.

[Teproc]

the main point of the percentages is to quantify it, to precisely express how confident you feel about your reads. "I really think player x is scum" means different things from different people. "player x I think has a 45% chance of flipping scum" means the same thing from everyone.

Quantifying it only has value in so far as it translates into actual game actions, ie willingness to lynch.

Also I'm dumb and confused and I was about to ask why you had a town read on Eevee 

Is what 2.7 is doing pro-town ? Figuring out who is lynchable is very valuable to scum. I guess it can be pro-town when we're close to deadline but confirmation bias makes me find it scummy, so I'd like to know what others think.

[Voltaire]

Is what 2.7 is doing pro-town ? Figuring out who is lynchable is very valuable to scum. I guess it can be pro-town when we're close to deadline but confirmation bias makes me find it scummy, so I'd like to know what others think.

It cuts both ways.

I'm willing to lynch: mail-mi, Eevee, lio, ashersky, 2.7, in that order I think.

[2.71828.....]

I am using 27% as null because I guess that is more precise.

liopoil: 30% - His reaction to the wagon that developed on him has been to contribute more.  which is good. Still slightly scummy in my book.
voltaire: 22% - Active, useful.  Lean town
ashersky: 27% - Absolutely crazy D1.  Did some stuff pushing the Faust lynch that I am uncomfortable with and I was on that "wagon."  I think someone said somewhere that Ash will do just about anything, so "strange" behavior is a null tell.
chairs: 29% - His absence was worrying, but getting into additional trouble at work is not worth posting in the game. 
faust: 40% - His response to the case against him has been decent, but not great in my opinion.  It is really unfortunate that no one joined to at least make a wagon of it.  Initial wagons rarely work people, and he probably would not have gotten lynched right away.  But we would at least have a wagon to analyze. And he would have had more pressure on him which might have elicited a different/better response from him and others.  I mean, a larger wagon got going on liopoil because Robz was like, "meh, liopoil is behaving like Toy Story so I will vote him."  And then everyone sheeped and sheeped and sheeped.
yuma: 22% - Active, helpful.  Lean town
robz888: 27% - Not Active.  Started the thing on liopoil.  Again.  Not active.  I don't think scum!robz would be as quiet as he is here.  But still not enough to really make me think he is town.  null
lekkit: 24% - His response to my vote was good.  He has been contributing.  Slight town
ichimaru: 27% - null.  He has done some things that I find a little disconcerting, but he is new and I do not know if that is disconcerting!town or disconcerting!scum. 
mail-mi: 33% - He has not been very active, but that is a lot of people.  His "If mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game" post makes me lean a little scum.  But would scum really post that?  WIFOM
Teproc: 22% - Useful, active.  towny for now
e: 0% - town.  of course
eevee: 35% - His laissez faire approach to D1 and then him posting to say that "if you keep me around I will be more useful I promise" rubs me the wrong way a bit

Take aways:  It has been tough to get really strong reads today.  All my scum reads are based on the slightest of things. 

Would lynch (first choice to last choice): Faust, Eevee, mail-mi, liopoil.

I am currently voting Eevee because I think that is a more productive vote at the moment.

[Teproc]

Is what 2.7 is doing pro-town ? Figuring out who is lynchable is very valuable to scum. I guess it can be pro-town when we're close to deadline but confirmation bias makes me find it scummy, so I'd like to know what others think.

It cuts both ways.

What do you mean ?

[Voltaire]

Is what 2.7 is doing pro-town ? Figuring out who is lynchable is very valuable to scum. I guess it can be pro-town when we're close to deadline but confirmation bias makes me find it scummy, so I'd like to know what others think.

It cuts both ways.

What do you mean ?

It can be pro- or anti- town, and I'm pretty sure I have seen both town and scum do it.

[Lekkit]

It's better to lynch than not to lynch. And we can't seem to agree on a lynch.

[Voltaire]

It's better to lynch than not to lynch. And we can't seem to agree on a lynch.

OK. Let's look a this.

2.7... (2): Teproc, yuma
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, faust
Voltaire (1):Lekkit
Eevee (3): Robz888, liopoil, 2.7....
liopoil (3): Eevee，chairs, Ichimaru Gin
chairs (1): mail-mi
faust (1): ashersky

Everyone except for chairs seems to get a decent amount of support. I think mail-mi needs to move his vote and everyone else is being reasonable with where they stand.

[Voltaire]

Everyone except for chairs seems to get a decent amount of support. I think mail-mi needs to move his vote and everyone else is being reasonable with where they stand.

I mean, ash should move his too, but I don't expect that to happen.

[Voltaire]

Everyone except for chairs seems to get a decent amount of support. I think mail-mi needs to move his vote and everyone else is being reasonable with where they stand.

I mean, ash should move his too, but I don't expect that to happen.

Actually, I'd think Lekkit's vote on me should probably move too. I know I'm your preferred lynch, Lekkit, but in order to lynch not everyone can have their preferred lynch.

So mail-mi, ash, Lekkit to move votes and let's take a look at where we are, I think.

[Ichimaru Gin]

It's better to lynch than not to lynch. And we can't seem to agree on a lynch.

Strongly agree with this one. I'm willing to move my vote to someone else (Eevee?), because now a Liopoil lynch is looking non-viable to me. Looking at the vote count, it's just kinda strange. There's little mini-cases on like a bunch of people, but nothing that really jumps out to me. It just seems like everyone's heading in their own direction.

PPE: This sounds like a good plan.

[mail-mi]

vote: liopoil >= chairs > Eevee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mail-mi

[Voltaire]

vote: liopoil >= chairs > Eevee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mail-mi

What about e?

[liopoil]

vote: liopoil >= chairs > Eevee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mail-mi

why me over eevee?

actually now that I think about it I'm not seeing why people would think I'm a better lynch than eevee... just because of toy story?

[liopoil]

ugh, not even sure I like an eevee lynch now... because knowing that I'm town, he could just be in the same boat as me. I'm having trouble seeing how we could lynch scum today. random lynch minus chairs? Not a good idea, but honestly, it's not much worse than what we're doing now.

[2.71828.....]

Ok.  I am going to do something crazy. 

vote: chairs

Yes, I get that he could be a PR.  I get that.  I saw it as soon as Voltaire mentioned the secret case before he had to explain it to the whole world

But

he could also be scum. (or the SK)

JK9++ could have up to 7(!) town PRs.  that is a lot.  Chairs could also be our only PR.  Or he could be one of many.  We could have a SK.  We might not.  Which is why JK9++ is impossible to "solve" D1.  Which will make it super fun later on, but right now is kind of annoying since we don't know anything.

However, I am looking at viable lynches and who we will actually learn something about going into D2.  We will learn stuff about chairs.  I also think we have the votes to pull it off.

I believe mail-mi, Ashersky, Lekkit, Eevee, myself will all vote chairs.  The interesting thing is that this basically is almost all of everyone's scum reads (except liopoil).  So this is also intriguing if he does flip scum.  Now, if he flips town PR we will all feel bad and have nice little accusations thrown at us.

But the point is, we can learn more from a chairs lynch than any other lynch right now.

[Voltaire]

ugh, not even sure I like an eevee lynch now... because knowing that I'm town, he could just be in the same boat as me. I'm having trouble seeing how we could lynch scum today. random lynch minus chairs? Not a good idea, but honestly, it's not much worse than what we're doing now.

I am more or less ok random lynching from within my own narrowed pool. Do you really think everyone but chairs has an equal chance of being scum?

[faust]

Ok.  I am going to do something crazy. 

vote: chairs

Yes, I get that he could be a PR.  I get that.  I saw it as soon as Voltaire mentioned the secret case before he had to explain it to the whole world

But

he could also be scum. (or the SK)

JK9++ could have up to 7(!) town PRs.  that is a lot.  Chairs could also be our only PR.  Or he could be one of many.  We could have a SK.  We might not.  Which is why JK9++ is impossible to "solve" D1.  Which will make it super fun later on, but right now is kind of annoying since we don't know anything.

However, I am looking at viable lynches and who we will actually learn something about going into D2.  We will learn stuff about chairs.  I also think we have the votes to pull it off.

I believe mail-mi, Ashersky, Lekkit, Eevee, myself will all vote chairs.  The interesting thing is that this basically is almost all of everyone's scum reads (except liopoil).  So this is also intriguing if he does flip scum.  Now, if he flips town PR we will all feel bad and have nice little accusations thrown at us.

But the point is, we can learn more from a chairs lynch than any other lynch right now.

You are correct, this is crazy.

[2.71828.....]

crazy, maybe.  the right move right now?  I think yes. 

Crazy setup=crazy play

[2.71828.....]

But what do you think about my case that we can actually learn something from this flip?

I mean, if liopoil or mail-mi or eevee flip scum, great.  If not, we do not learn anything.  At all.

[Lekkit]

2.7, I'm actually pretty sure I don't want to lynch chairs today. I mean I'd lynch him over you, me, yuma or no lynch, but I'd still prefer another lynch.

Also, Voltaire is totally right that I should switch my vote. Vote: faust

[Voltaire]

2.7, I'm actually pretty sure I don't want to lynch chairs today. I mean I'd lynch him over you, me, yuma or no lynch, but I'd still prefer another lynch.

Also, Voltaire is totally right that I should switch my vote. Vote: faust

That appears to be another non-viable candidate. Who besides you and ash wants to lynch faust?

[2.71828.....]

2.7, I'm actually pretty sure I don't want to lynch chairs today. I mean I'd lynch him over you, me, yuma or no lynch, but I'd still prefer another lynch.

Also, Voltaire is totally right that I should switch my vote. Vote: faust

That appears to be another non-viable candidate. Who besides you and ash wants to lynch faust?

I will join up to lynch faust

[Teproc]

I don't see how we learn more from a chairs PR than any other. And the fact that every scum read anyone has is ready to vote for chairs is a good thing... why exactly ?

I agree that we won't learn as much from the flips if people go "oh well, might as well lynch Eevee cause why not". But the solution to that is not to lynch chairs, it's to stop with the random votes.

[Voltaire]

And I will once again throw mail-mi out there. A couple people not voting him have said "yeah, I guess he is/was scummy". Vote him!

[Teproc]

I will switch to mail-mi if he looks like he's a more plausible lynch when we get close to the deadline (for reasons stated above), but I would still rather lynch 2.7 at this point.

[2.71828.....]

ok.  we have 25 hours and 35 minutes to get a lynch before we time out.

I really don't see much happening.  We have a lot of little factions, but no real wagons.  A lot of people seem slightly scummy, but no one to clearly lynch.  I will leave my vote where it is for now, but am willing to switch it to a useful lynch target but not until people have at least weighed in on my chairs thing.

I will be around all morning tomorrow leading up to the deadline, but will probably not be around very much at all the rest of today except to check in and maybe post late tonight some.  I will make sure that my vote is not wasted, and will assist in a lynch at deadline if we need it.  However, if no lynch happens, I hope that everyone will vote their #1 scum read from D1 (not who you think is a good candidate to lynch so you are voting them) so that we can reference it in later days.

[Robz888]

I'll happily lynch Eevee, mail-mi, or liopoil. I would also lynch Lekkit.

I don't think we should lynch chairs today. I see where you are coming from, 2.7, but this sort of thing seems to backfire on town mostly.

[Teproc]

I wouldn't worry too much about no lynch. Worst case scenario we have to rush a lynch in the last hour (that would be bad, we still should try to reach a lynch earlier if we can), but we will lynch someone I think.

[Lekkit]

I'm heading out to watch Desolation of Smaug. I'm not sure I'll be back later tonight. If I'm not I'll be here in something like 15 hours. The downside of being in a different time zone than you americans.

[Robz888]

I wouldn't worry too much about no lynch. Worst case scenario we have to rush a lynch in the last hour (that would be bad, we still should try to reach a lynch earlier if we can), but we will lynch someone I think.

This.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.12

怒而挠之

2.7... (2): Teproc, yuma
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, faust
Eevee (2): Robz888, liopoil
liopoil (4): Eevee，chairs, Ichimaru Gin, mail-mi
chairs (1): 2.7....
faust (2): ashersky, Lekkit

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[ashersky]

I wouldn't worry too much about no lynch. Worst case scenario we have to rush a lynch in the last hour (that would be bad, we still should try to reach a lynch earlier if we can), but we will lynch someone I think.

This.

You all forget the "time to claim at L-1" conundrum.

When 2.7 moves his vote, we will have lio at 4 voted and Faust at 3.  Those will be the leading wagons with a day to go.

[liopoil]

Vote: 2.71828.....

Reasons:

I agree with yuma here:

and in his further explanations later.

Also his recent chairs vote, which well, doesn't make much sense from a town standpoint. 1, a chairs lynch is bad 2, chairs isn't suspicious, and 3, there's no way a chairs lynch is happening anyway.

Lastly, it seems that an eevee lynch isn't happening. the other clear options are faust and me, and I don't like either of those options. E now is at 3 votes and I think has a chance of happening, and is suspicious.

[Voltaire]

3, there's no way a chairs lynch is happening anyway.

Lastly, it seems that an eevee lynch isn't happening. the other clear options are faust and me, and I don't like either of those options. E now is at 3 votes and I think has a chance of happening, and is suspicious.

I am very, very tempted to vote for e, but the one thing holding me back is your 3. Why would e, as scum, do something as suspicious/crazy as vote for chairs (even if that's good for scum) when it's clear chairs isn't going through?

Also, mail-mi is an option. He may only have two votes but other people have called him scummy as well.

[Teproc]

3, there's no way a chairs lynch is happening anyway.

Lastly, it seems that an eevee lynch isn't happening. the other clear options are faust and me, and I don't like either of those options. E now is at 3 votes and I think has a chance of happening, and is suspicious.

I am very, very tempted to vote for e, but the one thing holding me back is your 3. Why would e, as scum, do something as suspicious/crazy as vote for chairs (even if that's good for scum) when it's clear chairs isn't going through?

Also, mail-mi is an option. He may only have two votes but other people have called him scummy as well.

Well, we don't know what scum!e is like (presumably, insert [REDACTED] caveat), and I don't think town!e has done stuff like this, has he ?

[Voltaire]

Well, we don't know what scum!e is like (presumably, insert [REDACTED] caveat), and I don't think town!e has done stuff like this, has he ?

But town!e was doing obv!scum stuff in Toy Story that only obv!town actually does. Hence why I (correctly) called him "scum's ideal mislynch" and turned out to be right. This does feel different, but I don't see a scum narrative for him posting what lio identifies as "3".

[faust]

But what do you think about my case that we can actually learn something from this flip?

I mean, if liopoil or mail-mi or eevee flip scum, great.  If not, we do not learn anything.  At all.

Sure, if he's a PR, we'll learn that he's a PR, which says something about the setup. That would be nice... except it means our PR is dead afterwards! If chairs truly is a PR, he will have to produce results of some sort as the game moves on, so we also get more information if we leave him alive. And if he fakes results, we can call him out sooner or later.

[faust]

Vote: 2.71828.....

Reasons:

I agree with yuma here:

and in his further explanations later.

Also his recent chairs vote, which well, doesn't make much sense from a town standpoint. 1, a chairs lynch is bad 2, chairs isn't suspicious, and 3, there's no way a chairs lynch is happening anyway.

Lastly, it seems that an eevee lynch isn't happening. the other clear options are faust and me, and I don't like either of those options. E now is at 3 votes and I think has a chance of happening, and is suspicious.

I agree with Voltaire that point 3 in this case is more of a town read for e.

[Robz888]

I wouldn't worry too much about no lynch. Worst case scenario we have to rush a lynch in the last hour (that would be bad, we still should try to reach a lynch earlier if we can), but we will lynch someone I think.

This.

You all forget the "time to claim at L-1" conundrum.

When 2.7 moves his vote, we will have lio at 4 voted and Faust at 3.  Those will be the leading wagons with a day to go.

I guess I did forget that, although at this point it might just be, "L-1" followed by "claim" followed by "I don't believe you! Lynch!"

Well who should I vote for, what is the count.

[Robz888]

I think I'd rather lynch Eevee than liopoil, though. I think Eevee did just enough to--in his view--not get lynched, whereas liopoil went like above and beyond.

[faust]

This is leading nowhere.

I am Lu Meng, the Vengeful. If you lynch me today, I will shoot ashersky.

[ashersky]

This is leading nowhere.

I am Lu Meng, the Vengeful. If you lynch me today, I will shoot ashersky.

Worst fakeclaim ever, I'm pretty sure.

This is JK9++.  There are no "vengeful" roles.  That's pretty RMM/BM.  Mafiascum isn't loading currently, for some reason, so I can't confirm 100%, but I mean, vengeful?  I'll check when it loads.

This should confirm faust as scum for everyone else.

[Voltaire]

This is leading nowhere.

I am Lu Meng, the Vengeful. If you lynch me today, I will shoot ashersky.

Oh! Hmm. I disagree that it was leading nowhere. Why the claim?

MafiaScum wiki won't load for me, so I have no idea what this means about the setup if this is true.

[Voltaire]

This is leading nowhere.

I am Lu Meng, the Vengeful. If you lynch me today, I will shoot ashersky.

Worst fakeclaim ever, I'm pretty sure.

This is JK9++.  There are no "vengeful" roles.  That's pretty RMM/BM.  Mafiascum isn't loading currently, for some reason, so I can't confirm 100%, but I mean, vengeful?  I'll check when it loads.

This should confirm faust as scum for everyone else.

I am so close to voting you, ash. JK9++ has vengeful roles.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Phone post:

Isn't claiming vengeful normally something that gets you lynched?
So why would Faust claim it?
It's almost like he wants to get lynched.
The whole "this is going nowhere" thing kinda cinches if for me

[Ichimaru Gin]

Missed voltaires post. But yeah, it won't load for me either.

[faust]

Phone post:

Isn't claiming vengeful normally something that gets you lynched?
So why would Faust claim it?
It's almost like he wants to get lynched.
The whole "this is going nowhere" thing kinda cinches if for me

Well, yes, I don't really mind if you lynch me today. I think that way, my role may be of some use: I can kill scum (or at least try to).

[Voltaire]

Phone post:

Isn't claiming vengeful normally something that gets you lynched?
So why would Faust claim it?
It's almost like he wants to get lynched.
The whole "this is going nowhere" thing kinda cinches if for me

Well, yes, I don't really mind if you lynch me today. I think that way, my role may be of some use: I can kill scum (or at least try to).

The risk with this is that ash is town and we've given scum a free extra kill D1.

[faust]

This is leading nowhere.

I am Lu Meng, the Vengeful. If you lynch me today, I will shoot ashersky.

Oh! Hmm. I disagree that it was leading nowhere. Why the claim?

MafiaScum wiki won't load for me, so I have no idea what this means about the setup if this is true.

It doesn't really say anything on the setup, sadly. The only thing to be concluded from this is that we have 1 K letter (because that would mean Vengeful OR Vigilante).

[faust]

Phone post:

Isn't claiming vengeful normally something that gets you lynched?
So why would Faust claim it?
It's almost like he wants to get lynched.
The whole "this is going nowhere" thing kinda cinches if for me

Well, yes, I don't really mind if you lynch me today. I think that way, my role may be of some use: I can kill scum (or at least try to).

The risk with this is that ash is town and we've given scum a free extra kill D1.

Correct. This is why I wanted to get it out before you guys decide to randomly lynch me before I can say another word (has happened before). Town should know what they're dealing with.

[Voltaire]

Well, I for one lean towards believing faust. Scum can't kill him without him getting to use his Vengeful (I think?) so I see no problem letting him live. I thought he was more likely town anyway.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Phone post:

Isn't claiming vengeful normally something that gets you lynched?
So why would Faust claim it?
It's almost like he wants to get lynched.
The whole "this is going nowhere" thing kinda cinches if for me

Well, yes, I don't really mind if you lynch me today. I think that way, my role may be of some use: I can kill scum (or at least try to).

The risk with this is that ash is town and we've given scum a free extra kill D1.

Correct. This is why I wanted to get it out before you guys decide to randomly lynch me before I can say another word (has happened before). Town should know what they're dealing with.

So it's like your holding ash's life ransom, pending your lynch?

[ashersky]

If faust is telling the truth and this set-up actually uses Vengeful, that's the absolute go-to fakeclaim for scum if they're being lynched.  It keeps you from being lynched most of the time.  Vengeful fits scum way better than town anyway.

I have no fear of being killed by faust if he's lynched.  He's lying.

[ashersky]

Well, I for one lean towards believing faust. Scum can't kill him without him getting to use his Vengeful (I think?) so I see no problem letting him live. I thought he was more likely town anyway.

Vengeful only works on lynch, not NK.

[2.71828.....]

Yes, the setup has vengeful, and that was a terrible claim. We were nowhere near lynching you Faust

[ashersky]

Yes, the setup has vengeful, and that was a terrible claim. We were nowhere near lynching you Faust

Vengeful is so RMM.  But whatevs.  My fault for not reading every line of the JK9++ code, then.  It still won't load.

Vengeful is easily as anti-town as Vigs are.  We're better off killing him.  If he's really town, he should agree NOT to kill anyone with his Vengeful, to be honest.  It's the "vigs shouldn't shoot N1" argument.  Vengefuls shouldn't kill before like D3.

[2.71828.....]

I mean, that was a terrible D1 claim. There is a reason vigs don't shoot N1- you probably hit town. Same for vengeful. You will probably hit town.

[Robz888]

I'm more likely to think faust is scum post-claim. Vengeful is absolutely the thing scum would claim here. They actually want to proactively claim that if they can, probably. And faust wasn't in any danger, was he? I have to check. If he really, really isn't in any danger, I may actually want to lynch him after all. Yeah.

[Robz888]

Yeah, there were only two people voting for him. So he had no reason to claim, but did, in order to put out the kind of claim that scum really really wants to make.

Fausr, do you disagree that that's what you did? We really gotta understand you here, man.

[Voltaire]

I'm more likely to think faust is scum post-claim. Vengeful is absolutely the thing scum would claim here. They actually want to proactively claim that if they can, probably. And faust wasn't in any danger, was he? I have to check. If he really, really isn't in any danger, I may actually want to lynch him after all. Yeah.

I'm thinking like Robz about this sorta. Again, what's the scum narrative? I mean, I didn't think faust was scum ahead of time, so I don't want him lynched. But I'd be cool with ash dying. So in an incredibly weird way I'd be ok lynching faust because a possible 1 town/1 scum trade (with a chance of being 1 scum/0 town [though also 2 town]) is not so bad.

Why does scum claim this early exactly?

[2.71828.....]

I say do not lynch Faust right now. There is a good chance he gets NKed because his reads can only get better as time progresses. Worst case: lynch Faust (town) kills ashersky (town) and scum kill [insert name here] (town) and SK kills [insert name here] (town).

Possibly down to 3? Scum and 5 town and 1 SK.

But that is worst case

PPE:3

[Robz888]

So background on Lu Meng: He's a battle commander and strategist for the Wu kingdom. He is the third of four main Wu strategists who all kind of die one after the other. He's known for leading the Wu attack on their former allies, the Shu Kingdom, where the great Shu warrior Guan Yu is killed, leading to a big war between Wu and Shu. In the novel, Guan Yu's ghost kills him (sort of a reverse vengeful thing?). That all happens long after the Red Cliffs, though. At the time of the Red Cliffs battle, he's just sort of not-important Wu commander, and is still under their first strategist.

[2.71828.....]

Vengeful is so RMM.  But whatevs.  My fault for not reading every line of the JK9++ code, then.  It still won't load

There is a possibility of up to 7 town PRs and with 2 mafia PRs. Which is like 9 people with PRs. Which is close to RMM

[Robz888]

I'm more likely to think faust is scum post-claim. Vengeful is absolutely the thing scum would claim here. They actually want to proactively claim that if they can, probably. And faust wasn't in any danger, was he? I have to check. If he really, really isn't in any danger, I may actually want to lynch him after all. Yeah.

I'm thinking like Robz about this sorta. Again, what's the scum narrative? I mean, I didn't think faust was scum ahead of time, so I don't want him lynched. But I'd be cool with ash dying. So in an incredibly weird way I'd be ok lynching faust because a possible 1 town/1 scum trade (with a chance of being 1 scum/0 town [though also 2 town]) is not so bad.

Why does scum claim this early exactly?

Because it would make everyone less likely to want to lynch them, intuitively, I think. I certainly don't want extra night shots, extra night shots kill more townies.

[Robz888]

Yes, the setup has vengeful, and that was a terrible claim. We were nowhere near lynching you Faust

Vengeful is so RMM.  But whatevs.  My fault for not reading every line of the JK9++ code, then.  It still won't load.

Actually, this reads to me like bitterness from a scum person who chose to tunnel someone at random, knowing full well he would never be held accountable for it... except oops, he will be if his target is vengeful.

[ashersky]

Vengeful is so RMM.  But whatevs.  My fault for not reading every line of the JK9++ code, then.  It still won't load

There is a possibility of up to 7 town PRs and with 2 mafia PRs. Which is like 9 people with PRs. Which is close to RMM

I'm not in the "lots of roles = RMM" camp.  I am in the "certain types of roles = RMM" camp.

[Robz888]

Okay I need to know why faust claimed. Why, faust? You weren't going to be lynched. Why claim?

[ashersky]

Yes, the setup has vengeful, and that was a terrible claim. We were nowhere near lynching you Faust

Vengeful is so RMM.  But whatevs.  My fault for not reading every line of the JK9++ code, then.  It still won't load.

Actually, this reads to me like bitterness from a scum person who chose to tunnel someone at random, knowing full well he would never be held accountable for it... except oops, he will be if his target is vengeful.

I haven't unvoted, or moved my vote.  And with his claim, I absolutely refuse to.  Faust is the only lynch today.  He's chosen the absolutely best scum fake claim ever.  It doesn't match his flavor, as you point out.

I am happy to die today if there is vengeful scum in the set-up.

Another reason scum claims Vengeful WITH TARGET is to try to force a claim out of the target.  It's a classic scum rolefish.  "No, don't target me, I'm a PR!!!!" is what faust was hoping to get out of me.

No matter what my role is, I have zero fears of lynching faust.

[ashersky]

Here are the possibilities:

Faust is scum.  One scum dead going into N1.
Faust is truthful town, vengekills ash.  Two town dead going into N1.
Faust is lying town.  One town dead going into N1.



Faust could also easily be the SK, if there is one.

[Robz888]

Lying town is not really a possibility.

[Robz888]

Ash, I agree it's a claim scum makes, but your reaction is REALLY weird to me, I do not know you to sob about RMM aspects.

[ashersky]

Ash, I agree it's a claim scum makes, but your reaction is REALLY weird to me, I do not know you to sob about RMM aspects.

Sob?  Exaggerate much?  And if you were going to pick one player to "overreact" in game, who would it be?

Lying town is not really a possibility.

Go tell that to every recent game we've had on f.ds.  It shouldn't be a possibility (edge cases excepted), but it happens.

[ashersky]

Ash, I agree it's a claim scum makes, but your reaction is REALLY weird to me, I do not know you to sob about RMM aspects.

Mostly, it's just that I'm not that enamored with this set-up, or standard set-ups in general anymore.  I'm much more interested in my own set-ups (and modding them) as well as trying out the inventions of my fellow mods.

[liopoil]

before any of us say anything further regarding the claim, I let's have faust fully explain why he claimed, and why he says he will vengekill ashersky no matter what.

talking more will just give scum!faust ideas.

[liopoil]

3, there's no way a chairs lynch is happening anyway.

Lastly, it seems that an eevee lynch isn't happening. the other clear options are faust and me, and I don't like either of those options. E now is at 3 votes and I think has a chance of happening, and is suspicious.

I am very, very tempted to vote for e, but the one thing holding me back is your 3. Why would e, as scum, do something as suspicious/crazy as vote for chairs (even if that's good for scum) when it's clear chairs isn't going through?

Also, mail-mi is an option. He may only have two votes but other people have called him scummy as well.

I realize mail-mi is an option, but I don't think he's as scummy as e. re: #3, I don't really think it's that weird. He could honestly think that town could be convinced to lynch chairs. He might be trying to fish for chairs' role.

[ashersky]

before any of us say anything further regarding the claim, I let's have faust fully explain why he claimed, and why he says he will vengekill ashersky no matter what.

talking more will just give scum!faust ideas.

Nice thought and all.  But he's disappeared on us.  (He's in Europe, right?  It's getting late there.)

Best to just lynch him, if we're worried about giving too much info to scum.

[Robz888]

That makes sense, lio. I really don't like that faust just claimed and then disappeared. We need cross examination!

[Robz888]

He's still online though.

[Robz888]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

[ashersky]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

+1

[Voltaire]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

[ashersky]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

How many V combos include Vengeful as an option?

[Robz888]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

I have a possible idea about that, but if I explain it before faust comes back that would defeat the purpose.

[Voltaire]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

I have a possible idea about that, but if I explain it before faust comes back that would defeat the purpose.

Then don't.

[ashersky]

He's just going to let the day run out without returning to post anything.  That's what scum does.

[liopoil]

as it happens, I had the JK9++ wiki page open before it went down! should I put the relevant info in here?

[2.71828.....]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

How many V combos include Vengeful as an option?

they are actually "K" combos according to the wiki, which is why he said K. I believe if we rolled 1 K it is 50/50 for vengeful/ vig.  Multiple K rolls force a vengeful

[Robz888]

Faust? Where are you? You actually could possibly sort of acquit yourself if you show up and answer some questions...

[2.71828.....]

as it happens, I had the JK9++ wiki page open before it went down! should I put the relevant info in here?

that would be great

[Robz888]

as it happens, I had the JK9++ wiki page open before it went down! should I put the relevant info in here?

NO

[Robz888]

Not yet at least.

[liopoil]

okay

not sure exactly what your theory is, but sure.

what e said about rolling K is incorrect

[ashersky]

as it happens, I had the JK9++ wiki page open before it went down! should I put the relevant info in here?

NO

Yeah, if faust does NOT post before mafiascum comes back up, that's even MORE damning evidence against him.

[Robz888]

Actually... I don't know if what I'm thinking about is legal... maybe that information is supposed to just be public at all times?

[liopoil]

Actually... I don't know if what I'm thinking about is legal... maybe that information is supposed to just be public at all times?

yeah, probably. good question.

faust viewed the thread 3 minutes ago!

[2.71828.....]

okay

not sure exactly what your theory is, but sure.

what e said about rolling K is incorrect

[joke] so that makes me an IC now, right?[/joke]

[2.71828.....]

The joke tags are to avoid ambiguity.

[ashersky]

Actually... I don't know if what I'm thinking about is legal... maybe that information is supposed to just be public at all times?

JK9++ is semi-open.  That means all information about HOW the set-up was derived is publically known information (i.e., what all the possible rolls are).

The fact that the website isn't opening right now doesn't change that.  However, it does trap scum into making mistakes, which helps us.  If 2.7 was his scum partner trying to help with the fake claim, he might have just copy/pasted the info into the game.

[liopoil]

The joke tags are to avoid ambiguity.

was this post to avoid ambiguity too?

[Voltaire]

No referencing ongoing games, people!

[liopoil]

robz, do you know how the setup works? just wondering if you do, not asking you to tell us (I know, I can look at the page right now!)

[Robz888]

Actually... I don't know if what I'm thinking about is legal... maybe that information is supposed to just be public at all times?

JK9++ is semi-open.  That means all information about HOW the set-up was derived is publically known information (i.e., what all the possible rolls are).

The fact that the website isn't opening right now doesn't change that.  However, it does trap scum into making mistakes, which helps us.  If 2.7 was his scum partner trying to help with the fake claim, he might have just copy/pasted the info into the game.

Right right right, but I feel a little dirty getting him this way, as it's looking clearer and clearer like that's exactly what's happening here.

[Voltaire]

Right right right, but I feel a little dirty getting him this way, as it's looking clearer and clearer like that's exactly what's happening here.

But why can't he explain why he claimed? That wouldn't involve him saying anything about the setup.

[Robz888]

robz, do you know how the setup works? just wondering if you do, not asking you to tell us (I know, I can look at the page right now!)

I've looked at it, but I couldn't tell you exactly what the letter categories are, and the power distributions in each category, since we're not at the stage where I need to constantly check the setup to verify claims.

[Robz888]

Right right right, but I feel a little dirty getting him this way, as it's looking clearer and clearer like that's exactly what's happening here.

But why can't he explain why he claimed? That wouldn't involve him saying anything about the setup.

Well yeah he could and should, but he should also know some extra details about the V section, probably. Or at least if he DOES know those extra details, it's probably much more likely to be true, since he cant be using mafia scum wiki to help him right now.

[2.71828.....]

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

His flavor is all bad to. Town!e is shu. Town!ash is shu. Scum!Faust is wu.

[2.71828.....]

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

His flavor is all bad to. Town!e is shu. Town!ash is shu. Scum!Faust is wu.

or, he is at least different than us. So we will likely get at least 1 scum for 1 town

[liopoil]

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

His flavor is all bad to. Town!e is shu. Town!ash is shu. Scum!Faust is wu.

or, he is at least different than us. So we will likely get at least 1 scum for 1 town

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

[Robz888]

Yeah both Wu and Shu are the good guys in the Battle of Red Cliffs. They are allies at this point.

[2.71828.....]

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

His flavor is all bad to. Town!e is shu. Town!ash is shu. Scum!Faust is wu.

or, he is at least different than us. So we will likely get at least 1 scum for 1 town

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

oh. Well then. I forgot to go back and look at that. All three of us might be town

[liopoil]

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

I've been ready to vote for faust ever since he claimed, but I'm still waiting for a full explanation.

[Voltaire]

I'm also willing to vote for faust because if I'm wrong and he flips town, I'm a-ok with him shooting ash.

[liopoil]

faust is offline (though I think this is just because of 15 minutes of inativity). let's hope the wiki stays offline for a bit longer...

[2.71828.....]

I'm also willing to vote for faust because if I'm wrong and he flips town, I'm a-ok with him shooting ash.

see I think that will be the death of two town members.

[Robz888]

I will be voting for faust unless we get a great explanation from him. I'm now thinking the most plausible explanation for what just happened is that it was a fake claim gone wrong when he realized mafiascum wiki was down.

[2.71828.....]

I will be voting for faust unless we get a great explanation from him. I'm now thinking the most plausible explanation for what just happened is that it was a fake claim gone wrong when he realized mafiascum wiki was down.

see, he was in no rush to claim though. Our fake claim. Whichever. I think mafiascum being down actually helps his claim. Because if I were to fake claim I would get the info and all my ducks in a row before the claim

[Voltaire]

I will be voting for faust unless we get a great explanation from him. I'm now thinking the most plausible explanation for what just happened is that it was a fake claim gone wrong when he realized mafiascum wiki was down.

see, he was in no rush to claim though. Our fake claim. Whichever. I think mafiascum being down actually helps his claim. Because if I were to fake claim I would get the info and all my ducks in a row before the claim

Hmm hmm hmm. Point. Generically, why claim as scum with only 2 votes D1?

Help me out. Did faust end up being scum in M31? I think so, right? I forget the flips from the end of that game.

[2.71828.....]

I will be voting for faust unless we get a great explanation from him. I'm now thinking the most plausible explanation for what just happened is that it was a fake claim gone wrong when he realized mafiascum wiki was down.

see, he was in no rush to claim though. Our fake claim. Whichever. I think mafiascum being down actually helps his claim. Because if I were to fake claim I would get the info and all my ducks in a row before the claim

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still to town.

My question: do we lynch anti-town behavior? Or do we lynch scum? They are not always the same thing. He is not SK. No way.

[Teproc]

Hmmm. This is not great for me, because I don't think faust is scum and I really don't think ash is scum.

I looked at the setup recently, and if I remember correctly, Vengeful has  50% chance to happen if one K is rolled, and there will always be at least one Vengeful if more than one K is rolled.

Vengeful is probably the go to scum fakeclaim but... I mean, it's a pretty likely role to exist, and I do think his timing makes sense here. I wouldn't have claimed at that point myself, but it makes sense to help narrow the lynch down.

Basically, I think his claim doesn't change anything to his likelihood of being town/scum. But I don't want to lynch him because I believe ash to be town, and I'm not confident either way as to faust's alignment.

[Robz888]

@Voltaire: Yes, faust was scum in M31. I can't easily understand why he claimed now, regardless of whether he is scum or town, and I'd rather hear it from him first before I analyze it.

@2.1: We lynch scum, not anti-town behavior, but I'm not sure which this is. I see zero reason to rule him out as SK, but even bringing that up is premature here.

[Robz888]

Hmmm. This is not great for me, because I don't think faust is scum and I really don't think ash is scum.

I looked at the setup recently, and if I remember correctly, Vengeful has  50% chance to happen if one K is rolled, and there will always be at least one Vengeful if more than one K is rolled.

Vengeful is probably the go to scum fakeclaim but... I mean, it's a pretty likely role to exist, and I do think his timing makes sense here. I wouldn't have claimed at that point myself, but it makes sense to help narrow the lynch down.

Basically, I think his claim doesn't change anything to his likelihood of being town/scum. But I don't want to lynch him because I believe ash to be town, and I'm not confident either way as to faust's alignment.

STOP

[Robz888]

UGH

[Voltaire]

?

[Teproc]

What ? That's pretty much what e had said anyway I think ? What did you want to catch faust on ?

[2.71828.....]

UGH

no one ever listens to robz. Except for that whole liopoil wagon

[Robz888]

If, before the wiki comes back, faust can't identify certain facts about the Vengeful role, for instance how many V's produce it, I will assume he is scum. Let's not give him the answers to the quiz.

[Teproc]

You realize that this would in no way be indicative of his alignment right ? If he is Vengeful, how does he have more info about the setup than if he isn't ?

[Robz888]

You realize that this would in no way be indicative of his alignment right ? If he is Vengeful, how does he have more info about the setup than if he isn't ?

He doesn't, but if he is Vengeful, he probably took a closer look at the V section of the setup than someone who isn't Vengeful. Wouldn't you go check like, "Oh, does this mean there's also a Vigilante? Can there be two Vengefuls?" That sort of thing you probably only check if you are Vengeful.

[Teproc]

I see. But hey, I don't have the setup in front of me, so I could very well be wrong anyway.

[2.71828.....]

I just remembered this post, and since it is from Faust I hope it is ok. I didn't double check his numbers, but I am pretty sure he looked carefully at the setup

By the way, I had too much spare time, so I did some math. Maybe this can be of use.

Probabilities for PRs:

P(there is a Tracker)=63,6%

P(there is a 1-shot Tracker)=22,2%

P(there is a Doctor)=P(there is a Jailkeeper)=31,5%

P(there is a Hider)=49,1%

P(there is a 1-shot Commuter)=13,9%

P(there is a Vengeful)=P(there is a Vigilante)=31,5%

P(there is a Role Cop)=24,6%

P(there is a Gunsmith)=4,1%

P(there is a Mafia Bus Driver)=40,9%

P(there is a Mafia JOAT)=73,0%

P(there is a SK)=50,0%

[Teproc]

Interesting. Pretty sure something is wrong in these numbers.

[liopoil]

I don't know what either one of e and teproc are talking about, I'm looking at the setup right in front of me and I'm it does not say what they think it says.

[Teproc]

faust is offline and won't be online for at least 8 hours (given that it's midnight here). So.... we just wait ? mafiascum is pretty unlikely to be back up anyway by that point.

Note : still unwilling to lynch him.

[EFHW]

Do guys still need mod intervention?  I just signed on, had a message from Robz.

[EFHW]

I'll be back in ~30 min

[Teproc]

I guess it depends on what Robz was asking you... mafiascum is still down, if that matters

[Robz888]

I wanted to make sure my line of inquiry against faust, which relies on a web page being down, is legal, though I assume it is.

[yuma]

I wanted to make sure my line of inquiry against faust, which relies on a web page being down, is legal, though I assume it is.

I personally think it is legal, but am not fully comfortable with it.

This is because I think full setups should be included in the game f.ds thread itself... PMs, details, everything, but that is just a personal preference... I mean... there isn't a rule about withholding information that isn't already given... so I guess there shouldn't be anything wrong with it, but I would encourage future mods to put full setup info--or at least quite a bit of it--into the second page of the thread beforehand (again just a suggestion, not a requirement)

[Lekkit]

I leave you guys alone for a couple of hours and claims and stuff happens. I'm actually happy I left my vote on faust. I'm off for the night. One thing to note is that it's really werid for faust to claim and then just disappear. There's no way you'd do that. Regardless of the honesty of the claim. Especially if you thought you were going to get lynched.

Also, I agree with yuma regarding the mafiascum wiki thing.

[Teproc]

He specifically said in his claim that he was doing it now because he didn't want to be lynched with no chance to respond during the night, which happened to him in both GoT and Toy Story.

[yuma]

I am going to withhold judgement on faust until/if we hear from him. I will not be online during the deadline. I will be at work and unable to post, so hopefully we will hear from him soon.

i will get online before leaving for work--something I generally don't, but I'll get up early just for you guys...

I think I am still comfortable with my vote on 2.7, but want to go through my list of people not excluded from my town list.

[yuma]

and your point is?

it was only semi-serious.

then why mention it at all? the fact that you mentioned it means that you felt it serious enough to include it.

[yuma]

11. 2.7 - 10

but I wouldn't vote for anyone that's below 25, which is yuma, me and 2.7.

If this hasn't been explained I would love one. That is an extremely strong town read if I am to believe your numbers... what is that all about?

[yuma]

Sorry, yuma.  I got in trouble at work so I can't work-post as much anymore, and my live-in ladyfriend is still... awkward, when it comes to having me-doing-my-stuff time.  I'm used to a schedule that I haven't been able to really find again because she wants to, you know, actually have me pay attention to her.  Silly, I know!

don't get in trouble at work or with the ladyfriends, just let us know (in advance preferably!)

[yuma]

Is what 2.7 is doing pro-town ? Figuring out who is lynchable is very valuable to scum. I guess it can be pro-town when we're close to deadline but confirmation bias makes me find it scummy, so I'd like to know what others think.

it is pro-town, but that doesn't make him town. Compiling data the way he is is certainly something scum can do to make themselves look useful and productive. People don't often want to lynch the guy doing all the heavy lifting... and for good reason. It does make me hesitant to lynch him because I know I am not going to be able to do all of that work that he is doing.

There is certainly a town narrative for him doing it as well I should add... he compiled similar data in toy story as town.

[EFHW]

The Day 1 deadline is now 2:20 pm December 19th (instead of 2)  This is so one of us can be present to lock the thread.

[EFHW]

I wanted to make sure my line of inquiry against faust, which relies on a web page being down, is legal, though I assume it is.

That's an interesting question.  I'm sorry, but I don't think I can clarify that issue.  I can consult a more experienced mod if you would like.

[EFHW]

Ok, since the most experienced mods are already playing the game, and Archetype is not around, I looked at the rules and thought about this some more.  1.  The wiki outage affects everyone.  2.  Players are under no obligation to share information they might have.  3.  Guaranteed access to the wiki is not part of the game.  So continue as you are.  If there are issues I haven't considered, I'm willing to revisit the issue.

[liopoil]

faust was active again at 17:22 forum time...

I'll go ahead and Vote: faust now. Worst case scenario his explanation is good and I unvote, so yeah, why not vote now.

[Eevee]

Okay, so the wiki being offline really sucks and honesty I'd prefer if someone just posted all the info. The current situation just feels very unfair to scum.

However, while faust's inactivity could be real life-infused, it clearly is scummy here. I approve of the lynch, all the while knowing my jumping on the wagon will look suspicious to some.

Holding off voting until faust gets a chance to react, because I'll surely be on before the deadline, so why not.

/kickball

[liopoil]

/kickball

?

I know about ehunt's kickball moment thing, but what does this mean?

[ashersky]

/kickball

?

I know about ehunt's kickball moment thing, but what does this mean?

I think it means Eevee is drunk.

[yuma]

Ok, I am not going to have as much time to spend on this as I thought, but will do my best on it specifically focusing on the first four (as well as faust)

From this point I want to try to find scummier players out of: liopoil, eevee, 2.7 and mail-mi and maybe faust, lekkit.

liopoil: started off really slow, picked up the pace after hitting L-2 for lurking. People have said his response was townie? What was townie about it. He started posting to save his own hide. At most that is a null tell and worst a scumtell. I still think that he remained calm and composed indicates kinda scumminess... has anyone checked how he responded in moderncommunity (I haven't yet)... but realize he has a valid point in explaining why he did.... His votes have also felt very self preserving (once he voted) and he doesn't really give reads (he does give some town reads, voltaire for example) until he gives the % post after ash calls everyone out for not doing it (once again, only doing something after being called out) and is mostly defending himself when he does come back

eevee: less posting than liopoil lately, pretty even a while back though, so while liopoil amped up his posting eevee has just kinda maintained the status quo. He was one player I thought started off with the PoE way too early and really hasn't done so since then. Interesting! There is nothing here. Nothing, especially of late he said he chimed in everytime he thought he had something to offer, but I dont' believe that. town!Eevee has more to say on these subjects. Based off this I would vote for eevee before I would vote for liopoil vote: eevee

2.7: up until now I was voting for him. The main point against him was that he lurked until called out and then majorily amped up his posting. And not just a bit like liopoil, but by a lot! If he is scum that takes a tremendous effort and had it happened before being called out would have been worthy of being taken off the potential lynch list. Other stuff he has done has been weird: sheeping ashersky in a way, voting for chairs recently, voting and unvoting lekkit a few days ago. So there is stuff I am concerned about here, but I am beginning to think that his substance and posting will help us learn his alignment better on a later day. This does set a precident for scum, if he is scum. if you are called out for lurking and triple or quadruple your posts afterward you probably won't get lynched... I am fine with this sort of a precident and don't think scum will successfully be able to get away with it. If 2.7 is scum, I am impressed.

mail-mi: only a few more posts than eevee: Also started PoEing too early I think, but has posted similar posts throughout the thread.... Pretty typical mail-mi early on. I am not sure what voltaire was pinpointing as being different. This isn't to say that mail-mi looks town, but rather that that last few times he has been scum he looked the same as when he was town and by that I mean, willing to vote just about anybody that came up for a lynch, sheepy, lurky and just plain old scummy (his bias/stats post especially and voting for chairs just after 2.7 did)

I am not going to look at lekkit right now. Instead I'll look at faust:

faust: (note that this doesn't include talking about his claim or posts postclaim only stuff before), I'll talk more about his claim stuff if/when after he responds to the questions pending for him... was very active early, but has tapered off into the late game. if I remember correctly I pointed this out about him in GoT and started a wagon on him because of it. I still think it is a scummier trait, but since that sample didn't indicate he was scum I am not sure it is in regard to him.... Again I just don't see the significance of what ash pointed out in the early game.... (does this change with his claim, that I guess is something to think about, but again I'll look at that later), also had the early PoE thing going on, but has also continued to post in similar manner throughout... He reads ash as scum, something I am beginning to disagree with more and more (and hope that he doesn't shoot ash if he is town and is lynched). His whole day really has been focused on conversing with ash and 2.7 and is kinda hard to get a read on...

Conclusion:

2.7 and Lekkit I think are out of my lynch pool. Faust is back in it (w/o the claim at least). I think I prefer eevee over mail-mi over liopoil. and I will continue to vote: eevee. w/o faust's claim I think I would put faust between mail-mi and liopoil... with it... I am not sure.

[yuma]

Vote count yuma.1
2.7... (1): Teproc
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, faust
Eevee (2): Robz888, yuma
liopoil (4): Eevee, chairs, Ichimaru Gin, mail-mi
faust (4): ashersky, Lekkit, 2.7, liopoil

Not Voting (0):

An official vote count would be nice!

[liopoil]

oh, I will not be online at deadline either! my last check in will be tomorrow morning,  maybe also at noon, but if I check in at noon, all I'll have time to do is move my vote if necessary. If we aren't lynching faust for some reason, then I suspect we will be lynching eevee or mail-mi or myself. I will be voting eevee over mail-mi, and mail-mi over myself should this happen.

[Eevee]

I think earlier yuma thought the time I started doing PoE was the first non-too early time. Quite whatever on that though, could be interpreted as yuma trying to paint me as scummy, though.

[ashersky]

The Day 1 deadline is now 2:20 pm December 19th (instead of 2)  This is so one of us can be present to lock the thread.

That's 6:20 a.m. here, so I probably will NOT be around for deadline, and definitely not the hours leading up to deadline.  Just FYIing everyone on the time zone issue.

[yuma]

Ok, went and looked at lio in moderncommunity and thought I would also look and see if eevee got pressure for lurking in GoT and toystory

so liopoil:

he lurked pretty heavily there... at one point he was 300 post behind and I think he did respond more aggressively....

Yes, my latest posts are defensive, because I am defending myself. What did you expect?? Defending myself isn't scummy, if that's what you're saying. I've heavily defended myself every game I've had a wagon on me in, which is like, all of them.

IIRC, mcmc didn't start posting more in KCGM when he got accused... he lurked the whole way.

and you say "so in the end, liopoil looks a little more scummy to me". Which of shraeye's/robz's/dsell's bad points are you agreeing with?

Dsell, that's not all I've contributed. I had that thing with EFHW's case on mcmc, I defended nkirbit a bit... look, I don't have a TON of content, but it's more than a lot of other people. And I don't know about saying it in a lot of words, I'm just saying what I have to say. And I was  gone when a lot of stuff happened!

and you may think my case is weak, but it isn't total crap - IIRC voltaire and TA agreed with it. So I'm not just making stuff up.

As for trying to blend in D1, look at what I did with the secondary wincon thing! I think town is much more likely to jump in saying "I've got a secondary wincon" when it isn't known that everyone does.

faust is right, I really should put a vote down. Well, when it comes down to it, I'm willing to vote for anyone to save myself, simply because I know I'm town and I don't know anyone else's alignment. I'll be around at the deadline, and will also hopefully look at some other people and find someone I actually want to lynch, and am not just trying to save myself.

liopoil - first to dive into secondary win-con.  i disagree with 'getting it out of the way'.  just ignore it, and focus on the game, which will be tough enough with our large numbers.  wordy explanation that basically adds nothing new to the Galz-discussion, behind which he hides his vote; that be scummy.  says that we shouldn't think too much of the lurking arguments, but IS interested in lynching mcmcs for lurking.  I don't like this stance at all.  Hiding behind Voltgloss's list; trying to attack EFHW's day1 case for 'stretching'.

Look, if I can get the secondary win, why not do it? I really doubt it had much of any effect on the real game. I'd rather do it then than in the middle of D6 while massclaiming or something.

NOTHING NEW to the galz discussion?? Nonsense. At the time everyone was just talking about how he wasn't leading town. My post had only things that hadn't been mentioned yet.

I am potentially willing to lynch mcmc for lurking, yes, but am far from sold that it's the best lynch. Don't see what's wrong with this.

Hiding behind VG's list? I assume this is the same thing as robz. look, that was a POST COUNT. I was not voiceing ANY of my personal beliefs in that post!

yeah, I didn't like EFHW's case. because it was bad. so?

So I think I stand by my belief that town lio reacts more aggressively toward pressure while scum lio keeps his cool as lio was town in this game...

Eevee I dont' think received any pressure Toy Story early... yeah he had one vote the whole game...

GoT.... received one vote for lurking, but no heavy pressure day1... so can't really glean anything from this....

[yuma]

I think earlier yuma thought the time I started doing PoE was the first non-too early time. Quite whatever on that though, could be interpreted as yuma trying to paint me as scummy, though.

I did say that, I had forgotten in the context of reading your post alone. But I dont' think it really changes how I feel about you... that the one post I noticed of yours was a PoE midday and since then and before then kinda nothing....

[ashersky]

So I think I stand by my belief that town lio reacts more aggressively toward pressure while scum lio keeps his cool as lio was town in this game...

Doesn't this lead to a stronger scumread on lio for you?  If so, still less than Eevee?

[yuma]

So I think I stand by my belief that town lio reacts more aggressively toward pressure while scum lio keeps his cool as lio was town in this game...

Doesn't this lead to a stronger scumread on lio for you?  If so, still less than Eevee?

Yes it does. I am not sure about less than eevee, I think it moves him back above mail-mi.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I find Faust's claim completely scummy. That, and the fact that he just disappeared after making it. His excuse does not hold up in my mind either.
We need a lynch today, and I think Faust is it.
vote: Faust

[liopoil]

@yuma, in that game the case on me was terrible, from my perspective, and so yes, I defended myself aggressively. Here, it's just wrong, the reasoning itself isn't that flawed. I can't say things like "what? I'm not lurking!!"

[2.71828.....]

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still town.

Unvote for now. I do not want to lynch Faust while he is away. And he was L-2. And the more I think about it the more I think if we lynch Faust we will lose ashersky and that they are both actually town. I still don't like the claim, and if it was a frustration claim I don't see something happening that he should have gotten frustrated over. If it was a claim to stimulate discussion then why didn't he stay around though?

But above all, he needs a chance to say something, and I do not want to be a part of a lynch that kills him before he has that chance.

[2.71828.....]

At this point I will vote Faust or eevee. I will probably not vote tonight, but I will be here before the deadline and I will have a vote down.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.13

怪客

2.7... (1): Teproc
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, faust
Eevee (2): Robz888, yuma
liopoil (3): Eevee, chairs, mail-mi
faust (5): ashersky, Lekkit, 2.7, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:30 p.m. Forum time.

[ashersky]

I find Faust's claim completely scummy. That, and the fact that he just disappeared after making it. His excuse does not hold up in my mind either.
We need a lynch today, and I think Faust is it.
vote: Faust

This was L-1.  You have to announce that, man.

[Eevee]

I actually think our new guy is plenty scummy here.

[mail-mi]

I actually think our new guy is plenty scummy here.

So was I in my first game. Newbie D1 pass, look at him tomorrow

[Eevee]

I actually think our new guy is plenty scummy here.

So was I in my first game. Newbie D1 pass, look at him tomorrow

i know all that, yet i felt posting what i did was worth it.

[mail-mi]

Ok.  I am going to do something crazy. 

vote: chairs

Yes, I get that he could be a PR.  I get that.  I saw it as soon as Voltaire mentioned the secret case before he had to explain it to the whole world

But

he could also be scum. (or the SK)

JK9++ could have up to 7(!) town PRs.  that is a lot.  Chairs could also be our only PR.  Or he could be one of many.  We could have a SK.  We might not.  Which is why JK9++ is impossible to "solve" D1.  Which will make it super fun later on, but right now is kind of annoying since we don't know anything.

However, I am looking at viable lynches and who we will actually learn something about going into D2.  We will learn stuff about chairs.  I also think we have the votes to pull it off.

I believe mail-mi, Ashersky, Lekkit, Eevee, myself will all vote chairs.  The interesting thing is that this basically is almost all of everyone's scum reads (except liopoil).  So this is also intriguing if he does flip scum.  Now, if he flips town PR we will all feel bad and have nice little accusations thrown at us.

But the point is, we can learn more from a chairs lynch than any other lynch right now.

This post gives me all the wrong feelings. Not the vote, cause I think the vote is fine. The entire post. Like, "Yeah he could be a PR but guess what--we have could have 7!" just rubs me all the wrong ways. vote: e to have it somewhere before faust comes.

Oh wait, deadline is 2:20, which is 12:20, which means I won't be on until then. Well, vote: liopoil because he's more viable.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I find Faust's claim completely scummy. That, and the fact that he just disappeared after making it. His excuse does not hold up in my mind either.
We need a lynch today, and I think Faust is it.
vote: Faust

This was L-1.  You have to announce that, man.

Oh. Sorry I didn't realize that. L-1 means one more vote, and then a hammer?

[ashersky]

I find Faust's claim completely scummy. That, and the fact that he just disappeared after making it. His excuse does not hold up in my mind either.
We need a lynch today, and I think Faust is it.
vote: Faust

This was L-1.  You have to announce that, man.

Oh. Sorry I didn't realize that. L-1 means one more vote, and then a hammer?

Right, the L stands for Lynch.  Lynch today is 7 votes.  So 6 votes is 7-1.  Hence, L-1.

It's important to annouce that you are doing it so others know not to vote without meaning to hammer.  Later in the game, it is important because scum can just quickhammer.

[Robz888]

Woah, major inconsistency here.

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still town.

Unvote for now. I do not want to lynch Faust while he is away. And he was L-2. And the more I think about it the more I think if we lynch Faust we will lose ashersky and that they are both actually town. I still don't like the claim, and if it was a frustration claim I don't see something happening that he should have gotten frustrated over. If it was a claim to stimulate discussion then why didn't he stay around though?

But above all, he needs a chance to say something, and I do not want to be a part of a lynch that kills him before he has that chance.

At this point I will vote Faust or eevee. I will probably not vote tonight, but I will be here before the deadline and I will have a vote down.

2.7 is totally trying to have it both ways... supporting the faust lynch enough to have it go through, but being posed to be on record as having thought faust was town for after he flips town (if faust does flip town, which he will if 2.7 is scum).

So as scummy as I find everything having to do with faust, this looks much worse, yes? I would totally toally lynch 2.7 for this. These were back to back posts, not like evolving reads. (2.7 initially evolved to thinking faust was town right after the claim disappearance, which I think is just objectively the opposite reaction a townie should have had. It's opposite my reaction.)

Vote: 2.7 I will be around at deadline and an hour or two before deadline, and will move to Eevee, liopoil, faust, or mail-mi, or faust if necessary. I actually like the faust lynch even more now since if it's wrong, he could shoot 2.7. I don't want him to shoot ashersky, if ash is wrong about faust he's wrong, whatever, town ash has bad early reads and is brashly overconfident all the time. Shoot 2.7, faust!

[mail-mi]

Shoot 2.7, faust!

Agreed.

[EFHW]

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:30 2:20 p.m. Forum time.

[mail-mi]

Shoot 2.7, faust!

Agreed.

Oh wait I revoted for liopoil, here's to hoping e becomes viable: vote: e

[ashersky]

Really?  We're letting faust get away with this?

He's all but admitted to his fake claim by claiming it, disappearing, then coming back and reading the thread in the mean time without posting.

[Robz888]

Looks like mafiascum wiki is back up. So much for that.

/kickball

[ashersky]

Very little access for the next five hours or so, then gone until deadline.

My vote stays on Faust.

[faust]

Okay I need to know why faust claimed. Why, faust? You weren't going to be lynched. Why claim?

I'm realistic. At the point this game was, it was unlikely that we would hit scum D1. It was, instead, possible for us to accidentally lynch a town PR without giving them a chance to claim because we're running out of time. I offered a lynch that, while it doesn't hit scum directly, is probably the best mislynch town can get (because it activates my power).

[faust]

If faust is telling the truth and this set-up actually uses Vengeful, that's the absolute go-to fakeclaim for scum if they're being lynched.  It keeps you from being lynched most of the time.  Vengeful fits scum way better than town anyway.

I have no fear of being killed by faust if he's lynched.  He's lying.

What, Vengeful keeps you from being lynched? I think it encourages lynching you, because doing that gives another town-controlled kill.

[faust]

I mean, that was a terrible D1 claim. There is a reason vigs don't shoot N1- you probably hit town. Same for vengeful. You will probably hit town.

Well, I disagree with this assessment.

[faust]

Here are the possibilities:

Faust is scum.  One scum dead going into N1.
Faust is truthful town, vengekills ash.  Two town dead going into N1.
Faust is lying town.  One town dead going into N1.



Faust could also easily be the SK, if there is one.

Why mention the SK? Is that what scum!ash hopes for, so he won't die?

[faust]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

How many V combos include Vengeful as an option?

Well, mafiascum is online again, so you all can check that, but from the top of my head, every V combo expect 7V includes Vengeful as an option.

[faust]

Yeah, if faust does NOT post before mafiascum comes back up, that's even MORE damning evidence against him.

Yes, it's the evidence that I sleep at night. Only scum does that!

[faust]

I find Faust's claim completely scummy. That, and the fact that he just disappeared after making it. His excuse does not hold up in my mind either.
We need a lynch today, and I think Faust is it.
vote: Faust

Yes, of course, just disappearing after it is uber-scummy. Because certainly everyone is just going to believe and go ahead lynch someone else. No, the reason I disappeared (expect being tired) is that I wanted some discussion on this, and if it lead to a lynch, fine, that's probably not the worst thing ever. I'm only responding now because some players that I believe to be town have asked me to do so.

[faust]

Shoot 2.7, faust!

Agreed.

I will consider it.

[faust]

Well, in fact, vote: e. mail-mi isn't super-scummy, and has announced that he will be gone till the deadline, so it would be bad to lynch him.

[yuma]

Okay I need to know why faust claimed. Why, faust? You weren't going to be lynched. Why claim?

I'm realistic. At the point this game was, it was unlikely that we would hit scum D1. It was, instead, possible for us to accidentally lynch a town PR without giving them a chance to claim because we're running out of time. I offered a lynch that, while it doesn't hit scum directly, is probably the best mislynch town can get (because it activates my power).

But if you are telling the truth we wouldn't need to know that you were vengeful for it to be activated. You would have been lynched and then could use your power...

And it isn't like you are wanting our imput here, you said from the beginning that you wanted to shoot ashersky, so claiming to get our advice wasn't on your mind at all? Then why claim? Regardless of you claiming, if you are telling the truth you would still be a vengeful right? Now if you are telling the truth mafia knows this and can correctly posture themselves to be in a more adventageous position so you don't shoot them.... whereas if you had kept quiet they wouldn't know anything....

I am not sure I follow your line of thought on why this was good.

[2.71828.....]

An overnight wagon on me. Exciting. Could someone last out the whole case against me? It seems to be part posting habits, part chairs vote, part something else. I will be at work soon to start working through some thoughts.

[yuma]

An overnight wagon on me. Exciting. Could someone last out the whole case against me? It seems to be part posting habits, part chairs vote, part something else. I will be at work soon to start working through some thoughts.

I think the biggest thing was what Robz pointed out:

Woah, major inconsistency here.

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still town.

Unvote for now. I do not want to lynch Faust while he is away. And he was L-2. And the more I think about it the more I think if we lynch Faust we will lose ashersky and that they are both actually town. I still don't like the claim, and if it was a frustration claim I don't see something happening that he should have gotten frustrated over. If it was a claim to stimulate discussion then why didn't he stay around though?

But above all, he needs a chance to say something, and I do not want to be a part of a lynch that kills him before he has that chance.

At this point I will vote Faust or eevee. I will probably not vote tonight, but I will be here before the deadline and I will have a vote down.

2.7 is totally trying to have it both ways... supporting the faust lynch enough to have it go through, but being posed to be on record as having thought faust was town for after he flips town (if faust does flip town, which he will if 2.7 is scum).

So as scummy as I find everything having to do with faust, this looks much worse, yes? I would totally toally lynch 2.7 for this. These were back to back posts, not like evolving reads. (2.7 initially evolved to thinking faust was town right after the claim disappearance, which I think is just objectively the opposite reaction a townie should have had. It's opposite my reaction.)

Vote: 2.7 I will be around at deadline and an hour or two before deadline, and will move to Eevee, liopoil, faust, or mail-mi, or faust if necessary. I actually like the faust lynch even more now since if it's wrong, he could shoot 2.7. I don't want him to shoot ashersky, if ash is wrong about faust he's wrong, whatever, town ash has bad early reads and is brashly overconfident all the time. Shoot 2.7, faust!

basically that it looks like you are trying to get faust lynched, but wanting to be able to be on the side of thinking he was town if he flips town....

[yuma]

count yuma.2

2.7... (4): Teproc, Robz, mail-mi, faust
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Eevee (1): yuma
liopoil (2): Eevee, chairs
faust (5): ashersky, Lekkit, 2.7, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin

Well all of the other alternative lynches have died off (eevee, mail-mi and liopoil... I am very intrigued by this and will want to look at it more closely come tomorrow). I still feel confident about removing 2.7 from my lynch pool... I agree the posturing thing Robz brought up could be something, but I don't think it is enough for me to revert him back into my scum read list.

And I think that puts me at vote: faust. That is L-1 I might prefer lio or eevee to this, but neither seem to have enough at this point. But that isn't really true... all three of these players are pretty much sixes to me... and as I will be leaving for work soon, I need my vote down so faust it is. I don't see the narrative he laid out for explaning why he claimed. It doesn't make sense to me as I already outlined. He could have kept quiet and been lynched and we would have had the same outcome if he was telling the truth... but I don't think he is at this point.

[2.71828.....]

Initial thought: Do not lynch Faust

I say do not lynch Faust right now. There is a good chance he gets NKed because his reads can only get better as time progresses. Worst case: lynch Faust (town) kills ashersky (town) and scum kill [insert name here] (town) and SK kills [insert name here] (town).

After reading some of what other people wrote, and looking back at what he claimed as flavor name, I thought this:

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

His flavor is all bad to. Town!e is shu. Town!ash is shu. Scum!Faust is wu.

Then I realized that I was wrong about the flavor.  (I totally forgot there were two types of good guys)  I went back to being hesitant about the lynch, but kept my vote

This is either disgusted town or caught scum behavior from Faust. I lean caught scum and am ready to vote: Faust

His flavor is all bad to. Town!e is shu. Town!ash is shu. Scum!Faust is wu.

or, he is at least different than us. So we will likely get at least 1 scum for 1 town

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

oh. Well then. I forgot to go back and look at that. All three of us might be town

These three show that I am more and more viewing Faust as town

I'm also willing to vote for faust because if I'm wrong and he flips town, I'm a-ok with him shooting ash.

see I think that will be the death of two town members.

I will be voting for faust unless we get a great explanation from him. I'm now thinking the most plausible explanation for what just happened is that it was a fake claim gone wrong when he realized mafiascum wiki was down.

see, he was in no rush to claim though. Our fake claim. Whichever. I think mafiascum being down actually helps his claim. Because if I were to fake claim I would get the info and all my ducks in a row before the claim

I will be voting for faust unless we get a great explanation from him. I'm now thinking the most plausible explanation for what just happened is that it was a fake claim gone wrong when he realized mafiascum wiki was down.

see, he was in no rush to claim though. Our fake claim. Whichever. I think mafiascum being down actually helps his claim. Because if I were to fake claim I would get the info and all my ducks in a row before the claim

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still to town.

My question: do we lynch anti-town behavior? Or do we lynch scum? They are not always the same thing. He is not SK. No way.

Then, because we might be at a dangerous point with the wagon at L-2 (not at L-1 as Ashersky said) I went ahead and unvoted, again saying that I think they both might be town.

ugh I am talking myself into thinking he really is town. anti-town behavior, but still town.

Unvote for now. I do not want to lynch Faust while he is away. And he was L-2. And the more I think about it the more I think if we lynch Faust we will lose ashersky and that they are both actually town. I still don't like the claim, and if it was a frustration claim I don't see something happening that he should have gotten frustrated over. If it was a claim to stimulate discussion then why didn't he stay around though?

But above all, he needs a chance to say something, and I do not want to be a part of a lynch that kills him before he has that chance.

So yes, I flip-flopped a bit.  So I would say if I vote Faust then I have set myself up to say "I told you so, he was town" but my current unvote status (extra emphasis because people missed it earlier) is more in line with what I have posted recently than not.  But you can read the progression of my posts/thoughts and say for yourself it is is scummy.

[2.71828.....]

Vote Count 1.13

怪客

2.7... (1): Teproc
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, faust
Eevee (2): Robz888, yuma
liopoil (3): Eevee, chairs, mail-mi
faust (5): ashersky, Lekkit, 2.7, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:30 p.m. Forum time.

This vote count was wrong.  I was not voting Faust.  I had unvoted two posts previous

[2.71828.....]

Maybe he's waiting for mafiascum wiki to reload again so he can perfect his fake claim.

He already said something about the letter it would imply. What else could he say?

How many V combos include Vengeful as an option?

they are actually "K" combos according to the wiki, which is why he said K. I believe if we rolled 1 K it is 50/50 for vengeful/ vig.  Multiple K rolls force a vengeful

I don't know what either one of e and teproc are talking about, I'm looking at the setup right in front of me and I'm it does not say what they think it says.

Killing Roles
K = Vengeful OR Vigilante (50/50 chance of either)
KK = Vengeful, Vigilante
KKK = Vengeful, Vigilante, Vigilante
KKKK = Vengeful, Vengeful, Vigilante, Vigilante

I don't know what wiki page liopoil was looking at, because it seems to me like I remembered the vengeful/vigilante situation pretty well.

[Teproc]

liopil was trying to discredit what you and me were saying to give faust a chance to be wrong. If faust flips scum, that's a pretty towny thing to do (and we would both deserve scum points for what we did because that's exactly what faust's scumpartners would have done).

[liopoil]

Yeah, I lied. you guys were totally right.

[2.71828.....]

If faust is telling the truth and this set-up actually uses Vengeful, that's the absolute go-to fakeclaim for scum if they're being lynched.  It keeps you from being lynched most of the time.  Vengeful fits scum way better than town anyway.

I have no fear of being killed by faust if he's lynched.  He's lying.

What, Vengeful keeps you from being lynched? I think it encourages lynching you, because doing that gives another town-controlled kill.

Ok.  This post really seems to me like Faust is disgusted town and really wants to use his vengeful power to kill Ash (who he strongly believes to be scum). 

Here is what I see as the situation:
Lynch Faust
    1) town!faust vengeful kills town!ash - terrible.  We lose two town, scum kill another.  So now we are maybe at 3 scum 7 town (most likely 3 scum, not guarenteed).  Compound that with a SK and we could be either 3 scum, 5 town, 1 SK or 2 scum, 6 town, 1 SK.
    2) town!faust vengeful kills scum!ash - great.  one for one trade.  But scum still get the NK so 2 scum 8 town (+SK possibilities) We are in a fine situation
    3) scum!faust dies.  Awesome

Lynch someone else today
    1) Scum NK vengeful!Faust because they do not want him to be able to use his vengeful kill.  WIFOM especially concerning Ashersky.  would scum!ash kill vengeful!faust to avoid getting venge!killed? 
    2) We lynch vengeful!Faust tomorrow.  He has more data to use for his venge!kill.  He might end up on Ash, he might end up on someone else, but it will be a more informed kill.
    3) We lynch scum!Faust tomorrow.  Awesome.

Waiting one night also gives a chance for town PRs (if we have them) to investigate people and figure out things.  A tracker, flavor cop, and gunsmith and all possible PRs that will be able to investigate people. 

I am not a fan of the claim.  I am also not a fan of the Faust lynch right now.  All things held constant I will lynch him tomorrow, but I don't really want to lynch him today.

vote: eevee

[Teproc]

This switch is interesting. Makes me question my scum read on e. A lot. Unvote for now.

[liopoil]

I really want to lynch faust because a) he could be NKed and we lose his vengekill, b) we score if either ash or him is scum, better odds than if we lynch someone else, and c) he isn't town.

I really think he's scum. I'll use that same quote that e just quoted:

If faust is telling the truth and this set-up actually uses Vengeful, that's the absolute go-to fakeclaim for scum if they're being lynched.  It keeps you from being lynched most of the time.  Vengeful fits scum way better than town anyway.

I have no fear of being killed by faust if he's lynched.  He's lying.

What, Vengeful keeps you from being lynched? I think it encourages lynching you, because doing that gives another town-controlled kill.

he doesn't know what vengeful does. the PM on mafiascum says:

Town Vengeful
Welcome, [Player Name], you are a Town Vengeful.
Abilities:
If you are lynched, you may vengekill any player in the game during twilight. You do not have to kill.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

pretty clear that he dies when he gets lynched.

He is also scum because he was absent exactly between when he claimed and when mafiascum came back up.

he is also scum because his claim is bad, and scum make bad claims (for town) more than town.

he is also scum because he came right out of the gate saying he will vengekill ash, who is likely town I think, and who I don't see why he would suspect besides OMGUS.

he is also scum because he appears to want to be lynched, but isn't self-voting or explicitly asking to be lynched. scum gambit.

lynch faust guys. do it.

faust, should you actually be town, I highly recommend not shooting ashersky, he's town methinks. Why do you suspect him? shoot e. or eevee. not ashersky.

I guess I should explain my lie, though it should be obvious. I was covering up for e and teproc, giving faust some doubt about what it really was. Also, faust did end up getting it semi-wrong, right?

[Teproc]

I really want to lynch faust because a) he could be NKed and we lose his vengekill, b) we score if either ash or him is scum, better odds than if we lynch someone else, and c) he isn't town.

Not using his vengekill isn't a loss for town. It's not exactly a win, but it's not a loss in my mind.

We score if either or them are scum, but we also double-mislynch if they're both town. Maybe someone can run the odds on that, but I don't think this is a good lynch statistically speaking, even less when you factor in that I think ash is likely to be town.

I really think he's scum. I'll use that same quote that e just quoted:

If faust is telling the truth and this set-up actually uses Vengeful, that's the absolute go-to fakeclaim for scum if they're being lynched.  It keeps you from being lynched most of the time.  Vengeful fits scum way better than town anyway.

I have no fear of being killed by faust if he's lynched.  He's lying.

What, Vengeful keeps you from being lynched? I think it encourages lynching you, because doing that gives another town-controlled kill.

he doesn't know what vengeful does. the PM on mafiascum says:

Town Vengeful
Welcome, [Player Name], you are a Town Vengeful.
Abilities:
If you are lynched, you may vengekill any player in the game during twilight. You do not have to kill.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

pretty clear that he dies when he gets lynched.

What ? I took it as meaning that the act of claiming vengeful may or may not get you lynched. If you seriously think faust was confused about Vengeful making him Lynchproof, I don't know what to tell you.

He is also scum because he was absent exactly between when he claimed and when mafiascum came back up.

Also known as 11pm to 8am (I don't know when exactly mafiascum came back but you know) where faust lives.
[/quote]

It's weird that most of my day 1 feels like I've been defending faust when I don't even have a town read on him, but people keep comling up with the most ludicrous reasons for wanting to lynch him.

[2.71828.....]

It's weird that most of my day 1 feels like I've been defending faust when I don't even have a town read on him, but people keep comling up with the most ludicrous reasons for wanting to lynch him.

Hence my town read on Teproc.  Town wants a good, reasoned lynch.  Scum will just kill whoever works.

[2.71828.....]

Now, about the Eevee lynch: We don't have any "good, reasoned" evidence to lynch him based on what he has said, but because of what he hasn't said.  Sure, circumstantial evidence is in play because he has had low content D1 while scum in the past (toy story is the only thing I have to draw upon) and that he really didn't defend himself at all here today.  More of just a "if I stay away they will forget I exist" defense.

Actually, intriguing theory that doesn't necessarily work because scum don't have daychat to coordinate this kind of thing:  scum!Faust claimed to get pressure off the scum!Eevee lynch, where we were headed.  scum!Eevee will have a chance to up his usefulness over the course of D2 because there is some "interesting stuff" going on now.  Avoid getting lynched there.  Survive to the end?

[faust]

It is probably the time to call this off.

I am not Vengeful. I claimed to be to get reactions.

This is why I fixed my kill on ashersky. I wanted to see how he reacted. And I don't find his reaction particularly towny. What is more, the whole discussion about whether or not to kill me will be much more insightful once we know ashersky's alignment. If he's town, look for scum on my wagon. If he's scum, look for the other scum among people defending me (yes, it's not always that easy, but I think a good baseline).

Vote: ashersky

[2.71828.....]

It is probably the time to call this off.

I am not Vengeful. I claimed to be to get reactions.

This is why I fixed my kill on ashersky. I wanted to see how he reacted. And I don't find his reaction particularly towny. What is more, the whole discussion about whether or not to kill me will be much more insightful once we know ashersky's alignment. If he's town, look for scum on my wagon. If he's scum, look for the other scum among people defending me (yes, it's not always that easy, but I think a good baseline).

Vote: ashersky

oh my

[2.71828.....]

so now you are claiming that you were lying town, but that it was a useful lie.

[Teproc]

What the hell ?

[Teproc]

Before anything happens : policy lynching is bad, people. We're playing to win this game, we shouldn't worry about future games.

Need to think if faust's play makes more sense as scum or town, but I feel like it doesn't make sense at all.

[Teproc]

What in ash's reactions makes you say he's not townie ? What were you expecting to get from him that would justify fakeclaiming as town ?

[faust]

What in ash's reactions makes you say he's not townie ? What were you expecting to get from him that would justify fakeclaiming as town ?

Well, I was hoping that he would get afraid to be lynched and back off. That would have been a sure scumtell. But I guess ashersky's too clever for that. Still, I had the feeling that his case against me after my claim was so over the top, as if he didn't really try to convince people.

Also, people need to realise that this game isn't as easy as "fakeclaiming as town=bad". In most cases, yes, it is, but there are situations where it's not, and I think this was one of them.

[Ichimaru Gin]

It is probably the time to call this off.

I am not Vengeful. I claimed to be to get reactions.

This is why I fixed my kill on ashersky. I wanted to see how he reacted. And I don't find his reaction particularly towny. What is more, the whole discussion about whether or not to kill me will be much more insightful once we know ashersky's alignment. If he's town, look for scum on my wagon. If he's scum, look for the other scum among people defending me (yes, it's not always that easy, but I think a good baseline).

Vote: ashersky

Ok. Just woke up, been reading over everything that I missed.
Question. I have a pretty strong town-read on Ash myself. So in my mind at least, voting for someone threatening to kill town is actually a town-read. Also, I find it hard to believe that anyone could not find Faust's behavior scummy, meaning this entire gambit was how useful? Which of your statements do we choose to believe. Maybe this is just a ploy because you were betting on the fact that your claim wouldn't actually get you lynched. So you are now trying to pass it off as a plan to help town. I don't buy it.

[Teproc]

Because... his case against you wasn't over the top before you claimed ?

[2.71828.....]

What in ash's reactions makes you say he's not townie ? What were you expecting to get from him that would justify fakeclaiming as town ?

Well, I was hoping that he would get afraid to be lynched and back off. That would have been a sure scumtell. But I guess ashersky's too clever for that. Still, I had the feeling that his case against me after my claim was so over the top, as if he didn't really try to convince people.

Also, people need to realise that this game isn't as easy as "fakeclaiming as town=bad". In most cases, yes, it is, but there are situations where it's not, and I think this was one of them.

that really feels like confirmation bias to me.  You are looking for reasons to find Ash scummy, so you found them. 

PPE: As Teproc said, his case against you was already so strongly stated that there is really nothing you could expect to hear from him except to go all out and call you scum

[Voltaire]

Well, in fact, vote: e. mail-mi isn't super-scummy, and has announced that he will be gone till the deadline, so it would be bad to lynch him.

It would also be great play by mafia to get us to think this.

(I'm catching up on the thread now, replying as I see 'em)

[faust]

What in ash's reactions makes you say he's not townie ? What were you expecting to get from him that would justify fakeclaiming as town ?

Well, I was hoping that he would get afraid to be lynched and back off. That would have been a sure scumtell. But I guess ashersky's too clever for that. Still, I had the feeling that his case against me after my claim was so over the top, as if he didn't really try to convince people.

Also, people need to realise that this game isn't as easy as "fakeclaiming as town=bad". In most cases, yes, it is, but there are situations where it's not, and I think this was one of them.

that really feels like confirmation bias to me.  You are looking for reasons to find Ash scummy, so you found them. 

PPE: As Teproc said, his case against you was already so strongly stated that there is really nothing you could expect to hear from him except to go all out and call you scum

Well, possible. But he made reasonable arguments before, not just "oh, faust is scum cause he claimed a role not in the game". But feel free to have a different opinion, that's why I told you this, so you can make your own judgment.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.14

怪客

2.7... (2): Robz, mail-mi
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Eevee (1):  2.7...
liopoil (2): Eevee, chairs
faust (5): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma
ashersky (1): faust

Not Voting (1): Teproc

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:20 p.m. Forum time.

[Voltaire]

Oh. Oh. Oh.

Also, people need to realise that this game isn't as easy as "fakeclaiming as town=bad". In most cases, yes, it is, but there are situations where it's not, and I think this was one of them.

First, I agree with this. But I'm not sure if I see it here. I need to re-read.

This has certainly shifted the focus of discussion away from tons of other people back to the "original", less-interesting in my mind people of the day. Not sure I like that.

[faust]

It is probably the time to call this off.

I am not Vengeful. I claimed to be to get reactions.

This is why I fixed my kill on ashersky. I wanted to see how he reacted. And I don't find his reaction particularly towny. What is more, the whole discussion about whether or not to kill me will be much more insightful once we know ashersky's alignment. If he's town, look for scum on my wagon. If he's scum, look for the other scum among people defending me (yes, it's not always that easy, but I think a good baseline).

Vote: ashersky

Ok. Just woke up, been reading over everything that I missed.
Question. I have a pretty strong town-read on Ash myself. So in my mind at least, voting for someone threatening to kill town is actually a town-read. Also, I find it hard to believe that anyone could not find Faust's behavior scummy, meaning this entire gambit was how useful? Which of your statements do we choose to believe. Maybe this is just a ploy because you were betting on the fact that your claim wouldn't actually get you lynched. So you are now trying to pass it off as a plan to help town. I don't buy it.

Well, lynch me if you need to. I understand if you do. Just remember what I said afterwards.

[Voltaire]

What I'm seeing on a re-read is confirmation bias from both faust and ash about each other, but none of the usual signs that let one go "oh, this is town v town."

[Voltaire]

faust, are you really Lu Meng?

[faust]

faust, are you really Lu Meng?

Yes.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So you're saying the flavor name you claimed was real, but you aren't in fact vengeful?

[faust]

So you're saying the flavor name you claimed was real, but you aren't in fact vengeful?

Yes.

[Voltaire]

Ok...I think faust is town.

Reasons:

1. Scum doesn't write "he's an ok mislynch" in-thread
2. faust has been sorting out optimal PR play (which is what he does regardless of role as town) [though I don't know if he did this in M31 as scum, I'll have to check]
3. I can see a pro-town reason to fake-claim vengeful from faust. Not that I think it was done particularly well, but it's definitely there.
4. faust willingly replied as to when he got his PM
5. He appears to go back and check the setup to see if there's a roleblocker (after saying there isn't, he points out mafia JOAT has a 1-shot)
6. A really, really strong gut feel

I will not be lynching faust today.

I'll vote for mail-mi, ash, e, Eevee, or lio (in that order I think).

[Voltaire]

Actually, I don't think I'll be voting for ash today either.

[faust]

Actually, I don't think I'll be voting for ash today either.

Well yes, I think an ash lynch won't be happening (for some reason I thought the deadline was one more day away), so vote: e is something I can get behind.

[Robz888]

Vote: faust
Vote: faust
Vote: faust
Vote: faust
Vote: faust
Vote: faust
Vote: faust
Vote: faust
Vote: faust

[2.71828.....]

L-1

[Robz888]

Ok...I think faust is town.

Reasons:

1. Scum doesn't write "he's an ok mislynch" in-thread
2. faust has been sorting out optimal PR play (which is what he does regardless of role as town) [though I don't know if he did this in M31 as scum, I'll have to check]
3. I can see a pro-town reason to fake-claim vengeful from faust. Not that I think it was done particularly well, but it's definitely there.
4. faust willingly replied as to when he got his PM
5. He appears to go back and check the setup to see if there's a roleblocker (after saying there isn't, he points out mafia JOAT has a 1-shot)
6. A really, really strong gut feel

I will not be lynching faust today.

I'll vote for mail-mi, ash, e, Eevee, or lio (in that order I think).

Town doesn't make a claim, disappear to avoid scrutiny, then retract the claim when it gets him into trouble. Scum does that. I mean come on now.

[Robz888]

L-1

Good, fine, someone hammer please.

[2.71828.....]

I will hammer faust at the deadline if we get there.  A few more hours won't hurt anyone

[Robz888]

I will hammer faust at the deadline if we get there.  A few more hours won't hurt anyone

It will if he wiggles out of it.

[Robz888]

Ugh, I mean, faust: What did you expect to happen? You thought we would all thank you for lying about your role, on Day 1 (!), when there was no reason for you to claim at all (!!) ? Did you consider how scummy this would make you look?

[Teproc]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I believe in a town narrative for what faust did here. If he is town, I don't see how he could expect to get anything out of his fakeclaim, because there was no way ash would just back down in the face of a vengeful claim. Someone else maybe, but not ash.

As scum, it's still a very weird play, but it makes some amount of sense. Vengeful is one of the safest fakeclaims there is for scum, especially if he specifically targets someone (because people like me will be scared of hitting two town), but it wasn't working out for him so he backed out of it when it looked like he was kind of the only viable lynch left.

I might hammer soon. I'm thinking about it still. I'll do a quick faust reread right now.

[Robz888]

Unvote I guess to get some answers since he shere.

[Teproc]

Voltaire, faust didn't check back about the Roleblocker. Ash talked about Roleblocking, faust said there was no Town Roleblocker in the setup. I said it was a shame there was no Mafia Roleblocker either, because that could have been a scumslip by ash otherwise, and faust responded that there kind of was a Mafia Roleblocker : the JOAT who has a 1-shot Roleblocking.

[Voltaire]

The Case on mail-mi, or Why We Really Should Lynch Him D1 This Time

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

vote: Voltaire too many town reads so early in the game.

Since when is this scummy/a reason to vote someone?

vote: Voltaire rage vote. I hate hate hate "secret cases" even if they're "secret town slips." Remember the last time someone did this ? Yeah, they were scum.

Since when does mail-mi rage vote?

Oh scum totally tries gutsy plans. All the time.

*squints* Really? D1? Really? Cite examples.

The one that you brought up: Ash&co. in RMM9 (Jimmmm's game) being all on or all off.

That's completely different from a plan to misunderstand the setup D1. That's what we're talking about. Early D1 individual plans.

Okay, I can't think of any specific examples. But i am not going to discredit scum being gutsy on D1. It is very possible.

Statement with no evidence.

He then does his sheeping, of not lynching chairs, of giving yuma a D1 pass, of plan-less ash, of the case on faust, of the case on lio.

He then has the post where he states I have a bias against him (admittedly true) and claims that town will lose if we lynch him, statistically. I'll let yuma take it from here:

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

After being called out, mail-mi claims he was only semi-serious! This is the second time he has done this, after claiming his first vote on me (way back at the top of this post) was semi-serious.

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

Bolded that for you.

Then he votes chairs anyway, despite his previous sheeping of the "chairs is probably a PR". 

So, I think mail-mi is committing the scum tell of "oh crap, that thing I did was scummy - I was just kidding!" in addition to the fact that he has a general anti-town meta. This lets him live for a very long time, because players (like me in the past) keep saying "lynch mafia not scum" and he gets to skate by. mail-mi has also resorted to irrelevant-to-the-game defenses (like the stats).

The following players have voted mail-mi, stated a willingness to vote mail-mi, or have had him in their most recent lynch pool:

Voltaire, chairs, faust, Robz, (yuma?), e, (lio?)

That's seven, and I probably missed some people/some people would vote him to cause a lynch.

PPE: A lot posted while I was writing this.

[faust]

Ugh, I mean, faust: What did you expect to happen? You thought we would all thank you for lying about your role, on Day 1 (!), when there was no reason for you to claim at all (!!) ? Did you consider how scummy this would make you look?

Yes. Well, I am not the worst mislynch. The stage we were at, we could have easily lynched a town PR accidentally, I didn't want that to happen. Which is why I'd still like an ash lynch.

Give me some more time, I'm working on an updated reads list.

[Voltaire]

Ugh, I mean, faust: What did you expect to happen? You thought we would all thank you for lying about your role, on Day 1 (!), when there was no reason for you to claim at all (!!) ? Did you consider how scummy this would make you look?

Yes. Well, I am not the worst mislynch. The stage we were at, we could have easily lynched a town PR accidentally, I didn't want that to happen. Which is why I'd still like an ash lynch.

Give me some more time, I'm working on an updated reads list.

Wouldn't you rather we lynch ash tomorrow for you?

[Lekkit]

Still very happy with my vote. I don't see town playing kike faust has. It's super crazy and I think it's something scum would do to hopefulky get out of a lynch.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, faust didn't check back about the Roleblocker. Ash talked about Roleblocking, faust said there was no Town Roleblocker in the setup. I said it was a shame there was no Mafia Roleblocker either, because that could have been a scumslip by ash otherwise, and faust responded that there kind of was a Mafia Roleblocker : the JOAT who has a 1-shot Roleblocking.

Point. Thanks for catching that. I wasn't doing a full re-read, just of faust's posts.

[Teproc]

Ugh, I mean, faust: What did you expect to happen? You thought we would all thank you for lying about your role, on Day 1 (!), when there was no reason for you to claim at all (!!) ? Did you consider how scummy this would make you look?

Yes. Well, I am not the worst mislynch. The stage we were at, we could have easily lynched a town PR accidentally, I didn't want that to happen. Which is why I'd still like an ash lynch.

Give me some more time, I'm working on an updated reads list.

Are you claiming VT right now ?

[Voltaire]

Ugh, I mean, faust: What did you expect to happen? You thought we would all thank you for lying about your role, on Day 1 (!), when there was no reason for you to claim at all (!!) ? Did you consider how scummy this would make you look?

Yes. Well, I am not the worst mislynch. The stage we were at, we could have easily lynched a town PR accidentally, I didn't want that to happen. Which is why I'd still like an ash lynch.

Give me some more time, I'm working on an updated reads list.

Wait, you're claiming VT?

[2.71828.....]

Ugh, I mean, faust: What did you expect to happen? You thought we would all thank you for lying about your role, on Day 1 (!), when there was no reason for you to claim at all (!!) ? Did you consider how scummy this would make you look?

Yes. Well, I am not the worst mislynch. The stage we were at, we could have easily lynched a town PR accidentally, I didn't want that to happen. Which is why I'd still like an ash lynch.

Give me some more time, I'm working on an updated reads list.

say what?  not the worst mislynch?  I know if you voted me I would certifiably be the worst mislynch, because I am town, and any town mislynch is certifiably the worst mislynch. 

given up the fight already?

[2.71828.....]

Ok, my previous statement is a little strong.  It is true that lynching town PRs is "worse" than VTs, but not to such an extent that anyone should offer themselves up as a mislynch.

First Ash is a good mislynch.

Now Faust himself is a good mislynch.

[Voltaire]

faust, please answer either this:

Wouldn't you rather we lynch ash tomorrow for you?

or this:

Are you claiming VT right now ?

immediately.

[Robz888]

Ugh, I mean, faust: What did you expect to happen? You thought we would all thank you for lying about your role, on Day 1 (!), when there was no reason for you to claim at all (!!) ? Did you consider how scummy this would make you look?

Yes. Well, I am not the worst mislynch. The stage we were at, we could have easily lynched a town PR accidentally, I didn't want that to happen. Which is why I'd still like an ash lynch.

Give me some more time, I'm working on an updated reads list.

No, screw your updated reads list, it's irrelevant now. We're talking about you, man.

[2.71828.....]

I'll give you some percentages if you want:

Voltaire - 37%
Robz888 - 17%
mail-mi - 40%
Chairs - 36%
Ashersky - 42%
Yuma - 24%
Ichimaru Gin - 27%
Lekkit - 20%
Liopoil - 32%
Teproc - 22%
2.7 - 29%
Eevee - 31%
Faust - 90%

FTFY

ok.  it is updated. 

[faust]

I guess I am in a little hurry now, I will post some updated reads for D2 in case you lynch me.

Voltaire - a stronger town impression than I had lately. Still, I could absolutely see him as scum.
Robz888 - most likely town.
mail-mi - lurky as usual. The way he disappeared for the deadline was indeed scummy. Should be looked at again.
Chairs - town or PR. Which of those should be determined soon. Probably needs to claim at latest D3.
Ashersky - likely scum.
Yuma - not much, but he acted a little weird after my claim ("withhold judgment until he returns" - afraid to get opinions out there?) If ash is scum, I could see him as partner.
Ichimaru Gin - pretty null, leaning slightly slightly scum.
Lekkit - seems generally towny.
Liopoil - the way he lied about the setup while mafiascum was offline struck me as towny. Overall, I lean town a little.
Teproc - did not vote for me after my claim. Hard to say what that means, it really depends on ash's alignment. The rest of his play feels reasonable. Slight town read.
2.7 - I agree that he acted scummy around my claim, and I also found him scummy before that. So I lean scum.
Eevee - dangerously absent. Reminds me of GoT, and he was scum there.

PPE: 16

[Robz888]

I guess I am in a little hurry now, I will post some updated reads for D2 in case you lynch me.

If we lynch you, it will be solely because you lied to us without cause, disappeared, said you lied without any sort of justifiable explanation (other than your scum who wrongly thought you'd get mileage out of that), came back, didn't real satisfy anything, posted reads that don't really matter, and left again.

[Robz888]

Faust, for one thing, I put a lot of thought into deciding whether your claim was true. Lotta ink was spilled over that. Now you say I did that for nothing, just so you could draw what looks to me like the wrong conclusion about ash? You see how I don;t actually beleibe you would waste my time like that, and are instead scrambling scum?

[faust]

faust, please answer either this:

Wouldn't you rather we lynch ash tomorrow for you?

or this:

Are you claiming VT right now ?

immediately.

Why would I want to lynch ash tomorrow instead of today? I mean, sure, he'll still be a good lynch tomorrow.

I'm not claiming anything.

[faust]

Faust, for one thing, I put a lot of thought into deciding whether your claim was true. Lotta ink was spilled over that. Now you say I did that for nothing, just so you could draw what looks to me like the wrong conclusion about ash? You see how I don;t actually beleibe you would waste my time like that, and are instead scrambling scum?

Sorry if you feel like I wasted your time.

[Voltaire]

Blurrrrrrrrrgh. Town read on faust lessened, but still a town read.

Faust, for one thing, I put a lot of thought into deciding whether your claim was true. Lotta ink was spilled over that. Now you say I did that for nothing, just so you could draw what looks to me like the wrong conclusion about ash? You see how I don;t actually beleibe you would waste my time like that, and are instead scrambling scum?

If he's town, you know how people reacted will be really, really good evidence once he flips. Same for if he's scum, really.

[Robz888]

Blurrrrrrrrrgh. Town read on faust lessened, but still a town read.

Faust, for one thing, I put a lot of thought into deciding whether your claim was true. Lotta ink was spilled over that. Now you say I did that for nothing, just so you could draw what looks to me like the wrong conclusion about ash? You see how I don;t actually beleibe you would waste my time like that, and are instead scrambling scum?

If he's town, you know how people reacted will be really, really good evidence once he flips. Same for if he's scum, really.

How will it be evidence of anything? People's reactions to his weird lie will be helpful? I mean all reactions are helpful but I don't see how this one is especially helpful.

[faust]

I guess I am in a little hurry now, I will post some updated reads for D2 in case you lynch me.

If we lynch you, it will be solely because you lied to us without cause, disappeared, said you lied without any sort of justifiable explanation (other than your scum who wrongly thought you'd get mileage out of that), came back, didn't real satisfy anything, posted reads that don't really matter, and left again.

When I claimed, we were scrambling towards the end of the Day, unable to get a real wagon. Something had to happen. Okay, I might not have executed it best, but I think this gives a lot to analyze, which is good.

[2.71828.....]

I mean, Eevee's reactions to everything going on here will be really useful in future days.


wait.....


I am still on vote: eevee, right?

[Voltaire]

I guess I am in a little hurry now, I will post some updated reads for D2 in case you lynch me.

If we lynch you, it will be solely because you lied to us without cause, disappeared, said you lied without any sort of justifiable explanation (other than your scum who wrongly thought you'd get mileage out of that), came back, didn't real satisfy anything, posted reads that don't really matter, and left again.

When I claimed, we were scrambling towards the end of the Day, unable to get a real wagon. Something had to happen. Okay, I might not have executed it best, but I think this gives a lot to analyze, which is good.

See, the issue is that I agree with your statement, but your claim made it seem like you were afraid of being lynched, not that you wanted to focus the day. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Robz888]

I'm not even going to entertain a debate over whether what faust did was good or not. It wasn't. But I guess the only question is whether this is something scum did, or town did.

Voltaire, as faust's advocate, maybe you can explain to me why this is more likely something town did?

[Teproc]

The thing that's troubling to me is that faust wasn't even particularly close to being lynched when he claimed. Would he fakeclaim as scum with only moderate pressure ? I mean, it seems like a huge risk to take as scum with, what, 2 votes on him at the time ?

[Voltaire]

I'm not even going to entertain a debate over whether what faust did was good or not. It wasn't. But I guess the only question is whether this is something scum did, or town did.

Voltaire, as faust's advocate, maybe you can explain to me why this is more likely something town did?

Look, I don't think I really debate your first point. I would say my narrative is:

faust sees an unfocused day, and as a player who has been lynched twice while asleep (with no chance to claim), doesn't want that to happen to a town PR this game. So he focuses the day with a fake claim designed to trap his strongest scum read. After a significant amount of reaction, he states what he did.

I should point out that "I was asleep" is pretty damn likely regardless of his alignment.

And I don't see anything strange about "claim, drop the mic and leave, see what happens" as an approach for town.

[Voltaire]

The thing that's troubling to me is that faust wasn't even particularly close to being lynched when he claimed. Would he fakeclaim as scum with only moderate pressure ? I mean, it seems like a huge risk to take as scum with, what, 2 votes on him at the time ?

Yup, two votes.

[Voltaire]

I mean, Eevee's reactions to everything going on here will be really useful in future days.


wait.....


I am still on vote: eevee, right?

Since absolutely no-one is biting on mail-mi, vote: Eevee.

[Teproc]

I could go mail-mi or Eevee as a last-minute lynch, but I'm still undecided on faust. I'm leaning towards awful town play right now but I don't know.

[Voltaire]

because I'll surely be on before the deadline

Nothing wrong with an Eevee wagon, fyi.

[2.71828.....]

Okay, so the wiki being offline really sucks and honesty I'd prefer if someone just posted all the info. The current situation just feels very unfair to scum.

However, while faust's inactivity could be real life-infused, it clearly is scummy here. I approve of the lynch, all the while knowing my jumping on the wagon will look suspicious to some.

Holding off voting until faust gets a chance to react, because I'll surely be on before the deadline, so why not.

/kickball

hedge much?

also you will surely be on before the deadline, so you will definitely have time to defend yourself if we approach L on you

[Robz888]

If not faust, I want to lynch 2.7 for this scummy faust stance.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Quick question on forum time. So the deadline is 2:20 p.m. Forum time. how does that translate into Pacific. Is it +3 hours relative to my time zone?

[Voltaire]

If not faust, I want to lynch 2.7 for this scummy faust stance.

I could do that too, but I'd only do it as a "if nothing better". I'm just worried because of things like his "let's lynch chairs anyway!" stance. But everything else he's done has been scummy. Yeah, it'd be ok.

[Voltaire]

Ok. Quick question on forum time. So the deadline is 2:20 p.m. Forum time. how does that translate into Pacific. Is it +3 hours relative to my time zone?

Yes. Forum time is Eastern Time.

[Robz888]

Deadline is in about 2 and a half hours.

[2.71828.....]

Robz, which part of my Faust stance post claim did you find most scummy?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Thanks Voltaire. Wanted to make sure I had my facts straight on that.

I could lynch 2.7, or Eevee, but at the same time, it seems kind of strange to let Faust off after everything.
I mean, even if he is town (which I very much doubt), I got that part of his plan was to get himself lynched because he didn't want a PR to get hit? Which is part of the reason why people were voting for him in the first place because of the whole "least bad lynch" stance he was taking. I could definitely get behind 2.7 more than Eevee though. Interesting that he had the chance to Hammer Faust, thereby saving himself for today--and he passed it up.

[Teproc]

e trying to start an Eevee wagon when it looked like faust was an easy lynch is making me doubt he's scum.

[Voltaire]

Post count: (no pregame)
138 Voltaire
137 e
104 ashersky
92 Robz
89 Teproc
75 faust
68 yuma
55 liopoil
42 mail-mi
32 Ichimaru Gin
30 Eevee
30 chairs
27 Lekkit

[faust]

Well, Ichimaru is right actually. This jumping around, last-minute-random-voting is exactly what I didn't want. Grr, I am a little mad that I remembered the deadline wrong. At this point, the only reasonable thing to do is probably vote: faust

[Voltaire]

Well, Ichimaru is right actually. This jumping around, last-minute-random-voting is exactly what I didn't want. Grr, I am a little mad that I remembered the deadline wrong. At this point, the only reasonable thing to do is probably vote: faust

STOPPIT.l NOOOOOOO

EEVEE WILL BE HERE BEFORE DEADLINE

[Voltaire]

Vote count please?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Do votes against yourself count?

[Teproc]

Self-voting now ? Great.

[Voltaire]

Do votes against yourself count?

Yes. You may vote for yourself. Which is virtually always HORRIBLE and incredible anti-town play.

[faust]

Well, Ichimaru is right actually. This jumping around, last-minute-random-voting is exactly what I didn't want. Grr, I am a little mad that I remembered the deadline wrong. At this point, the only reasonable thing to do is probably vote: faust

STOPPIT.l NOOOOOOO

EEVEE WILL BE HERE BEFORE DEADLINE

Do you think there's actually support for an Eevee lynch?

Well fine. Vote: Eevee. Worth a try.

[Voltaire]

Do you think there's actually support for an Eevee lynch?

Well fine. Vote: Eevee. Worth a try.

Oh yeah. Definitely.

[Teproc]

Faust (5) : ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru, yuma
Eevee (3) : 2.7, Voltaire, faust
liopoil (2) : Eevee, chairs
2.7 (1) : mail-mi

Not voting (2) : Teproc, Robz

[Teproc]

I'm fine with an Eevee lynch. His play here is very similar to GoT and Toy Story. I'd prefer to lynch mail-mi, but Eevee is good too.

vote: Eevee

[Robz888]

Oh, I mean to be voting for 2.7 Vote: 2.7

[Voltaire]

I'm fine with an Eevee lynch. His play here is very similar to GoT and Toy Story. I'd prefer to lynch mail-mi, but Eevee is good too.

vote: Eevee

Oh! Want to try to convince people on mail-mi? vote: mail-mi.

Oh, I mean to be voting for 2.7 Vote: 2.7

Robz what do you make of

e trying to start an Eevee wagon when it looked like faust was an easy lynch is making me doubt he's scum.

[Robz888]

Robz, which part of my Faust stance post claim did you find most scummy?

The part I singled out when I first voted for you.

[Teproc]

Well I can switch to vote: mail-mi, but I don't think the support is there. Might as well try I guess. His vote on chairs is scummy as well as his "Voltaire always tries to lynch me" defense, which is verifiably false as well as being generally scummy.

[Teproc]

Faust (5) : ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru, yuma
Eevee (2) : 2.7, faust
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, Teproc
liopoil (2) : Eevee, chairs
2.7 (2) : mail-mi, Robz

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[2.71828.....]

could someone please quickly summarize the case on mail-mi.  I will do the same for eevee

[faust]

The Case on mail-mi, or Why We Really Should Lynch Him D1 This Time

unvote for sure. Chairs is 99% town I am thinking.

vote: Voltaire too many town reads so early in the game.

Since when is this scummy/a reason to vote someone?

vote: Voltaire rage vote. I hate hate hate "secret cases" even if they're "secret town slips." Remember the last time someone did this ? Yeah, they were scum.

Since when does mail-mi rage vote?

Oh scum totally tries gutsy plans. All the time.

*squints* Really? D1? Really? Cite examples.

The one that you brought up: Ash&co. in RMM9 (Jimmmm's game) being all on or all off.

That's completely different from a plan to misunderstand the setup D1. That's what we're talking about. Early D1 individual plans.

Okay, I can't think of any specific examples. But i am not going to discredit scum being gutsy on D1. It is very possible.

Statement with no evidence.

He then does his sheeping, of not lynching chairs, of giving yuma a D1 pass, of plan-less ash, of the case on faust, of the case on lio.

He then has the post where he states I have a bias against him (admittedly true) and claims that town will lose if we lynch him, statistically. I'll let yuma take it from here:

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

After being called out, mail-mi claims he was only semi-serious! This is the second time he has done this, after claiming his first vote on me (way back at the top of this post) was semi-serious.

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

I think I only bring up biases when I'm scum.

and I think bringing up the metastat of mail-mi not being alive at the end of the game is scummy... I don't think these games offer a large enough sampling size nor a reliable enough set of variables to draw any conclusions from in this area... unless you are trying to manipulate people into thinking a certain set of conclusions...

Bolded that for you.

Then he votes chairs anyway, despite his previous sheeping of the "chairs is probably a PR". 

So, I think mail-mi is committing the scum tell of "oh crap, that thing I did was scummy - I was just kidding!" in addition to the fact that he has a general anti-town meta. This lets him live for a very long time, because players (like me in the past) keep saying "lynch mafia not scum" and he gets to skate by. mail-mi has also resorted to irrelevant-to-the-game defenses (like the stats).

The following players have voted mail-mi, stated a willingness to vote mail-mi, or have had him in their most recent lynch pool:

Voltaire, chairs, faust, Robz, (yuma?), e, (lio?)

That's seven, and I probably missed some people/some people would vote him to cause a lynch.

PPE: A lot posted while I was writing this.

[Voltaire]

as well as

His vote on chairs is scummy as well as his "Voltaire always tries to lynch me" defense, which is verifiably false as well as being generally scummy.

[Voltaire]

Less than two hours until deadline. I think faust, Eevee, mail-mi, and e(?) are our candidates. Anyone voting for not-them needs to move.

[2.71828.....]

The case on Eevee:

Began as a D1 Lynch a Lurker candidate.  Voltaire then asks him why we should not lynch him.

His response:

Are there some specific issues people would like to see me address?

Where have you been/what have you been doing, I guess.

Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

I haven't been VLA, if that's what you are asking? Just.. day 1, I just don't see things I find worth commenting that much. I've chimed in every time I've had something reasonable to offer.

I won't claim that my play has been particularly towny, self meta arguments are dumb. If you want a semi-random lynch of someone who is matching both their town- and scummetas and is not standing out enough, I guess I'm a fine choice. That's the method that landed me on liopoil, pretty much. I'm not scum though.

So he says that he is fine as a semi-random lynch, and that he voted liopoil for being a fine semi-random lynch as well.  Then there is this:

I try to have my voting history / my reads speak for my towniness - I think that's the hardest thing for scum to manipulate. Obviously that's not very helpul day 1 before the first flip,
so just trying to survive that.

Basically, Eevee is saying here that I hope to survive D1, because I can be really useful with my reads in later days, while I am not that good right now.

Well, when I reread mailmi, he seemed scummier at first, but more recently he has made some posts with lighhearted jokes that read to me as someone who isn't nervous or forcing their contributions. yuma had the longer vla, hasn't maybe quite been the leader I'd expect him to, but then again it's kind of hard when you miss a good chunk of the day. yuma too is often nightkilled, he isn't a very good day 1 lynch regardless.

Eevee is definitely not nervous or forcing contributions.  He gives mail-mi a town read for that.  Maybe hoping that people will give him a town read for the same thing?  That is just speculation though.
Then his final quote:

Okay, so the wiki being offline really sucks and honesty I'd prefer if someone just posted all the info. The current situation just feels very unfair to scum.

However, while faust's inactivity could be real life-infused, it clearly is scummy here. I approve of the lynch, all the while knowing my jumping on the wagon will look suspicious to some.

Holding off voting until faust gets a chance to react, because I'll surely be on before the deadline, so why not.

/kickball

hedging

So summary:
His D1 play matches scum performances in GoT (apparently, I don't really know but other people have said this is the case) and Toy Story.

He has given some very soft hints that he is much better in future days and that we should really not lynch him today.  Again, nothing over the top, just very careful, calm statements that make him look good for future days.

He has been "active" today but not too present.  He did not disappear or anything to get prodded.  He has posted, given some thoughts, but has not had too much that really puts him on the map.  Waiting and Watching.  Lurking.  And hedging

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.15

谁要死？

2.7... (2): mail-mi, Robz
Eevee (2):  2.7...,  faust
liopoil (2): Eevee, chairs
faust (5): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, Teproc

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:20 p.m. Forum time.
Deadline in 1 hr 37 minutes

[Robz888]

I'm only going to vote for faust, 2.7, or Eevee.

[Voltaire]

Robz what do you make of

e trying to start an Eevee wagon when it looked like faust was an easy lynch is making me doubt he's scum.

[Voltaire]

Holy balls. I forgot my dentist appointment. I'm leaving now (already late for it) and going to vote: Eevee. God speed, everyone.

[Robz888]

Robz what do you make of

e trying to start an Eevee wagon when it looked like faust was an easy lynch is making me doubt he's scum.

Oh, well that's obvious, scum opposes the mainstream lynch all the time for town cred.

Actually, the better argument against 2.7 being scum is one you missed: He had the opportunity to hammer faust when I put faust to L-1, and made clear that the alternative lynch to faust was 2.7. When I realized that was the case, I unvoted, but anyway 2.7 could have spared himself big time in that respect.

Of course in both cases he might just believe that ultimately he is safe, and indeed, he may be.

[Eevee]

im here.

e, that's not hegding, it's the opposite of that!

not that I think hedging is particularly scummy, it's unreasonable to expect any kind of certainty on most of the matters day 1. Nothing wrong with realizing your limitations.

[Teproc]

There's a difference between opposing the mainstream lynch and trying to launch a third lynch when there are two wagons, one of which is on you.

[Eevee]

vote: faust

for self-preservation first. I'll think about which of the viable lynches I like best now.

[Eevee]

L-1!

[Robz888]

There's a difference between opposing the mainstream lynch and trying to launch a third lynch when there are two wagons, one of which is on you.

It's just not that acquitting, to me. Bold scum play is often rewarded. I see what you are saying though.

[Teproc]

vote: Eevee Looks like mail-mi is indee not happening, and Eevee is the next best thing.

[faust]

So, right now 5 people are willing to vote Eevee. The rest is either Eevee or absent. Lekkit? Ichimaru? chairs? liopoil? Where are you?

[Eevee]

i'd prefer mailmi to faust if the votes were here.

[Robz888]

So, right now 5 people are willing to vote Eevee. The rest is either Eevee or absent. Lekkit? Ichimaru? chairs? liopoil? Where are you?

Ichimaru was here recently, the rest have done like almost nothing... especially chairs. Liopoil only contributed when he was under pressure. He pushed hard to get rid of that pressure and then disappeared. I'm totally fine to lynch him, by the way.

[2.71828.....]

vote: faust

for self-preservation first. I'll think about which of the viable lynches I like best now.

"preservation voting" is a thing?  I wonder if you would have come out with the hammer had we already been L-1

[Eevee]

well faust is way preferable of a lynch to myself..

[Robz888]

I don't find preservation voting remotely scummy, if I were in Eevee's position I would also be voting for whoever the leading alternate lynch was.

[Teproc]

Agreed.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So, right now 5 people are willing to vote Eevee. The rest is either Eevee or absent. Lekkit? Ichimaru? chairs? liopoil? Where are you?

I'm here. I agree that Eevee has been lurking a ton. But aside from that, I don't really have much of a scumread on him. I'm fine with lynching Liopoil if there's interest there. 2.7 had the chance to save himself, and he didn't--that reads town to me, but it could also be a roundabout scum ploy for town cred.
For now though, I think I'll keep my vote on Faust.
I should still be pretty active up until the deadline though, so if there's a last minute shift to one of the other wagons, I'm willing to join it.

[Robz888]

I mean, is there anyway we can all move to liopoil? I'm not sure enough people are here. If I have to pick between faust and Eevee I think I'm voting for faust.

[Lekkit]

I'm kind of here. On my phone, so not as active as I'd like. I still prefer faust over both Eevee and liopoil.

[faust]

Well, I fear we won't get another lynch but me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well Faust is at L-1, and we have less than an hour to go.
I guess it's possible to switch to someone else. But Faust just seems like the best lynch on a lot of levels. I'd vote Liopoil, but I don't think I'd vote Eevee--there's just not enough in that case to convince me. Let's see how useful he really is later on.
What happens if we don't lynch by the deadline? Is there a time-extension or something?

PPE: I think he's right.

[mail-mi]

Aw looks like e isn't happening. vote: Eevee Faust lied and it was bad but not scummy bad.

Oh and I have mobile (for the time being) so I might be on for deadline.

PPE: and I'm fine with it but prefer Eevee.

[Teproc]

If we don't lynch on deadline, no one is lynched.

I'd rather lynch faust than no lynch so I'll do that at some point if it's needed, but there's still a little time left.

[2.71828.....]

Eevee (4):  2.7...,  faust, Teproc, mail-mi
faust (6): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee

7 to lynch

[Robz888]

^ I don't think that's accurate. I know VOltaire left his vote on Eevee, didn't he?

[Ichimaru Gin]

If we don't lynch on deadline, no one is lynched.

I'd rather lynch faust than no lynch so I'll do that at some point if it's needed, but there's still a little time left.

Crap. That seems really bad. No-lynch normally hurts town right?

But I agree. I mean as long as someone's waiting to hammer Faust, we can see how the other wagons play out.

[2.71828.....]

Eevee (5):  2.7...,  faust, Teproc, mail-mi, Voltaire
faust (6): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee

7 to lynch

oops.  Robz is right

[Teproc]

So chairs and Robz are the only ones not voting for Eevee / faust right now. Even if chairs joins on Eevee (did he say something about not being around for deadline), we'd be missing one, so I think you can hammer if you want Robz.

[faust]

Well, it would be great to hear from liopoil. Has he said whether he'll be around?

[mail-mi]

Eevee (4):  2.7...,  faust, Teproc, mail-mi
faust (6): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee

7 to lynch

Debating with self..... Still debating.... Should I hammer? I can't decide. Well, we have a little more time.

PPE: okay I think I will. vote: faust

[2.71828.....]

Eevee (4):  2.7...,  faust, Teproc, mail-mi
faust (6): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee

7 to lynch

Debating with self..... Still debating.... Should I hammer? I can't decide. Well, we have a little more time.

PPE: okay I think I will. vote: faust

what, you didn't want to hear from liopoil? Not that he would have shown up.  I don't know if he said anything one way or the other

[mail-mi]

Eevee (4):  2.7...,  faust, Teproc, mail-mi
faust (6): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee

7 to lynch

Debating with self..... Still debating.... Should I hammer? I can't decide. Well, we have a little more time.

PPE: okay I think I will. vote: faust

what, you didn't want to hear from liopoil? Not that he would have shown up.  I don't know if he said anything one way or the other

Knowing him, the likelihood that he showed up in the next half hour is small. And he's probably scum so yeah.

[faust]

Eevee (4):  2.7...,  faust, Teproc, mail-mi
faust (6): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee

7 to lynch

Debating with self..... Still debating.... Should I hammer? I can't decide. Well, we have a little more time.

PPE: okay I think I will. vote: faust

what, you didn't want to hear from liopoil? Not that he would have shown up.  I don't know if he said anything one way or the other

He didn't say anything and his last post was only half an hour before I said I lied. Weird.

[faust]

And here I was, thinking I could get my first self-hammer in

[2.71828.....]

And here I was, thinking I could get my first self-hammer in

I don't think that would be a stat that you generally want to have on record

[faust]

Lynch ashersky for me!

[Teproc]

Not too happy with the way this day went... hopefully faust's flip will be useful but I think he's going to flip VT.

[mail-mi]

And here I was, thinking I could get my first self-hammer in

Hehe I already have one.

[faust]

And here I was, thinking I could get my first self-hammer in

I don't think that would be a stat that you generally want to have on record

Why? I mean, I could share some of the light of the glorious Morgrim...

[faust]

Not too happy with the way this day went... hopefully faust's flip will be useful but I think he's going to flip VT.

I will.

[2.71828.....]

one thing is certain: Faust has a terrible D1 record for getting lynched

[faust]

one thing is certain: Faust has a terrible D1 record for getting lynched

Only if yuma is in the game!

[Teproc]

At least he was there this time ! Three day 1 lynches almost in a row is pretty insane. And, really, it's three in a row for games in which he was a viable lynch, since he was an IC in Chocolate.

[Robz888]

That's true, although it's hard to say how it's anyone's fault but his own this time.

[Voltaire]

Just got back what's going on?

[liopoil]

Dang, I got lucky and was able to check in... looks like I'm too late. looks like faust got lynched, which is good. but he's claiminng VT?? madness!! I'm not caught up, so I don't know if I believe him or not. we'll find out soon I guess.

[Teproc]

mail-mi hammered faust.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Dang, I got lucky and was able to check in... looks like I'm too late. looks like faust got lynched, which is good. but he's claiminng VT?? madness!! I'm not caught up, so I don't know if I believe him or not. we'll find out soon I guess.

Does he really have any motivation to lie now?
(not sarcastic question).

[Voltaire]

mail-mi hammered faust.

Oh of course he did.

Catching up...

[Robz888]

Dang, I got lucky and was able to check in... looks like I'm too late. looks like faust got lynched, which is good. but he's claiminng VT?? madness!! I'm not caught up, so I don't know if I believe him or not. we'll find out soon I guess.

Does he really have any motivation to lie now?
(not sarcastic question).

Not really, but lynched scum often lies post-lynch anyway.

[Teproc]

Yeah scum likes to toy with town when they get lynched. Wasn't it in MVI where there was even a very meaningful conversation with a lynched scum, eHalcyon I think ? But that was because it was multiball (two opposing scum teams) I guess.

[liopoil]

Yes, he does. if he admitted to being scum, we could discuss who that implicates, and thus have a better night for our PRs. I don't blame yoyu guys for not waiting, because I probably would have supported the lynch anyway, and because I did say I wasn't going to be able to make it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So do we get a mod message telling us what he really was?
Or does that only happen for people that get night killed?

[Robz888]

So do we get a mod message telling us what he really was?
Or does that only happen for people that get night killed?

Yes, we'll find out in 3 minutes.

[Voltaire]

Well if faust flips VT I'm fine with this lynch.

My town narrative was predicated on him being the Hider trying to tell us he was going to hide behind ash. So eh.

[Robz888]

Well if faust flips VT I'm fine with this lynch.

My town narrative was predicated on him being the Hider trying to tell us he was going to hide behind ash. So eh.

Oh! What? That's random.

[2.71828.....]

Well if faust flips VT I'm fine with this lynch.

My town narrative was predicated on him being the Hider trying to tell us he was going to hide behind ash. So eh.

that seems flimsy

PPE: Robz

[Voltaire]

Well if faust flips VT I'm fine with this lynch.

My town narrative was predicated on him being the Hider trying to tell us he was going to hide behind ash. So eh.

Oh! What? That's random.

No, I went back and re-read faust  after he said he lied thinking "What would he do this as town?" and he asked some Hider questions and everything and I thought, oh, this could actually totally be a pro-town way to tell us his target & everything.

[Voltaire]

But if faust flips VT there's no town narrative I can see and as such I think this lynch was fine.

[EFHW]

THREAD LOCKED

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1。Final

谁要死？

2.7... (1): Robz
Eevee (3):  2.7...,  faust, Teproc
liopoil (1): chairs
faust (7): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee, mail-mi
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it took 7 to lynch.
b]
Deadline in 1 hr 37 minutes

[EFHW]

Faust was Lu Meng, a Vanilla Townie.

Day 2 starts Saturday December 21st at 2 pm.

Night actions (if any) are due in 48 hours.  Please cc me and Archetype in case mcmc is not back.

[Galzria]

Thread still locked!

[EFHW]

Would the night never end?  When finally the sun rose, Eevee, Lu Su, the Town-aligned role cop was dead.  Now what?

DAY 2 begins

THREAD UNLOCKED

[mail-mi]

vote: e

[liopoil]

well, at least we can't mislynch him now! it also means that 1, 3, or 4 Rs were rolled, which for each die rolled has a 1/20 chance.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.1

第二天

2.7... (1): mail-mi

Not Voting (0): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Voltaire, 2.7..., Teproc, chairs, Robz888

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Tuesday, December 31st at 6 pm.

[yuma]

GAH!

Apparently this needs to be said... again... I keep thinking we are beyond this point, but we never seem to get past it.

1. Don't lie as town. Ever. (well maybe not ever, but pretty darn close) you might think your lie helps town, but... it doesn't. In all my games I can think of one lie that helped town (Galz in Buffy claiming to be a 1-shot cop instead of a full cop, vey innocuous, not blatant, just simple little elegant deception). But the rule is don't lie. Think a really long time before you do. But really, just don't.

2. Don't claim unless you are at L-1 with intent to hammer, unless you have a guilty result. Just don't. And don't even claim then unless you think it necessary. Few exceptions to the rule, but in all likelyhood if you are thinking of doing it you shouldn't.

Faust, I like you, I like that you have joined the community, but you blew it here. And why did you wait until after I had left for the day to admit to lying... not that I would have reacted any differently that everyone else... but still... that was so frustrating being able to read the posts as they came in, but not able to post... GAH... bad my whole work day bad.

Seriously guys. I am not saying I am an IC. But the above needs to be take seriously, seriously... Seriously.

[yuma]

vote: e

Why?

[yuma]

vote: e

Why?

No. Screw it. vote: mail-mi. I am tired of second guessing people and trying to get beyond their anti-town play. if you put down a vote, tell me why. I dont' care if you already explained a scummy read a few posts above... reference that post. Do something. Failure to do so means that I have to do more work which means that I might not do it... because I and others are busy. So just explain your vote, until then you get a vote from me. Why? Because you didn't explain your vote.

[yuma]

Oh and day1 post count (slightly off since from this post:

1. Voltaire - 160
2. Robz888 - 115
3. mail-mi - 51
4. Chairs - 35
5. Ashersky - 109
6. Yuma - 78
7. Ichimaru Gin - 47
8. Lekkit - 32
9. Liopoil - 59
10. Teproc - 107
11. 2.7 - 149
12. Eevee - 42
13. Faust - 88

[mail-mi]

Ok.  I am going to do something crazy. 

vote: chairs

Yes, I get that he could be a PR.  I get that.  I saw it as soon as Voltaire mentioned the secret case before he had to explain it to the whole world

But

he could also be scum. (or the SK)

JK9++ could have up to 7(!) town PRs.  that is a lot.  Chairs could also be our only PR.  Or he could be one of many.  We could have a SK.  We might not.  Which is why JK9++ is impossible to "solve" D1.  Which will make it super fun later on, but right now is kind of annoying since we don't know anything.

However, I am looking at viable lynches and who we will actually learn something about going into D2.  We will learn stuff about chairs.  I also think we have the votes to pull it off.

I believe mail-mi, Ashersky, Lekkit, Eevee, myself will all vote chairs.  The interesting thing is that this basically is almost all of everyone's scum reads (except liopoil).  So this is also intriguing if he does flip scum.  Now, if he flips town PR we will all feel bad and have nice little accusations thrown at us.

But the point is, we can learn more from a chairs lynch than any other lynch right now.

This post gives me all the wrong feelings. Not the vote, cause I think the vote is fine. The entire post. Like, "Yeah he could be a PR but guess what--we have could have 7!" just rubs me all the wrong ways. vote: e to have it somewhere before faust comes.

Oh wait, deadline is 2:20, which is 12:20, which means I won't be on until then. Well, vote: liopoil because he's more viable.

@yuma, it's this. I know I also voted for chairs, but the reasoning is all wrong to me.

[liopoil]

GAH!

Apparently this needs to be said... again... I keep thinking we are beyond this point, but we never seem to get past it.

1. Don't lie as town. Ever. (well maybe not ever, but pretty darn close) you might think your lie helps town, but... it doesn't. In all my games I can think of one lie that helped town (Galz in Buffy claiming to be a 1-shot cop instead of a full cop, vey innocuous, not blatant, just simple little elegant deception). But the rule is don't lie. Think a really long time before you do. But really, just don't.

2. Don't claim unless you are at L-1 with intent to hammer, unless you have a guilty result. Just don't. And don't even claim then unless you think it necessary. Few exceptions to the rule, but in all likelyhood if you are thinking of doing it you shouldn't.

Faust, I like you, I like that you have joined the community, but you blew it here. And why did you wait until after I had left for the day to admit to lying... not that I would have reacted any differently that everyone else... but still... that was so frustrating being able to read the posts as they came in, but not able to post... GAH... bad my whole work day bad.

Seriously guys. I am not saying I am an IC. But the above needs to be take seriously, seriously... Seriously.

mostly agree with this. claiming a PR as VT specifically bad, but as PR there are more situations where it could be acceptable. But yeah, please be certain that what you are doing is pro-town, not just that "hey, doing this is more fun! and it might not be totally terrible!" And that's when it comes to role claiming... I think my little lie yesterday about the setup was fine, yes?

but in general, we as a town should be able to lynch all liars, and be successful. We don't want scum to be able to say "I lied, sorry"  when they get counterclaimed when they fakeclaim.

[chairs]

I think mail-mi's argument is sound here.  vote: e.

I can't remember offhand what interactions Eevee had D1, I'll try to review tomorrow.

[yuma]

I think my little lie yesterday about the setup was fine, yes?

yes, i think yours was fine, although ultimately not useful but that wasn't known at the time... but again, even these sort of little lies can sometimes cause more damage than good, trying to trap players, etc, etc. there is a place for them, but they need to be done carefully and well thought out. the whole point is that if town is truthful it will force scum to be truthful except when the can't be and therefore easier to catch when they aren't. everytime town lies makes it easier for scum to lie.

[2.71828.....]

So.  Eevee was a role cop.  So I guess that was why he said his reads would be stronger starting D2.

[Voltaire]

And I think if faust had actually been the Hider, what he did was an interesting, maybe good way to tell us who his target would be. If he had been the Hider. And if it had not gotten him lynched.

So yeah.

I'll need to re-look at the faust wagon when I have time. I assume the Eevee kill was just successful PR hunting.

[2.71828.....]

On the side:  And can we do a soft deadline of some sort for the 30th?  I know I will not be around to vote on New Year's Eve. 

About what happened:  I can definitely see why scum lynched Eevee.  I mean, I basically breadcrumbed Eevee into looking like a PR with all of my "oh he will be useful later but not on D1" talk.  I totally was not looking for Eevee to be a town PR, I was looking for him to be scum, so I did not even consider the possibility that he really might have been much more useful in future days (as a PR).  Clearly scum, since they knew he wasn't scum, picked up on that and thought he would be a good kill.  So I am probably responsible (somewhat) for his death.  Although, had he been more active and actually given reads and stuff then he might still be alive. Another reason he makes a good kill for them is because he had no strong reads D1.  At all.  I mean, he said liopoil was his lynch of choice, but also said he ended up on that vote through PoE and "random mislynch options" and Robz' toy story reasoning. 

[liopoil]

About what happened:  I can definitely see why scum lynched Eevee.  I mean, I basically breadcrumbed Eevee into looking like a PR with all of my "oh he will be useful later but not on D1" talk.  I totally was not looking for Eevee to be a town PR, I was looking for him to be scum, so I did not even consider the possibility that he really might have been much more useful in future days (as a PR).  Clearly scum, since they knew he wasn't scum, picked up on that and thought he would be a good kill.  So I am probably responsible (somewhat) for his death.  Although, had he been more active and actually given reads and stuff then he might still be alive. Another reason he makes a good kill for them is because he had no strong reads D1.  At all.  I mean, he said liopoil was his lynch of choice, but also said he ended up on that vote through PoE and "random mislynch options" and Robz' toy story reasoning. 

Vote: E

I think that he as scum thought eevee was a PR, and his talk about him being useful later was scum thinking that he was a PR, and so in the case that eevee ends up claiming at L-1 he looks townie.  Scum almost certainly killed eevee because they thought eevee was a PR. Plus, E has too many reasons explaining why scum killed eevee, clearly has been thinking about who scum should kill a lot.

[Robz888]

GAH!

Apparently this needs to be said... again... I keep thinking we are beyond this point, but we never seem to get past it.

1. Don't lie as town. Ever. (well maybe not ever, but pretty darn close) you might think your lie helps town, but... it doesn't. In all my games I can think of one lie that helped town (Galz in Buffy claiming to be a 1-shot cop instead of a full cop, vey innocuous, not blatant, just simple little elegant deception). But the rule is don't lie. Think a really long time before you do. But really, just don't.

2. Don't claim unless you are at L-1 with intent to hammer, unless you have a guilty result. Just don't. And don't even claim then unless you think it necessary. Few exceptions to the rule, but in all likelyhood if you are thinking of doing it you shouldn't.

Faust, I like you, I like that you have joined the community, but you blew it here. And why did you wait until after I had left for the day to admit to lying... not that I would have reacted any differently that everyone else... but still... that was so frustrating being able to read the posts as they came in, but not able to post... GAH... bad my whole work day bad.

Seriously guys. I am not saying I am an IC. But the above needs to be take seriously, seriously... Seriously.

I consider the above a truthbomb. Well said, yuma. That was just a complete debacle. I'm always pushing back against yuma's insistent that "If we lynch X for bad reasons (like a supposed scumslip) we can't analyze the wagon!" This may actually be the time where I share that fear. Faust was just, a likely scum candidate based on his lying and disappearing, or at worst a townie who compromised Day 1, and we were running out of time. Does scum join that wagon? Probably some do, some don't, and it's going to be darn hard to try and guess since the wagon was justifiable, but not so extremely justifiable that we can like suspect people for not opposing it.

Except maybe 2.7, who I noted yesterday had I think the most evolvingly scummy reaction to all the faust stuff. I'll try to summarize when I have time.

[Robz888]

About what happened:  I can definitely see why scum lynched Eevee.  I mean, I basically breadcrumbed Eevee into looking like a PR with all of my "oh he will be useful later but not on D1" talk.  I totally was not looking for Eevee to be a town PR, I was looking for him to be scum, so I did not even consider the possibility that he really might have been much more useful in future days (as a PR).  Clearly scum, since they knew he wasn't scum, picked up on that and thought he would be a good kill.  So I am probably responsible (somewhat) for his death.  Although, had he been more active and actually given reads and stuff then he might still be alive. Another reason he makes a good kill for them is because he had no strong reads D1.  At all.  I mean, he said liopoil was his lynch of choice, but also said he ended up on that vote through PoE and "random mislynch options" and Robz' toy story reasoning. 

Vote: E

I think that he as scum thought eevee was a PR, and his talk about him being useful later was scum thinking that he was a PR, and so in the case that eevee ends up claiming at L-1 he looks townie.  Scum almost certainly killed eevee because they thought eevee was a PR. Plus, E has too many reasons explaining why scum killed eevee, clearly has been thinking about who scum should kill a lot.

Yes, BUT I think I noticed 2.7 doing this in Tory Story mafia too, when he was not mafia. I'll have to check.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm considering the e wagon. But I also want to go over and review again what occurred with Faust--in light of him flipping VT. Why did he feel so strongly that Ash was scum? His behavior didn't really make sense to me--yet his goal seemed to be taking down Ash. And he obv felt pretty strongly about it.

Also, concerning Faust's meta, is he relatively new to this community? Was his behavior pretty much in line with what he normally does, or was this an unexpected gambit? There may not be a lot we can learn from his wagon, but it got some of the strongest reactions D1--and at least served the purpose of stirring things up a little bit.
I'd like to hear from Ash about everything that's happened since his absence.

[ashersky]

I'm considering the e wagon. But I also want to go over and review again what occurred with Faust--in light of him flipping VT. Why did he feel so strongly that Ash was scum? His behavior didn't really make sense to me--yet his goal seemed to be taking down Ash. And he obv felt pretty strongly about it.

Also, concerning Faust's meta, is he relatively new to this community? Was his behavior pretty much in line with what he normally does, or was this an unexpected gambit? There may not be a lot we can learn from his wagon, but it got some of the strongest reactions D1--and at least served the purpose of stirring things up a little bit.
I'd like to hear from Ash about everything that's happened since his absence.

No idea why he was tunneling me.  Probably OMGUS for me tunneling him.

He was out of character compared to his previous games.  I would not have expected him to torpedo town with town lies.

[liopoil]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

[Voltaire]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

Yes. You wanted us to lynch someone 100% of the time with 100% certainty they were scum.

[ashersky]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

I had a strong read that I trusted.  I've rarely been more sure of something in a mafia game.  And, well, he was lying.  That basically proves me right.

His alignment didn't match his behavior or his actions.  I still stand by my read that he was 100% scummy.  Just turned out he was playing against his wincon.

[Robz888]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

I had a strong read that I trusted.  I've rarely been more sure of something in a mafia game.  And, well, he was lying.  That basically proves me right.

His alignment didn't match his behavior or his actions.  I still stand by my read that he was 100% scummy.  Just turned out he was playing against his wincon.

No. No no no. You expressed the 100% confidence read BEFORE faust lied about his role. Let's not rewrite history here. What did he do that made you so confident in the first place, before all that?

[Robz888]

Vote: ashersky until he gives some explanation that accounts for his 100% scum read on faust, without resorting to the excuse of faust's fake claim. That's not valid for you; you were confident BEFORE the fake claim.

[liopoil]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

I had a strong read that I trusted.  I've rarely been more sure of something in a mafia game.  And, well, he was lying.  That basically proves me right.

His alignment didn't match his behavior or his actions.  I still stand by my read that he was 100% scummy.  Just turned out he was playing against his wincon.

100% scummy doesn't mean 100% certain. you do realize that if you were actually 100% certain about something a million times, then you would be correct a million times? not 999,999 times! because faust flipped town, you either weren't really 100% certain, or you are scum.

[ashersky]

Vote: ashersky until he gives some explanation that accounts for his 100% scum read on faust, without resorting to the excuse of faust's fake claim. That's not valid for you; you were confident BEFORE the fake claim.

vote: Robz

OMGUS, plus, he's alive.  Town!Robz does NOT live to D2.

[Robz888]

Vote: ashersky until he gives some explanation that accounts for his 100% scum read on faust, without resorting to the excuse of faust's fake claim. That's not valid for you; you were confident BEFORE the fake claim.

vote: Robz

OMGUS, plus, he's alive.  Town!Robz does NOT live to D2.

Except dozens of times. Why don't you just answer the question?

[ashersky]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

I had a strong read that I trusted.  I've rarely been more sure of something in a mafia game.  And, well, he was lying.  That basically proves me right.

His alignment didn't match his behavior or his actions.  I still stand by my read that he was 100% scummy.  Just turned out he was playing against his wincon.

100% scummy doesn't mean 100% certain. you do realize that if you were actually 100% certain about something a million times, then you would be correct a million times? not 999,999 times! because faust flipped town, you either weren't really 100% certain, or you are scum.

Have you never been 100% certain of something, and then you turned out to be wrong?  That doesn't change the fact that you thought you were 100% certain.

There's a difference between certainty and accuracy.  Go read RSP to see plenty of people 100% certain something is true, even when it isn't provable with a flip (although I guess when you die, you find out).

[ashersky]

Vote: ashersky until he gives some explanation that accounts for his 100% scum read on faust, without resorting to the excuse of faust's fake claim. That's not valid for you; you were confident BEFORE the fake claim.

vote: Robz

OMGUS, plus, he's alive.  Town!Robz does NOT live to D2.

Except dozens of times. Why don't you just answer the question?

What question?  I was 100% certain Faust was scum.  Turns out I was wrong.  That does not change the fact that I was 100% certain.  I wasn't 100% accurate, obviously.

I had a huge scum read on the guy the entire day.  He clearly descended into madness, which just added to it.  He WAS scummy, before and after the lie.  The lie just solidified it for everyone else.  I already knew.

Again, turned out I was wrong.  Not the first time.

[liopoil]

oh yeah, ashersky, why did you claim to be 100% sure?

I had a strong read that I trusted.  I've rarely been more sure of something in a mafia game.  And, well, he was lying.  That basically proves me right.

His alignment didn't match his behavior or his actions.  I still stand by my read that he was 100% scummy.  Just turned out he was playing against his wincon.

100% scummy doesn't mean 100% certain. you do realize that if you were actually 100% certain about something a million times, then you would be correct a million times? not 999,999 times! because faust flipped town, you either weren't really 100% certain, or you are scum.

Have you never been 100% certain of something, and then you turned out to be wrong?  That doesn't change the fact that you thought you were 100% certain.

There's a difference between certainty and accuracy.  Go read RSP to see plenty of people 100% certain something is true, even when it isn't provable with a flip (although I guess when you die, you find out).

Nope, I've never been 100% certain about anything really...

[ashersky]

Nope, I've never been 100% certain about anything really...

Um, okay then?  I don't know what to say to that.  You've never been sure 100% sure that your parents are really your parents, or that any number multiplied by zero is zero (I'm assuming there's a math edgecase to this...), or that you and that high school girlfriend were going to be together forever?

[Robz888]

Vote: ashersky until he gives some explanation that accounts for his 100% scum read on faust, without resorting to the excuse of faust's fake claim. That's not valid for you; you were confident BEFORE the fake claim.

vote: Robz

OMGUS, plus, he's alive.  Town!Robz does NOT live to D2.

Except dozens of times. Why don't you just answer the question?

What question?  I was 100% certain Faust was scum.  Turns out I was wrong.  That does not change the fact that I was 100% certain.  I wasn't 100% accurate, obviously.

I had a huge scum read on the guy the entire day.  He clearly descended into madness, which just added to it.  He WAS scummy, before and after the lie.  The lie just solidified it for everyone else.  I already knew.

Again, turned out I was wrong.  Not the first time.

You're avoiding the question! WHY were you 100% certain about faust?

[Voltaire]

Vote: ashersky until he gives some explanation that accounts for his 100% scum read on faust, without resorting to the excuse of faust's fake claim. That's not valid for you; you were confident BEFORE the fake claim.

vote: ashersky because this, and also his OMGUS on Robz (an attempt to discredit a vote on him - pretty sure he did this D1 too).

I think ash is scum who is trying to create as much chaos as possible.

[ashersky]

vote: ashersky

No one listens, and I'm annoyed.  I'd rather you lynch me than not.

[ashersky]

You're avoiding the question! WHY were you 100% certain about faust?

He was scummy.  I picked up on it.  I laid out my case multiple times on D1.

[Voltaire]

Except what you pointed out is not something town does, which I pointed out.

[liopoil]

Nope, I've never been 100% certain about anything really...

Um, okay then?  I don't know what to say to that.  You've never been sure 100% sure that your parents are really your parents, or that any number multiplied by zero is zero (I'm assuming there's a math edgecase to this...), or that you and that high school girlfriend were going to be together forever?

sure, there's always a barely non-zero chance aliens are infiltrating my brain or something ridiculous like that.

You're avoiding the question! WHY were you 100% certain about faust?

He was scummy.  I picked up on it.  I laid out my case multiple times on D1.

pretty sure the point is why you thought the case was good enough to be so certain. We all saw the same things you did, none of us reacted anywhere close to the way you did.

[Voltaire]

Except what you pointed out is not something town does, which I pointed out.

Oh pthpth. Not something scum does.

[Robz888]

vote: ashersky

No one listens, and I'm annoyed.  I'd rather you lynch me than not.

We listened! We actually lynched the person you wanted, and that didn't work. I have no problem with you being wrong. Town!you has strong early reads that turn out wrong all the time.

But you can't even tell why you thought the way you thought. So how is this not scum ash trying to get away with a poor imitation of his usual shtick?

[liopoil]

yeah, usually when ashersky does the crazy town!ash thing I get the sense that it's crazy town!ash doing it. Not this time. And robz I think also reads ashersky well, especially when ash is town. I'm ready to vote for ashersky, but it's early in the day, I don't even want to put him at L-2. I don't think everyone has even posted yet, we might have a guilty result on someone or the like.

[mail-mi]

You're avoiding the question! WHY were you 100% certain about faust?

He was scummy.  I picked up on it.  I laid out my case multiple times on D1.

How was he scummy?

[ashersky]

yeah, usually when ashersky does the crazy town!ash thing I get the sense that it's crazy town!ash doing it. Not this time. And robz I think also reads ashersky well, especially when ash is town. I'm ready to vote for ashersky, but it's early in the day, I don't even want to put him at L-2. I don't think everyone has even posted yet, we might have a guilty result on someone or the like.

I think you should follow your cold heart and vote.  You think your parents might be aliens.  That's harsh.

[ashersky]

You're avoiding the question! WHY were you 100% certain about faust?

He was scummy.  I picked up on it.  I laid out my case multiple times on D1.

How was he scummy?

Really, I need to go back to my D1 posts and quote them?

He was looking for the easy mislynch, he reacted badly to pressure, he tried to shift conversations in the middle of topics, and then he lied about his role to try and "trap" someone, but really just could have resulted in outing a real town PR.

If the goal of D2 is to mislynch again, mislynch me.  I was adamantly convinced that faust was scum.  It was based on all of his posts, all of his words, all of his ideas.  Then it was based on his fake claim, which I and many others correctly pointed out as fake.  If you can't accept any of that, then lynch me out of the game.

[mail-mi]

You're avoiding the question! WHY were you 100% certain about faust?

He was scummy.  I picked up on it.  I laid out my case multiple times on D1.

How was he scummy?

Really, I need to go back to my D1 posts and quote them?

He was looking for the easy mislynch, he reacted badly to pressure, he tried to shift conversations in the middle of topics, and then he lied about his role to try and "trap" someone, but really just could have resulted in outing a real town PR.

If the goal of D2 is to mislynch again, mislynch me.  I was adamantly convinced that faust was scum.  It was based on all of his posts, all of his words, all of his ideas.  Then it was based on his fake claim, which I and many others correctly pointed out as fake.  If you can't accept any of that, then lynch me out of the game.

Thank you.

Now let's lynch e

[Ichimaru Gin]

Thank you.

Now let's lynch e

I'm down for that. I'm still not sure what to make of Ash, as I feel that he has a very strong meta which I don't fully understand. Still, his complete confidence that Faust was scum--even at a point when there wasn't much information to support the idea, is scummy considering the flip. I didn't get his early push to lynch Faust at all. Later, Faust was almost asking to be lynched--but Ash was pushing things way before then.

For now, I'm going to vote: e. He seemed overaware of Eevee's death. And indirectly "taking responsibility" for it just feels scummy to me as well. His failure to Hammer when he had the chance (and was himself in danger of getting lynched) feels like a ploy to get town credit as well.

[ashersky]

Vote Count ash.2.2

第二天[/color]

2.7... (5): mail-mi, chairs, liopoil, Ichimaru, ashersky
mail-mi (1): yuma
ashersky (2): Robz888, Voltaire

Not Voting (0): Lekkit, 2.7..., Teproc



vote: 2.7.  This is L-1.  That should get this game kickstarted.

[liopoil]

Vote: ashersky then, since he now only has 2 votes and I don't like E at L-1, though I have a scumread on him too.

[liopoil]

vote: 2.7

also, suspicious because no longer self-voting, even though he said:

I'd rather you lynch me than not.

scum!ashersky just realized that he's getting lynched, and the self-voting isn't helping, so he's diverting to e.

[ashersky]

vote: ashersky

[ashersky]

I'd look at the jumping bean that is liopoil, who's not sure of anything ever in his life, but also is happy to switch his vote once his possible partner hits L-1.

[yuma]

vote: ashersky

vote: ashersky

i am sorry you are annoyed and I see some of your points. But the moment you self vote it all becomes meaningless. This is especially frustrating given the conversation we had day1 along the same lines.

[liopoil]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

[yuma]

Nope, I've never been 100% certain about anything really...

Um, okay then?  I don't know what to say to that.  You've never been sure 100% sure that your parents are really your parents, or that any number multiplied by zero is zero (I'm assuming there's a math edgecase to this...), or that you and that high school girlfriend were going to be together forever?

I think both of you are approaching the word "certain" from different perspectives. liopoil's is obviously from a more math centric viewpoint, ash from a more... what is the word...? humanist? (not quite the word, but you get the point) that you guys have different backgrounds and ways of looking at things based off your own experiences so don't expect the other to interpret the same word the same way....

I for one know that when ash says "100% certain" he isn't actually "100% certain" from a mathematical point of view. If he was, he would have told us via a result, which wasn't possible at that point in the game so obviously he was more "100 certain that he was convinced"

[yuma]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

[yuma]

yeah, usually when ashersky does the crazy town!ash thing I get the sense that it's crazy town!ash doing it. Not this time. And robz I think also reads ashersky well, especially when ash is town. I'm ready to vote for ashersky, but it's early in the day, I don't even want to put him at L-2. I don't think everyone has even posted yet, we might have a guilty result on someone or the like.

I think you should follow your cold heart and vote.  You think your parents might be aliens.  That's harsh.

This is certainly going to end up as a quote in the Guess the Mafia Poster game some day... speaking of which nobody has guessed my clue there yet. It has been up for a long while... maybe I should just give it away?

[liopoil]

Nope, I've never been 100% certain about anything really...

Um, okay then?  I don't know what to say to that.  You've never been sure 100% sure that your parents are really your parents, or that any number multiplied by zero is zero (I'm assuming there's a math edgecase to this...), or that you and that high school girlfriend were going to be together forever?

I think both of you are approaching the word "certain" from different perspectives. liopoil's is obviously from a more math centric viewpoint, ash from a more... what is the word...? humanist? (not quite the word, but you get the point) that you guys have different backgrounds and ways of looking at things based off your own experiences so don't expect the other to interpret the same word the same way....

I for one know that when ash says "100% certain" he isn't actually "100% certain" from a mathematical point of view. If he was, he would have told us via a result, which wasn't possible at that point in the game so obviously he was more "100 certain that he was convinced"

fair enough. I mean, for all that it really matters I'm 100% certain my parents aren't aliens. If I were to put an actual percentage to it, it would have a lot of 9s on it. rounding up doesn't change much.

but was ashersky's percentage close enough to 100 that rounding up doesn't matter? if faust flipping town as surprising as my parents turning out to be aliens? no, I hope not.

[liopoil]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

[2.71828.....]

All right.  I am not ready to lynch anyone yet.  Let alone myself.

Plus, E has too many reasons explaining why scum killed eevee, clearly has been thinking about who scum should kill a lot.

For now, I'm going to vote: e. He seemed overaware of Eevee's death. And indirectly "taking responsibility" for it just feels scummy to me as well.

Let me ask a question:  why is it a bad thing to try to figure out why scum would kill who they did during the night?  I think it is very beneficial to town to consider these things.  I am glad that you are doing the same.  Oh wait.  You aren't.  You would much prefer to get a quick lynch in before anyone can say anything about it.  Before anyone can say anything about it.  Chairs is still alive in this game, right?

PPE: 2

[yuma]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

[Voltaire]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

This. Just lynch ash already.

[Voltaire]

Hate the e lynch right now.

[liopoil]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

[2.71828.....]

People who are behaving in an anti-town way right now:
Ashersky - I do not see how voting yourself is pro-town.  Please enlighten me.
Chairs - He has not been around this game since he came out anti-claim in such a way that led a few of us to believe that he is scum or town PR.

Now, just because they are acting in an anti-town way does not mean that they are scum.  I think both Faust and Eevee behaved in anti-town ways D1 (eevee not giving any reads and Faust with his fake claim), and neither were scum.

Right now I will pressure vote: chairs to get more involved.  He has been sitting in the anonymity of being a "scum or PR" long enough and there is no reason for him to remain there (in anonymity).  We need him to contribute.  Especially if he is the PR that he was supposed to be.

[ashersky]

Ashersky - I do not see how voting yourself is pro-town.  Please enlighten me.

It's not pro-town.  It's anti-town.  Yuma (and anyone else opposing my self-vote) is correct there.

[liopoil]

And you're intentionally being anti-town because....?

[ashersky]

And you're intentionally being anti-town because....?

As stated, I'm annoyed.

Also, it caught you out.  You took the opportune excuse to jump ship on 2.7.  That was just super scummy.

Why, you ask?  Because you didn't vote me for self-voting.  You didn't vote me for other crap.  You took the "huh, ash was self-voting but now just put someone at L-1 instead and man that's so easy!" route and jumped off of 2.7 to me.

That's scummy, dude.

Mislynching town is anti-town.  Hands down.  No arguments there.  So, lynching me is anti-town.  No one knows I'm town but me, so I'm the only one actively doing something anti-town on purpose by voting for me.  Yuma thinks I'm town, even if he won't admit it.  So do you, lio.  But the way you are voting me washes away the protoplasm you are using to mask your alien identity and is showing you to be the scum of DW2 that you are.

[2.71828.....]

Ashersky - I do not see how voting yourself is pro-town.  Please enlighten me.

It's not pro-town.  It's anti-town.  Yuma (and anyone else opposing my self-vote) is correct there.

Glad you cleared that up.  I was pretty sure it was anti-town.  My question: why the vote then?  Are you town fed up with being suspected or are you scum resigning yourself to a certain fate?  I know limiting you to two different possibilities is bold because you are known to do just about anything.

I, for one, thought you were town all of D1.  I, for one, do not want to lynch anti-town behavior, I want to lynch scum.  I am not entirely convinced you are scum.  However, I will policy vote for you tomorrow after Lekkit and teproc have had a chance to post if you are still voting yourself. 

PPE:2

[Ichimaru Gin]

All right.  I am not ready to lynch anyone yet.  Let alone myself.

Plus, E has too many reasons explaining why scum killed eevee, clearly has been thinking about who scum should kill a lot.

For now, I'm going to vote: e. He seemed overaware of Eevee's death. And indirectly "taking responsibility" for it just feels scummy to me as well.

Let me ask a question:  why is it a bad thing to try to figure out why scum would kill who they did during the night?  I think it is very beneficial to town to consider these things.  I am glad that you are doing the same.  Oh wait.  You aren't.  You would much prefer to get a quick lynch in before anyone can say anything about it.  Before anyone can say anything about it.  Chairs is still alive in this game, right?

PPE: 2

If I really wanted a quick lynch, I would have voted Ash--but I'm not, because I don't feel good about that lynch right now. From what I know of Ash, him being way overconfident is not anything new. And, in this instance, I don't think you somehow acting responsible for Eevee's death is good for town in any way. Because if you are town, it doesn't really accomplish anything. I do appreciate that you are contributing though. That's more than a lot of people are doing.

For now unvote. There's still a lot I need to review, and the super-quick ramp up on Ash frankly makes me nervous. It's in scum's best interest to get a quick lynch so town gets no information.

[Ichimaru Gin]

PPE: 4

[ashersky]

Ashersky - I do not see how voting yourself is pro-town.  Please enlighten me.

It's not pro-town.  It's anti-town.  Yuma (and anyone else opposing my self-vote) is correct there.

Glad you cleared that up.  I was pretty sure it was anti-town.  My question: why the vote then?  Are you town fed up with being suspected or are you scum resigning yourself to a certain fate?  I know limiting you to two different possibilities is bold because you are known to do just about anything.

I, for one, thought you were town all of D1.  I, for one, do not want to lynch anti-town behavior, I want to lynch scum.  I am not entirely convinced you are scum.  However, I will policy vote for you tomorrow after Lekkit and teproc have had a chance to post if you are still voting yourself. 

PPE:2

I like your thinking, homes.  As for two options for my own voting, those are two good ones.

But, I'd point out that you've all seen the "scum!ash resigned to losing because it's hopeless" ash before.  Does this seem like that?

The honest answer is I'm just tired.  Tired of being misread so many times.  Part of it comes from having just been scum like 80 times in the last 79 games.  So now, fair or not, I'm going to be suspected more than "normal" in current games, until I have a streak of town flips again.  So maybe hastening the town flip isn't so bad for me personally, even if it isn't the greatest option for town.

The problem now, though, is if I unvote, it's scummy because "hey ash doesn't want to die he's scum!" is sure to be tossed out by someone.  So it's a catch-22.  Sure, it's partly my own doing, from 30-some games of creating my own meta.  Still exists, though, and there's little to be done.

If you think I'm the scummiest, vote me.  Lynch me.  If you don't, then vote where you think the scum are.

[liopoil]

yeah, usually when ashersky does the crazy town!ash thing I get the sense that it's crazy town!ash doing it. Not this time. And robz I think also reads ashersky well, especially when ash is town. I'm ready to vote for ashersky, but it's early in the day, I don't even want to put him at L-2. I don't think everyone has even posted yet, we might have a guilty result on someone or the like.

ash, I know you saw this post, you even responded to it. Don't claim I only decided to do it because you moved your self-vote, that's just not true. This post is while you are self-voting, and e is still at L-3 or something like that.

[ashersky]

yeah, usually when ashersky does the crazy town!ash thing I get the sense that it's crazy town!ash doing it. Not this time. And robz I think also reads ashersky well, especially when ash is town. I'm ready to vote for ashersky, but it's early in the day, I don't even want to put him at L-2. I don't think everyone has even posted yet, we might have a guilty result on someone or the like.

ash, I know you saw this post, you even responded to it. Don't claim I only decided to do it because you moved your self-vote, that's just not true. This post is while you are self-voting, and e is still at L-3 or something like that.

You said that, but didn't vote.  You voted because of my vote on 2.7, after having voted myself.  That's my point, which you are proving.  You didn't vote me for my self-vote, you used my switch to 2.7 as a reason to vote me right after you said you didn't want to.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.2

第二天

2.7... (2): mail-mi, chairs
ashersky (4): Robz, Voltaire, ashersky, yuma {L-2}
chairs (1): 2.7...


Not Voting (4):  Lekkit, Teproc, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Tuesday, December 31st at 6 pm.

[ashersky]

lio and 2.7 = asherlynch.

[Robz888]

Well, we need to hear from people who haven't spoken yet. I would be particularly interested to here from chairs, given certain assumptions.

[2.71828.....]

lio and 2.7 = asherlynch.

you see, I don't want to hammer you, because that would be scummy because I am a target right now.  No, wait.  thats not how it works.  If I DONT hammer you it is scummy because then I am scum trying to get town points for not hammering you when I am a lynch candidate.  But since I know that now, I DO want to hammer you.  Or I don't want to hammer you.  Ichimaru could you could you straighten this out for me?


All joking aside, the reason I did not hammer Faust when I had the opportunity was because (at the time) I believed him to be town.  The reason I am not voting Ash right now is because I lean town on him.  However, as I mentioned, I will policy vote him tomorrow after everyone has at least posted some thoughts unless something changes.  I recognize how voting for yourself might be used as a tactic, but I do not see how it is helpful to us in this game.  If Ash is indeed town, I trust that he will do the right thing and remove his vote.

[Robz888]

Don't policy vote him, just vote for who you think is scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

lio and 2.7 = asherlynch.

you see, I don't want to hammer you, because that would be scummy because I am a target right now.  No, wait.  thats not how it works.  If I DONT hammer you it is scummy because then I am scum trying to get town points for not hammering you when I am a lynch candidate.  But since I know that now, I DO want to hammer you.  Or I don't want to hammer you.  Ichimaru could you could you straighten this out for me?


All joking aside, the reason I did not hammer Faust when I had the opportunity was because (at the time) I believed him to be town.  The reason I am not voting Ash right now is because I lean town on him.  However, as I mentioned, I will policy vote him tomorrow after everyone has at least posted some thoughts unless something changes.  I recognize how voting for yourself might be used as a tactic, but I do not see how it is helpful to us in this game.  If Ash is indeed town, I trust that he will do the right thing and remove his vote.

I agree it's probably WIFOM. And that's partially why I'm no longer voting you. I think it is important to take people's actions with an open mind--not allowing your previous assumptions that they are town or scum to cloud your analysis--which is probably what I did in this situation. If you believe someone to be of a certain alignment, it is easy to interpret--or misinterpret everything they do to support your position.

I want to hear from the others: Lekkit, chairs, Teproc.
I still oppose an Ash lynch. And I'd like to hear what they think.

[ashersky]

Don't policy vote him, just vote for who you think is scum.

Agree with this statement.

I think yuma's the only policy voter on my wagon, right?

Robz, I think I answered your questions during your absence.

[Robz888]

Don't policy vote him, just vote for who you think is scum.

Agree with this statement.

I think yuma's the only policy voter on my wagon, right?

Robz, I think I answered your questions during your absence.

Yeah, I guess.

[Lekkit]

On the phone now. Will post later. I'm actively opposed to a 2.7 lynch. I'm not sure about ash. Chairs being alive is probably not weird. Ichimaru Gin looks like the most opportunistic voter ever. More thoughts as I'll be at a computer in an hour or so.

[Ichimaru Gin]

On the phone now. Will post later. I'm actively opposed to a 2.7 lynch. I'm not sure about ash. Chairs being alive is probably not weird. Ichimaru Gin looks like the most opportunistic voter ever. More thoughts as I'll be at a computer in an hour or so.

Well nice to finally hear from you Lekkit. . .
And yup, that's why I put Ash at L-1

[Lekkit]

Because you're opportunistic? Or because you're opposed to a 2.7 lynch?

[Lekkit]

Wait I'm confused now... You didn't put ash at L-1.

[Teproc]

I'm here and caught up. I think the ash wagon is just weird. Robz, if you think ash votes for faust for weak reasons (I agree with that), what's changed ? faust's flip doesn't really change much to me, ash's reasons were already weak then.

Policy voting is not much better than self-voting. We are trying to win this game, future games shouldn't matter.

2.7's post about the Eevee kill was indeed scummy, so I get that wagon. But I think e had the same kind of attitude in Toy Story, which got me (and a lot of people in the speccy) to think he was scum. I'm gonna need to reread e before doing anything.

Right now, my preferred lynch would be Ichimaru. He was out of the lynch pool on day 1, but everything he has done in this game is scum 101. The fact that he's new only makes it more likely to me that he's scum doing these things because he doesn't know how scummy they make him look.

[Teproc]

Wait I'm confused now... You didn't put ash at L-1.

He didn't, which he's pointing out to say he's not as opportunistic as you say he is.

[Lekkit]

Wait I'm confused now... You didn't put ash at L-1.

He didn't, which he's pointing out to say he's not as opportunistic as you say he is.

Except you know... That he put 2.7 at L-1.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

Easily the scummiest player around.

[Lekkit]

Also, why do people find 2.7 scummy? I don't really get it. That he didn't hammer faust? That he voted for chairs? The most compelling case against him is that he wasn't posting much until yuma called him out. But I think even that's a pretty weak case.

[chairs]

Well, we need to hear from people who haven't spoken yet. I would be particularly interested to here from chairs, given certain assumptions.

I'm not sold on scum!ash.  I agree with ash's argument on scum!lio, and I still get a scum!2.7 vibe.

[liopoil]

yeah, usually when ashersky does the crazy town!ash thing I get the sense that it's crazy town!ash doing it. Not this time. And robz I think also reads ashersky well, especially when ash is town. I'm ready to vote for ashersky, but it's early in the day, I don't even want to put him at L-2. I don't think everyone has even posted yet, we might have a guilty result on someone or the like.

ash, I know you saw this post, you even responded to it. Don't claim I only decided to do it because you moved your self-vote, that's just not true. This post is while you are self-voting, and e is still at L-3 or something like that.

You said that, but didn't vote.  You voted because of my vote on 2.7, after having voted myself.  That's my point, which you are proving.  You didn't vote me for my self-vote, you used my switch to 2.7 as a reason to vote me right after you said you didn't want to.

only reason I didn't vote you was because that would put you at L-2 on a fast growing wagon. see the above, I'll even requote the relevant bit for you:

I'm ready to vote for ashersky, but it's early in the day, I don't even want to put him at L-2. I don't think everyone has even posted yet, we might have a guilty result on someone or the like.

when you moved your self-vote, suddenly my vote only puts you at L-3.

I mean, it was pretty inevitable that I would vote for you eventually.

[liopoil]

I agree with ash's argument on scum!lio

whaaaat? I've been just ignoring ash's things he says about me that are scummy because they're silly, but now I see he actually convinced someone?

[Lekkit]

I've had a pretty hectic day at work today so I haven't been able to reread as much as I would've liked. I'll give you my thoughts before I'm off for the holidays.

First off, DON'T LYNCH ANYONE OVER CHRISTMAS. We want as much input as possible before lynching anyone since faust flipping lying town won't help us as much.

And I'll give you my short version of my scummylist.

Ichimaru Gin. very scummy in all. Opportunistic voting, only following other people's cases and not contributing much. Could possibly be due to him being new.

chairs. The fact that he didn't die tonight means basically nothing. But the fact that he hasn't really done anything at all makes him pretty suspicious in my opinion.

ashersky. Does crazy stuff. I tend to lean scummy on him by default. No exception here, but aside from that, I can't really make sense of ash's play at all. Playing against your wincon (selfvoting) is never good, though.

Voltaire. I was pretty suspicious of him earlier, especially since he disappeared at the end of the day and then reappeared closer to the deadline. I've cooled down somewhat here. Especially since a lot of other players seems to think he's towny. And that many players having an expressed town read on someone might mean that I'm wrong.

[liopoil]

oh yeah.... could scum really have suspected eevee to be a PR more than they suspect chairs to be PR? that makes chairs look pretty bad, actually...

[2.71828.....]

My take on Ichimaru-  We need to decide if his opportunistic voting is newb!scum or newb!town.  Since he is a new player, he may just be excited about trying to lynch someone and could very well be town. However, he could also be scum and not realize how scummy it makes him look.  I just wonder if his scum partner would have warned him about that overnight in their qt as he exhibited the same behaviors on D1.  So I lean a little town on him.  However, he does need more reads than sheep!votes

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichimaru Gin. very scummy in all. Opportunistic voting, only following other people's cases and not contributing much. Could possibly be due to him being new.

I find it very ironic that you say I am not contributing much.
You lurk most of D1, then show up randomly D2 with a scum-read on me, yet aren't even paying enough attention to catch my sarcasm. I can understand the idea of a chaser-post, pending you're later, slightly more substantial reads list. But it's pretty obvious that you hadn't been following things that closely.

I'm fine with your vote on me. I got a D1 pass, and as such, haven't received my share of suspicion. I'm still learning how to read people's behavior as town or scum. I'll have a reads list up soon.

PPE: 2

[Voltaire]

oh yeah.... could scum really have suspected eevee to be a PR more than they suspect chairs to be PR? that makes chairs look pretty bad, actually...

Fascinating. That does make me willing to vote for chairs today. I'd prefer ash, but I'd vote for chairs. Of course, this might be what they wanted us to do.

Also, to everyone saying 2.7's post about Eevee is scummy - this is one of those "we call it scummy but scum never does it" things. I did it in GoT and yuma thought I was scummy for it (we were both town). I've seen many people accused of it but never seen them flip scum.

[Voltaire]

My take on Ichimaru-  We need to decide if his opportunistic voting is newb!scum or newb!town.  Since he is a new player, he may just be excited about trying to lynch someone and could very well be town. However, he could also be scum and not realize how scummy it makes him look.  I just wonder if his scum partner would have warned him about that overnight in their qt as he exhibited the same behaviors on D1.  So I lean a little town on him.  However, he does need more reads than sheep!votes

It's usually new!town in my experience. It's where I've had the most success (trying to) stop "easy" mislynches.

Of course, mail-mi votes that way even though he's not new. Did mail-mi vote that way when he was new town?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Reads.
Chairs--been lurking like a *ton*. Don't really have much of a read on him, but the lurking is scummy.

Lekkit--Lurked most of D1. I'm leaning scummy, but that's just gonna sound like OMGUS.

Ashersky--Really don't see the case against him. Yeah, he was overconfident about Faust and ended up being wrong, but that just sounds like Ash.

Liopoil--actually a slight townread on him. He jumped off the Ash wagon when he saw it was getting too serious. That doesn't read scum to me.

Everyone else, not really sure. I'm leaning a little more town on 2.7 now. I'd like to hear from chairs, cause otherwise, I think he's a good lynch.

oh yeah.... could scum really have suspected eevee to be a PR more than they suspect chairs to be PR? that makes chairs look pretty bad, actually...

This makes sense. I don't know why chairs isn't posting. I recall something about a live-in-lady-friend. Of the games I've read, he seems to have a lurker meta though.
Also, is chairs a PR like much more often than anyone else?

PPE: 2

[Teproc]

Also, to everyone saying 2.7's post about Eevee is scummy - this is one of those "we call it scummy but scum never does it" things. I did it in GoT and yuma thought I was scummy for it (we were both town). I've seen many people accused of it but never seen them flip scum.

It's not really the same thing though. What's scummy in e's post is that he seems to be anticipating town blaming him for the Eevee kill, which is not a connection I would have made at all if he hadn't talked about it. To me, trying to justify yourself for things you haven't even been accused of yet is scummy.

About chairs. We've been assuming he's either a scum or a PR, but he could be a VT who misread his PM or something. Still, I guess I'll go with that assumption. In that case, I think he needs to claim. His survival is very scummy (although of course scum could have gone PR-hunting to frame him), and he is the main lynch target if he doesn't claim I think. Of coursehe shouldn't do anything before we've agreed that it's the best move hough.

[Robz888]

I'm here and caught up. I think the ash wagon is just weird. Robz, if you think ash votes for faust for weak reasons (I agree with that), what's changed ? faust's flip doesn't really change much to me, ash's reasons were already weak then.

Yeah, I guess I just didn't care about it as much yesterday. I just ignored the case until faust became scummy for other reason's. Now I can't shake the feeling that scum!ashersky is cursing his bad luck that faust went insane and got himself lynched, exposing the weakness of ash's "100% certain" read.

[Robz888]

The case against Ichimaru is so good it must actually be terrible. Partners would have warned him not to make every single newbie scum mistake in the book.

I could see him as a partnerless SK, but we don't have a good reason to think there's an SK right now.

[Voltaire]

The case against Ichimaru is so good it must actually be terrible. Partners would have warned him not to make every single newbie scum mistake in the book.

I could see him as a partnerless SK, but we don't have a good reason to think there's an SK right now.

This.

[mail-mi]

My take on Ichimaru-  We need to decide if his opportunistic voting is newb!scum or newb!town.  Since he is a new player, he may just be excited about trying to lynch someone and could very well be town. However, he could also be scum and not realize how scummy it makes him look.  I just wonder if his scum partner would have warned him about that overnight in their qt as he exhibited the same behaviors on D1.  So I lean a little town on him.  However, he does need more reads than sheep!votes

It's usually new!town in my experience. It's where I've had the most success (trying to) stop "easy" mislynches.

Of course, mail-mi votes that way even though he's not new. Did mail-mi vote that way when he was new town?

Yes. It's why I got mislynched D1 in ash's newbie game. I see myself in Gin, and as such will not participate in lynching him.

[yuma]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

If you think he is scum this much this is exactly why you you should be voting for him, L-1 be damned. Again, let him worry about being at L-1. If he is town he will unvote, if he is scum he will probably unvote as well and if he doesn't then he gets lynched and we are happy.

[yuma]

The problem now, though, is if I unvote, it's scummy because "hey ash doesn't want to die he's scum!" is sure to be tossed out by someone.  So it's a catch-22.  Sure, it's partly my own doing, from 30-some games of creating my own meta.  Still exists, though, and there's little to be done.

Or people will think hey... ash doesn't want to get lynched, at the very least that is a null tell because it is pro-town. At the best it is a town move because it means your vote isnt' on you. Just move your vote man... especially if you are going to be VLA.

[yuma]

Policy voting is not much better than self-voting. We are trying to win this game, future games shouldn't matter.

Policy voting is just as useful for this game as it is for future games. My vote on ash is for this game and the future. Just because it is a policy vote doesn't mean it is soley for the future. Having ash remove his vote is good for this game regardless of future ones...

[yuma]

Also, why do people find 2.7 scummy? I don't really get it. That he didn't hammer faust? That he voted for chairs? The most compelling case against him is that he wasn't posting much until yuma called him out. But I think even that's a pretty weak case.

Lekkit you never explained why you had 2.7 at like a 10% day1. And I still want it answered. I can see maybe you having a null read, but you had an extremely strong read. I want that explained. Both your read then and your current read now.

[liopoil]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

If you think he is scum this much this is exactly why you you should be voting for him, L-1 be damned. Again, let him worry about being at L-1. If he is town he will unvote, if he is scum he will probably unvote as well and if he doesn't then he gets lynched and we are happy.

he won't unvote if he's town, he said himself that he'd rather get lynched than not get lynched.

[yuma]

Ichimaru Gin. very scummy in all. Opportunistic voting, only following other people's cases and not contributing much. Could possibly be due to him being new.

chairs. The fact that he didn't die tonight means basically nothing. But the fact that he hasn't really done anything at all makes him pretty suspicious in my opinion.

ashersky. Does crazy stuff. I tend to lean scummy on him by default. No exception here, but aside from that, I can't really make sense of ash's play at all. Playing against your wincon (selfvoting) is never good, though.

Voltaire. I was pretty suspicious of him earlier, especially since he disappeared at the end of the day and then reappeared closer to the deadline. I've cooled down somewhat here. Especially since a lot of other players seems to think he's towny. And that many players having an expressed town read on someone might mean that I'm wrong.

This whole post just rings false to me... It is like the island of easy mislynches (assuming of course that these three are mislynches, which I guess is something of a stretch) except for Voltaire where Lekkit is moving a a scumread to a townread based solely off fitting in with the general perception seems scummy to me.

[yuma]

The case against Ichimaru is so good it must actually be terrible. Partners would have warned him not to make every single newbie scum mistake in the book.

You might be right, but I am annoyed with how people came to this conclusion too soon. I would have been interested to see how Ichimaru would have reacted to getting 3-4 votes on him and some more pressure and see what he would say.

[Teproc]

The case against Ichimaru is so good it must actually be terrible. Partners would have warned him not to make every single newbie scum mistake in the book.

That makes sense, although I don't think he got much suspicion on day 1 (because of the newbie pass), so maybe his partner thought he was fine ?

[yuma]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

If you think he is scum this much this is exactly why you you should be voting for him, L-1 be damned. Again, let him worry about being at L-1. If he is town he will unvote, if he is scum he will probably unvote as well and if he doesn't then he gets lynched and we are happy.

he won't unvote if he's town, he said himself that he'd rather get lynched than not get lynched.

Do you think he really means that or do you think that was something he said when he was frustrated and annoyed?

[Teproc]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

[yuma]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

I'd say let's get the votes and then if we do he can claim if he wants.... Just having him claim skips steps that I think need to be taken... unless chairs himself thinks he has a really good reason for claiming (pro-hint, he probably doesn't...)

I guess what I mean to say is that I am against claiming prematurely. If enough people think he is scummy and worth of a vote then they should just vote him anything short of that is PR fishing in my opinion. If not then why claim? Obviously if chairs has a really good result then he should claim it.... but as he hasn't yet, I doubt he has anything good.

[ashersky]

vote: ichimaru

[Teproc]

Ok then. I think the best odds of finding scum right now is chairs. Of course scum might have been framing him by going PR-hunting, but it's not like Eevee was a surefire PR or anything, he had expressed disliking day 1s before and could easily have been a VT. He also seemed scummy to a lot of people, so by killing him, mafia also lost a potential mislynch if he was VT. This leads me to think that the probability of chairs being scum is much higher than the probability of a scumteam trying to frame him.

vote: chairs

[ashersky]

Cross-posting for reference:

Honestly, I'll be completely focused on family time for the Christmas holidays, so basically LA until Monday.

[Lekkit]

Also, why do people find 2.7 scummy? I don't really get it. That he didn't hammer faust? That he voted for chairs? The most compelling case against him is that he wasn't posting much until yuma called him out. But I think even that's a pretty weak case.

Lekkit you never explained why you had 2.7 at like a 10% day1. And I still want it answered. I can see maybe you having a null read, but you had an extremely strong read. I want that explained. Both your read then and your current read now.

Allright, basically his reaction to the whole chairs thing looked like a townie reacting to it. Then he was pretty much the one that pushed town towards doing suff when nobody else was. Nothing has changed when it comes to that.

[Lekkit]

Also, I'll be gone tomorrow and probably the day after that too.

[2.71828.....]

non-RVS "voting for Eevee" history

/701 Robz votes Eevee as a “random lurker lynch” candidate
/703 Liopoil votes Eevee as a placeholder and because “if I had to lynch someone right now that's probably who I'd pick.”
/729 2.7 votes Eevee at the conclusion of the Galz deduction post.  The reasoning is that Eevee is providing no reason at all for why we should not lynch him.
/918 Yuma votes Eevee based partly on the fact that he does not believe that town!eevee would really be as devoid of comments as he was up to that point.
/964 2.7 votes Eevee because he no longer liked the Faust lynch and Eevee was the other target using the reasoning from /729
/1029 Voltaire votes Eevee since he does not want to vote Faust and mail-mi wasn’t getting support
/1048 Faust votes Eevee because why not
/1051 Teproc votes Eevee as an alternative to mail-mi
/1065 Voltaire comes back to Eevee after a brief stay on mail-mi
/1072 Teproc comes back to Eevee after a brief stay on mail-mi
/1085 mail-mi votes Eevee.  Says he is fine with the Faust lynch even though he prefers Eevee

People who voted Eevee (in order): Robz, liopoil, 2.7, yuma, voltaire, faust, teproc, mail-mi

The most interesting part of this wagon is that it was (almost) everyone’s second choice vote.  Robz says he is a fine lurker lynch (which is suboptimal) but never goes back to him after Faust does his fake-claim.  Liopoil puts him down as a placeholder.  Voltaire and Teproc both preferred mail-mi.  Faust was in self-preservation mode.  mail-mi and 2.7 were the only ones who seemed to express the opinion that Eevee was their primary target.  Another interesting thing to note is how quickly Teproc followed Voltaire around with mail-mi then Eevee.  I seriously doubt this is scum/scum but they might just be playing us to have a reference point to say "how could we both be scum."  Statistically, we will find scum somewhere in all these votes, but I don’t think there is anything in the wagon itself that makes me think someone is scummy.  mail-mi leaving the wagon to hammer Faust is interesting but I will talk about that when I cover the Faust wagon.

I will get Faust done sometime late tonight/tomorrow unless someone beats me to it. 

[liopoil]

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

and your point is? why did you remove your vote? If ash is concerned about getting lynched, let him remove his vote.

because I for one am not ready for the day to end.

Sure... neither am I. Lekkit and teproc have yet to post I think... but ashersky should be the one to unvote, not you. You unvoting removes the pressure for him to unvote and start using his vote in a constructive manner.

why should I want him to unvote? his self-voting is good for us if he's scum, which I think he is.

If you think he is scum this much this is exactly why you you should be voting for him, L-1 be damned. Again, let him worry about being at L-1. If he is town he will unvote, if he is scum he will probably unvote as well and if he doesn't then he gets lynched and we are happy.

he won't unvote if he's town, he said himself that he'd rather get lynched than not get lynched.

Do you think he really means that or do you think that was something he said when he was frustrated and annoyed?

well, he did just move his vote, so I dunno... hmmmm. Not sure what to think anymore.

[yuma]

well I guess I'll note that I will be pretty absent as well although if everyone is absent I guess no one will notice... probably won't post much at all tomorrow, nothing Wednesday and very little again on Thursday...

Are the mods considering adding two days to the deadline? If not can I request that they consider it?

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 2.3

2.7... (2): mail-mi, chairs
ashersky (3): Robz, Voltaire, yuma
chairs (2): 2.7..., Teproc
Ichimaru Gin (2): Lekkit, ashersky


Not Voting (2): liopoil, Ichimaru Gin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm. To account for holidays

[chairs]

Ok then. I think the best odds of finding scum right now is chairs. Of course scum might have been framing him by going PR-hunting, but it's not like Eevee was a surefire PR or anything, he had expressed disliking day 1s before and could easily have been a VT. He also seemed scummy to a lot of people, so by killing him, mafia also lost a potential mislynch if he was VT. This leads me to think that the probability of chairs being scum is much higher than the probability of a scumteam trying to frame him.

vote: chairs

As someone who is 100% sure I'm town, I can only assume that scum believe one of the following:

1) I will use my PR poorly/my PR is weak and they needn't bother killing me.
2) I will be mislynched today because of their kill choice last night, ensuring both a kill and another mislynch.
3) I'm not actually a PR, just a VT trying to gambit my way into looking PR-ish.

Obviously I know whether or not I'm really a PR, and I know I'm town.  If I'm a PR, and I had anything beneficial related to my PR to provide to town, clearly I would do so.

[Ichimaru Gin]

well I guess I'll note that I will be pretty absent as well although if everyone is absent I guess no one will notice... probably won't post much at all tomorrow, nothing Wednesday and very little again on Thursday...

Are the mods considering adding two days to the deadline? If not can I request that they consider it?

Yeah. Same here.

[mcmcsalot]

well I guess I'll note that I will be pretty absent as well although if everyone is absent I guess no one will notice... probably won't post much at all tomorrow, nothing Wednesday and very little again on Thursday...

Are the mods considering adding two days to the deadline? If not can I request that they consider it?

Yeah. Same here.

I have added two days to the deadline for that.

[2.71828.....]

I will get Faust done sometime late tonight/tomorrow unless someone beats me to it.

So I really thought I would get this done yesterday or even today, but I am pushing it off again.  I will go back and examine that lynch and see what similarities/differences it has with the Eevee wagon and what I think we can infer from that.  However, that is not a task for right now, as I need to sleep.  We still have a week before the new deadline

[2.71828.....]

/255 - Ashersky's "absolutely certain Faust is scum" vote.
/447 - 2.7 at the end of a reads post.
/753 - Ashersky reinforces his Faust vote
/785 - Lekkit votes Faust when Faust was not a popular lynch target.  (before the claim stuff)
/871 - 2.7 goes back to Faust after the claim
/914 - liopoil votes Faust because of the claim
/927 - Ichimaru votes Faust because of the claim and because he wants to get a lynch in.
/958 - yuma votes Faust and puts him at L-2 even though he thought it was L-1 (I had unvoted).  He states that the other lynch candidates (eevee, mail-mi, and liopoil) had all kind of fizzled off and so this seems like a "we need a lynch lets get something done" vote.  He does provide extra reasoning with a conclusion that Faust is not telling the truth about the claim
/993 - Robz energetically votes Faust (repeats vote: Faust 9 times) after Faust said he was lying about his claim.  Puts him at L-1 (unvotes shortly after to wait for more reads)
/1042 - Faust self-votes himself to L-1 (quickly changes to Eevee)
/1069 - Eevee votes Faust citing self-preservation.
/1093 - mail-mi hammers.

People who voted Faust (in order):  Ashersky, 2.7, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru, Yuma, Robz, Faust, Eevee, mail-mi

This wagon has three phases:
Phase 1: pre-claim.  Ashersky, 2.7, and Lekkit are the only three who vote Faust at this time.  During my play D1 I found this really interesting.  It was a super slow D1, and (basically) no one was willing to jump onto the wagon with Ash and myself.  Why is that?  People voted others for less developed cases.  My thought is that Ash was so fixed on Faust that it created a distaste for the wagon, and people did not want to be found agreeing with Ash when they thought his behavior was a little strange.  I mean, I was tied to Ashersky a bit here and I felt like there were times when it was me and Ash vs everyone else (in regard to the Faust claim).  So I just think that no one else really wanted to be associated with that kind of certainty and thus even if they might have seen something in the case, they were thrown off by Ash's certainty.  (I could be wrong, but that is how I saw it)

Phase 2: Post-claim.  2.7, liopoil, Ichimaru, and yuma all vote Faust because of the claim.  It was an interesting claim that mainly made people suspect Faust more.

Phase 3: Post-I-lied-about-the-claim.  Robz immediately jumps on Faust.  Then Eevee and mail-mi finally hammers. 

I don't have the time to really think about what all this means right now.  I pieced this together throughout the day as I had time, and it is almost dinner now but I just wanted to get this out

[ashersky]

I think you neglected Phase 0: ash is 100% convinced Faust is scum.

That was before anyone else, even you, had anything on him.

[Voltaire]

I think you neglected Phase 0: ash is 100% convinced Faust is scum.

That was before anyone else, even you, had anything on him.

And why would you do that, as town? You know better. You acted as though you were a N0 cop with a scum result.

[ashersky]

I think you neglected Phase 0: ash is 100% convinced Faust is scum.

That was before anyone else, even you, had anything on him.

And why would you do that, as town? You know better. You acted as though you were a N0 cop with a scum result.

I was very sure.  Faust was, in fact, 100% scummy, even going to the point of fake claiming.  Why would he play like scum on purpose?  Maybe he didn't like rolling VT.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think you neglected Phase 0: ash is 100% convinced Faust is scum.

That was before anyone else, even you, had anything on him.

And why would you do that, as town? You know better. You acted as though you were a N0 cop with a scum result.

I was very sure.  Faust was, in fact, 100% scummy, even going to the point of fake claiming.  Why would he play like scum on purpose?  Maybe he didn't like rolling VT.

But wasn't your sureness before all of that happened?

[ashersky]

I think you neglected Phase 0: ash is 100% convinced Faust is scum.

That was before anyone else, even you, had anything on him.

And why would you do that, as town? You know better. You acted as though you were a N0 cop with a scum result.

I was very sure.  Faust was, in fact, 100% scummy, even going to the point of fake claiming.  Why would he play like scum on purpose?  Maybe he didn't like rolling VT.

But wasn't your sureness before all of that happened?

No, we were all assigned roles before the game started.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think you neglected Phase 0: ash is 100% convinced Faust is scum.

That was before anyone else, even you, had anything on him.

And why would you do that, as town? You know better. You acted as though you were a N0 cop with a scum result.

I was very sure.  Faust was, in fact, 100% scummy, even going to the point of fake claiming.  Why would he play like scum on purpose?  Maybe he didn't like rolling VT.

But wasn't your sureness before all of that happened?

No, we were all assigned roles before the game started.

I know there's a sarcastic joke in here, but I honestly don't understand it. Are you taking what I said to refer to the time before N0? Cause I was referring to your comment about Faust fake-claiming.

[ashersky]

My strong read was formed well-before the fake claim.  It was based on Faust's first (or close to first) post in the game.

Why are we continuing to argue over Faust's alignment anyway?

Am I voting anyone?

vote: voltaire for tunneling me without cause.

[Voltaire]

vote: voltaire for tunneling me without cause.

Without cause? There is no town narrative for you, and you've attempted to distort the facts about every vote on you and the timing/reasoning for your faust read/actions. That's plenty cause.

[ashersky]

vote: voltaire for tunneling me without cause.

Without cause? There is no town narrative for you, and you've attempted to distort the facts about every vote on you and the timing/reasoning for your faust read/actions. That's plenty cause.

Town Volt is usually right, though.  You are wrong here, so more likely scum (or mistaken town, I guess, but that rarely happens to you.)

[Voltaire]

vote: voltaire for tunneling me without cause.

Without cause? There is no town narrative for you, and you've attempted to distort the facts about every vote on you and the timing/reasoning for your faust read/actions. That's plenty cause.

Town Volt is usually right, though.  You are wrong here, so more likely scum (or mistaken town, I guess, but that rarely happens to you.)

So, are you agreeing with me about your actions?

The "town!Volt is awesome" case is still not a case. Only ever been advanced by scum.

[ashersky]

vote: voltaire for tunneling me without cause.

Without cause? There is no town narrative for you, and you've attempted to distort the facts about every vote on you and the timing/reasoning for your faust read/actions. That's plenty cause.

Town Volt is usually right, though.  You are wrong here, so more likely scum (or mistaken town, I guess, but that rarely happens to you.)

So, are you agreeing with me about your actions?

The "town!Volt is awesome" case is still not a case. Only ever been advanced by scum.

Lynch me and find out, dude.

My actions can be painted as scummy, absolutely.  In some universes, they in fact would be scummy.  Doesn't make me scum, just as it turned out Faust was town, unless BM.

[Voltaire]

Lynch me and find out, dude.

My actions can be painted as scummy, absolutely.  In some universes, they in fact would be scummy.  Doesn't make me scum, just as it turned out Faust was town, unless BM.

I'm voting for you, dude.

So you admit there's no town narrative for what you've done?

[yuma]

As noted in the VLA thread I have been pretty sick (again...) and am behind in this game. I won't be catching up for a day or two, but with the deadline moved hopefully that will be ok....

If someone wants to summarize everything that has happened since I last posted that would be swell, but I dont' think a lot has because of the holidays.

I noted that ash has unvoted himself, so I will unvote as well.

[ashersky]

Lynch me and find out, dude.

My actions can be painted as scummy, absolutely.  In some universes, they in fact would be scummy.  Doesn't make me scum, just as it turned out Faust was town, unless BM.

I'm voting for you, dude.

So you admit there's no town narrative for what you've done?

I do not.  Ism town, I did it.  Ergo, there is a "town narrative" for it.

What is your fascination with town narrative, anyway?  You must know by now that idea doesn't apply to me (or Robz, for example), anyway.  I do what I do, no matter my alignment, if I think it helps me win.

[yuma]

I know I am not one to speak here, but I am at least trying to get back into the game. In the meantime can we get prods on the following players (unless they have a specific VLA, I haven't checked for them specifically) and I'll check the VLA thread cause I'll feel bad if everyone here has a valid excuse

2. Robz888 - hasn't posted since the 23rd. (has a semi-VLA through tomorrow)
3. mail-mi - hasn't posted since the 23rd (VLA through 25th)
4. Chairs - hasn't posted since the 24th. (couldn't find a VLA)
8. Lekkit - hasn't posted since the 23rd. (VLA through the 25th)
9. Liopoil - hasn't posted since the 23rd. (couldn't find a VLA)
10. Teproc - hasn't posted since the 23rd. (has a VLA through the 25th)

Morale of the story is that no one is posting, myself included to an extent and we need to get back to business here. Not specifically finger pointing because everyone has been gone more or less, but just because there hasn't been content doesn't mean it isn't time to start generating some.

And I am back to vote: liopoil. He is probably the person that should have been lynched yesterday and I don't see a reason why he wasn't except that faust totally distracted us from what we should have been doing.

[Voltaire]

I will be more into this game starting Monday, hopefully that is ok.

I'll vote lio if I can't convince everyone on ash.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm going to have to review a lot of stuff. But I'll definitely be more active Monday as well.
I'm warming up to the Ash lynch a little bit. . .We'll see. I'd like to hear from all the players Yuma listed.

[2.71828.....]

My schedule the rest of the day:

I will be gone tomorrow (travelling back home from my parent's for the holidays).  I should be able to do some analysis and get reads done Sunday and Monday, but then I will be gone again Tuesday (31st) and most of Wednesday (1st).  I will be back late Wednesday night/Thursday to get things done that day before the deadline at 6:00 Thursday

[Robz888]

I should have more time for this game now that I am dead in Chocolate Factory. Anyway there doesn't seem to be a whole lot to comment on. I'm voting for ash and don't see why I would vote for anyone else. I think he's scum who was planning to hide behind a too-crazy case on Faust, and then Faust went insane and ruined it.

Well, admittedly, not helping matters is that I just plain don't remember anything else happening in this game. What's the case against liopoil?

[Teproc]

I haven't posted since the 23rd ? Dear God. I've actually been caught up, it's just that I have mostly been reading on my phone and I hate phone posting. Also, I'm not super interested in the ash conversation. He's being annoying with his insistence that he was right even though he was obviously wrong, but I didn't think his insane certainty was scummy then, and I still don't think it's scummy now.

[ashersky]

I haven't posted since the 23rd ? Dear God. I've actually been caught up, it's just that I have mostly been reading on my phone and I hate phone posting. Also, I'm not super interested in the ash conversation. He's being annoying with his insistence that he was right even though he was obviously wrong, but I didn't think his insane certainty was scummy then, and I still don't think it's scummy now.

This man gets it.

[chairs]

I've also been reading, but I don't really have anything to say.

[Lekkit]

I've been pretty busy with work, not sleeping and doing other stuff (mostly Hearthstone) during what little spare time I've had. I have read everything, though, but not really processed it. I'm doing a gaming marathon today/tomorrow and won't be spending much time here, but I hope I can get going on monday.

[liopoil]

I made a post in the V/LA thread, yuma, look harder. I'm V/LA until tuesday, but I am able to check in once a day for a short while. last couple days I've read the  two posts that were made or something like that, seen that there's nothing important happening, and gone to take my turns in non-mafia games so that they can continue. robz, I find it interesting that you are asking what the case on me is when you advocated my lynch yesterday!

[yuma]

I made a post in the V/LA thread, yuma, look harder.

Sorry that I missed it. And like I said, I wasn't trying to point fingers or anything, just see if we could get a jump start on the game as it died off because everyone was more or less VLA and getting prods on players who hadn't posted seemed like a good way to do that.

[Robz888]

I made a post in the V/LA thread, yuma, look harder. I'm V/LA until tuesday, but I am able to check in once a day for a short while. last couple days I've read the  two posts that were made or something like that, seen that there's nothing important happening, and gone to take my turns in non-mafia games so that they can continue. robz, I find it interesting that you are asking what the case on me is when you advocated my lynch yesterday!

Yeah I've really just forgotten every detail of this game, other than the ash and Faust stuff.

[mail-mi]

The 23rd? Wow, I should post now. Im in the same boat as teproc with my caught up-ness.

Wel anyway.... Lynch order:

E>>>>>>>liopoil>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ash.

this is just normal ash.

[Robz888]

This mounting consensus that "this is normal town!ash" is just making me more certain he is scum and buddies are covering for him.

[Teproc]

Seeing scumteams already Robz ? That would be a lot of partners for ash. I still don't underqtand how this behavior would be particularly scummy.

Everyone buys the partner excuse for Ichimaru (the idea that his parrner would have warned him not to be so scumny) ? I could see a partner encouraging him to continue to act this way, fully expecting us to raise this very argument.

In fact, no one seems to care about the chairs situation, so vote: Ichimaru

[Robz888]

^Like, exactly like this. Deny, misdirect to obvious mislynch candidate.

[Robz888]

Oh! Chairs tho. I do kind of want to talk about tht more and not so easily let it go.

[yuma]

This is really messy, so sorry for that, but i need to get to baby and will try to consolidate later into a more concise post... so feel free to read but look forward to a better written post down the road.

Vote count yuma.?
2.7... (2): mail-mi, chairs
ashersky (2): Robz, Voltaire
chairs (1): 2.7...
Ichimaru Gin (2): Lekkit, Teproc
voltaire (1): ashersky
liopoil (1): yuma

Not Voting (2): liopoil, Ichimaru Gin

Ok... in the light of trying to get back on track here I think a case needs to be represented for everyone that has been voted for (i.e. someone on a wagon explain the case and why you think that points to so and so being scum)

I'll start:

So I think the whole of yesterday was completely and totally distracted by faust, unfortunately... While I do think there is something to glean from looking at the interactions there it is difficult to get stuff out of it... because it was such a bizarre situation of faust hijacking the game (this is the correct usage of the word "hijacking the game" eh 2.7?) and I think most players would react to faust the same way as scum or town... there may be exceptions to this and should be explored, but for now I am thinking lets go back and restart...

This is the vote count before faust claims vengeful:

2.7... (3): Teproc, yuma, liopoil
mail-mi (2): Voltaire, faust
Eevee (1): Robz888
liopoil (4): Eevee, chairs, Ichimaru Gin, mail-mi
chairs (1): 2.7....
faust (2): ashersky, Lekkit

from here things just to move completely toward faust and really the conversation is almost completely on him from then on out right or wrong... Now this isn't enough to just auto-lynch liopoil and isn't what I am suggesting (nor should we ignore everything that happens after this point). No. But I do think we should use this as a starting off point because yesterday was just so weird...

so the main initial votes on liopoil were for lurking... a good reason to vote day1 I think. He responded and then after the faust claim he only received two votes... compare this to 2.7 and eevee who both received a lot more attention after the faust claim I think... well let me back that up cause I am not sure if that is right as this is just off memory:

So we have the faust claim: from there here are the votes:

2.7 votes faust
liopoil votes faust
yuma votes eevee
ichimaru votes faust
mail-mi votes liopoil
robz votes 2.7
mail-mi votes 2.7
faust votes 2.7
yuma votes faust
2.7 votes eevee
faust votes ash
faust votes 2.7robz votes faust
2.7 votes eevee
votlaire votes eevee
faust votes faust (LAME!)
faust votes eeveeteproc votes eevee
Robz votes 2.7
voltaire votes mail-mi
teproc votes mail-mi
voltaire votes eevee
eevee votes faust
teproc votes eevee
mail-mi votes eevee[/b
mail-mi votes faust (hammer)

So yeah... liopoil received very few votes after faust's claim compared to the other lynch options of 2.7 and eevee specifically... Why is this significant? Well because I think at this juncture it is odd that liopoil wasn't brought up again as a wagon? Why? Well I think one possibility is that if he is scum, scum partners didn't want to make him be the alternative to faust (who did look like he was being lynched, but wasn't ever a for sure thing) and instead offered up eevee and 2.7.

Here are some points that I brought up in regard to liopoil responding aggressively to suspicion as town and keeps his cool as scum (and I think he kept his cool here). I stand by it although liopoil has brought up the point that he only responds aggressively when the points are stupid... which I don't know... anytime I am town I think all points brought up against me are stupid, because they are...

I don't really have a lot to add from liopoil day2. His argument with ash was what it was... he did push the 2.7 thing in regard to eevee being killed. I am almost always a little skeptical of those sort of arguments and tend to think they come from scum, but that isn't a big deal... other than that he is now VLA (as I previously didn't see, but will now acknowledge) and hasn't added much.

This is really messy, so sorry for that, but i need to get to baby and will try to consolidate later into a more concise post...

[ashersky]

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

[mail-mi]

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

Was it mean girls that yuma said he only copy&pasted as scum?

[yuma]

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

Was it mean girls that yuma said he only copy&pasted as scum?

I have no idea if I said that or not and don't see why it is relevant here....

I copied the last statement above and put it at the top so that people wouldn't have to read through the slog before getting to the bottom and realizing I would be writing up a more concise post later... cause that would be annoying.

Are you asking if being considerate to others is scummy? Cause the answer I hope would be no.

[ashersky]

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

Was it mean girls that yuma said he only copy&pasted as scum?

I have no idea if I said that or not and don't see why it is relevant here....

I copied the last statement above and put it at the top so that people wouldn't have to read through the slog before getting to the bottom and realizing I would be writing up a more concise post later... cause that would be annoying.

Are you asking if being considerate to others is scummy? Cause the answer I hope would be no.

That's unfair, Yuma.  You know I am one of the staunchest defenders of separation of game and IRL.

I believe the statement, that you had pressing family needs.  I'd rather you had just saved your text someone and handled it, as baby is more important.

But, you posted, in the game thread (as opposed to VLA, for example), so I am obliged to study it.  And the copy/paste stuck out as a possible scum tell for you.  So I noted it.

[yuma]

Ok more concise post:

1. liopoil was the largest wagon at the time that faust claimed and the thread turned into chaos
2. after that point he received very few votes compared to others who were in that category of possibly being lynched (specifically sure 2.7, eevee and mail-mi)
3. the main points against liopoil from day1 are lurking and responding passively to suspicion (I maintain that liopoil responds more aggressively as scum) and that it is compelling that his lynch was not brought up as a possibility against him after faust claimed
4. points I would add are his case against 2.7 today (I tend to find arguments that so and so talked about why the NK died to be from scum, but this isn't always true. I did it as town in GoT against Voltaire when we were both town for example), general lurky behavior today (and I don't just mean during his VLA, rather that he has posted but really only participated in a dialogue with ashersky and hasn't done much else)

Last point in case others missed it above, I think every wagon that currently exists needs to have the case re-presented by someone voting for that wagon so that we can regroup and figure out where we stand in this game. I think this needs to happen sometime between now and New Years Eve because there is going to be another mini-break that day as well and if we wait that long we are going to get bogged down in a slog, as if we aren't already....

[yuma]

That's unfair, Yuma.  You know I am one of the staunchest defenders of separation of game and IRL.

I believe the statement, that you had pressing family needs.  I'd rather you had just saved your text someone and handled it, as baby is more important.

But, you posted, in the game thread (as opposed to VLA, for example), so I am obliged to study it.  And the copy/paste stuck out as a possible scum tell for you.  So I noted it.

I had no problem with your post or analysis (which was correct, I did copy the last bit and pasted it above for clarification)... mail-mi was the one implying directly that my doing so was scummy and the one I took issue with and hence why I responded to him and not you.

Saving the text somewhere that I wouldn't lose would have taken far longer than copy and pasting a quick note at the top of the post so that is why I did what I did.

I don't use computer sticky notes or word pages when I write up posts like many players do, I just use the thread posts so the best place for me to save something is to just post it, but since that was kinda an ugly rough draft I thought it appropriate to clarify that a cleaner, easier to read version would be on its way before I posted at the top of the page...

[mail-mi]

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

Was it mean girls that yuma said he only copy&pasted as scum?

I have no idea if I said that or not and don't see why it is relevant here....

I copied the last statement above and put it at the top so that people wouldn't have to read through the slog before getting to the bottom and realizing I would be writing up a more concise post later... cause that would be annoying.

Are you asking if being considerate to others is scummy? Cause the answer I hope would be no.

See: ashs post.

[yuma]

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

Was it mean girls that yuma said he only copy&pasted as scum?

I have no idea if I said that or not and don't see why it is relevant here....

I copied the last statement above and put it at the top so that people wouldn't have to read through the slog before getting to the bottom and realizing I would be writing up a more concise post later... cause that would be annoying.

Are you asking if being considerate to others is scummy? Cause the answer I hope would be no.

See: ashs post.

No. Answer my question. Is being considerate to others scummy? I asked you. I didn't ask ash.

[mail-mi]

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

Was it mean girls that yuma said he only copy&pasted as scum?

I have no idea if I said that or not and don't see why it is relevant here....

I copied the last statement above and put it at the top so that people wouldn't have to read through the slog before getting to the bottom and realizing I would be writing up a more concise post later... cause that would be annoying.

Are you asking if being considerate to others is scummy? Cause the answer I hope would be no.

See: ashs post.

No. Answer my question. Is being considerate to others scummy? I asked you. I didn't ask ash.

No, it isnt. Ash pointed something out, which triggered a memory of what you said once. Why are you taking this so far?

[yuma]

No, it isnt. Ash pointed something out, which triggered a memory of what you said once. Why are you taking this so far?

I'm not taking it far. I just wanted you to answer my question. because the moment that you type something like "yuma once said something similar as scum" paints me as scum and that is always something that I am going to respond to and press to get an answer as to why.

So my next question is that if it isn't scummy then why did you even bring it up? If my doing it here isn't scummy then why intentionally connect dots to something that I may have done before as scum?

[yuma]

but mail-mi what I would really like from you is a summary of why you are voting 2.7

[Ichimaru Gin]

Everyone buys the partner excuse for Ichimaru (the idea that his partner would have warned him not to be so scumny) ? I could see a partner encouraging him to continue to act this way, fully expecting us to raise this very argument.

In fact, no one seems to care about the chairs situation, so vote: Ichimaru

This sounds like WIFOM to me. I mean, either way, there's a scum/town argument for me if that's the way you want to spin it. Also, the whole "since this other lynch isn't going through (although I think you're giving up too soon) , I'm just gonna vote x without much reason" doesn't sound right to me. I'd like to hear more than 1 sentence explaining your vote.

It's unfortunate that it seems that this day is turning out somewhat uneventful as well. Faust may have done some strange stuff D1, but it certainly made things a lot more exciting.
I think it's a good idea to try to get a lynch before New Year's Eve. I'll be back tomorrow--after going over a lot of old posts  to refresh my memory on reads and such.

[yuma]

[quote author=Ichimaru Gin link=topic=9840.msg330244#msg330244
I think it's a good idea to try to get a lynch before New Year's Eve. I'll be back tomorrow--after going over a lot of old posts  to refresh my memory on reads and such.
[/quote]

I don't necessarily think we need to get a lynch before New Years as that is a very small space of time and we have some time left after as the deadline is.... the 2nd? so actually not much. I thought for some reason the deadline was later than that (even with the added extension) like the 5th or something...? so yeah, maybe at least a strong push toward getting a lynch before new years would be in town's best interest after all.

Again I repeat the request for everyone voting to explain their reasons for voting ASAP. I know I am not the IC, but we need this to get going again, so do this before you do anything else in regard to this game!

[mail-mi]

Ok.  I am going to do something crazy. 

vote: chairs

Yes, I get that he could be a PR.  I get that.  I saw it as soon as Voltaire mentioned the secret case before he had to explain it to the whole world

But

he could also be scum. (or the SK)

JK9++ could have up to 7(!) town PRs.  that is a lot.  Chairs could also be our only PR.  Or he could be one of many.  We could have a SK.  We might not.  Which is why JK9++ is impossible to "solve" D1.  Which will make it super fun later on, but right now is kind of annoying since we don't know anything.

However, I am looking at viable lynches and who we will actually learn something about going into D2.  We will learn stuff about chairs.  I also think we have the votes to pull it off.

I believe mail-mi, Ashersky, Lekkit, Eevee, myself will all vote chairs.  The interesting thing is that this basically is almost all of everyone's scum reads (except liopoil).  So this is also intriguing if he does flip scum.  Now, if he flips town PR we will all feel bad and have nice little accusations thrown at us.

But the point is, we can learn more from a chairs lynch than any other lynch right now.

This post gives me all the wrong feelings. Not the vote, cause I think the vote is fine. The entire post. Like, "Yeah he could be a PR but guess what--we have could have 7!" just rubs me all the wrong ways. vote: e to have it somewhere before faust comes.

Oh wait, deadline is 2:20, which is 12:20, which means I won't be on until then. Well, vote: liopoil because he's more viable.

@yuma, it's this. I know I also voted for chairs, but the reasoning is all wrong to me.

...and his first post of the day.

[2.71828.....]

I've also been reading, but I don't really have anything to say.

That is very helpful thing to do as a town member scum.  Not discuss things.

[2.71828.....]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

this. 
chairs does have something to talk about

[2.71828.....]

Seeing scumteams already Robz ? That would be a lot of partners for ash. I still don't underqtand how this behavior would be particularly scummy.

Everyone buys the partner excuse for Ichimaru (the idea that his parrner would have warned him not to be so scumny) ? I could see a partner encouraging him to continue to act this way, fully expecting us to raise this very argument.

In fact, no one seems to care about the chairs situation, so vote: Ichimaru

I agree with Robz that this statement seems scummy to me.  "let's give up on chairs to move to a more popular lynch target" says "all I want to do is lynch people because I am scum."

[yuma]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

this. 
chairs does have something to talk about

chairs only has one vote. I don't think he should claim unless we start thinking we should in fact lynch him and people start to vote him, but right now I don't know if anyone is going to vote unless they know why they should vote... so like I asked, could you (since you are the lone vote on chairs) reassemble why we should consider lynching him, or at least link to places where this has been talked about previously so people can refresh on this?

[ashersky]

Case on Voltaire:

2nd post of the game: Asks for a massclaim.
A few posts later: called out on it, backtracks.  "Oh, I meant flavor claim...whoopsie sorry bumpkins!"

Continues to play the "but I don't think scum have fake claims" card, which is what I expect scum!Voltaire to play.
Also admits that mass claim outs the PRs, but argues that it's okay to do that anyway.

He says "scum may not know things until N1."  Why in the world would that be the case in JK9++?  Unless there's a flavor thing, and he only knows to say this if he's scum and knows it is true.

Later on D1, when 2.7 flavor claims, Voltaire's all like "HOLD UP HOSS!!!" and acts like 2.7 did some crazy bad stuff, but he himself had been advocating a mass claim and then flavor claim earlier in the day.  Inconsistent much?  First he tries to out PRs, then he tries to gain towncred by complaining about a claim, which he wanted in the first place.

Later on, he says the exact words "we're not playing a variant."  So he admits to knowing we are NOT playing a variant, and yet earlier, he says "scum may not know things until N1" which would of course suggest a variant.  More inconsistency.

He claims chairs is "99% town" and yet lambasts me non-stop for days about me saying faust is "100% scum."  Huh.  Nice to meet you Pot.

He used a scumslip/townslip argument on D1, even though he claims to not believe in slips.

"Secret case" on chairs.  Secret cases are scummy.  See Robz in Modern Community.

Voltaire had a forgotten wagon on him D1, yet it doesn't get brought up at all.  mail-mi, Ichimaru, and Lekkit were on it.

Late on D1, he proclaims a town read on Lekkit, although he had voted him twice (once RVS) and Lekkit was voting for him at the time.  Bus?

Voltaire called me town on D1, multiple times.  After calling me scummy and voting me.  The I'm on his "willing to lynch" list later in the day. And now he's tunneling me. 

Protects Lekkit from lynch when the "lynch a random lurker" plan falls on Lekkit.

As the day was winding down, he just started throwing his vote around ("mail-mi anyone?" "I'm tempted to vote for E", etc.) looking for a wagon to get going.

Voltaire came out early as BELIEVING faust's fake claim.  Who's more likely to believe town's claim, town or scum?  Scum, of course.  Because scum knows that person is town.  So why was Voltaire one of the very few believing the fake claim?  If faust's town lie helps us at all, maybe it is with this.

Even after the lie comes out, Voltaire pushes the "Faust must be town" motif.  He does this for town cred, and the ability to say "I TOLD YOU SO" on D2.

He then says he won't vote for me, again.  He tries mail-mi and Eevee various times, then is not around for the hammer on Faust.


And that ends D1.  That's a lot of case already.  I'll do D2 now.

[2.71828.....]

So, do people agree with me that chairs should claim ? The main reason we usually don't want people to claim out of the blue is that they might be NKed, but scum probably knows that chairs is a PR already, so why not make him claim and see what his N1 action was ? It gives us more info about the setup (although it does give info to scum too, possibly), and if he's lying scum his result might get him in trouble. I'm pretty sure his survival means he'd get run up to L-1 anyway (I'd certainly vote for him), so I think we might as well do it now.

this. 
chairs does have something to talk about

chairs only has one vote. I don't think he should claim unless we start thinking we should in fact lynch him and people start to vote him, but right now I don't know if anyone is going to vote unless they know why they should vote... so like I asked, could you (since you are the lone vote on chairs) reassemble why we should consider lynching him, or at least link to places where this has been talked about previously so people can refresh on this?

I wasn't necessarily saying I think he should claim.  I was more commenting on the fact that he says he has nothing to say.  He can at least respond as to whether he thinks he should/should not do this.

I will work on compiling a case against Chairs.  He hasn't been around much.  At all.  So I won't have much to go on.

[Robz888]

Okay, trying to get back into this. Some lynch options...

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

Mail-mi: Someone wants to lynch mail-mi, I think? Voltaire, yes? Maybe yuma? Do you still? Why?

2.7: I remember thinking his stances on faust were opportunistic. Others find him scummy for other reasons, yes?

Ichimaru: I've explained why I don't like this lynch, for now at least. Not because he isn't acting scummy--he definitely is--but because we don't have a frame of reference for him, the scum partners thing, and honestly it just seems too easy.

That leaves... Teproc (didn't like him defending ash, don't remember much else), Lekkit (can't remember a thing about him), and Voltaire (is playing me very well if he's scum, which is probably possible and I should try to think about, but I can't help see him as town for now).

[2.71828.....]

The case against chairs is that he is either a PR or scum.  Not a VT.  We have been working under the assumption that he is a PR.  However, we are more than halfway through D2 and he has not acted like a PR (in my opinion).  So I think that he is scum.  Now, it could be the case that he is a non-investigative PR (like doctor, jailkeeper, hider, 1-shot commuter, vengeful, or vigilante) in which case he does not have extra information to share with town that helps us lynch.  But we have elevated him to a position of being above suspicion, and he has done nothing to merit this in my opinion.

Please see my most recent statement.  "no face officers" are literally just "generic officer A" - people without a special face - or at least that's my impression of the data provided to us.  I believe that claiming names outs our PRs, albeit with the potential that we can WIFOM with scum regarding whether they claim No Face or a named officer.

-----------------------

My concern is that I don't think the lynch pool will be sufficiently small, and we have to WIFOM whether scum will claim VT (by claiming No Face) or PR (by providing a name).

Now, I was a little wrong in my last post about chairs.  He did respond to Teproc in the following post

Ok then. I think the best odds of finding scum right now is chairs. Of course scum might have been framing him by going PR-hunting, but it's not like Eevee was a surefire PR or anything, he had expressed disliking day 1s before and could easily have been a VT. He also seemed scummy to a lot of people, so by killing him, mafia also lost a potential mislynch if he was VT. This leads me to think that the probability of chairs being scum is much higher than the probability of a scumteam trying to frame him.

vote: chairs

As someone who is 100% sure I'm town, I can only assume that scum believe one of the following:

1) I will use my PR poorly/my PR is weak and they needn't bother killing me.
2) I will be mislynched today because of their kill choice last night, ensuring both a kill and another mislynch.
3) I'm not actually a PR, just a VT trying to gambit my way into looking PR-ish.

Obviously I know whether or not I'm really a PR, and I know I'm town.  If I'm a PR, and I had anything beneficial related to my PR to provide to town, clearly I would do so.

[ashersky]

Only 15 posts for Voltaire on D2, and it is almost exclusively tunneling me.  He mentions "hating" the 2.7 lynch idea, and that he would vote lio if he can't get me mislynched.

So, that's the Volt case.  Was that what you wanted, yuma?


If I had to guess now, I'd say the scum team could be:

Voltaire, Lekkit, 3rd

or

Robz, Ichimaru, Voltaire

[Robz888]

Looks like I left chairs out of my post. Um, well yeah, I agree, PR or scum. Not really sure what to do about that. I think he's a little suspicious for surviving obviously, but not like the most suspicious person or anything. And we really don't want him to claim unless he's like a leading lynch candidate, I think. I gather that not enough people really suspect him, so it's probably just best if he keeps quiet for one more night.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And here's what I feel about the current lynch options.

Ashersky: To be honest, I'm uncertain on this one. I think his overconfidence--even before Faust did anything really incriminating, does seem scummy. Yet, the case is still unconvincing to me. The sheer speed of the original wagon still makes me suspicious.

Teproc: He actually reads pretty scummy to me. Reasons at the end of this post.

Lekkit: Has really been lurking about as much as others, yet hasn't received the same suspicion for it. Interesting.

Liopoil/Chairs: Lurker lynches. Not the best, but still viable options pending how uneventful the rest of this day is. I agree that chairs should claim

2.7: I've honestly forgotten the details of this case.

Voltaire: Ash's post helped refresh my memory and better understand everything that has transpired. Totally ok with this one.

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

[yuma]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

I am still fine with the liopoil lynch as well, but no one has even commented on my points about him in regard to where his wagon was at when faust crazyclaimed--seriously am I the only one that finds it interesting that his wagons was the largest and then he received basically zero votes for the rest of the day while his counterparts for a possible lynch received a bunch?

[chairs]

My apologies for the inactivity - my free time is not my own anymore.  yuma, how do you manage to do this with a kid? I just have the girlfriend and I'm already out of time!

I have been promised that I'll have free time tonight.

[liopoil]

checking in, anything anyone wants me to address?

[liopoil]

you don't really explain why very many of these things are scummy, it's more of a 'look at everything voltaire has said this game!'. and a lot of those things are reasons I find voltaire townie.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

You must have missed my point that I don't believe that Teproc has contributed much (that he hasn't really been that involved). He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

I'm still not sold on a chairs or Ashersky lynch as of now, (in particular I believe that chairs has been legitimately busy).

I am currently suspicious of those involved in the Ash lynch--which IMO ramped up way to quickly. I have a town read on Liopoil for the above quote.

Also, another non-sarcastic question, how is OMGUS scummy? Is it just because it's read as a poor reason to vote for someone, saving scum from actually having to make a case, or possibly have accountability for their vote?

[liopoil]

Ok more concise post:

1. liopoil was the largest wagon at the time that faust claimed and the thread turned into chaos
2. after that point he received very few votes compared to others who were in that category of possibly being lynched (specifically sure 2.7, eevee and mail-mi)
3. the main points against liopoil from day1 are lurking and responding passively to suspicion (I maintain that liopoil responds more aggressively as scum) and that it is compelling that his lynch was not brought up as a possibility against him after faust claimed
4. points I would add are his case against 2.7 today (I tend to find arguments that so and so talked about why the NK died to be from scum, but this isn't always true. I did it as town in GoT against Voltaire when we were both town for example), general lurky behavior today (and I don't just mean during his VLA, rather that he has posted but really only participated in a dialogue with ashersky and hasn't done much else)

is number 1 supposed to be a reason to suspect me? I mean, it's not like faust claimed to protect me... faust was town! or is it 'There was support for the lio mislynch before, why can't we mislynch him now?' Being almost-lynched isn't suspicious, especially because of faust's claim.

#2: ...because my scumbuddies did all that voting? I would think my hypothetical scumbuddies would vote for faust, not e or mail-mi or eevee after faust's claim. And I don't remember those wagons growing much, I remember primarily everyone moving to faust, some from my wagon, some from others.

#3: a couple things here..... first off, would you prefer I always react aggresively to cases on me as town? because I don't think doing that is effective, except that maybe it would convince yuma because it would be fufilling my meta. But it isn't a meta I really want to continue... because people don't respond positively to aggression. I think I am more likely to avoid being mislynched via a more a reserved response. In previous games as town the cases on me have been really frustrating and have the frustration leaks out. And in previous games as scum I've had more of a motive to avoid the lynch, and also wasn't frustrated because the case was correct. This game, the points against me haven't been just blatantly false like I think they have been before, and so I am not particularly frustrated. If I were to react as I have in prior town games this game, then it would be fake, and being town, I am not going to fake emotions.

#4: well I haven't found that at all, and you said yourself that it isn't always accurate. Seems like this is a point you just added on because why not. Prior to my V/LA I do not think that I was particularly lurky on D2.

[Ichimaru Gin]

EDIT: Forgot to put Liopoil's quote in.

yuma, that's L-1

Unvote

This is the "above quote" I was referring to.

[yuma]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

You must have missed my point that I don't believe that Teproc has contributed much (that he hasn't really been that involved). He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

Ok... but you need to prove this if it is actually true. Right now you are just saying it without backing it up. You say he is doing things that look to be towny. Why aren't they just towny things? What makes them change from "towny" to "the appearance of towny?"

Sure, no one is above suspicion and maybe Teproc deserves some scrutiny but you are just saying things w/o going back to check as far as I can tell. Doing so--and then voting!--without going back to check and make sure your remembering is correct in conjunction with the OMGUS mention does make it look like it is more of a cover for a OMGUS vote and hence why I think it is scummy of you.

[yuma]

Also, another non-sarcastic question, how is OMGUS scummy? Is it just because it's read as a poor reason to vote for someone, saving scum from actually having to make a case, or possibly have accountability for their vote?

OMGUS is--or can be--scummy because it is twofold. One it discredits the case that is on you (the case on me is bad because he is scum!) and second moves the focus away from you toward him (don't look at me, look at him!)

It isn't always scummy, but it certainly can be used. I think everyone that has played as scum has used it before, especially as sometimes it obtains the reputation of being so scummy, scum would never do it, but scum does.

[liopoil]

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

I find both of these suspicious. Both are disclaimed at the end saying that it might be town!ash or town!lio. ash first:

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

I really find it weird that robz isn't totally sold on the reason for suspecting me like he was before. Reads to me like it was an attempt to get me mislynched yesterday, but today there's more viable mislynches like ashersky. I remember he sort of did that in the B2B game that got reset, so when robz was scum and I was still town.

So I'm thinking that most likely one of robz and ashersky is scum, but ashersky is still more likely.

[liopoil]

Vote count please

[yuma]

Ok more concise post:

1. liopoil was the largest wagon at the time that faust claimed and the thread turned into chaos
2. after that point he received very few votes compared to others who were in that category of possibly being lynched (specifically sure 2.7, eevee and mail-mi)
3. the main points against liopoil from day1 are lurking and responding passively to suspicion (I maintain that liopoil responds more aggressively as scum) and that it is compelling that his lynch was not brought up as a possibility against him after faust claimed
4. points I would add are his case against 2.7 today (I tend to find arguments that so and so talked about why the NK died to be from scum, but this isn't always true. I did it as town in GoT against Voltaire when we were both town for example), general lurky behavior today (and I don't just mean during his VLA, rather that he has posted but really only participated in a dialogue with ashersky and hasn't done much else)

is number 1 supposed to be a reason to suspect me? I mean, it's not like faust claimed to protect me... faust was town! or is it 'There was support for the lio mislynch before, why can't we mislynch him now?' Being almost-lynched isn't suspicious, especially because of faust's claim.

#2: ...because my scumbuddies did all that voting? I would think my hypothetical scumbuddies would vote for faust, not e or mail-mi or eevee after faust's claim. And I don't remember those wagons growing much, I remember primarily everyone moving to faust, some from my wagon, some from others.

#3: a couple things here..... first off, would you prefer I always react aggresively to cases on me as town? because I don't think doing that is effective, except that maybe it would convince yuma because it would be fufilling my meta. But it isn't a meta I really want to continue... because people don't respond positively to aggression. I think I am more likely to avoid being mislynched via a more a reserved response. In previous games as town the cases on me have been really frustrating and have the frustration leaks out. And in previous games as scum I've had more of a motive to avoid the lynch, and also wasn't frustrated because the case was correct. This game, the points against me haven't been just blatantly false like I think they have been before, and so I am not particularly frustrated. If I were to react as I have in prior town games this game, then it would be fake, and being town, I am not going to fake emotions.

#4: well I haven't found that at all, and you said yourself that it isn't always accurate. Seems like this is a point you just added on because why not. Prior to my V/LA I do not think that I was particularly lurky on D2.

point 1 alone certainly isn't a reason to vote or lynch you, but it is part of point 2. I do find it striking that you were highly considered as a lynch option and hadn't done anything to get rid of that suspicion yourself... rather it was faust claiming that got rid of it for you (and of course I am not saying faust claimed to protect you... I know he is town, you know he is town, so obviously lio I must be saying something else....) and then never received that suspicion back as day1 progressed while the other potential candidates at the time of faust's claim (eevee, 2.7 and mail-mi) all did. Don't you see why that is interesting? Why were you ignored while the focus was put on others? That is the question I am trying to probe that everyone has ignored except for you at this point.

point3: your meta is your own deal. you do what you want with it, but don't get frustrated for me finding you suspicious because of it. You created it, if you want to change it go ahead if you don't want to change it don't, but I am not just going to give you a pass this game while you say you are going to change it.

point4: I added it because I was going through your day2 stuff and it was the only thing that stood out. I think you have been lurky day2--VLA aside--not in terms of post count but rather that you really only had a back and forth with ash that really didn't require you to post anything other than bickering back and forth. You aren't the only player that has lurker or lacked content day2, but this isn't the sole reason I was voting you.

[Robz888]

Vote count please

I yelled at mcmc to do one. He's sitting on the couch over there.

[yuma]

Until we get an official one

Vote count yuma.3
2.7... (2): mail-mi, chairs
ashersky (3): Robz, Voltaire, liopoil
chairs (1): 2.7...
Ichimaru Gin (3): Lekkit, Teproc, yuma
voltaire (1): ashersky
teproc (1):/b] Ichimaru Gin

[Voltaire]

I'm back! Replying as I catch up.

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

This is scum!ash. Throwing crap at literally every player, trying to find something that sticks.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 2.4

2.7... (2): mail-mi, chairs
ashersky (3): Robz, Voltaire, Liopoil
chairs (1): 2.7...
Ichimaru Gin (3): Lekkit, Teproc, Yuma
Voltaire (1): ashersky
Teproc (1): Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (0):

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm. To account for holidays

[Robz888]

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

I find both of these suspicious. Both are disclaimed at the end saying that it might be town!ash or town!lio. ash first:

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

I really find it weird that robz isn't totally sold on the reason for suspecting me like he was before. Reads to me like it was an attempt to get me mislynched yesterday, but today there's more viable mislynches like ashersky. I remember he sort of did that in the B2B game that got reset, so when robz was scum and I was still town.

So I'm thinking that most likely one of robz and ashersky is scum, but ashersky is still more likely.

I was being honest--I don't think the cases against ash or you are rock solid. I don't oversell my cases when I don't think their great. You're right that I usually think ash's crazy antics make him town, but I think I just don't read ash as well as I used to think I did. I mean, if you're going off of what Robz's scum strategy toward ash is, you should be well aware that my usual style is to get ash on my side by proclaiming how townie he is. I did this in Tory Story Mafia when you and I were a team--remember how furious I was when the other team shot ash?

One of you or I is misremembering how scummy I thought you were yesterday, and I think it's you. I was all about Eevee and faust for the second half of Day 1. You were a top scumread when the other cases were weak, but then you fell behind other people who had considerably better evidence against them, like faust. Why is this scummy?

[Voltaire]

Mail-mi: Someone wants to lynch mail-mi, I think? Voltaire, yes? Maybe yuma? Do you still? Why?

Yeah, but ash is a better option today & I'm more certain of my read on ash.

[Voltaire]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

You must have missed my point that I don't believe that Teproc has contributed much (that he hasn't really been that involved). He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

I'm still not sold on a chairs or Ashersky lynch as of now, (in particular I believe that chairs has been legitimately busy).

I am currently suspicious of those involved in the Ash lynch--which IMO ramped up way to quickly. I have a town read on Liopoil for the above quote.

Also, another non-sarcastic question, how is OMGUS scummy? Is it just because it's read as a poor reason to vote for someone, saving scum from actually having to make a case, or possibly have accountability for their vote?

OMGUS is not scummy. We call it that, but in my opinion town OMGUSs more than scum.

[2.71828.....]

Teproc: He actually reads pretty scummy to me. Reasons at the end of this post.


I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

Explain to me how this is a good case to bring against someone?  He has been active, hasn't drawn any suspicion, therefore Teproc is scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

I think vote: Ichimaru. You say this isn't OMGUS, but don't give a reason for why it isn't except that he hasn't received any suspicion and done some towny things. This looks like OMGUS attempted at being disguised as something else, but really, I think it is just OMGUS something newbie scum can and has done in the past.

You must have missed my point that I don't believe that Teproc has contributed much (that he hasn't really been that involved). He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

Ok... but you need to prove this if it is actually true. Right now you are just saying it without backing it up. You say he is doing things that look to be towny. Why aren't they just towny things? What makes them change from "towny" to "the appearance of towny?"

Sure, no one is above suspicion and maybe Teproc deserves some scrutiny but you are just saying things w/o going back to check as far as I can tell. Doing so--and then voting!--without going back to check and make sure your remembering is correct in conjunction with the OMGUS mention does make it look like it is more of a cover for a OMGUS vote and hence why I think it is scummy of you.

I did actually go back and read through until page 25-30. I probably should have quoted what I believe to be the most relevant posts, but I'm having a little trouble using the search function.
How do you specifically search for posts a single player has made? Because when I search Teproc in this this thread, it only brings up the posts where other players mentioned his name--not posts he made himself.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, another non-sarcastic question, how is OMGUS scummy? Is it just because it's read as a poor reason to vote for someone, saving scum from actually having to make a case, or possibly have accountability for their vote?

OMGUS is--or can be--scummy because it is twofold. One it discredits the case that is on you (the case on me is bad because he is scum!) and second moves the focus away from you toward him (don't look at me, look at him!)

It isn't always scummy, but it certainly can be used. I think everyone that has played as scum has used it before, especially as sometimes it obtains the reputation of being so scummy, scum would never do it, but scum does.

OMGUS is not scummy. We call it that, but in my opinion town OMGUSs more than scum.

Ok.

[2.71828.....]

How do you specifically search for posts a single player has made? Because when I search Teproc in this this thread, it only brings up the posts where other players mentioned his name--not posts he made himself.

I view all the pages, then ctrl+f and search "goko username: teproc" or some variation of that.  Other people might do it differently but that is what I do.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Teproc: He actually reads pretty scummy to me. Reasons at the end of this post.


I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

Explain to me how this is a good case to bring against someone?  He has been active, hasn't drawn any suspicion, therefore Teproc is scum.

He has posted, yet he is playing things safe to a point that I find scummy. Also, I repeat, has Teproc done anything to deserve this? No one should be above suspicion, so why hasn't anyone else been suspicious of him? I believe this to be a legitimate reason for voting someone, but perhaps this logic doesn't work. It at least makes sense to me.

Ok. It makes sense that if someone is town, they know that suspicion against them is a waste of time for town and potentially dangerous, but there main goal is scumhunting. However, scum has the most motivation to avoid suspicion--really that is scum's motivation. I simply see Teproc doing a great job of avoiding suspicion, while contributing in the sense that he is posting--but not really doing much else.

PPE: Thanks e, I should be back soon with the relevant posts.

[Teproc]

Ok, yuma :

- I guess the liopoil thing could be qualified as "interesting", but I don't see exactly what it gives us regarding liopoil's alignement, or anyone's for that matter. This is why I didn't adress it. Part of what made the liopoil wagon go away, even before faust claimed, was his surge of activity right ? I could be wrong here, but his response to the wagon read somewhat town as I recall (to me at least).

- I will reread Ichimaru to justify my vote on him more, but he's been scummy all around on both days (OMGUS, voting with sometimes little reason on ongoing wagons), and I don't really buy the argument that a partner would have been able (or indeed want to) prevent this "obvscum" behaviour.

To Ichimaru : yes this is all WIFOM, but everything is basically. Scumslips are the only ones, and those have proven to be a very ineffective way to catch scum (they're generally made by town). I think "WIFOM" is a concept that scum loves to use because it makes everyone unsure and indecisive.

I probably have other stuff to say but I have to check on Chocolate Factory nad I don't have a lot of time*

* This isn't really worth posting in the V/LA thread but I'm currently in the Alps, skiing. I'm still able to check in here on the afternoons and evenings, but I won't be as active as I was, say, day 1 here.

[yuma]

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

I find both of these suspicious. Both are disclaimed at the end saying that it might be town!ash or town!lio. ash first:

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

I really find it weird that robz isn't totally sold on the reason for suspecting me like he was before. Reads to me like it was an attempt to get me mislynched yesterday, but today there's more viable mislynches like ashersky. I remember he sort of did that in the B2B game that got reset, so when robz was scum and I was still town.

So I'm thinking that most likely one of robz and ashersky is scum, but ashersky is still more likely.

Ummmm. this is the post I find suspicious liopoil.

"robz's post is scummy, but I agree with him and will vote ash and if it turns out we are wrong and ash flips town, don't blame and lynch me for it, lynch robz instead"

[2.71828.....]

So right now people are kind of falling into two categories for me (note, this is the way it was at the beginning of my post, say 45 minutes ago.  My reads changed as I reread as you will see):

wouldn't mind lynching: Ashersky, Chairs, Ichimaru, mail-mi, liopoil
Don't really want to lynch: Teproc, Lekkit, Robz, Voltaire, yuma

I will focus on the 5 "wouldn't mind lynching" people

Ashersky- His play has been, uh, interesting.  I really don't know what to make of it.  I could see it coming from scum!ash or town!ash.  willing to vote

Chairs- Has had trouble finding time to get online recently, which is fine.  Even though I am voting him right now, I do not really see this lynch happening and will probably switch my vote before I leave to go party in the new year.

Ichimaru- The new guy.  I was there in the not-so-distant past.  What I see from him is a lot opportunistic voting, preemptive self defense (the OMGUS thing and all), and a lot of good interaction.  I like his contribution level, and I think I see him getting more and more comfortable as the game progresses.  I want to hear a better case against Teproc though.  His posts have had a scummy ring to them, but I do not think I am ready to vote for him yet.

mail-mi- is voting me because of the stance I took on chairs for a bit yesterday and because of my first (second actually, but first with content) post of today.  I really don't have much against him, and I think his case against me is a towny one.  I would need a refresher on why mail-mi is scum before I voted him.  In fact, I really don't think he should be on my "wouldn't mind lynching" list

liopoil- I like his response to the case brought against him by yuma.  Looking back I don't really feel like lynching him all too much, but if we need a lynch I might be persuaded to vote him on the 2nd.  I also think he has an interesting point about Robz.

In fact, Robz? Here is some stuff on him- Opens up the liopoil case that "scum!lio struggles early but plays better late."  Gets a bunch of sheep.  He originally gives slight credence to my Faust case, but then is turned off the case by Ashersky.  He throws out his vote for sale here saying he is concerned about a bad D1.  Jumps to Lekkit for a lurker lynch temporarily before realizing Lekkit wasn't really lurking just posting less frequently but still with content, then moves to Eevee as his lurker lynch after I point out that Eevee is more of a lurker.  Throws his vote out for sale again.  Has the whole episode of "wait no one post info about the setup because it might help scum!faust with a fakeclaim." (starting here)  He then jumps onto the little wagon against me for a bit here before Faust reveals that he was lying about his fakeclaim.  Robz then ends the day with his vote on me, after unvoting Faust to avoid ending the day before some people could comment.  I recognize his "D1s are famously lacksadaisical" (to quote Ash from BM14 since he put it so nicely in the role PM) but putting his vote up for sale? twice?  His D2 has not been great but no one has really stood out too much as being amazing, and I think he can probably (safely) trust that his meta will carry him through and avoid a lynch.

So this has been long and winding and a bunch of people posted while I was typing this, but I think it lands me at vote: Robz.  I am not comfortable with the way he went through D1, and he has not done anything today to shake that feeling.

Current reads:
Would lynch: Robz, Ichimaru, Ashersky
Would lynch on the 2nd before deadline: Chairs, liopoil
Would take some persuading, but might vote for them: mail-mi, Teproc, Lekkit
Not interested in lynching today: Yuma, Voltaire

[Robz888]

In fact, Robz? Here is some stuff on him- Opens up the liopoil case that "scum!lio struggles early but plays better late."  Gets a bunch of sheep.  He originally gives slight credence to my Faust case, but then is turned off the case by Ashersky.  He throws out his vote for sale here saying he is concerned about a bad D1.  Jumps to Lekkit for a lurker lynch temporarily before realizing Lekkit wasn't really lurking just posting less frequently but still with content, then moves to Eevee as his lurker lynch after I point out that Eevee is more of a lurker.  Throws his vote out for sale again.  Has the whole episode of "wait no one post info about the setup because it might help scum!faust with a fakeclaim." (starting here)  He then jumps onto the little wagon against me for a bit here before Faust reveals that he was lying about his fakeclaim.  Robz then ends the day with his vote on me, after unvoting Faust to avoid ending the day before some people could comment.  I recognize his "D1s are famously lacksadaisical" (to quote Ash from BM14 since he put it so nicely in the role PM) but putting his vote up for sale? twice?  His D2 has not been great but no one has really stood out too much as being amazing, and I think he can probably (safely) trust that his meta will carry him through and avoid a lynch.

These are things I did, not things I did that were scummy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hmmm. This is not great for me, because I don't think faust is scum and I really don't think ash is scum.

I looked at the setup recently, and if I remember correctly, Vengeful has  50% chance to happen if one K is rolled, and there will always be at least one Vengeful if more than one K is rolled.

Vengeful is probably the go to scum fakeclaim but... I mean, it's a pretty likely role to exist, and I do think his timing makes sense here. I wouldn't have claimed at that point myself, but it makes sense to help narrow the lynch down.

Basically, I think his claim doesn't change anything to his likelihood of being town/scum. But I don't want to lynch him because I believe ash to be town, and I'm not confident either way as to faust's alignment.

What makes me scummy ?

You're against claiming, but I felt your reasoning was kind of forced given we have THE POWER OF THE INTERNET.

That's some interesting logic. I mean, what is town supposed to do in this situation, just say nothing ? I guess it would be more accurate to say that you find e townier than me in that argument, more than me being scummier ? Since what you're saying is that scum wouldn't hold a "nonsensical" position, not really that town wouldn't try to "make sense".

Basically I see what you're saying, but it seems to me that your logic should be giving you a town read on e rather than a scum read on me.

And I still disagree with it. People make mistakes/are wrong all the time, scum or town. And e was actually right about names not giving away PRs.

This post is confusing (only to me?)

My problem is not your case per se. It's day 1, everyone's case is going to be weak. My problem is that you're trying to paint it as more than it is in order to look like a good active townie scumhunter.

Asking everyone to give their opinion about faust is leading town, which is scummy. Of course you could be town and just trying to get the game active. Sure. I just don't think you are.

More WIFOM

To Ichimaru : yes this is all WIFOM, but everything is basically. Scumslips are the only ones, and those have proven to be a very ineffective way to catch scum (they're generally made by town). I think "WIFOM" is a concept that scum loves to use because it makes everyone unsure and indecisive.

Everything is WIFOM? Really? I mean that's not really a statement I can verify or refute, given my inexperience, but this strikes me as odd.
It seems like more conclusive cases can be built, and are in fact raised against people--based upon more than twisting semi-neutral facts to support a preconceived position (something I have been guilty of myself). The difference is, I believe I acknowledged it as poor strategy.

Also, I can't find the post, but somewhere Teproc said something about him being less fearless than Ash. It was after Faust claimed and threatened Ash, and Teproc said something about how he would have handled things differently if he had been threatened.

So in short I think Teproc is scummy because

1. He flipped back and forth about Ash D1, a lot. And generally had a lot of light reads on people which he shifted around, often contradicting each other. I know that there's not a lot of information D1, but such unaccountable behavior reads scum to me. And as I have already mentioned, he avoided suspicion for this.

 2. I read boldness and certainty (even over-certainty) as town. Teproc's general lack of conviction on most of his votes reads scum to me. Although Ash is getting flak for his early "100%" read on Faust, I think extreme statements elicit extreme responses--thereby making it harder for scum to hide in ambiguity--something I believe Teproc to be doing.

3. Everything is WIFOM? Well it's pretty obvious that a lot of his cases do follow this. e.g. this behavior could be interpreted as town or scum trying to get town cred, but for really no reason at all, I believe the latter.
Still, I think this statement is just an excuse/cover-up for poor scumhunting on Teproc's part. WIFOM is basically an argument out of thin air--given the semblance of conviction through bias.

[ashersky]

I'm back! Replying as I catch up.

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

This is scum!ash. Throwing crap at literally every player, trying to find something that sticks.

Way to respond to the very detail case against you.  Meanwhile, you just keep saying "this is scum!ash" over and over like that makes it true.  You have zilch as far as a case against me.

Listen, and this is for everyone: I am never "caught" as scum for being scummy or saying scummy things.  I say anything and everything as both alignments.  You all just gave an extreme bias against me.  Look at my scum history.  Scum 4 times in 3 games, most recent first:

--lynched after caught by cop
--lynched after subbing in for VLA final scum
--lynched after white flag after caught by claiming
--game prematurely ended after I would have been caught by botched vote count

Not so recently?  Fake claimed famously in Mean Girls, survived to the end in Noir.  My first two scum games, as a newb, were the only times I was lynched as scum for being scummy, and both were before my meta was established.

So, make a case with evidence, Voltaire.  If you really want to just keep banging a drum and hoping people dance to it, you will get caught, eventually.

[Voltaire]

I'm back! Replying as I catch up.

The thing that stuck out to me a lot from yuma's big post was that his first and last lines are exactly the same.  I'd guess he copy and pasted it.

This is scum!ash. Throwing crap at literally every player, trying to find something that sticks.

Way to respond to the very detail case against you.  Meanwhile, you just keep saying "this is scum!ash" over and over like that makes it true.  You have zilch as far as a case against me.

Dude, you just quoted an example of me stating you are scum and providing a reason with an example. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not simply stating things are true! That's you and Mr. Faust.

[Voltaire]

Case on Voltaire:

As far as this is concerned, I'll echo lio's "this is a list of things Volt has done, not reasons why he is scum."

As far as specific things are concerned, do you not see why I, as town, wanted to avoid saying why I thought chairs was town? Yeah, I botched it overall, but I maintain I had the right approach and failed in the execution. I "started throwing my vote around" because we needed a non-faust lynch. I stand proud that this is how correct town should behave (and it's not like I was certain or anything, I was partially lucky to be right about faust).

[Teproc]

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

[yuma]

ash and voltaire, are you both dead-set on voting for each other or are you considering other options?

[Voltaire]

ash and voltaire, are you both dead-set on voting for each other or are you considering other options?

I will definitely vote for other people if the ash wagon does not seem to be going anywhere. At this point, though, I believe I am doing the most good for town with my vote on ash.

[Voltaire]

I mean, he's currently tied for the most votes, and I hate the Ichi wagon.

[2.71828.....]

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

Basically scum!robz knows that Faust is town.  So scum!robz has no reason to disbelieve the claim at all.  However, it is within the realm of possibility that Faust would either misremember is PM or put out some sort of false information in his response which "catches" town!faust.  All the while Robz gets town points with a slim chance that Faust will misstep and give an easy lynch.  As it is, the whole claim was a misstep by Faust, but that is a different matter.  So I wouldn't say it is a "towny" thing to do, but it does not mean it is scummy either.  My scum read on Robz is not one big moment where I went "Aha! Robz is scum" but more of a gradual uneasiness as I reread all his posts.

[Robz888]

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

Basically scum!robz knows that Faust is town.  So scum!robz has no reason to disbelieve the claim at all.  However, it is within the realm of possibility that Faust would either misremember is PM or put out some sort of false information in his response which "catches" town!faust.  All the while Robz gets town points with a slim chance that Faust will misstep and give an easy lynch.  As it is, the whole claim was a misstep by Faust, but that is a different matter.  So I wouldn't say it is a "towny" thing to do, but it does not mean it is scummy either.  My scum read on Robz is not one big moment where I went "Aha! Robz is scum" but more of a gradual uneasiness as I reread all his posts.

Seeing my actions in the above light, as an effort to entrap town faust, is ludicrous. If we were lynching based on the most strained case ever, I would vote for you.

[ashersky]

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

Basically scum!robz knows that Faust is town.  So scum!robz has no reason to disbelieve the claim at all.

I said this about scum!Voltaire.

[ashersky]

ash and voltaire, are you both dead-set on voting for each other or are you considering other options?

If town is dead set on mislynching today, I'll vote for myself.

Otherwise, I think lynching Voltaire is the best move for today.  I would consider Robz, Ichi, or Lekkit if needed.

[Robz888]

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

Basically scum!robz knows that Faust is town.  So scum!robz has no reason to disbelieve the claim at all.

I said this about scum!Voltaire.

Makes no sense for him either . Or rather, it's just a tautology and you could say his about anyone else as well.

[ashersky]

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

Basically scum!robz knows that Faust is town.  So scum!robz has no reason to disbelieve the claim at all.

I said this about scum!Voltaire.

Makes no sense for him either . Or rather, it's just a tautology and you could say his about anyone else as well.

That's unfair, I think.

It is categorically true that scum knows (or thinks it knows) who is scum and who isn't, and so is more likely to believe a town claim than not.

Whether they show that in thread or not is debatable.  They may disbelieve a town claim to try to lynch them, for example.  But it is fair to state that "I think Voltaire is scum, so his reaction to Faust's claim matches up with that."

[Robz888]

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

Basically scum!robz knows that Faust is town.  So scum!robz has no reason to disbelieve the claim at all.

I said this about scum!Voltaire.

Makes no sense for him either . Or rather, it's just a tautology and you could say his about anyone else as well.

That's unfair, I think.

It is categorically true that scum knows (or thinks it knows) who is scum and who isn't, and so is more likely to believe a town claim than not.

Whether they show that in thread or not is debatable.  They may disbelieve a town claim to try to lynch them, for example.  But it is fair to state that "I think Voltaire is scum, so his reaction to Faust's claim matches up with that."

But it's B before A with you and 2.7 here. "I think Robz/Volt is scum, and their reaction to the faust claim fits this no matter what that reaction was."

[ashersky]

But it's B before A with you and 2.7 here. "I think Robz/Volt is scum, and their reaction to the faust claim fits this no matter what that reaction was."

That's true.  So?

I've always gotten a read/feel on someone, then checked their posts to see if it's right or wrong.

[ashersky]

But it's B before A with you and 2.7 here. "I think Robz/Volt is scum, and their reaction to the faust claim fits this no matter what that reaction was."

That's true.  So?

I've always gotten a read/feel on someone, then checked their posts to see if it's right or wrong.

I mean, why else do we re-read people?  Things can be scummy after the fact.  Like, after someone flips, then you see that previous behavior was scummy.  Like here.

[Voltaire]

Otherwise, I think lynching Voltaire is the best move for today.  I would consider Robz, Ichi, or Lekkit if needed.

And see, I hate all of these lynches and think some of them are the "easy" mislynches, so I feel even better about this.

[yuma]

for reference: day1 post count

(quotation is how many from day1, approximately)

1. Voltaire - 183 (160) = 23
2. Robz888 - 140 (115) = 25
3. mail-mi - 60 (51) = 9
4. Chairs - 40 (35) = 5
5. Ashersky - 148 (109) = 39
6. Yuma - 113 (78) = 35
7. Ichimaru Gin 67 (47) = 20
8. Lekkit - 41 (32) = 9
9. Liopoil - 85 (59) = 26
10. Teproc - 118 (107) = 11
11. 2.7 - 169 (149) = 20

Notable is mail-mi, chairs and lekkit all of whom I would kinda expect to be on the lower ends of things, the surprise I think is Teproc who after being quite high Day1 has dropped off dramatically.

[mail-mi]

for reference: day1 post count

(quotation is how many from day1, approximately)

1. Voltaire - 183 (160) = 23
2. Robz888 - 140 (115) = 25
3. mail-mi - 60 (51) = 9
4. Chairs - 40 (35) = 5
5. Ashersky - 148 (109) = 39
6. Yuma - 113 (78) = 35
7. Ichimaru Gin 67 (47) = 20
8. Lekkit - 41 (32) = 9
9. Liopoil - 85 (59) = 26
10. Teproc - 118 (107) = 11
11. 2.7 - 169 (149) = 20

Notable is mail-mi, chairs and lekkit all of whom I would kinda expect to be on the lower ends of things, the surprise I think is Teproc who after being quite high Day1 has dropped off dramatically.

which is a point against him if it comes to it.

[mail-mi]

Now volt and ash are tunneling heavily against each other but we cannot rule them out as scum partners, as town did in GOT to me and eevee. Even if one of us had gotten lynched, we still probably would have won.

[yuma]

which is a point against him if it comes to it.

hey look a mail-mi! I would agree with you here...

I was also hoping to hear from chairs tonight. He had hoped that he would have some free time to post.

PS reminder: I am about to start up my on week at work, so no morning, afternoon or late night posting from me.

And I think I am going to unvote. And actually vote for the person who the player I was just voting for is voting for vote: teproc.

Ichimaru's case has some points that are ok and some that aren't, but what struck me was how Teproc responded:

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

It isn't the same as mail-mi's classic "this is a good case on me" when he was scum in whatever game that was, but it is a cousin of sorts as Teproc basically says that Ichimaru has some valid points. Add to it a subtle hint of buddying by unvoting and ultimately getting a read of town from it...

[chairs]

which is a point against him if it comes to it.

hey look a mail-mi! I would agree with you here...

I was also hoping to hear from chairs tonight. He had hoped that he would have some free time to post.

PS reminder: I am about to start up my on week at work, so no morning, afternoon or late night posting from me.

And I think I am going to unvote. And actually vote for the person who the player I was just voting for is voting for vote: teproc.

Ichimaru's case has some points that are ok and some that aren't, but what struck me was how Teproc responded:

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

2.7, you have Robz's "nobody say anything about the setup !" moment listed in the scummy things he's done. I actually think it's a pretty townie thing to do, so I'm interested in your reasoning here.

It isn't the same as mail-mi's classic "this is a good case on me" when he was scum in whatever game that was, but it is a cousin of sorts as Teproc basically says that Ichimaru has some valid points. Add to it a subtle hint of buddying by unvoting and ultimately getting a read of town from it...

That makes sense to me.  vote: teproc.

[mail-mi]

hey look a mail-mi!

BANANANANANANANANANANANANANANA

A wild mail-mi and Teproc appear!

Yuma uses Good Case on Teproc

Mail-mi uses Sheep on Yuma and uses Good Case on Teproc.





Pokemon references aside, I think those are some really good points against teproc and since it looks like e really isn't happening I will vote: teproc

[liopoil]

See yuma, I'm not a lurker D2, I have the third most posts, V/LA and all (which ends today, but realistically won't really end until the start of tomorrow.) also, you said that the person you just unvoted (me) is voting for who you just voted (teproc) which isn't true.

[Teproc]

Um, okay ? I thought Ichimaru's post made sense, and it read towny to me, so I unvoted. That's pretty much it.

As for my post count, yeah, I've been unactive today because of vacation and stuff, and that's bad.

[Robz888]

See yuma, I'm not a lurker D2, I have the third most posts, V/LA and all (which ends today, but realistically won't really end until the start of tomorrow.) also, you said that the person you just unvoted (me) is voting for who you just voted (teproc) which isn't true.

I think he means Ichimaru, who he was indeed voting for prior to this.

As for Teproc... that's not really a lynch I would be at all excited for.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 2.5

ashersky (3): Robz, Voltaire, Liopoil
Robz888 (1): 2.7...
Ichimaru Gin (1): Lekkit
Voltaire (1): ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, Yuma, chairs, mail-mi

Not Voting (1): teproc

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm. To account for holidays

[yuma]

See yuma, I'm not a lurker D2, I have the third most posts, V/LA and all (which ends today, but realistically won't really end until the start of tomorrow.) also, you said that the person you just unvoted (me) is voting for who you just voted (teproc) which isn't true.

I think he means Ichimaru, who he was indeed voting for prior to this.

As for Teproc... that's not really a lynch I would be at all excited for.

Oh right... you only want to lynch ashersky?

Would a vote: robz be better per chance?

[yuma]

and why don't you want to vote for teproc?

the last thing you said about him was:

That leaves... Teproc (didn't like him defending ash, don't remember much else), Lekkit (can't remember a thing about him), and Voltaire (is playing me very well if he's scum, which is probably possible and I should try to think about, but I can't help see him as town for now).

Has something changed?

[ashersky]

Otherwise, I think lynching Voltaire is the best move for today.  I would consider Robz, Ichi, or Lekkit if needed.

And see, I hate all of these lynches and think some of them are the "easy" mislynches, so I feel even better about this.

I think the fact that none of my scum reads seem to be able to be lynched and that Voltaire hates them all makes me feel even better about this.

[yuma]

I've been pretty busy with work, not sleeping and doing other stuff (mostly Hearthstone) during what little spare time I've had. I have read everything, though, but not really processed it. I'm doing a gaming marathon today/tomorrow and won't be spending much time here, but I hope I can get going on monday.

Can we get a prod on lekkit again.

[ashersky]

Deadline is in like a day.  We need a lynch.

Would the Robz wagon gain steam?  Is no one willing to join me on Voltaire?

[Voltaire]

For once, I actually have a town read on Robz. So no.

[ashersky]

For once, I actually have a town read on Robz. So no.

This is because Robz is your scum partner.

[liopoil]

I'm fine with a robz lynch, probably my second choice.

[mail-mi]

Eh, he's null for me. If it is obvious that it will be him, then sure I'll vote.

My preference:
e
teproc
Robz
volt
ichi
ash

[Ichimaru Gin]

Eh, he's null for me. If it is obvious that it will be him, then sure I'll vote.

My preference:
e
teproc
Robz
volt
ichi
ash

Is that in order of most wanting to lynch first?

[mail-mi]

Eh, he's null for me. If it is obvious that it will be him, then sure I'll vote.

My preference:
e
teproc
Robz
volt
ichi
ash

Is that in order of most wanting to lynch first?

yes

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. So what, 2 days til the deadline?

I'm happy with my vote on Teproc for right now, although I found his response interesting.

I am willing to vote Ash if we haven't really come to a conclusion and we're really close to the deadline.
The other ones: Voltaire, Robz, chairs? not liking as much.
I am also willing to vote Lekkit, cause if we're going to lynch a lurker, I think it should be him.

[yuma]

Ok. So what, 2 days til the deadline?

I'm happy with my vote on Teproc for right now, although I found his response interesting.

I am willing to vote Ash if we haven't really come to a conclusion and we're really close to the deadline.
The other ones: Voltaire, Robz, chairs? not liking as much.
I am also willing to vote Lekkit, cause if we're going to lynch a lurker, I think it should be him.

How do you mean interesting? Like interesting as in a townie way or interesting in a scummy way? Interesting is a very ambiguous word in this game.

Yes, Lekkit. I could lynch Lekkit. Obviously I would like him to post hence for the request for the prod.

In fact vote: lekkit He has had 2 posts this week and both were him saying he wasn't going to be around much. Man, this is unacceptable!

Add in that I found this post scummy back in the day (I had forgotten he had posted it until I went back to see the last time Lekkit had a post with content):

Ichimaru Gin. very scummy in all. Opportunistic voting, only following other people's cases and not contributing much. Could possibly be due to him being new.

chairs. The fact that he didn't die tonight means basically nothing. But the fact that he hasn't really done anything at all makes him pretty suspicious in my opinion.

ashersky. Does crazy stuff. I tend to lean scummy on him by default. No exception here, but aside from that, I can't really make sense of ash's play at all. Playing against your wincon (selfvoting) is never good, though.

Voltaire. I was pretty suspicious of him earlier, especially since he disappeared at the end of the day and then reappeared closer to the deadline. I've cooled down somewhat here. Especially since a lot of other players seems to think he's towny. And that many players having an expressed town read on someone might mean that I'm wrong.

This whole post just rings false to me... It is like the island of easy mislynches (assuming of course that these three are mislynches, which I guess is something of a stretch) except for Voltaire where Lekkit is moving a a scumread to a townread based solely off fitting in with the general perception seems scummy to me.

This was his last real post of the game. It was posted on December 23rd. I said it was scummy and he hans't responded to it or anything else for the rest of the day. Keep in mind that Lekkit is very capable of lurking as scum. He was lynched for it in Buffy and lurked to an extent in Major Arcana 2 as well.

I'll go back to Teproc or maybe Robz--it looks like there isn't any support for a lio lynch for some reason???--and am certainly willing to consider other options. I think chairs and ash are probably the two I wouldn't lynch at this juncture.

[yuma]

See yuma, I'm not a lurker D2, I have the third most posts, V/LA and all (which ends today, but realistically won't really end until the start of tomorrow.) also, you said that the person you just unvoted (me) is voting for who you just voted (teproc) which isn't true.

As robz said I unvoted Ichimaru not you. This and the fact that you are misrepresenting what I am saying about your lurking shows that you aren't reading very closely...

Let me again (I think this is the third or fourth time I have said this... in fact I'll pull up a quote)

I think you have been lurky day2--VLA aside--not in terms of post count but rather that you really only had a back and forth with ash that really didn't require you to post anything other than bickering back and forth. You aren't the only player that has lurker or lacked content day2, but this isn't the sole reason I was voting you.

Quantity isn't important. Content is. I challenge you to show me where you have posted content aside from your argument with ashersky day2 (if you can call that content) and your defense of yourself

Mods: it is a bit late for it, but it helps a lot if you change the subject line to reflect the current gameday, this allows us to easily see what game state day a post was posted. If this could be done for future days I would really appreciate it! Thanks!

[liopoil]

See yuma, I'm not a lurker D2, I have the third most posts, V/LA and all (which ends today, but realistically won't really end until the start of tomorrow.) also, you said that the person you just unvoted (me) is voting for who you just voted (teproc) which isn't true.

As robz said I unvoted Ichimaru not you. This and the fact that you are misrepresenting what I am saying about your lurking shows that you aren't reading very closely...

Let me again (I think this is the third or fourth time I have said this... in fact I'll pull up a quote)

I think you have been lurky day2--VLA aside--not in terms of post count but rather that you really only had a back and forth with ash that really didn't require you to post anything other than bickering back and forth. You aren't the only player that has lurker or lacked content day2, but this isn't the sole reason I was voting you.

Quantity isn't important. Content is. I challenge you to show me where you have posted content aside from your argument with ashersky day2 (if you can call that content) and your defense of yourself

in that case, what is the point of your post counts?

sorry, I missed the vote on ichimaru, and I do remember the second thing now. Yep, I haven't been reading terribly closely. Full catch-up tomorrow

[yuma]

in that case, what is the point of your post counts?

They are an easy way to get an overview of what is going on in the game. I don't and never have recommended going solely off them, but to rather use them as a jumping off point to see what is going on with a specific player... look at lekkit or teproc for example. Seeing their low end post counts, I can then go back and actually look at their posts specifically and individually and go from there.

I like it because it is a trigger for me to see something that I might not otherwise see in a casual reread.

[Lekkit]

I have been busy. And more business coming up. I'll most likely be online somewhere between 10 hours from now until 18 hours from now. I'm not sure when that is in your time zones.

I know I have been very lurky. There's nothing more for me to say about that. I'm heading to bed now, since it's 5 am.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. So what, 2 days til the deadline?

I'm happy with my vote on Teproc for right now, although I found his response interesting.

I am willing to vote Ash if we haven't really come to a conclusion and we're really close to the deadline.
The other ones: Voltaire, Robz, chairs? not liking as much.
I am also willing to vote Lekkit, cause if we're going to lynch a lurker, I think it should be him.

How do you mean interesting? Like interesting as in a townie way or interesting in a scummy way? Interesting is a very ambiguous word in this game.

Interesting in the sense that I am somewhat unsure what to make of it--and his response was also unexpected. Originally, I read it as townie, but now I don't think so. I can see that scum might try the "buddying" approach as I believe you said. This being a social game and all, there are certain psychological influences that can make you want to reciprocate the actions of other players towards you. But it seems like that just makes you easy for scum to manipulate then.

[Lekkit]

In fact vote: lekkit He has had 2 posts this week and both were him saying he wasn't going to be around much. Man, this is unacceptable!

I'm not sure if you've had to work over the holidays with cleaning up the mess that others make. But I can tell you it sucks. This paragraph is very much an IRL thing: I have been very busy at work and not really had the motivation to get into this game when I've had some free time. I even considered dropping out of the game, but figured it would get better after the holidays. I know that I was selfish in taking up a spot being inactive in the hopes of getting back into the game later. But I don't think that makes it unacceptable. With that out of the way I'll be moving on to ingame stuff now.

Add in that I found this post scummy back in the day (I had forgotten he had posted it until I went back to see the last time Lekkit had a post with content):

Ichimaru Gin. very scummy in all. Opportunistic voting, only following other people's cases and not contributing much. Could possibly be due to him being new.

chairs. The fact that he didn't die tonight means basically nothing. But the fact that he hasn't really done anything at all makes him pretty suspicious in my opinion.

ashersky. Does crazy stuff. I tend to lean scummy on him by default. No exception here, but aside from that, I can't really make sense of ash's play at all. Playing against your wincon (selfvoting) is never good, though.

Voltaire. I was pretty suspicious of him earlier, especially since he disappeared at the end of the day and then reappeared closer to the deadline. I've cooled down somewhat here. Especially since a lot of other players seems to think he's towny. And that many players having an expressed town read on someone might mean that I'm wrong.

This whole post just rings false to me... It is like the island of easy mislynches (assuming of course that these three are mislynches, which I guess is something of a stretch) except for Voltaire where Lekkit is moving a a scumread to a townread based solely off fitting in with the general perception seems scummy to me.

This was his last real post of the game. It was posted on December 23rd. I said it was scummy and he hans't responded to it or anything else for the rest of the day. Keep in mind that Lekkit is very capable of lurking as scum. He was lynched for it in Buffy and lurked to an extent in Major Arcana 2 as well.

[/quote]

This is not the first time in this game where people tell me that I haven't responded to stuff they've said. Seriously, what do you want me to say? "Nope, I don't think this is scummy. I think you're wrong."? Allright, I'll give it a try:

They might be mislynches, but I still think they are the scummiest around. And the fact that they might be mislynches is not going to stop me from finding them scummy or make me want to not vote for them. It's not how the game works. "You are scummy, but I can't be 100% sure that you're not town, so I'll not lynch you.". Also, I don't agree with you that it is scummy to find the scummiest players scummy. Also, why should we not listen to the other players abou their opinions on the other players? I'm not that confident that I'm the only one that can read people here and that I'm the best at it. I don't think changing one's opinion about a player due to other players' thoughs is very scummy.

I was also lynched for lurking in one of Grujahs Pirate games (I think it was number 2), where I was town. I don't really think that "Lekkit lurks as scum" is a good argument. On the other hand, I don't think that "Lekkit always lurk" is a good defence either. But it is kind of true. I'm not as active as most members here.

I'll go back to Teproc or maybe Robz--it looks like there isn't any support for a lio lynch for some reason???--and am certainly willing to consider other options. I think chairs and ash are probably the two I wouldn't lynch at this juncture.

Why not chairs? You're currently voting me for not being here. Why not chairs?

[Robz888]

So, it looks like ash lynch is a no go? I don't really like the Teproc lynch though. I don't really understand what it's based on, and if it's wrong, I don't know how it helps us POE anyone else.

Better lynches I would get behind... probably liopoil, possibly chairs.

[ashersky]

26 hours to deadline, yes?

[ashersky]

Vote Count ash2.5

ashersky (3): Robz, Voltaire, Liopoil
Robz888 (1): 2.7...
Ichimaru Gin (1): Lekkit
Voltaire (1): ashersky
Teproc (3): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi
Lekkit (1): yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm. To account for holidays

Updated vote count above.

Top wagons are ashersky and Teproc.  It'd be helpful to hear what the Teproc case is.  I'm still unsure.  Hilariously, all my scum reads are on the two wagons.

We need some action here.

[yuma]

This is not the first time in this game where people tell me that I haven't responded to stuff they've said. Seriously, what do you want me to say? "Nope, I don't think this is scummy. I think you're wrong."? Allright, I'll give it a try:

They might be mislynches, but I still think they are the scummiest around. And the fact that they might be mislynches is not going to stop me from finding them scummy or make me want to not vote for them. It's not how the game works. "You are scummy, but I can't be 100% sure that you're not town, so I'll not lynch you.". Also, I don't agree with you that it is scummy to find the scummiest players scummy. Also, why should we not listen to the other players abou their opinions on the other players? I'm not that confident that I'm the only one that can read people here and that I'm the best at it. I don't think changing one's opinion about a player due to other players' thoughs is very scummy.

I was also lynched for lurking in one of Grujahs Pirate games (I think it was number 2), where I was town. I don't really think that "Lekkit lurks as scum" is a good argument. On the other hand, I don't think that "Lekkit always lurk" is a good defence either. But it is kind of true. I'm not as active as most members here.

I'll go back to Teproc or maybe Robz--it looks like there isn't any support for a lio lynch for some reason???--and am certainly willing to consider other options. I think chairs and ash are probably the two I wouldn't lynch at this juncture.

Why not chairs? You're currently voting me for not being here. Why not chairs?

I am sorry you have been so stressed out and busy that doesn't sound fun.

I was hoping now that you are here to hear your thoughts on other players as well as a response to my points on you (thanks for responding at least), like have your opinions changed at all since the dec 23rd post?

The fact that you find players scummy isn't the issue it is who and why. Your reasons for them being scummy were pretty run of the mill and easy. That makes me raise my eyebrows a bit. And yes,, losing a scumread isn't in and of itself scummy, but rather again why. You lose it because of what other people think--scum want to assimilate and blend in, hence me finding it scummy of you. It isn't like you say volt is townie because his behavior is townie but rather that "a lot of other players seems to think he's towny"

as for chairs, I agree I would like more from him, but we probably aren't going to get it... so yeah, if it were just that he could be considered for a lynch, but there is the whole day1 claim thing with him, so all things aren't equal if you compare you and him (add in that he has received very little support for a lynch despite one player clamoring for (2.7?) it) so if we are going to lynch a lurker you are a better candidate. that and I have a scum read on you opposed to more of a null read on chairs.

[ashersky]

yuma, any plans to move your vote?  Or is a Lekkit lynch still viable.

He's in my second set of possible scum, so I could vote for him if it's going to work out.

I'm still at Volt > Robz >>> Lekkit = Ichimaru

[yuma]

yuma, any plans to move your vote?  Or is a Lekkit lynch still viable.

He's in my second set of possible scum, so I could vote for him if it's going to work out.

I'm still at Volt > Robz >>> Lekkit = Ichimaru

We don't know if a Lekkit lynch is viable or not unfortunately as only half the town has posted since I initially voted for him....

I also want to get his updated reads and thoughts about basically the entire day...

[yuma]

I should note that again I won't be online for the deadline (I will be slaving along at work... i.e. killing time cause it is dead cause nobody goes to the doctor's during the holidays if they can help it), but will get online before I head out in the morning and place my vote where I think the best lynch is most likely to happen

[liopoil]

I don't really like either the ichimaru or lekkit lynches. lekkit feels like the archetype mislynch in toy story - heavy lurking but doesn't indicate alignment. In regard to ichimaru, we've had many new players over the games who have emphasized their newbieness and also have done some of the classic scummy things people are talking about. again, I'm not seeing how it indicates alignment.

Would much rather lynch ash or robz. teproc, eh, maybe, I need to look at whatever the case on him is closer.

oh, I don't buy ash's case on volt at all either, as I think I mentioned. I had some reasons for thinking he was town on D1 too.

that leaves:

yuma, e, chairs, and mail-mi as the remaining people. Not particularly against lynching any of these three. Chairs I think is my third choice behind robz actually, yuma, e and mail-mi are pretty null. so in order from most to least in each category:

want to lynch: ashersky, robz, chairs
not opposed to lynching: yuma, e, mail-mi
opposed to lynching: liopoil, voltaire, ichimaru, lekkit

Teproc is not listed because I'm going to go look for the reasons behind the votes on him now.

[liopoil]

So in short I think Teproc is scummy because

1. He flipped back and forth about Ash D1, a lot. And generally had a lot of light reads on people which he shifted around, often contradicting each other. I know that there's not a lot of information D1, but such unaccountable behavior reads scum to me. And as I have already mentioned, he avoided suspicion for this.

 2. I read boldness and certainty (even over-certainty) as town. Teproc's general lack of conviction on most of his votes reads scum to me. Although Ash is getting flak for his early "100%" read on Faust, I think extreme statements elicit extreme responses--thereby making it harder for scum to hide in ambiguity--something I believe Teproc to be doing.

3. Everything is WIFOM? Well it's pretty obvious that a lot of his cases do follow this. e.g. this behavior could be interpreted as town or scum trying to get town cred, but for really no reason at all, I believe the latter.
Still, I think this statement is just an excuse/cover-up for poor scumhunting on Teproc's part. WIFOM is basically an argument out of thin air--given the semblance of conviction through bias.

seems to me like all of these boil down to him not having solid reads D1, and him changing his mind. Slight oversimplification, but not by much. I have no problem with teproc not being terribly confident that people are scum, and changing your mind is a good thing... we don't want to discourage that.

[liopoil]

vote: teproc.

Ichimaru's case has some points that are ok and some that aren't, but what struck me was how Teproc responded:

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

It isn't the same as mail-mi's classic "this is a good case on me" when he was scum in whatever game that was, but it is a cousin of sorts as Teproc basically says that Ichimaru has some valid points. Add to it a subtle hint of buddying by unvoting and ultimately getting a read of town from it...

what do you expect him to do, say he wasn't changing his mind?

but apart from that, this is interesting. The 'that post was very convincing' and him not suspecting ichimaru as much as he did before is suspicious.

[yuma]

I don't really like either the ichimaru or lekkit lynches. lekkit feels like the archetype mislynch in toy story - heavy lurking but doesn't indicate alignment. In regard to ichimaru, we've had many new players over the games who have emphasized their newbieness and also have done some of the classic scummy things people are talking about. again, I'm not seeing how it indicates alignment.

This is true to a point. But I feel like in both situations the frustrating for me has been the unwillingness of people to even explore the lynch as a possibility... like today (and yesterday) to an extent as well has seen an extreme absence of wagon building... today's biggest wagon was what? three people?

I am not suggesting that we need to get a bunch of players to L-1, but rather that part of building to a lynch is gauging reactions to that sort of pressure (and I am not talking about just voting for pressure, but voting because of something scummy and then seeing where the wagon leads), but that hasn't happened today, people have been so hesitant to vote, but rather have been very quick to dismiss potential wagons from the get-go. Why? Obviously this can't all be mafia because nearly everyone is doing it to an extent. Instead people have voted and then sat on that vote all by their lonesomes all day long...

Is this something that mafia would be more prone to do? Again I am sure there are town examples of this because multiple players are doing it, but is this an area where mafia is more likely to be? I kinda feel like I am grasping at straws and that this is just a day1 all over again...

[yuma]

vote: teproc.

Ichimaru's case has some points that are ok and some that aren't, but what struck me was how Teproc responded:

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

It isn't the same as mail-mi's classic "this is a good case on me" when he was scum in whatever game that was, but it is a cousin of sorts as Teproc basically says that Ichimaru has some valid points. Add to it a subtle hint of buddying by unvoting and ultimately getting a read of town from it...

what do you expect him to do, say he wasn't changing his mind?

but apart from that, this is interesting. The 'that post was very convincing' and him not suspecting ichimaru as much as he did before is suspicious.

No... I expect town to be more like robz was a while ago saying "this is true, but why does it make me scum" sort of reaction. Teproc's here is kinda saying "this is true... WIFOM"

The line between the two is close I suppose but the later is much more of a reaction from scum, whereas I think the former more of a townie reaction.

We need to get something going... I am going back to vote: teproc

[liopoil]

I don't really like either the ichimaru or lekkit lynches. lekkit feels like the archetype mislynch in toy story - heavy lurking but doesn't indicate alignment. In regard to ichimaru, we've had many new players over the games who have emphasized their newbieness and also have done some of the classic scummy things people are talking about. again, I'm not seeing how it indicates alignment.

This is true to a point. But I feel like in both situations the frustrating for me has been the unwillingness of people to even explore the lynch as a possibility... like today (and yesterday) to an extent as well has seen an extreme absence of wagon building... today's biggest wagon was what? three people?

I am not suggesting that we need to get a bunch of players to L-1, but rather that part of building to a lynch is gauging reactions to that sort of pressure (and I am not talking about just voting for pressure, but voting because of something scummy and then seeing where the wagon leads), but that hasn't happened today, people have been so hesitant to vote, but rather have been very quick to dismiss potential wagons from the get-go. Why? Obviously this can't all be mafia because nearly everyone is doing it to an extent. Instead people have voted and then sat on that vote all by their lonesomes all day long...

Is this something that mafia would be more prone to do? Again I am sure there are town examples of this because multiple players are doing it, but is this an area where mafia is more likely to be? I kinda feel like I am grasping at straws and that this is just a day1 all over again...

I don't see what this has to do with my post... yes I sort of dismissed both of those lynches, but I'm not going to vote for people I don't suspect...

So I think that's all I could find about teproc, and so it's not much. However, yuma's point about that one post is enough for him to be a better lynch than most other people, so he goes sort of in between 'want to lynch' and 'not opposed to lynching'.

Pretty much I want to lynch from the pool of ash, robz, chairs, and teproc. The farther to the left, the more I prefer to lynch them.

Now, yuma has a decent point about getting more wagons going, so I'll Vote: Robz888 to see if there's more support for it that ashersky.

[2.71828.....]

I am too tired (travel+long night last night+travel back home) to really go back through and get more reactions from what has transpired since I was on last, but I will be available a majority of tomorrow, but not right at the deadline.  I should be on up until around 4:00-4:30 or a little longer if a bunch of stuff is happening.  I have company coming over for dinner and will need to be getting ready for them.  I will get on first thing in the morning to get my reads.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm going to be working tomorrow in the morning. But I should be around at least a couple hours before the deadline--and up until the deadline, to see where the various wagons are and change my vote if needed.
I'm willing to vote: Ash, Teproc, Lekkit--possibly chairs, but I don't think that's happening.

[ashersky]

vote: Robz

That's 3 on Robz and 4 on Teproc.  2 on ashersky.

[Robz888]

I don't really like either the ichimaru or lekkit lynches. lekkit feels like the archetype mislynch in toy story - heavy lurking but doesn't indicate alignment. In regard to ichimaru, we've had many new players over the games who have emphasized their newbieness and also have done some of the classic scummy things people are talking about. again, I'm not seeing how it indicates alignment.

This is true to a point. But I feel like in both situations the frustrating for me has been the unwillingness of people to even explore the lynch as a possibility... like today (and yesterday) to an extent as well has seen an extreme absence of wagon building... today's biggest wagon was what? three people?

I am not suggesting that we need to get a bunch of players to L-1, but rather that part of building to a lynch is gauging reactions to that sort of pressure (and I am not talking about just voting for pressure, but voting because of something scummy and then seeing where the wagon leads), but that hasn't happened today, people have been so hesitant to vote, but rather have been very quick to dismiss potential wagons from the get-go. Why? Obviously this can't all be mafia because nearly everyone is doing it to an extent. Instead people have voted and then sat on that vote all by their lonesomes all day long...

Is this something that mafia would be more prone to do? Again I am sure there are town examples of this because multiple players are doing it, but is this an area where mafia is more likely to be? I kinda feel like I am grasping at straws and that this is just a day1 all over again...

I don't see what this has to do with my post... yes I sort of dismissed both of those lynches, but I'm not going to vote for people I don't suspect...

So I think that's all I could find about teproc, and so it's not much. However, yuma's point about that one post is enough for him to be a better lynch than most other people, so he goes sort of in between 'want to lynch' and 'not opposed to lynching'.

Pretty much I want to lynch from the pool of ash, robz, chairs, and teproc. The farther to the left, the more I prefer to lynch them.

Now, yuma has a decent point about getting more wagons going, so I'll Vote: Robz888 to see if there's more support for it that ashersky.

I see that you've said a couple times that you like my lynch. Have you ever said why? I know why ash wants to lynch me; he wants to lynch everyone who calls him out.

[ashersky]

I see that you've said a couple times that you like my lynch. Have you ever said why? I know why ash wants to lynch me; he wants to lynch everyone who calls him out.

What, exactly, have you called me out for?  I've done nothing to be called out for.  Basically all I've done this game is have a wrong read on Faust.  If that makes me scum, then everyone to ever play forum mafia ever is scum, because no one has ever been right 100% of the time.

This is classic lazyscumrobz pushing the easy mislynch.  You do it all the time, especially when you've got a stagnant game where it's easily brushed off the next day as a necessity lynch.

[Robz888]

I see that you've said a couple times that you like my lynch. Have you ever said why? I know why ash wants to lynch me; he wants to lynch everyone who calls him out.

What, exactly, have you called me out for?  I've done nothing to be called out for.  Basically all I've done this game is have a wrong read on Faust.  If that makes me scum, then everyone to ever play forum mafia ever is scum, because no one has ever been right 100% of the time.

This is classic lazyscumrobz pushing the easy mislynch.  You do it all the time, especially when you've got a stagnant game where it's easily brushed off the next day as a necessity lynch.

No, I'm just not letting you get away with this again. You've fooled me before with your whole routine--where you essentially act too scummy to be scum, and badly formed, weirdly strong reads are part of it--and I'm just not falling for it this time. And you are coming after the two people calling you out for it, me and Voltaire, because that's part of your whole attempt, too.

This all started not because you had a wrong read on faust, but because you had an indefensible read. It didn't make you seem scummy until it 1) turned out wrong, and 2) you couldn't explain what caused it without defaulting to the reason everyone else had given for lynching faust, AFTER your 100% read.

That's my case on you. No, you're not the easy mislynch. How could you be--your lynch isn't easy, like no one is in favor of it and it doesn't even look like it's going through.

I know town ashersky does some legit crazy stuff, but I know that scum ashersky knows that too, and you've been caught faking before, and this is exactly that.

[Robz888]

I totally got you, and you know it, and your partners know it too, which is why this isn't going anywhere.

[ashersky]

I totally got you, and you know it, and your partners know it too, which is why this isn't going anywhere.

This is going in my signature line, after this game is over.

[Teproc]

I don't think I relied on WIFOM at all in my response to Ichimaru. I said his post made good points about how my behaviour kn o could be seen as scummy, even though I know his case to be wrong. I'm not buddying him by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just observing this because I believe it makes him more likely to be town.

I'll be around tonight and should be able to finish rereading afew hours before deadline.

[Lekkit]

My reads haven't changed that much since the 23rd. I'm more willing to lynch ashersky now than before, but that's about it. I get the feeling that he doesn't really want to find scum, but he seems kind of willing to stay in the game.

One thing I'm concerned about is the Teproc thing. I haven't really understood the case on him. I'll look into that today.

[Robz888]

My reads haven't changed that much since the 23rd. I'm more willing to lynch ashersky now than before, but that's about it. I get the feeling that he doesn't really want to find scum, but he seems kind of willing to stay in the game.

One thing I'm concerned about is the Teproc thing. I haven't really understood the case on him. I'll look into that today.

We're running out of time, so if you are getting more willing to lynch ash I would encourage you to actually vote for him.

[Lekkit]

Rereading the day quickly has made me realize that I don't really support the Teproc lynch. Also I'm not entirely sold on the Robz lynch. I really prefer ash over Robz or Teproc. Vote: ashersky

[yuma]

Sorry guys I had planned on having a bit more time, but woke up late and need to run to catch the bus. I see from the whole ~ 7 posts since last night nothing has really changed, teproc is still the best lynch most likely to go through so I am leaving my vote there.

[ashersky]

Sorry guys I had planned on having a bit more time, but woke up late and need to run to catch the bus. I see from the whole ~ 7 posts since last night nothing has really changed, teproc is still the best lynch most likely to go through so I am leaving my vote there.

Vote Robz, man.  Always a safe bet.

[liopoil]

Now, yuma has a decent point about getting more wagons going, so I'll Vote: Robz888 to see if there's more support for it that ashersky.

I see that you've said a couple times that you like my lynch. Have you ever said why? I know why ash wants to lynch me; he wants to lynch everyone who calls him out.

Well, there's this, which was my initial reason for suspecting you:

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

I find both of these suspicious. Both are disclaimed at the end saying that it might be town!ash or town!lio. ash first:

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

I really find it weird that robz isn't totally sold on the reason for suspecting me like he was before. Reads to me like it was an attempt to get me mislynched yesterday, but today there's more viable mislynches like ashersky. I remember he sort of did that in the B2B game that got reset, so when robz was scum and I was still town.

So I'm thinking that most likely one of robz and ashersky is scum, but ashersky is still more likely.

and then e added this, some of which I agree with:
 

In fact, Robz? Here is some stuff on him- Opens up the liopoil case that "scum!lio struggles early but plays better late."  Gets a bunch of sheep.  He originally gives slight credence to my Faust case, but then is turned off the case by Ashersky.  He throws out his vote for sale here saying he is concerned about a bad D1.  Jumps to Lekkit for a lurker lynch temporarily before realizing Lekkit wasn't really lurking just posting less frequently but still with content, then moves to Eevee as his lurker lynch after I point out that Eevee is more of a lurker.  Throws his vote out for sale again.  Has the whole episode of "wait no one post info about the setup because it might help scum!faust with a fakeclaim." (starting here)  He then jumps onto the little wagon against me for a bit here before Faust reveals that he was lying about his fakeclaim.  Robz then ends the day with his vote on me, after unvoting Faust to avoid ending the day before some people could comment.  I recognize his "D1s are famously lacksadaisical" (to quote Ash from BM14 since he put it so nicely in the role PM) but putting his vote up for sale? twice?  His D2 has not been great but no one has really stood out too much as being amazing, and I think he can probably (safely) trust that his meta will carry him through and avoid a lynch.

So this has been long and winding and a bunch of people posted while I was typing this, but I think it lands me at vote: Robz.  I am not comfortable with the way he went through D1, and he has not done anything today to shake that feeling.

I see lekkit voted for ash, and with my vote, that would be 4 people... are there two more who would vote for ash? at this point I really prefer that over robz.

oh, and CHAIRS! how did that get forgotten. We should lynch chairs if we can't get ashersky. maybe over robz even.

teproc is behind all three of those above. I'll vote there to get a lynch, but I think we can get a better one.

[liopoil]

I guess vote: ashersky for now

it'd be nice if we could get vote counts fairly regularly as we approach the deadline in a bit over 8 hours.

[liopoil]

Vote Count 2.lio

ashersky (4): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil [L-2]
Robz888 (2): 2.7..., ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma [L-2]

Not Voting (1): teproc

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm. To account for holidays

[liopoil]

e, which lynch do you prefer, ashersky or teproc? Not that you necessarily need to choose one now (I think there is still time for a third wagon to emerge), but at the end that's what it could come down to, if ash and teproc vote for each other in an attempt to save themselves.

too soon to say anything now, but just by that vote count, it looks plausible that we've caught two scum.

[Voltaire]

I don't really like either the ichimaru or lekkit lynches. lekkit feels like the archetype mislynch in toy story - heavy lurking but doesn't indicate alignment. In regard to ichimaru, we've had many new players over the games who have emphasized their newbieness and also have done some of the classic scummy things people are talking about. again, I'm not seeing how it indicates alignment.

Would much rather lynch ash or robz. teproc, eh, maybe, I need to look at whatever the case on him is closer.

So I am currently ^this if it read "lynch ash, maybe teproc, not robz" but I agree with the opinions about ichi and lekki. Actually, I want to go back and look at the ichi voters. That's one hell of a scummy wagon.

[2.71828.....]

e, which lynch do you prefer, ashersky or teproc? Not that you necessarily need to choose one now (I think there is still time for a third wagon to emerge), but at the end that's what it could come down to, if ash and teproc vote for each other in an attempt to save themselves.

too soon to say anything now, but just by that vote count, it looks plausible that we've caught two scum.

Right now I lean on the side of lynching Ash (between those two).  Although, I agree with you from a few posts ago when you mention lynching chairs.  I do think that he could very well be scum.  In my last reads post I put Ash over chairs in my order of lynching, but after thinking some more I would prefer  Robz>=Chairs>>Ashersky.  Have to head in to work for a bit, but will be back at least by 1-2pm.  I will leave my vote where it is for now because I definitely don't want to put someone like Ash at L-1 yet. 

[Voltaire]

vote: Robz

That's 3 on Robz and 4 on Teproc.  2 on ashersky.

Subtle.

[liopoil]

Have to head in to work for a bit, but will be back at least by 1-2pm.  I will leave my vote where it is for now because I definitely don't want to put someone like Ash at L-1 yet. 

for once I have no problem putting people at L-1, because we are near the deadline and we need to deal with potential claims.

[Voltaire]

I will be around for the deadline starting at least half an hour beforehand, if not more.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 2.6

ashersky (4): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil
Robz888 (2): 2.7..., ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm. To account for holidays

[chairs]

I think I'd rather move to Robz over ash, but I still feel most comfortable with Teproc of the 3 wagons currently out.

I have my reasons to believe ash is probably town.

[Robz888]

I think I'd rather move to Robz over ash, but I still feel most comfortable with Teproc of the 3 wagons currently out.

I have my reasons to believe ash is probably town.

What are they?

[mail-mi]

Im here, and will be on and off before deadline. Anyway, yeah teproc is the best of those lynches  but I would be willing to switch to aash becase after sleeping on it, my opinion has changed slightly and he's a null read now.

[Robz888]

Now, yuma has a decent point about getting more wagons going, so I'll Vote: Robz888 to see if there's more support for it that ashersky.

I see that you've said a couple times that you like my lynch. Have you ever said why? I know why ash wants to lynch me; he wants to lynch everyone who calls him out.

Well, there's this, which was my initial reason for suspecting you:

Ashersky: Still my preference, I've said repeatedly that I think having a ridiculous read on faust was his scum strategy that backfired after faust committed game suicide on Day 1. The fact that practically no one else likes this case as much as I do makes me especially confident in it. But, you know, this is the sort of thing town ash COULD have done, unfortunately.

Liopoil: I know what the case is now. Basically, it's that he's pretty much a lurker until called out, and then he actually does work sort of hard to not be a lurkers (harder than, say, Eevee in this game for example). I guess that's fairly scummy. Like ash, it could just be the case that this is how lio just is.

I find both of these suspicious. Both are disclaimed at the end saying that it might be town!ash or town!lio. ash first:

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

I really find it weird that robz isn't totally sold on the reason for suspecting me like he was before. Reads to me like it was an attempt to get me mislynched yesterday, but today there's more viable mislynches like ashersky. I remember he sort of did that in the B2B game that got reset, so when robz was scum and I was still town.

So I'm thinking that most likely one of robz and ashersky is scum, but ashersky is still more likely.

and then e added this, some of which I agree with:
 

In fact, Robz? Here is some stuff on him- Opens up the liopoil case that "scum!lio struggles early but plays better late."  Gets a bunch of sheep.  He originally gives slight credence to my Faust case, but then is turned off the case by Ashersky.  He throws out his vote for sale here saying he is concerned about a bad D1.  Jumps to Lekkit for a lurker lynch temporarily before realizing Lekkit wasn't really lurking just posting less frequently but still with content, then moves to Eevee as his lurker lynch after I point out that Eevee is more of a lurker.  Throws his vote out for sale again.  Has the whole episode of "wait no one post info about the setup because it might help scum!faust with a fakeclaim." (starting here)  He then jumps onto the little wagon against me for a bit here before Faust reveals that he was lying about his fakeclaim.  Robz then ends the day with his vote on me, after unvoting Faust to avoid ending the day before some people could comment.  I recognize his "D1s are famously lacksadaisical" (to quote Ash from BM14 since he put it so nicely in the role PM) but putting his vote up for sale? twice?  His D2 has not been great but no one has really stood out too much as being amazing, and I think he can probably (safely) trust that his meta will carry him through and avoid a lynch.

So this has been long and winding and a bunch of people posted while I was typing this, but I think it lands me at vote: Robz.  I am not comfortable with the way he went through D1, and he has not done anything today to shake that feeling.

I see lekkit voted for ash, and with my vote, that would be 4 people... are there two more who would vote for ash? at this point I really prefer that over robz.

oh, and CHAIRS! how did that get forgotten. We should lynch chairs if we can't get ashersky. maybe over robz even.

teproc is behind all three of those above. I'll vote there to get a lynch, but I think we can get a better one.

All the reasons in here are really, really bad though. 2.7's reasons are just a summary of things I've done. And your thing... aren't you falling for the "hedging is scummy" argument, which has always and only been pushed by people who are themselves scum?

[2.71828.....]

I think I'd rather move to Robz over ash, but I still feel most comfortable with Teproc of the 3 wagons currently out.

I have my reasons to believe ash is probably town.

What are they?

Chairs, at this point, I completely agree with Robz that you need to share with us those reasons.  In my mind, you are 100% PR or scum, and I am about 70% scum on you right now.  If you have extra information, I think it is time for you to share that with us.  You don't have to full claim or anything, but we need you to share your reasoning, at least in regards to this since Ash is a viable lynch

[2.71828.....]

4 hours to deadline.

lynches that I think could possibly happen in order of likelihood:  Ash, Robz, Chairs, Teproc

Even though Teproc is at 4 votes, I really don't see more people joining that wagon.  Ash is the easy lynch, but I am not a fan as of right now (will vote for a lynch though).  I think Robz is more likely than Chairs because he has a couple votes on him right now.  I put chairs down as viable at all because I really think we could get the support for the lynch before deadline.

I know I am not an IC or anything to demand posts from people, but I think it would help if everyone listed these four players in order of lynch preference.  For me:  Robz>Chairs>Ash>Teproc

[Voltaire]

Ash is the easy lynch, but I am not a fan as of right now (will vote for a lynch though).

Ash is not an easy lynch! He drew 2ish votes at the start of the day and then just sat there. Now some people are finally coming around on him.

ash > Teproc > chairs/Robz

[Robz888]

Ash>>>>chairs>Teproc>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Robz

[Lekkit]

ash, chairs, Robz, Teproc.

[chairs]

I am a Tracker.  Ashersky did not target anybody last night.

What's done is done, I guess.  This isn't like being a cop, where it clears him, but to me this feels like town!ash anyway.

[Teproc]

Still phoneposting but I'll have more thoughts in a few hours. I don't like any of our current wagons except the chairs one (for reasons explained before, I don't have strong scum reads so he's the most likely to be scum ).

vote : chairs

If I had to order the current wagons : chairs >>>>>>>>> Robz > ash

[Teproc]

Well then. unvote

[liopoil]

Chairs, why did you target ash? ash, don't neccessarily counter if you did target someone, there could be a bus driver.

[2.71828.....]

I am a Tracker.  Ashersky did not target anybody last night.

What's done is done, I guess.  This isn't like being a cop, where it clears him, but to me this feels like town!ash anyway.

Ash hasn't claimed anything has he?  Other than flavor.  This new info makes me think Ash could very well be a VT.  If we believe chairs.  I tend to believe chairs, I just wish he had come out the gate and claimed to start D2

[Robz888]

For your consideration: The following is my fake claim on Day 2 of Mafia XIX. My partner, mcmc, was in trouble, and here's what I did to save him:

Okay, I do think the Mcmc lynch is a mistake. I am a 1-shot Tracker. Last night, I tracked mcmcsalot. He took no action. I think this makes him significantly less likely to be scum, given what we know already.

FWIW, I have some (disastrous) experience as a Tracker (in M-XII, where I epic fail at it), but I still think my psychology for picking who to track was pretty much on in that game, so I stuck with it. I don't want to track the obvious people, because the obvious people aren't going to kill anyone (because they expect the tracker to be watching them). This is mafia 101, even in games without a tracker for some reason the less suspicious partner does the kill (Galz always did the kill in M-II; I was more suspicious, even though it didn't matter). So I was not going to track the people who came under heavy suspicion yesterday, which includes shraeye, Jimm, and Eevee basically. I was never going to track Galzria because he's just too obvious a person anyway, and there's always that likelihood he gets nightkilled just for being Galzria--which I bet is what happened here; I doubt a scum faction really thought they were shooting scum in Galz. So I wanted to pick someone who I thought could be scum, but who didn't know that I thought they could be scum. Like, Glooble and Dsell I really didn't think were scum, so I wasn't picking them. Also, just from what I know about my brother, he's like a really gung-ho guy (he posted his phone number in blitz whatever for goodness sake, so people could tell him when the lynch was happening), and it seemed reasonable if he was on a scumfaction he'd be likely to be the one taking the shot, just because he wanted to, in addition to everything else.

Well, he didn't do anything. I've thought about this a lot; this means he's probably not scum, right? If he were scum, and he were on Galzria's team, well, Galz is the rolecop, and it's pretty likely Galz can't take the shot AND rolecop someone, so unless it's a three person team, Mcmc takes the shot there. If Mcmc were SK, he has to take the shot. Of course there's a perfectly plausible scenario where Mcmc is on some other team, and for whatever reason was not the person who took the shot.

But anyway, I think we'd have to be PRETTY SURE to lynch him, since mathematically it seems to me like his odds of scum are much, much lower, right? I wouldn't bring this up if I thought it was a slamdunk case, but it's not a slamdunk case and from where I am standing it is the least likely lynch to hit scum.

[Voltaire]

I am a Tracker.  Ashersky did not target anybody last night.

What's done is done, I guess.  This isn't like being a cop, where it clears him, but to me this feels like town!ash anyway.

Ash who got heat wouldn't do the kill.

Scum have a decent chance of having a busdriver.

I'm still willing to lynch ash, is what I am saying. Not as willing as before, but still very very very willing.

[Robz888]

Not saying that chairs' result is necessarily fake, just that I didn't something eerily similar to save my partner from lynch on Day 2 of another game. I worked, by the way--mcmc was spared and my scum team won that game.

If chairs isn't lying, which may of course be the case, I totally see why he would come forward with this, but it proves very little. Scum!ash has partners, possibly a bus driver, possibly ninja-shot.

[liopoil]

Yeah, I still want to lynch ash

[Voltaire]

For the record, I am currently believing of the claim.

[Voltaire]

So, I'll lynch ash or Teproc. But I vastly prefer ash. That said, I do like both lynches so I am strangely serenely happy here at deadline.

[2.71828.....]

The nice thing that lynching Ash would do is if he were scum we have basically caught scum!chairs a la Robz being scum in the game he quoted

[Voltaire]

The nice thing that lynching Ash would do is if he were scum we have basically caught scum!chairs a la Robz being scum in the game he quoted

No...that's not true at all. Chairs could be town, ash could be scum who didn't do the kill, and X could be ash's partner who did do the kill.

[2.71828.....]

The nice thing that lynching Ash would do is if he were scum we have basically caught scum!chairs a la Robz being scum in the game he quoted

No...that's not true at all. Chairs could be town, ash could be scum who didn't do the kill, and X could be ash's partner who did do the kill.

Well it would at least make us seriously consider chairs as our next lynch

[Voltaire]

The nice thing that lynching Ash would do is if he were scum we have basically caught scum!chairs a la Robz being scum in the game he quoted

No...that's not true at all. Chairs could be town, ash could be scum who didn't do the kill, and X could be ash's partner who did do the kill.

Well it would at least make us seriously consider chairs as our next lynch

Ok, well, yeah, we probably would. If we're right today. You should vote for ash.

[2.71828.....]

The nice thing that lynching Ash would do is if he were scum we have basically caught scum!chairs a la Robz being scum in the game he quoted

No...that's not true at all. Chairs could be town, ash could be scum who didn't do the kill, and X could be ash's partner who did do the kill.

Well it would at least make us seriously consider chairs as our next lynch

Ok, well, yeah, we probably would. If we're right today. You should vote for ash.

vote: Ash

I don't want to lynch chairs because of the claim.  I don't think Robz is gaining any traction.  And it is 2 hours before the deadline

[Voltaire]

That's L-1 on ash.

[2.71828.....]

If Ash flips town, I think chairs is town.  If Ash flips scum, I think chairs is scum.  Either way, we learn something valuable going into D3

[Voltaire]

OK, Teproc, who do you want?

[Robz888]

I have to run out for a bit, but I will be back on in advance of deadline. Still think ash lynch is the best move.

[Voltaire]

I have to run out for a bit, but I will be back on in advance of deadline. Still think ash lynch is the best move.

[liopoil]

before chairs claim:

ash >>> robz = chairs >>>> teproc

after chairs claim:

ash >> robz >>>> teproc >>>>>>>> chairs

[liopoil]

Scum Roles
TTTTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Serial Killer
TTTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver
TTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Serial Killer
TTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT (Roleblock, Ninja Kill, Strongman Kill)
TTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer
TT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT
T = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer
0 Ts = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT

no matter what there is one, maybe two ways that chairs' result could be tampered with.

[liopoil]

my theory now is that the reason they didn't kill chairs was that they bus drove him.

[2.71828.....]

my theory now is that the reason they didn't kill chairs was that they bus drove him.

would they use a 1-shot bus drive N1 though?

[liopoil]

my theory now is that the reason they didn't kill chairs was that they bus drove him.

would they use a 1-shot bus drive N1 though?

if they have a player who is likely to be a PR then I think yes. otherwise the bus driver might get lynched and they never get a chance to use it. Now is their chance to create confusion.

[2.71828.....]

Who is around to hammer Ash?  I really don't see us lynching anyone else today? 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Wow. Have only skimmed the last couple pages. Chairs claimed tracker? And Ash is at L-1?
Be back as soon as I've caught up.

[2.71828.....]

Who is around to hammer Ash?  I really don't see us lynching anyone else today?

That was supposed to be a period not a question mark and the end of the second sentence

[Ichimaru Gin]

Who is around to hammer Ash?  I really don't see us lynching anyone else today?

I'm willing to hammer. But we still have what, an hour and a half left?

[liopoil]

Who is around to hammer Ash?  I really don't see us lynching anyone else today? 

teproc will be back, and he'll do it to save himself.

I want to hear from ash

[Teproc]

I'm here now, rereading. I won't hammer ash because I don't think he's scum, although I'll do it if we're like 5 minutes to deadline and there's nobody there ?

How far is the deadline now ?

[liopoil]

I'm here now, rereading. I won't hammer ash because I don't think he's scum, although I'll do it if we're like 5 minutes to deadline and there's nobody there ?

How far is the deadline now ?

deadline is at 6pm, so under 90 minutes.

[Teproc]

Yeah, so I'll leave it to someone who actually believes ash to be scum for now. It seems unlikely that we lynch someone else, but it gives us better wagon analysis if I don't do it unless absolutely necessary.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And. . .vote count?
I see us learning the most from an Ash lynch. Chair's claim changes everything.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 2.7

ashersky (5): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828
Robz888 (1): ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 2nd at 6 pm(1 hour 20min). To account for holidays

[Ichimaru Gin]

I want to hear from ash

Yes, same here. I am really close to hammering him, but I'd like to hear what he has to say first.

[ashersky]

Scum team includes volt/Robz or lekkit/Ichimaru.  I am not sure of a third for either pairing.  I like lio for the possible SK. 

You should not have claimed, chairs.

vote: ashersky

I refuse to claim.

[Teproc]

Ugh. For the record my reread is making me doubt the town read I had on Voltaire. But ash's flip should be useful in that regard anyway.

If you're town ash, you're just no playing to your wincon here, and it's very annoying.

[2.71828.....]

And there we have it

[Voltaire]

DERP

Ash better flip scum or it's gonna be Clue all over again.

[liopoil]

Ash better flip scum

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why do you think he didn't claim?
I sense a great amount of frustration from him. But if he's town, I just don't see why he wouldn't claim when it was so close.

Is Derphammering when you self hammer?

[Voltaire]

I think (hope) that ash is frustrated caught scum who realized that even if he voted Teproc, unless someone else moves he's going to be the lynch. Rather then let town gain additional information in who cast the hammer/force one of his buddies to hammer him for awkward towncred, he hammered himself. That all seems in line with what scum!ash would do.

Because I can think of 0 town narratives that make sense.

Like, why the heck should we trust his reads, him of the faust=100% scum diatribes?

[Teproc]

He didn't claim because there's no way he wasn't getting lynched I think. Well, maybe a PR claim would have gotten me lynched instead but if he's VT that doesn't work of course. His self-hammering makes me think (and hope) he's scum just preventing us from getting extra wagon analysis.

[Voltaire]

Is Derphammering when you self hammer?

Technically, derphammering refers to accidentally casting a hammer (usually due to confusion about the vote count).

I think self-voting is almost always a derp.

[chairs]

Chairs, why did you target ash? ash, don't neccessarily counter if you did target someone, there could be a bus driver.

He seemed to be vaguely hinting PR, I figured if he targeted somebody and didn't have that person die at night we had a really good chance he was town.

[liopoil]

I can think of 0 town narratives that make sense.

unfortunately, this means nothing 

Like, why the heck should we trust his reads, him of the faust=100% scum diatribes?

also faust's dying words were for us to lynch ashersky... so if ash is town, then that's a reason not to trust the reads of dead townies.

[ashersky]

I can think of 0 town narratives that make sense.

unfortunately, this means nothing 

Like, why the heck should we trust his reads, him of the faust=100% scum diatribes?

also faust's dying words were for us to lynch ashersky... so if ash is town, then that's a reason not to trust the reads of dead townies.

Check out lio trying to taint my words for tomorrow.

[2.71828.....]

I can think of 0 town narratives that make sense.

unfortunately, this means nothing 

Like, why the heck should we trust his reads, him of the faust=100% scum diatribes?

also faust's dying words were for us to lynch ashersky... so if ash is town, then that's a reason not to trust the reads of dead townies.

Check out lio trying to taint my words for tomorrow.

Which we will take into consideration if you do indeed flip town

[Voltaire]

Check out lio trying to taint my words for tomorrow.

You just never stop, do you? If you're town, I will listen to nothing you have said because you have scummed up, like, everyone you've ever talked about.

[Ichimaru Gin]

It's funny that the only people Ash says are scum were either on his wagon, or me--who was threatening to hammer.

[liopoil]

I can think of 0 town narratives that make sense.

unfortunately, this means nothing 

Like, why the heck should we trust his reads, him of the faust=100% scum diatribes?

also faust's dying words were for us to lynch ashersky... so if ash is town, then that's a reason not to trust the reads of dead townies.

Check out lio trying to taint my words for tomorrow.

reminds me of ash in mean girls on D3 when his lynch was inevitable. I'm feeling hopeful

[ashersky]

99% sure I was the lynch anyway.  Self hammer does:

1) takes away the deadline hammer for town cred option away from scum
2) protects teproc, who I believe is town

Volt and Robz tunneled me hard together all game.  Remember that.

[ashersky]

Check out lio trying to taint my words for tomorrow.

You just never stop, do you? If you're town, I will listen to nothing you have said because you have scummed up, like, everyone you've ever talked about.

Obvscum.

[Robz888]

Ash, no one tunneled you as hard as you yourself tunneled A) faust, and B) those who criticize you.

Better be scum.

[ashersky]

Chairs, why did you target ash? ash, don't neccessarily counter if you did target someone, there could be a bus driver.

He seemed to be vaguely hinting PR, I figured if he targeted somebody and didn't have that person die at night we had a really good chance he was town.

You are correct in your thinking.  Just shouldn't have claimed.

How funny would it be if I was vengeful?  There's a good reason to "scum it up."

[ashersky]

Ash, no one tunneled you as hard as you yourself tunneled A) faust, and B) those who criticize you.

Better be scum.

Incorrect.  I did tunnel Faust.  Epic tunnel.

However, no one criticized me all game, so I didn't tunnel anyone for doing so.

[Voltaire]

2) protects teproc, who I believe is town

If you flip VT, I guess I'll give you that. Doesn't outweigh everything else.

Trust me, I've noticed Robz being reasonable and helpful. I'm wondering now. But I want your flip first.

[Voltaire]

How funny would it be if I was vengeful?  There's a good reason to "scum it up."

No, not really. I trust town's collective reads (even when they're biased by scum) waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than your reads this game.

[liopoil]

2) protects teproc, who I believe is town

If you flip VT, I guess I'll give you that. Doesn't outweigh everything else.

nahhh, don't give him anything.

[2.71828.....]

Ash, no one tunneled you as hard as you yourself tunneled A) faust, and B) those who criticize you.

Better be scum.

Incorrect.  I did tunnel Faust.  Epic tunnel.

However, no one criticized me all game, so I didn't tunnel anyone for doing so.

I wouldn't call it an epic tunnel.  All you did was say Faust is 100% scum.  I am the one who actually built anything resembling a case.  You just stuck on that case even after I left it.  The only reason Faust got lynched was because of Faust.

[Robz888]

2) protects teproc, who I believe is town

Trust me, I've noticed Robz being reasonable and helpful. I'm wondering now. But I want your flip first.

I can say the same about you, though.

[Voltaire]

I wouldn't call it an epic tunnel.  All you did was say Faust is 100% scum.  I am the one who actually built anything resembling a case.  You just stuck on that case even after I left it.

You just defined "tunnel".

[mcmcsalot]

Thread Locked

[mcmcsalot]

Final Vote Count

ashersky (6): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828, ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

With 11 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

Night 2 has begun Day 3 begins on January 4th at 6pm

Ashersky was Zhuge Liang (Zhang Fei), a Vanilla Townie

[mcmcsalot]

Day 3 Start

Chairs has been killed in the night, he was Pang Tong, the Town Tracker

Day 3 will last ten days and end on January 15th at 8pm.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 3.0

Not Voting (9): teproc, Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828, Ichimaru Gin, mail-mi, yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 15th at 8 pm

[liopoil]

so frustrating. D1 mislynch because of town fakeclaim, D2 mislynch because ridiculous town play + self-hammer.

oh, and two town PRs dead in two nights.

what we know about the setup: I-R-?-?-?-?-?. so nothing useful.

[Teproc]

It was ridiculous town play, but I still think the ash lynch was scummy. Looking at the final vote counts both days :

Day 1 :

faust (7): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru, yuma, Eevee, mail-mi
Eevee (3): 2.7, faust, Teproc
2.7 (1): Robz
liopoil (1): chairs
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Day 2 :

ashersky (6): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, liopoil, 2.7, ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): Teproc

So Lekkit and liopoil are the only ones to be on-wagon for both mislynches, although 2.7 was also on mislynch wagons on both days. I also happen to know that Ichimaru, mail-mi and yuma would fit that bill as well, but of course you guys don't.
Meanwhile I'm the only one off-wagon both times, whatever you might think that means.

This means that I will be looking at Lekkit and liopoil first today. Mislynching twice doesn't make them scum of course, but it deserves scrutiny.

[liopoil]

I think these are the kinds of lynches that draw town in, and that scum are more likely to be off-wagon than they would normally because the wagon doesn't really need help to go through. Does this make the people off wagon more suspicious? No, but it lessens the amount that  being on wagon is scummy.

Just being on/off wagon doesn't mean much either, everyone had their own route that they came to that vote. And then for the off wagon people, many of them at one point voted for the player who ended up getting lynched.

and to the same extent that people who are on wagon are scummy, the people who were the alternative wagons are slightly scummy, because if they are scum then they and their buddies want to push the other wagon through. So that makes teproc and eevee look bad, except that eevee is dead town so we know this isn't terribly accurate.

For the most part I don't like just looking at wagons for catching scum. looking at the roles specific players played in getting the lynch that happened to happen, sure.

[mail-mi]

If we mislynch today, tomorrow is mylo, btw.

Meanwhile I'm the only one off-wagon both times, whatever you might think that means.

I think that means that you're scummier. Staying off the easy mislyches and holding back your vote from any wagon (day 2) is scummy because you, as scum, want to be "safe" and stay off mislynches.. So vote: teproc

[Teproc]

Sure. I didn't vote late into day 2 because the options were ash or me and I thought ash was town. It was also to late to launch another wagon, as ash was obviously getting lynched by the end.

[yuma]

It was ridiculous town play, but I still think the ash lynch was scummy. Looking at the final vote counts both days :

Day 1 :

faust (7): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru, yuma, Eevee, mail-mi
Eevee (3): 2.7, faust, Teproc
2.7 (1): Robz
liopoil (1): chairs
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Day 2 :

ashersky (6): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, liopoil, 2.7, ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): Teproc

So Lekkit and liopoil are the only ones to be on-wagon for both mislynches, although 2.7 was also on mislynch wagons on both days. I also happen to know that Ichimaru, mail-mi and yuma would fit that bill as well, but of course you guys don't.
Meanwhile I'm the only one off-wagon both times, whatever you might think that means.

This means that I will be looking at Lekkit and liopoil first today. Mislynching twice doesn't make them scum of course, but it deserves scrutiny.

so everyone is scummy except for you, robz and voltaire? You kinda paint with a wide brush here saying that lekkit, liopoil, 2.7, ichimaru, mail-mi and yuma are all suspicious just based off the vote counts...

But I am with lio on this point. You have to look at the context of where people are on the wagons and how they contributed to it....

[yuma]

Post count - old post count for reference:

1. Voltaire - 203
2. Robz888 - 154
3. mail-mi - 67
6. Yuma - 128
7. Ichimaru Gin -
8. Lekkit - 46
9. Liopoil - 111
10. Teproc - 128
11. 2.7 - 184

[mail-mi]

Post count - old post count for reference:

1. Voltaire - 203
2. Robz888 - 154
3. mail-mi - 67
6. Yuma - 128
7. Ichimaru Gin -
8. Lekkit - 46
9. Liopoil - 111
10. Teproc - 128
11. 2.7 - 184

Hm. Everybody looks about normal to me.

[2.71828.....]

ugh.  6 town to 3 scum.  I believe we have either 1 or 3 town PRs left, but I do not want any claims unless there is some super indicting evidence.  (basically I am ruling out the rolls where SK is involved.  A single NK both nights makes me think no SK, and with 2 confirmed PRs that means that we have either 3,5, or 7 town PRs.  I think it is most likely 1, but could very well be 3 left.)

[2.71828.....]

but we need to be real careful with our votes.  2 town+3 scum=lynch

[Ichimaru Gin]

Post count - old post count for reference:

7. Ichimaru Gin -

?

[2.71828.....]

Post count - old post count for reference:

1. Voltaire - 203
2. Robz888 - 154
3. mail-mi - 67
6. Yuma - 128
7. Ichimaru Gin - 69
8. Lekkit - 46
9. Liopoil - 111
10. Teproc - 128
11. 2.7 - 184

FTFY

[yuma]

Post count - old post count for reference:

7. Ichimaru Gin -

?

sorry. I search via "goko username: xxxx" and since you don't have one I skipped you and forgot to go back to it. 2.7 fixed it for me.

[2.71828.....]

Post count - old post count for reference:

7. Ichimaru Gin -

?

sorry. I search via "goko username: xxxx" and since you don't have one I skipped you and forgot to go back to it. 2.7 fixed it for me.

yeah.  you can search "ambassador" since Ichimaru is the only one with that status. 

[Teproc]

so everyone is scummy except for you, robz and voltaire? You kinda paint with a wide brush here saying that lekkit, liopoil, 2.7, ichimaru, mail-mi and yuma are all suspicious just based off the vote counts...

But I am with lio on this point. You have to look at the context of where people are on the wagons and how they contributed to it....

Yeah, that's definitely what I said. Definitely.

I didn't offer any analysis out of the fact that I'm the only one off-wagon both times because it is rather pointless to analyse my own voting record. Basically I just decided to look at wagons to know who I would prioritize in my rereads. If you actually took the time to read my post, you'd notice I didn't say people were suspicious for being on mislynched twice... I just stated a fact. Now you might attack me for info instead of analysis, but this ? I don't get it.

[Teproc]

Robz, do the flavor names we've gotten from flips so far confirm that flavor isn't indicative of PRness ?

[Voltaire]

My energy for this game is going to increase when my other ongoing game finishes, I promise. Top scum reads right now are...oh god, everyone. 

[2.71828.....]

My energy for this game is going to increase when my other ongoing game finishes, I promise. Top scum reads right now are...oh god, everyone. 

and you have a 3/8 (32.5%) chance of being correct!

[2.71828.....]

My energy for this game is going to increase when my other ongoing game finishes, I promise. Top scum reads right now are...oh god, everyone. 

and you have a 3/8 (37.5%) chance of being correct!

oh my.  i totally messed that percentage up

[Teproc]

That's assuming he isn't scum. Do you know something we don't, e ?

*THIS POST MAY CONTAIN SARCASM*

[2.71828.....]

That's assuming he isn't scum. Do you know something we don't, e ?

*THIS POST MAY CONTAIN SARCASM*

Well, I [sarcasm]know[/sarcasm] you have a 2/8 shot of hitting scum

vote: teproc  (not bolded, not a real vote....yet.)

newbie Ichimaru caught scum.  And our dead town tracker voted you.  Your response was very, "oh, nice.  The new guy has a case against me.  Here is my very civil response with an unvote to boot.  Hopefully this little case disappears"

[Teproc]

So you think I unvoted because I was scared Ichimaru's post would unleash a wagon on me ? If I'm not mistaken, his vote on me was the first, right ? So why would I be scared at that point ?

I unvoted because I thought Ichimaru's reasoning was townie, though wrong. I find it interesting that you're now convinced by it, given that you found my hedging town towards the end of day 1 (something like "town is scared of mislynching, wants to mull things over"). I guess that only applied because it was you I was having second thoughts about then ?

[Teproc]

Also, chairs voted for me, yes. So ? If you want to go down that road, ash apparently thought I was town !

Here's a hint : being town doesn't make you right. In fact, it's a lot easier for scum to be right. The only people who know my alignment are scum and myself.

[Robz888]

Robz, do the flavor names we've gotten from flips so far confirm that flavor isn't indicative of PRness ?

I think, basically yes, flavor doesn't tell us much. I mean these characters are all generals in a war, they can all be vageuly rationalized in one way or another, like, "Oh, he kept his army safe--Doctor! Oh, he led an ambush unit, Hider!" Pang Tong feigned defection to Cao Cao's forces and advised him to chain his ships together, ostensibly to prevent seasickness but actually because this made it easier or the fire attack to destroy Cao Cao's navy. in our game he's the Tracker so... yeah I not much of a connection, it seems to me.

It's also certainly true that important flavor role does not equal PR. Or else Ash/Zhuge Liang would have been one.

[Robz888]

Thoughts at this point...

Post count - old post count for reference:

1. Voltaire - 203
2. Robz888 - 154
3. mail-mi - 67
6. Yuma - 128
7. Ichimaru Gin - 69
8. Lekkit - 46
9. Liopoil - 111
10. Teproc - 128
11. 2.7 - 184

FTFY

Lekkit and yuma are I think the most under-suspected players still alive. I don't feel much suspicion for yuma, but Lekkit probably deserves more of a critical eye than he had received so far.

After light suspicion Day 1, mail-mi all but disappeared on Day 2, did he not?

On Teproc:

Also, chairs voted for me, yes. So ? If you want to go down that road, ash apparently thought I was town !

Here's a hint : being town doesn't make you right. In fact, it's a lot easier for scum to be right. The only people who know my alignment are scum and myself.

But ash's opinion in this game is discredited; chairs isn't. If Voltaire died and flipped town I would give serious weight to his opinion, you know.

On 2.7, I thought he was scummy a long time ago, but cooled to that. Don't know where I stand on him now.

Liopoil seems like town now, just because he's survived the pressure like twice now.  Think nkirbit in Mafia XXIX.

I would rather lose than be conned by Voltaire, but I still lean strong town. He's had all the stances I've had, but in a seemingly authentic way, rather than a mimicking one.

Ichi sill feels like town to me.

So... scummy seeming: Lekkit, mail-mi, Teproc, possibly 2.7
Townie seeming: Yuma, Voltaire, Ichimaru, liopoil

[liopoil]

my reads have become a fair bit weaker now that ash flipped town... feels like I haven't got anything right lately. What I've got is:

lean scum: robz, teproc
null-maybe-scummy?: yuma, 2.7
null-maybe-townie?: lekkit, ichimaru gin, mail-mi
Town: liopoil, voltaire

[Ichimaru Gin]

my reads have become a fair bit weaker now that ash flipped town... feels like I haven't got anything right lately. What I've got is:

lean scum: robz, teproc
null-maybe-scummy?: yuma, 2.7
null-maybe-townie?: lekkit, ichimaru gin, mail-mi
Town: liopoil, voltaire

Why do you have a town-read on voltaire?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Players I think are scum, or leaning scum: Teproc, Lekkit, Voltaire,
Player's I'm unsure about/mild town-read: Robz, Mail-Mi, Yuma, Liopoil, 2.7

 

so frustrating. D1 mislynch because of town fakeclaim, D2 mislynch because ridiculous town play + self-hammer.

oh, and two town PRs dead in two nights.

what we know about the setup: I-R-?-?-?-?-?. so nothing useful.

I agree with this. It's unfortunate that the lynch-pool hasn't been narrowed down more.

[Lekkit]

I'd like to know everyone's stance on 2.7 and Voltaire.

[2.71828.....]

I'd like to know everyone's stance on 2.7 and Voltaire.

Thats nice. 

As long as we are in the business of making requests of people, I'd like everyone to wait to share their opinions until Lekkit puts out his stance first. 

[Lekkit]

I most likely won't. I have stuff to claim. But I want to know other peoples' stance on you before I do.

[Teproc]

Interesting. I have very conflicting opinions about both those players so I'll do a quick reread of each of them right now.

I think it's fine to ask questions for everyone to answer. It could be mafia trying to get a feel for possible mislynches of course, but it's generally good for town to force everyone to speak about something. Plus the obvious implication here is that Lekkit is a PR with some kind of info on 2.7 / Voltaire, in which case having everyone speak before we know what it is seems obviously useful.

[mail-mi]

I'd like to know everyone's stance on 2.7 and Voltaire.

2.7 got surpassed by teproc in scuminess but is still number 2.

Voltaire null-to-slightly-scummy.

[Voltaire]

e is vaguely scummy but I do not want to lynch him based on what I know right now. I think there are better options available.

Of course I trust myself to have read my PM correctly.

[yuma]

I'd like to know everyone's stance on 2.7 and Voltaire.

I started out with a scum read on 2.7 day1 and was really surprised by your extremely strong town read on him... you said something like 10% and never did quite figure out how you could have such a read. Now... I don't know. My initial suspicion of him was based off him lurking and then posting more when called out on it, but this is certainly mitigated as he has been constantly posting since that point, something that I guess scum could do, but is more of a tell that his low posting earlier was kinda a fluke? I think that his creation (more or less) of the faust wagon and then not being on it is mildly scummy... kinda a build the heat, but stay out of the fire sort of thing--but that is also mitigated by him stating that he was willing to hammer and by just the complete weirdness of day1. Day2 in rereading I noticed an odd flip-flop on teproc that I would like 2.7 to address at some point specifically posts: 1304 and 1339. He also started out the day as town on ashersky, but slowly moved toward him being scum... he had one big post 1255 that doesn't give an opinion, but just a little bit later he is willing to vote for ashersky. his reasoning is thus: "Ashersky- His play has been, uh, interesting.  I really don't know what to make of it.  I could see it coming from scum!ash or town!ash.  willing to vote" So I could see a narrative of 2.7 seeing the ash wagon growing and thinking "i could vote for this wagon to move it along and get a mislynch." But later says that ash is an easy lynch and isn't a fan of it, but will (and does) vote for it.

So yeah... There is some stuff in looking at 2.7 that makes me raise my eyebrows. I think he would be in my would lynch category at this point, but I don't know where in comparison to others...


Voltaire: he came out on fire and ended up being correct about chairs being town and a PR. I think the big takeway from day1 is that I feel like voltaire stayed away from the large wagons (not sure if it was intentional or unintentional... the first being scummy, the latter being less scummy) as he was voting for mail-mi and ash who never really got much heat on them day1. He was an ardent supporter of faust being town, and ended up on the counter wagon on eevee. The scum narrative for this is one I have used before in trying to be the counter argument to town. It is a easy narrative for scum to slip into, but I don't know if I see voltaire being on that side just because he doens't do some of the things that I think that narrative often portrays. Whereas I think the better narrative for him is town trying to use a different approach to finding scum (didn't necessarily work on eevee and ash) but I see him being more like the modern community voltaire here, working a different angle than everyone else to hopefully come up wtih good results. Day2 I kinda feel like he got stuck in an argument with ashersky and couldn't get himself out of it. I have been there as both town (like ever game from MXIX to MXXX and scum (Wibbley Wobbley).

So I think I lean a little more on the town side, certainly more so than 2.7.

[Teproc]

Let's do 2.7 first. He was my biggest scum read with the way he inflated his faust case and tried to diminish every other case going on at the time, but I then got town vibes from his attitude at the end of day 1. Since then I've been leaning town on him, but haven't really gone back to him all that much.

First there's his flavour claiming. ash had already done it at this point, and he turned out to be completely right about the relation between flavour and PRness, so I'll count that as townie. I still don't like that he claimed that early but oh well, ash did the same and he was town. Although I guess scum could have seen ash getting credit for his early flavour claim and figured they needed to do the same. Still, I'm mostly getting a town vibe from his participation in the claiming discussion.

Then there's the whole yuma thing (yuma calls him out, among others, for low post count and he starts posting like crazy). I don't get much from that, I was feeling the same way at that time (a lot had happened but I had nothing to say) and I think town will also try to be more active if called out on it.

Then we get to the case on faust. It's weak, and I find it weird that 2.7 (like ash and others) insisted so much on the "he's a good mislynch" thing. That's the kind of nonsensical reasoning town uses all the time (unfortunately), and it's pretty easy for scum to try and get town credit by grandstanding about it. The fact that he then dismisses every single case in existence as being weak, as opposed to his case on faust is what made me vote for him at the time. Still scummy on the reread. It's also interesting that he seems to be against Lekkit asking for everyone's opinion now when that's exactly what he was doing at the time, constantly asking what people thought of faust.

He's been defending Voltaire, a lot. Doesn't say much right now, but worth noting.

Talks about himself in his POE late day 1, providing a scum narrative for his attitude. I really, really don't like that. I allows scum to discredit arguments against them by responding to them before they're even made.

Tries to get a chairs wagon going late day 1, because lynching a PR gives us info ? Or something ? That was really weird and I completely forgot about it (here for reference)

He then does what earned him an unvote from me, which is trying to launch an Eevee wagon when the lynch looked like it was going to be him or faust. I still think this is worth a good amount of town points.

After that, I don't have much to say. He was one of the players keeing the game active in the holiday weeks, and his attitude day 2 was townie for the most part.

In the end, I think I land on slight town for e.

Going to do Voltaire now, although I resent the fact that you chose the two top-posters for this. This took way longer than I expected (although I got interrupted a lot).

[Teproc]

Actually I just realized I already reread Voltaire late day 2 when I was looking for someone that wasn't ash to vote for. His day 1 play doesn't make much sense, and town!Voltaire usually makes sense (except when he tries to POE 2 days in). I thought he was being too conspicuous for it to be scum!Voltaire, but in the last two games he's been in, he's been accused of not being "awesome" enough to be town!Voltaire, so it's possible that he would just try to be hyperactive to kill that kind of case. His hardcore tunneling on ash on day 2 is also a pretty comfortable place to be in : he didn't actually post that much content in day 2 thanks to that.

So slight scum on Voltaire.

And sorry for the crazy link above, forgot the [/url] apparently :/

[2.71828.....]

Day2 in rereading I noticed an odd flip-flop on teproc that I would like 2.7 to address at some point specifically posts: 1304 and 1339.

I don't really see a flip-flop in those two posts.
1304 I agree with Robz assessment concerning a post Teproc made about Ichimaru.  Then in 1339 I have a post where I discuss all the people currently on my lynch list.  At the start of the post that was Ashersky, Chairs, Ichimaru, mail-mi, and liopoil.  By the end of the post that was Robz, Ichimaru, Ashersky, Chairs, and liopoil.  I do not discuss Teproc at all in 1339.  So is the flip-flop because I stated that I thought Teproc posted something that seemed a little scummy but I did not have him on my lynch list?  1304 was one post.  I was looking back over the whole thread and so no, at the time I did not find Teproc scummy enough to have him on my lynch list despite one scummy sounding post.

He also started out the day as town on ashersky, but slowly moved toward him being scum... he had one big post 1255 that doesn't give an opinion, but just a little bit later he is willing to vote for ashersky. his reasoning is thus: "Ashersky- His play has been, uh, interesting.  I really don't know what to make of it.  I could see it coming from scum!ash or town!ash.  willing to vote" So I could see a narrative of 2.7 seeing the ash wagon growing and thinking "i could vote for this wagon to move it along and get a mislynch." But later says that ash is an easy lynch and isn't a fan of it, but will (and does) vote for it.

As far as my stance on Ash, I did start out thinking he was town.  I don't think you will find anywhere D1 where I said Ash is scum (I didn't go back and check though so I could be wrong here).  1255 is not a post about Ash, but rather a post giving an overview of all of the Faust votes, so I am not sure how that fits here.  When I voted Ash it was 2 hours before the deadline.  Both Ash and Teproc had 4 votes and needed two more.  We needed a lynch.  Choosing between those two I decided that Ash was the better lynch.  The scum narrative of "i could vote for this wagon to move it along and get a mislynch" is not true.  If I were trying to do that I would have voted Ash much sooner.

PPE: Teproc's 2 posts

[Voltaire]

vote: Robz and vote: Teproc are the current things rattling around in my brain. I'm going to need to re-read the thread to really figure this one out.

[liopoil]

Voltaire: my biggest townread.  Like robz said, he's been exactly like normal town voltaire, and it doesn't seem fake. I first got the townread from his reactions at the very start of the game regarding the flavor thing. He was pretty bold in what he was saying, and as scum I think it put him at risk of being caught should the setup been different from what it is. Lastly, I agreed with him in regard to ashersky and the fact that ashersky, who tried super hard to get voltaire lynched, couldn't find any good reasons (I thought) to lynch him makes me not really worried that he's scum.

2.7: I'm gonna actually reread for this one, because despite him having nearly 200 posts I remember very little about him:

first, off-topic a bit, here's something I just stumbled upon - pregame he says this:

I am good with starting whenever, I just may not be able to be as active right out of the gate.  Next week is a relatively busy work week for me.

and then....

FIRST

clearly he must be scum, town wouldn't be this excited to get into the game. 

back to something game related.... WOAH:

I don't know Dynasty Warriors, so mass-claiming flavor names will not really help me.  However, it could be really useful to certain PR town members (Robz?) as they make decisions for night actions.  I like flavor name claiming. 

I am Zhuge Liang

Ashersky was Zhuge Liang, a Vanilla Townie

...what does this mean? is he obvscum? could two people have the same name? did I just out him as VT? is he IC?

I think I'll stop my reread there for now...

[liopoil]

and before people get mad at me for potentially telling scum e isn't a PR, I think they would have found that on their own, and I think there is a good enough chance that it means something else that it's worth it to bring to everyone's attention.

Actually, let's have e explain himself first, before other people react

[Teproc]

What ? How did we miss this ?

So either :
1) BOTH ash and 2.7 lied about their flavor
2) mcmc messed up

mcmc, can you confirm ash's flip ? Because I really don't get why he would lie about his flavour as town (especially since it sounded so PRy, and VTs want to be mistaken for PRs by scum).

[liopoil]

Let's try this.

I'm Zhang Fei.  Does that help anyone figure anything out about how flavor claiming will help us catch scum?

oh, I forgot about this. yeah, that's weirder that I even thought.

[2.71828.....]

I don't know Dynasty Warriors, so mass-claiming flavor names will not really help me.  However, it could be really useful to certain PR town members (Robz?) as they make decisions for night actions.  I like flavor name claiming. 

I am Zhuge Liang

Ashersky was Zhuge Liang, a Vanilla Townie

Oh my.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I didn't even notice that for some reason.

either we were given the same flavor, or mcmc messed up.  He can mod-confirm that, but I am definitely Zhuge Liang

[Voltaire]

Let's try this.

I'm Zhang Fei.  Does that help anyone figure anything out about how flavor claiming will help us catch scum?

Here's ash claiming. So this is either a mod mistake, or ash lied about his flavor.

[liopoil]

seems like mod error is most likely now. so maybe ashersky was scum!? yeah, wishful thinking...

if it is indeed mod error, I think this gives me a fairly large townread on e.

[Teproc]

Why ?

[2.71828.....]

It makes no sense that it is anything but a simple mistake.  I mean, Ash would have brought up my fake flavor (if it was fake) and Ash would not fake flavor claim as town.

[Voltaire]

seems like mod error is most likely now. so maybe ashersky was scum!? yeah, wishful thinking...

if it is indeed mod error, I think this gives me a fairly large townread on e.

Yup.

[Voltaire]

And this strikes me as a townie thing for lio to do, so up goes the town read on him as well.

[Teproc]

Is the reasoning that mcmc is more likely to make that mistake if they're both VTs ? I guess that makes sense, but I don't really like speculating on a mod mistake.

[liopoil]

because he confirmed that he is zhuge liang right away. as scum he might not post until mcmc either confirms or changes the flip, and if it turns out ash was really zhuge liang he might claim to have misread his PM, he was really --insert similarly spelled name here--

hmmm, so maybe not. if he was scum and this was his fakeclaim, I think he'd be more likely to question mcmc about this during the night, 'umm, I thought nobody else would have my fakeclaim'... and also if mcmc made the mistake it pretty much confirms that there is a zhuge liang in the game, and it has to be e otherwise someone would counterclaim.

[Voltaire]

Is the reasoning that mcmc is more likely to make that mistake if they're both VTs ? I guess that makes sense, but I don't really like speculating on a mod mistake.

No, it's not an issue of whether he's more or less likely to make the mistake based on their alignments, it's looking at who claimed what when, what they flipped, and what they've said about it (ie ash never said "Hey, that's my flavor! Obv!scum") and I don't think ash knew the game well enough to invent a flavor.

Also now that ash has flipped town, I find e's early flavor claim to also be more likely to come from town.

[Teproc]

All you're saying is that this means e didn't lie about his flavour which... duh. I was assuming that already.

I agree that his early claim makes him more likely to be town (see my e reread above), but I don't think the mistake mcmc made (presumably) changes anything to how I read e.

Also, I don't think lio picking up on this is particularly townie.

[Voltaire]

Also, I don't think lio picking up on this is particularly townie.

Why?

I'm really warming to a Teproc lynch (still haven't done my re-read though).

[Teproc]

Do you think he wouldn't have done it as scum ? Why ?

[Voltaire]

Do you think he wouldn't have done it as scum ? Why ?

No, but I think he is far more likely to do it as town. Because if lio is scum, he knows e is town. Therefore, if mcmc has indeed made a mistake, he's probably creating an IC (he can try to get town not to think that, but it's what will most likely happen). Why take that risk when you know what the only possible outcome is?

[Voltaire]

Guess I didn't consider a lio/e scumteam...but Occam's Razor here.

[liopoil]

assuming ash is really zhang fei:

let's assume that e is scum for a minute. the name zhuge liang is certainly town, right? he's in one of the two town factions that are fighting the scum together, right robz? zhuge liang is surely his mod-provided fakeclaim then, right? So there is no real zhuge liang in the game. e has his real scum flavor name. if e is scum, then mcmc flipped a flavor name that isn't in the game at all. And, if e is scum, that means he saw ash flip his mod-provided fakeclaim. Surely he would have contacted mcmc regarding this and it would have been fixed during the night, right? as town it's easy to forget your flavorname, I don't know mine off the top of my head right now. Scum who have already used the name to fakeclaim on the other hand... less so I think.

That's why I think that e most likely is really zhuge liang, and so he's likely town.

[Teproc]

@Voltaire : Why would mcmc's mistake make e into an IC ? I don't get this at all.

[Voltaire]

@Voltaire : Why would mcmc's mistake make e into an IC ? I don't get this at all.

Look at what lio just posted. It's all about how everyone else reacted to it.

What is your scenario (possible, likely, whatever you want to call it) where e is scum? Explain that narrative.

[Teproc]

e is scum, his fakeclaim is Zhuge Liang. He saw ash fakeclaim, saw that he was mostly getting town points from it, so he followed suit. He failed to notice mcmc's mistake (like all of us). What more do you need ?

lio's reasoning doesn't make sense to me, because I just think he didn't pay attention to ash's flip, regardless of his alignment.

[Teproc]

By the way I still think e is more likely to be town (see my reread above), I just don't think this whole incident changes anything.

[Robz888]

Well, we need to know whether an error was made before we figure out anything else. Request for moderation.

[liopoil]

e is scum, his fakeclaim is Zhuge Liang. He saw ash fakeclaim, saw that he was mostly getting town points from it, so he followed suit. He failed to notice mcmc's mistake (like all of us). What more do you need ?

still needs mcmc to have flipped a name that isn't in the game at all. He's much more likely to flip a name that another townie has than one that doesn't exist in this game. He could have missed mcmc's mistake, but I think it's more likely for that to happen as town. Also note that all his scumbuddies must have missed it too.

[Teproc]

I guess. Maybe. Ok, points 1 and 3 make sense (that mcmc is unlikely to flip a name that isn't in the game and that his scumbuddies would have pointed it out). Town points to e then.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Wow. This is what I get for sleeping in I guess.

Ok. Before this whole flavor-name duplication incident, I was feeling mildly town on e. Now, I think I'll have to wait for confirmation from mcmc for the flavor stuff.

Still feeling mildly scummy on Voltaire. But I'm gonna have to do a major reread before I feel anything more definite.

My reads are still pretty much the same since my last reads post.

I'd like to know everyone's stance on 2.7 and Voltaire.

Thats nice. 

As long as we are in the business of making requests of people, I'd like everyone to wait to share their opinions until Lekkit puts out his stance first.

I strongly agree with e on this one. I mean, Lekkit has been lurking pretty much the whole game--I don't see why we should follow this until he says what he thinks first. If he's gonna claim PR, I'm leaning scum on him.
Chairs lurked a ton and ended up being a PR, I don't know if Lekkit has the same meta (I don't think so). But if he's gonna claim, I see this as a piggyback on the whole "lurk as a PR thing" where he's hoping to get treated the same as Chairs.

[Teproc]

Lekkit is pretty likely going to claim a PR with some kind of result once everyone has said what they think of e and Voltaire (that's how I read his post anyway). The thing is, there's not a lot of benefit in not cooperating if you're town. You'll have to give your opinion on people at some point anyway. The benefit scum!Lekkit could get here is shaping his results depending on what town wants to believe, but we can figure that out later, can't we ? ON the other hand, if you're town and Lekkit is indeed a PR with some kind of useful result, your refusal to cooperate will only help scum in hiding among town because we don't have full info.

So I think everyone should give their opinion and we'll see why Lekkit is making us do this, and then we'll judge if he had a good reason.

[2.71828.....]

So, Lekkit, you were saying....?

We are at a tricky point in the game right now as far as claiming goes.  As I mentioned earlier, I think that we have either 1 PR or 3 PRs remaining.  I do not think a SK exists, so the most likely situations are as follows (crossed off and made small font the ones I think are unlikely/impossible):

TTTTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Serial Killer
TTTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver
TTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Serial Killer
I R ? T T T T = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT (Roleblock, Ninja Kill, Strongman Kill)
TTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer
I R ? ? ? T T = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT
T = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer
0 Ts = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT

I think scum are in a great position to fakeclaim.  I do not think we (as town) need to base any lynch decisions on evidence given in a supposed claim.  Suppose we rolled 3 PRs.  We have one (unconfirmed) power left.  Scum could easily make us think that we rolled 5 PRs through fakeclaiming stuff.  We just have to be really good at scum hunting and not really too much on PR information.

[Teproc]

So, people who haven't weighed in on Voltaire/2.7 :
- Robz
- Ichimaru

Interesting that 2.7 is trying to discredit Lekkit's claim before it happens. Scum is in great position to fakeclaim ? It depends on what they're fakeclaiming, so I'd wait to see what the claim actually is (assuming that's what's going on) before passing judgement on it.

[Robz888]

So, people who haven't weighed in on Voltaire/2.7 :
- Robz
- Ichimaru

I did. I weighed in on them before I was even asked to do so. Not specifically them, just everyone.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So here are my reads on Voltaire/2.7

Voltaire: I have a mild town-read on him at this point. Near the end (actually even before that), Ash seemed really sure Voltaire was scum. But he felt the same way about Faust, and vice-versa. At least from my experience in this game, I don't put much stock in the reads of dead townies. It seems like Volt's been genuinely scumhunting--which is more than a lot of people have been doing this game. And it seems like he's a lot more focused on reading others then defending himself--which reads pretty townie to me.

2.7: I really don't remember much of the early D1 case against him. Yuma mentioned how he upped his post-count immediately after being called on it. But then he had said he would be busy the first week--so that makes sense. And he's been contributing quite a bit since then. Still, there are a couple of things, "the best mislynch", and others, that give me pause.

How many games has 2.7 played on this forum? If I'm not mistaken, he's relatively new as well.

At any rate, the contradictory flavor-claim and Ash's flip are kind of confusing to me. So my read on 2.7 is still tentative until that is worked out. For now, mildly scummy.

[Teproc]

"the best mislynch" ? Isn't that something that faust said, rather than 2.7 ? And yeah, he's relatively new, this is his third game I believe, the second one still ongoing. Same for me in that regard.

[Ichimaru Gin]

"the best mislynch" ? Isn't that something that faust said, rather than 2.7 ? And yeah, he's relatively new, this is his third game I believe, the second one still ongoing. Same for me in that regard.

No, you're right, it was Faust that said that.

Rereading. Now I see that some of e's scumminess came from him taking credit for Eevee's death.

This

2.7 : Flavour claims too early, which I don't like at all. Same question as for ashersky as far as his flavour goes. What really gets me is the faust vote. I have a votes summary whrere I write down reasons, and here I wrote "Unclear why". That's already bad, but there were plenty of those in this game (looking at you, Voltaire). The problem is he then acts as if he had built an incredibly strong case on faust, so much so that he wants everyone to respond to it. There's nothing to respond too ! All you have is "I can't shake the feeling faust is scum." That's fine, but it's not actually a case. Which is exactly his objection to faust's case on ash. So yeah.

Actually, I've talked myself into a vote: 2.7 here. Summaries are scumhuntaries !

And This

I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything.

I feel a lot like this right now. I have been super quiet, and I apologize. I will look to post a lot more in the coming days, but have been busy with work doing a bunch of short trips that take me away from my computer. I mean there was the whole claim thing (which I was right about, even if you do not think I should have claimed when I did) then we all kinds of for to a point of "let's not talk about this anymore" then the chairs thing, but not much else. I am pretty busy tonight and tomorrow but I will put some real effort into getting some reads Sunday. But I just feel as if there isn't a whole lot to go off of.

I guess I should do a random drawing them just tunnel the person I draw if nothing else happens.



(For the sake of clarity, that was a joke)

This was before Yuma's post count and calling me out on it.  I guess I sort of followed my joke about picking someone to tunnel, but varied from the joke in that it was not a random "draw out of the hat" tunnel.  It was because in my reread he was the one who came up scummiest.  And we had to start somewhere

Does this feel like an attempt to justify behavior by manipulating his own quote to make it look like something that it wasn't originally?

When I first saw the quote he is presenting I thought it was a sarcastic rewrite--and valid  rewrite--of Robz's post saying basically that "there wasn't anything to comment on except for a whole bunch of stuff... I mean he even calls it a joke in that post

But now 2.7 is saying that it was a post that he wrote showing that he wasn't posting very much and that it woke him up, not my post count saying that he wasn't posting much...

This looks like a stretch to me. a scummy stretch vote: 2.7

These I think are some of relevant posts in the e case. Does anyone know when mcmc will be back?

[Lekkit]

I'm Xiaqiao. Town Hider. I've hid behind 2.7 and Voltaire. In that order. They are both town.

[Teproc]

Interesting.

I'm inclined to believe the claim. Scum could do it for credit (they know who's town and who's not so it's pretty easy) but that creates too many ICs for scum to be comfortable if the scum is believed. That's my first reaction at least.

Besides, this is such an awesome claim if it's true, as it narrows down our lynch pool considerably.

[liopoil]

fabulous, I believe it. let's not lynch any of those three.

[mcmcsalot]

Mod error has infact occured.

 Ashersky was Zhang Fei, a Vanilla Townie

He was not Zhuge Liang.
I apologize for the mistake. I have a huge list of available flavor names for this battle, for when I was working out what flavor would be in the game, I simply transferred my notes wrong from the Qt.
I am not confirming whether Zhuge Liang has or has not been assigned to anyone, he was simply at the battle and therefor an available flavor name.

[Lekkit]

I'm going to bed now. I'll be back tomorrow as I have two days off!

[Voltaire]

I'm Xiaqiao. Town Hider. I've hid behind 2.7 and Voltaire. In that order. They are both town.

Complete belief of this claim. Why, as scum, take two likely lynch candidates off the table? Only if one is your partner, I guess. I know I'm town, so I find this quite unlikely.

[mail-mi]

I'm Xiaqiao. Town Hider. I've hid behind 2.7 and Voltaire. In that order. They are both town.

Okay. Between this and mod error, I think e is town now.

[2.71828.....]

I'm Xiaqiao. Town Hider. I've hid behind 2.7 and Voltaire. In that order. They are both town.

I actually believe this claim.  As I was writing out my post about the possibility of scum fake-claiming I realized that this is absolutely the only role that town could have any useful information from.  The way in which Lekkit claimed also seems towny to me.

So my lynch pool for today is now out of the following people (3 of whom I believe to be scum):

Robz888
mail-mi
Yuma
Ichimaru Gin
Liopoil
Teproc

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well if either/both 2.7 or Voltaire are town--I can see how the claim would look very legitimate from their point of view.
I think I believe Lekkit, as I felt somewhat townie on both of them anyway. Particularly now that the flavor thing has been resolved.
However, I can also see scum playing the angle of making a claim that appears to make things a lot easier for town--especially with how up in the air everything has been. This also has the benefit of scum outing themselves from the lynch pool.
It could be a Lekkit + 2.7/Voltaire scumteam, but I'm not really thinking so right now.

So assuming Lekkit's claim is true, my lynch pool is now.

Robz

mail-mi

Yuma

Liopoil

Teproc

I felt Lekkit was pretty scummy before his claim though, so not completely sold. If it is true though, it effectively cuts the lynch pool down to 6 total, 5 for each player. That's like a 33% decrease in the size of the lynch pool. So if there are 3 scum, our odds are now about 50% of hitting them. So this effectively increases our odds of lynching scum by 17%.

[Voltaire]

Yeah, this is awesome. Long-awaited re-read tomorrow I hope?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yeah, this is awesome. Long-awaited re-read tomorrow I hope?

Directed to me I'm guessing?
For sure. It may take me a little while, but if Lekkit is correct, this could put a lot of things in a new light.
I was kinda concerned this day was going to end up like the others, but after this, I don't see that happening.

[Voltaire]

Actually, directed to myself.

[liopoil]

hey voltaire, I think now is the time when POE is useful!

My lynchpool is ichimaru gin, robz, mail-mi, yuma, and Teproc. All the scum are in this group! (most likely). We better not mess this up...

a shame lekkit claimed his flavor name, otherwise he could tell us who he's hiding behind by saying "if my flavor name starts with an __ I hide behind __" for every letter, telling us who he hides behind under X.

We've had exactly one claim each day so far.

[Voltaire]

hey voltaire, I think now is the time when POE is useful!

POE is always useful. 

[liopoil]

hey voltaire, I think now is the time when POE is useful!

POE is always useful. 

yes, I know you think that, but this time I agree with you!

[Voltaire]

Here come the summary posts! Green = conf. town, orange = I am treating as town for now.

Voltaire, Robz888, mail-mi, Chairs, Ashersky, Yuma, Ichimaru Gin, Lekkit, Liopoil, Teproc, 2.7, Eevee, Faust

Day 1 Final Vote Count
2.7... (1): Robz
Eevee (3):  2.7..., faust, Teproc
liopoil (1): chairs
faust (7): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee, mail-mi
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Day 2 Final Vote Count
ashersky (6): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828, ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

[Voltaire]

Assuming all claims are true:

Mafia has either:
TTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT
TT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT
0 Ts = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT

We can be virtually certain mafia has a JOAT.

Hiding is resolved 2nd in the resolution, so there is no way for mafia to toy with hiding. If Lekkit is telling the truth, e and I have to both be conf. town. There's no scenario where Lekkit is town, I am town, and e is scum, for example. Lekkit could be fake-claiming, but if he is, he picked at least one town member to clear (myself). Still haven't re-read yet, but I don't see why mafia would claim to take a lynch candidate off the table. Basically, I think that Lekkit and e have to be of the same alignment and I currently think that alignment is town.

I am toying with mass claiming. Any thoughts?

[Voltaire]

This [faust] wagon has three phases:
Phase 1: pre-claim.  Ashersky, 2.7, and Lekkit are the only three who vote Faust at this time.

Just pointing things out as I find them. Looks like scum did not jump over faust early. Not sure what that means, but worth noting.

[2.71828.....]

I don't necessarily think claiming will do us too much good.  I actually think that it is very likely that Lekkit was our last PR and that we are dealing with 2 goons and a JOAT (which doesn't do scum any good so in essence another goon)

If one more person claims PR, then I think we need a mass claim, but other than that I don't think we should out the other possible PRs that we have (however unlikely it is that we have more PRs.  No results from N1 or N2 until Lekkit claimed.  I mean, we might have a doctor or something, but I don't think it would be useful for a doctor to claim unless brought to L-1 (and then in that case we would want the next claim as well)

[Teproc]

What was the other wagon at the time ? liopoil right ? Maybe that's where they were. Looking at my lynch pool, I'm reminded Robz pushed the "partner defense" of Ichimaru, and it was already somewhat weird that he didn't find him scummy for playing up the newb card day 1. I think looking at scumteams can actually be viable with such a small lynch pool (with so many scum in it), but I'll need to reread to see if that particular one holds up.

Trying to think about what a massclaim would do right now, but the setup makes it hard to know what we should do.

[Teproc]

Why couldn't Lekkit pick his two partners in a fakeclaim ?

Massclaiming seems... interesting. We know (assuming we believe Lekkit's claim) this about the setup : IHRXXXX. Serial Killer looks very unlikely, so we're either dealing with 4,2 or 0 Ts. 0 Ts is pretty crazy probability wise, so probably 4 or 2 Ts. If it's 4, there are no other PRs, if it's 2 we still have two.

Problem is, mafia knows better than us. Assuming we don't have a Serial Killer, if they don't have a Bus Driver, they know they can fakeclaim whatever the hell they want. So massclaiming might be dangerous.

By the way, could a Bus Driver mess with Lekkit's hiding without him knowing ?

[Voltaire]

Why couldn't Lekkit pick his two partners in a fakeclaim ?

Because I'm town, so I know he didn't. I know you can't know that, but I can. That's why I'm not even considering it.

[2.71828.....]

Order of operations for night resolution is as follows:
Commuting
Hiding
Bus Driving
Jailkeeping / Roleblocking
Protecting
Killing
Investigating

So bus driving does not mess up hiding

[Voltaire]

By the way, could a Bus Driver mess with Lekkit's hiding without him knowing ?

No.

Order of operations for night resolution is as follows:
Commuting
Hiding
Bus Driving
Jailkeeping / Roleblocking
Protecting
Killing
Investigating

[Voltaire]

So Teproc is currently my top scum candidate, but that means we had town (ash) vs. scum (Teproc) wagons yesterday. I'm re-reading how those votes went down to see if that's plausible.

[Voltaire]

Problem is, mafia knows better than us. Assuming we don't have a Serial Killer, if they don't have a Bus Driver, they know they can fakeclaim whatever the hell they want. So massclaiming might be dangerous.

It forces them to decide if they're going to fakeclaim or not. If they know there are 2 other PRs out there, they have to deal with whether to fakeclaim and let us lynch amongst claimants, or not and let us lynch among VTs (there's WIFOM in each scenario, but the point is it would force them to make a choice).

It might not be the right call. But we're close enough to where we need to think about it.

[Teproc]

Well if there are 2 PRs out there I think massclaiming is the right call, but otherwise I don't think it is. Given that no one else has come forward, I'm thinking that no PRs is a little more likely.

And come on Voltaire, you know I'm not scum. I thought you could read me like a book or something to that effect ? What's the case against me again, that I'm hedgy and I unvoted after Ichimaru made a good case against me ?

[Voltaire]

And come on Voltaire, you know I'm not scum. I thought you could read me like a book or something to that effect ? What's the case against me again, that I'm hedgy and I unvoted after Ichimaru made a good case against me ?

Yup, I can, don't think I've ever been wrong about you so far. No, that's not my case against you. It's a gut feel I'll articulate after I'm done re-reading the middle/end of yesterday. I want to figure out if it's plausible you're scum since you were the other lynch candidate vs. ash. If that feels like 2 town wagons, I'll have taken someone else out of the lynch pool. That's what I'm hoping for, we'll see.

[Voltaire]

vote: liopoil as a happy placeholder. Still re-reading, this thread is massive. Good job there scum!

[Teproc]

Why are you voting liopoil as a placeholder if I'm your top scum read ?

[Voltaire]

Why are you voting liopoil as a placeholder if I'm your top scum read ?

Because I just read yuma's D2 case on him and I really like it.

[Voltaire]

Votes on Teproc
a history

Day 1: none
Day 2: Ichi, yuma, chairs, mail-mi

That's it.

mcmc, there are two Vote Count 2.6's. Can we get the second one changed to 2.7 like it should have been (or at least amended to 2.6.2 or something)? The second one was the last vote count of the day so this shouldn't mess anything up.

[Voltaire]

Day 1 Final Vote Count
2.7... (1): Robz
Eevee (3):  2.7..., faust, Teproc
liopoil (1): chairs
faust (7): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee, mail-mi
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Day 2 Final Vote Count
ashersky (6): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828, ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

So what common links do we have?

Alive players on both lynches: Lekkit, liopoil
Alive players off both lynches: Teproc

[Voltaire]

Still not done re-reading but as of right now (this will probably change), sorting my lynch candidates I have:

Want to lynch: lio, Teproc
Would lynch: Robz, mail-mi
Don't want to lynch: yuma, Ichimaru
Won't lynch: Lekkit, e

[Teproc]

I don't know if you should have done this Volt.

I think ICs (and that's how I'm treating Volt, 2.7 and Lekkit going forward, for today at least) shouldn't be as open about their intentions because it makes it easier for scum to figure out who's lynchable and who's not.

[yuma]

I'm really sorry guys... this game like has a curse placed on it for me and my fam as we are all still sick (this is the third time! in a month). I think I'll be a bit more active than the last few times as I am currently in my off week at work, but that moment isn't right now. I was just getting on to check in on the game I am modding and then back to bed with either me or my wife (the other one gets to hold the sick baby!)

So I'll be back, hopefully today.

[Teproc]

By the way, something that makes Lekkit's claim particularly believeable is that there can only be one Hider in this setup, so it's a much riskier claim than, say, Tracker or Doctor, because you take the risk of being counterclaimed by the real Hider if he exists.

[Voltaire]

I don't know if you should have done this Volt.

I think ICs (and that's how I'm treating Volt, 2.7 and Lekkit going forward, for today at least) shouldn't be as open about their intentions because it makes it easier for scum to figure out who's lynchable and who's not.

So you are admitting the three of us are ICs now? I'm having trouble following your stances here. You'll note that I'm willing to lynch all 6 other players right now, just to varying degrees. I'm not even done re-reading yet, I'm sure that's going to shift. Generally ICs should hold back, yes.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 3.1

teproc (1): mail-mi
liopoil (1): Voltaire

Not Voting (7): teproc, Robz, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828, Ichimaru Gin, yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 15th at 8 pm

[Teproc]

How are my stances hard to follow ? I've been clear in my belief of Lekkit's claim, haven't I ?

[Voltaire]

How are my stances hard to follow ? I've been clear in my belief of Lekkit's claim, haven't I ?

I thought I detected hesitation in you.

This claim, if true, is scum's worst nightmare. All three of us were possible mislynch candidates today, now off the table. Scum has GOT to try to stop that from happening.

[Voltaire]

unvote. Forgot that lio did the whole "e's flavor" thing.

[Voltaire]

I think we should, at the very least, claim kingdoms (whether your flavor name is red or green). Mafia is blue so they have to lie.

Lekkit/myself should go last.

[Teproc]

Seems safe enough. I'm Wu, ie the red faction.

[liopoil]

I'm red faction too. At least, that's the color my PM is in. Not often you can admit to having a red PM in a game.

[Robz888]

I'm Kingdom of Wu, the red faction.

Lekkit's claim puts us back in the game... I think. We should not write him off as scum, though. I think he could have anticipated getting heat today--he was sort of the least scrutinized player--and planned to do this claim, probably along with ONE of his partners. (With zero of his partners would be pretty bad for the team, with TWO of the partners very nice if it pays off but probably risky.) With one, you know you're very likely to get the oher guy, a townie, on your side.  I could see scum!Lekkit doing this if his partner is one of Voltaire/2.7 and then like, the least likely person to be lynched from the other pool, maybe yuma.

Well, okay, this would mean Voltaire or 2.7 would be scum. I do think 2.7 seems less likely to be scum because of the mod error, though, and Voltaire has been my strongest town read.

I mean, if Lekkit is scum, this move just won the game. But we might be in the position where we can't really afford to play like that's what happened, if we think it's the less likely thing. It's probably the less likely thing.

Okay, who does this leave? Yuma, mail-mi, Teproc, Ichimaru, liopoil... What a nicely smaller pool.

[Voltaire]

And Teproc makes a good point that claiming Hider is incredibly risky, relative to other claims. And if Lekkit is lying, scum knows town has at least 1 more real PR out there, maybe 3 more.

Yeah, for today, we need to believe the claim 100% I am convinced.

[Robz888]

I think that's probably what we should do, but if you and Lekkit were scum partners that's exactly what you'd say, you know.

[Voltaire]

I think that's probably what we should do, but if you and Lekkit were scum partners that's exactly what you'd say, you know.

Yup. I agree with you.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am from the (red) Kingdom of Wu.
I'll be back from work later today--and probably start on a new reads post.

[mail-mi]

Also red

[yuma]

Getting caught up. I am in the Shu kingdom.

I see that Lekkit has claimed and I for one am not at all surprised that he claimed it. So two things about that.

1. perfect way to use the hider role if it is true, and I think it probably is. Far better than any of those dumb shenanigans of trying to let town know before hand who you were targeting that night. This is how the hider role should be used.

2. up until you said you had something to claim you played it perfect, but after that.... I think you gave away too much there and perhaps allowed mafia to formulate a response about 2.7 and voltaire that would correspond to them anticipating your results. Here is my thought process.... what role would be worth claiming about with information about 2 players that we could possibly have? Not any of the protective (Doc, JK), Tracker either is a positive result or an ambiguous result like chairs had on ashersky, the killing roles have no results to give out, and our rolecop is dead and gunsmith maybe you had results... but the hider claim was so much more likely that I think you totally gave your hand away when you said you had results to claim.... because if I as town saw it, I am sure that mafia also saw it. So I think in looking back at this we should see if we can spot anyone who tried to create reads on voltaire/2.7 that anticipated a hider claim from lekkit... Thoughts?

3. if we mislynch I DO NOT think that lekkit should announce who he is hiding behind. Why? Because if we mislynch today then we are down 1 more town player and if lekkit hides behind the player that mafia kills we lose both and the game is likely over yes? Maybe if we have a vig that isn't completely true, but I noticed 2.7 thinking we are at the end of our PRs coming out, and I think I agree with that. If we lynch correctly... well then maybe there is a utility to Lekkit saying--I haven't thought out that far yet--but we won't know if we lynch correctly or mislynch until we have the flip obviously at the start of night.

4. we have to at least consider lekkit is lying... either as mafia alone and volt and 2.7 are town (unlikely I think) or as mafia with one or both (again unlikely I think) of them as a partner. But I think the way forward is to consider it true and then depending on today and night actions relook at it... mass claiming tomorrow? is that a good idea to do tomorrow? will probably help as well determine the truthfulness of his claim.

this might be my only post for today. hopefully I can get on later, but at this point I don't know if I will be able to do so.

[yuma]

one other point really quick. could i ask lekkit to provide reasoning for why he hid behind volt and 2.7 the first thing when he comes on, just so it is on record?

[Robz888]

one other point really quick. could i ask lekkit to provide reasoning for why he hid behind volt and 2.7 the first thing when he comes on, just so it is on record?

Yes, he should do this.

[Voltaire]

I mean, Lekkit also choosing to hide behind e and myself makes sense through his reads (still on D1 after re-reading the end of D2 earlier).

[Voltaire]

So Teproc is currently my top scum candidate, but that means we had town (ash) vs. scum (Teproc) wagons yesterday. I'm re-reading how those votes went down to see if that's plausible.

I would love to hear other's take on this.

[Voltaire]

Everyone has kingdom claimed except for myself and Lekkit now.

I'm Wu (red).

[Teproc]

So, we have :

Wu : Voltaire, Robz, mail-mi, Ichimaru, liopoil, Teproc
Shu : faust, Eevee, ashersky, chairs, 2.7 yuma

? : Lekkit

I'm assuming 2.7 is Zhuge Liang and, according to Wikipedia, he was Shu.

Considering this :

That sounds.. very hard for scum that doesn't know the show (game?).

Jeez people, everything will be explained.

Pm's are going out, and hopefully you learned from last time don't freak out when you get a colored Pm, The Battle of the Red Cliffs is the showdown between the massive Wei army(Bad Guys!), against the combined forces of the Wu naval fleet(Good Guys!) and some Shu officers(also good guys!)

Even assuming Lekkit is Wu, isn't that a lot of Shu ? Maybe I'm misreading mcmc's post, but I assumed there would be significantly more Shu than Wu.

[Teproc]

Ok, I might have made some mistakes. I assumed everyone who died so far was Shu because they flipped green, but it looks like Lu Meng (faust) was Wu so I'll have to check those by name.

[Voltaire]

Even assuming Lekkit is Wu, isn't that a lot of Shu ? Maybe I'm misreading mcmc's post, but I assumed there would be significantly more Shu than Wu.

Well, that's clearly wrong. Some of these are flips!

[Voltaire]

Ok, I might have made some mistakes. I assumed everyone who died so far was Shu because they flipped green, but it looks like Lu Meng (faust) was Wu so I'll have to check those by name.

Oh. Yuck.

[Robz888]

I can help with this, but I don't have any time right now. Lu Meng is Wu, Zheng Fei is Shu, Zhuge Liang is Shu.

There were more Wu officers in the battle than Shu officers, but there were plenty of both, so I would either expect a split in Wu's favor, or roughly equal. (There's some difference depending on the source: the game's battle has tons of both; the novel's battle is mostly wu with some shu; and the real history battle was really a wu thing with slight help from shu.)

[Teproc]

Again I'm trusting Wikipedia on these :

Wu : faust, Eevee, Voltaire, Robz, mail-mi, Ichimaru, liopoil, Teproc
Shu : ashersky, chairs, 2.7 yuma

? : Lekkit

This looks more logical. I still think yuma come out looking slightly scummy here because I assume scum would claim 2 Wu and 1 Shu if they didn't have fakeclaims, since that would be the average ratio according to mcmc's post I just quoted.

Then again, maybe scum does have fakeclaim and they all happen to be Wu. Still, I do think this makes yuma slightly more likely to be scum.

[Teproc]

Alternatively, if Robz is right and the split is supposed to be about even in Wu's favor, this means yuma is less suspect. Ugh. I guess we don't get much out of this then.

[Robz888]

The above split looks perfectly plausible to me.

[Voltaire]

I guess we don't get much out of this then.

It tells us scum were prepared for this. Everyone answered, like, immediately.

[Lekkit]

My text is red, so I assume Wu.

[Teproc]

The above split looks perfectly plausible to me.

It shouldn't though, should it ? We know for a fact 3 people are lying. If the split looks plausible, that means scum is 2 Wu, 1 Shu.

Does that make sense ?

[Lekkit]

I hid behind 2.7 first night since he was my top town read. Voltaire due to me being very unsure about anyone being town after two crazy days. So I trusted other peoples' reads and went for it. I almost did not hide, but I figured we needed something to go on.

[Voltaire]

Thoughts on lynch candidates:

I see no reason to be anything but exactly null on yuma.
There is 1 player among the 6 candidates I am going to take out of the pool (it's not yuma, obviously).
As a result, I think I am going to have the same 3/5 odds of lynching scum today as anyone outside of the e/Lekkit/Volt trio.

[Robz888]

The above split looks perfectly plausible to me.

It shouldn't though, should it ? We know for a fact 3 people are lying. If the split looks plausible, that means scum is 2 Wu, 1 Shu.

Does that make sense ?

But I think it would look just as plausible, if you flipped a Wu and a Shu.

[Voltaire]

But I think it would look just as plausible, if you flipped a Wu and a Shu.

So 2-3 scum among the Wu?

[Robz888]

But I think it would look just as plausible, if you flipped a Wu and a Shu.

So 2-3 scum among the Wu?

Well, most likely yes, but most likely only because most of our remaining suspects (if we rule out Lekkit and co) are Wu. I don't think flavor distribution is going to help us find scum, because there are many justifiable ways to do it. Does that make sense?

[Voltaire]

Does that make sense?

I think so.

Just trying to determine plausibility of Robz/yuma/X scumteam and if they'd freak in this situation.

[Teproc]

That's what I was thinking about as well, but I guess we can just come back to that if Robz or yuma flips scum at some point.

[Robz888]

Oh, but, so, scum probably just have to have fake claims, or else what would they do in this position? They would have to probably just pick obscure Wu and Shu generals that were unlikely to get assigned to real townies, and if that's the case we can catch them on mass flavor claim, they are just the most obscure ones.*

*Well, not exactly, because I'd be the judge of obscurity, and I'm not an IC to the rest of you.

I mean, on the off chance this is the case, we should just straight-up flavor claim, as I advocated on Day 1. Like I said then, I doubt it will help, but I can't imagine a scenario where it hurts.

[Teproc]

I'm fine with this but I guess I'll wait to see what the psuedo-ICs have to say about it. It seems pretty clear that flavour is not indicative of PRness, so it's fine.

The only downside is the whole "announce who I'm targeting through my flavor name" thing, but is there any PR left that it would be relevant for ? Jailkeeper maybe ?

[Voltaire]

Peak of the D1 lio wagon, fyi:

Vote Count 1.9

很有意思

2.7... (2): Teproc, yuma
faust (1): ashersky
mail-mi (1): Voltaire
Voltaire (2): mail-mi, Lekkit
liopoil (5): Robz888, Eevee，chairs, faust, Ichimaru Gin {L-2}

Not Voting (2):liopoil, 2.7....

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on December, 19 at 2:00 p.m. Forum time.

[liopoil]

I mean, on the off chance this is the case, we should just straight-up flavor claim, as I advocated on Day 1. Like I said then, I doubt it will help, but I can't imagine a scenario where it hurts.

I thought they likely indirectly indicated role?

[liopoil]

does lekkit's role indicate hider?

[Teproc]

Robz said that, so far, they haven't been indicative (chairs was the example I think).

Now trusting Robz might be dangerous, but it was pretty much the conclusion we came to at the end of the day 1 conversation anyway, right ? I also don't think Robz would outright lie about the flavor, seems a little dangerous if someone decides to suddenly do a bit of research.

[2.71828.....]

I do not think that flavor has direct correlation to role.  I think it has a direct correlation to alignment.  Claiming army is also useless.  Flip a coin, oh I am Wu (or Shu).  If we are serious about claiming flavor we should actually claim flavor.

[Robz888]

I mean, on the off chance this is the case, we should just straight-up flavor claim, as I advocated on Day 1. Like I said then, I doubt it will help, but I can't imagine a scenario where it hurts.

I thought they likely indirectly indicated role?

I think at this point it's not possible to tell whether they very very very inidrectly indicate role, or not at all.

[Robz888]

does lekkit's role indicate hider?

I don't know, he hasn't said his flavor name.

[2.71828.....]

I'm Xiaqiao. Town Hider. I've hid behind 2.7 and Voltaire. In that order. They are both town.

[Voltaire]

vote: mail-mi

It's worth noting that lio and Teproc have had big wagons run up on them. Of our 6 lynch candidates, that's 2. Makes it decent odds that we ran up a wagon on scum at one point. Still want feedback on what everyone things about Teproc having been the alternative to ash and what that says about his alignment.

[liopoil]

vote: mail-mi

It's worth noting that lio and Teproc have had big wagons run up on them. Of our 6 lynch candidates, that's 2. Makes it decent odds that we ran up a wagon on scum at one point. Still want feedback on what everyone things about Teproc having been the alternative to ash and what that says about his alignment.

is there a connection between the vote on mail-mi and the text? what's the reason for the vote?

I don't think Teproc being the alternative to ash speaks to his alignment. When things like that do speak to someone's alignment, it's usually because their scumbuddies pushed the other wagon through. In this case, I know I heavily supported the ash wagon, and so did voltaire, who is probably town too. So I don't think it means much.

[Voltaire]

vote: mail-mi

It's worth noting that lio and Teproc have had big wagons run up on them. Of our 6 lynch candidates, that's 2. Makes it decent odds that we ran up a wagon on scum at one point. Still want feedback on what everyone things about Teproc having been the alternative to ash and what that says about his alignment.

is there a connection between the vote on mail-mi and the text? what's the reason for the vote?

I don't think Teproc being the alternative to ash speaks to his alignment. When things like that do speak to someone's alignment, it's usually because their scumbuddies pushed the other wagon through. In this case, I know I heavily supported the ash wagon, and so did voltaire, who is probably town too. So I don't think it means much.

No, they're not related. As far as the ash wagon goes, of course it had town on it! There are only three scum in this game. So what do you think about it? Can we learn anything about Teproc's alignment?

Basically, I am noticing lio buddying me. That is not necessarily a scum tell. But I want to get this lynch right because it put us back in the game and scum has got to be just gut-punched by this turn of events.

Day 2 Final Vote Count
ashersky (6): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828, ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

[Voltaire]

Robz has been doing this to me, too. Red flags have been going off ever since

2) protects teproc, who I believe is town

Trust me, I've noticed Robz being reasonable and helpful. I'm wondering now. But I want your flip first.

I can say the same about you, though.

[liopoil]

As far as the ash wagon goes, of course it had town on it! There are only three scum in this game. So what do you think about it? Can we learn anything about Teproc's alignment?

Basically, I am noticing lio buddying me. That is not necessarily a scum tell. But I want to get this lynch right because it put us back in the game and scum has got to be just gut-punched by this turn of events.

Day 2 Final Vote Count
ashersky (6): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828, ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

buddying? what, you mean the thing about POE?

Well, looking at the ash wagon there... I'm town, ash is town, Voltaire, e, and lekkit are probably all town, so really, are you saying that Teproc is scummy for being the other wagon than the one which scum!robz pushed? let's just lynch robz then!

So no, I still don't think it speaks to his alignment, because the only way that it might implicate him is if scum!robz pushed the ash wagon to save Teproc. And really, robz was on the ash wagon before the Teproc wagon, right?

[Voltaire]

So no, I still don't think it speaks to his alignment, because the only way that it might implicate him is if scum!robz pushed the ash wagon to save Teproc. And really, robz was on the ash wagon before the Teproc wagon, right?

Yup.

So doesn't that mean Teproc is probably town from your point of view? Because scum didn't need to drive another wagon, they could let those two sit and whichever it was was fine with them. And those two wagons did percolate for an awfully long time.

[Voltaire]

buddying? what, you mean the thing about POE?

You've defended me all game. If you're scum, it was for town cred. If you're town, it's because you have a good read.

Really I'm just darn excited by how well we seem to be doing now.

[Voltaire]

Day 1 Final Vote Count
2.7... (1): Robz
Eevee (3):  2.7..., faust, Teproc
liopoil (1): chairs
faust (7): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee, mail-mi
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Also lio, if you're town, this means that mail-mi is the only possible scum who could have received a vote in the final tally. What do you think about that?

[Robz888]

I'm Xiaqiao. Town Hider. I've hid behind 2.7 and Voltaire. In that order. They are both town.

My mistake. Xiao Qiao is the wife of Zhou Yu, who is Commander-in-Chief of the Wu forces. Her twin sister is Da Qiao. They are known througout the land for their beauty.

Xiao Qiao knew Cao Cao, evil ruler of Wei, when they were both children. Legend states that he was still in love with her, and wished to take her and her sister back to his city after the battle, and put lock them inside a tower.

In the novel, Zhuge Liang, the Shu strategist, tricked Zhou Yu into supporting the war against Cao Cao by telling him that Cao Cao desired his wife, Xiao Qiao. From that moment on, Zhou Yu sweared that either he would die, or Cao Cao would die.

I'm not sure I see Hider in there anyway, but Xiao Qiao is more a Hider than a Role Cop or something, I guess.

[Robz888]

Robz has been doing this to me, too. Red flags have been going off ever since

2) protects teproc, who I believe is town

Trust me, I've noticed Robz being reasonable and helpful. I'm wondering now. But I want your flip first.

I can say the same about you, though.

What have I been doing to you?

[Voltaire]

What have I been doing to you?

Buddying while setting yourself up to have a scum read on me if I ever have a scum read on you.

[liopoil]

Oh, well yeah, I had a town read on you. Should I pretend to have an incorrect scumread next time?

So no, I still don't think it speaks to his alignment, because the only way that it might implicate him is if scum!robz pushed the ash wagon to save Teproc. And really, robz was on the ash wagon before the Teproc wagon, right?

Yup.

So doesn't that mean Teproc is probably town from your point of view? Because scum didn't need to drive another wagon, they could let those two sit and whichever it was was fine with them. And those two wagons did percolate for an awfully long time.

Oh I didn't think about that at all. wow. yeah, if teproc is scum, that means that at least one of his buddies voted for him yesterday.  Which is pretty plausible I guess, but if it's just one buddy then robz must be scum. Otherwise he has two buddies voting for him. So nevermind, that is pretty big. Town points for Teproc for sure [/buddy]

Day 1 Final Vote Count
2.7... (1): Robz
Eevee (3):  2.7..., faust, Teproc
liopoil (1): chairs
faust (7): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee, mail-mi
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Also lio, if you're town, this means that mail-mi is the only possible scum who could have received a vote in the final tally. What do you think about that?

It makes me think that we were really bad at this game D1. I think it's possible that we could have only voted for town. Plus, there's a very fair chance that mail-mi is scum.

Vote: Robz I think. If he isn't scum then the ash wagon was pure town, which seems less likely. Also, robz always correctly identifies town!ash (slight exaggeration). But the main reason is the stuff from prior days which hasn't gone away. And gut/POE

So scum to town of my lynchpool:

Robz
mail-mi
yuma: null
Ichimaru Gin
Teproc: He must have been bussed twice if scum and robz town. That's huge.

[liopoil]

Oh and voltaire, you didn't answer what the reason for the mail-mi vote is.

[Robz888]

What have I been doing to you?

Buddying while setting yourself up to have a scum read on me if I ever have a scum read on you.

I think that's what you've done to me. I didn't "set myself up" to do anything.

[Voltaire]

Oh and voltaire, you didn't answer what the reason for the mail-mi vote is.

I want other people to react first. I'm gonna abuse the hell out of this semi-IC status. 

[Voltaire]

I am beginning to get some strong reads. 

[Teproc]

Have you figured out I'm obvtown yet ?

Good. I'm currently rereading, and wondering why we all forgot mail-mi existed during day 2. liopoil is looking townier to me in his search for a wagon day 2 (as in, it's a very explicit and open search for a wagon, as opposed to a mail-mi style sheepfest), so Robz being scum through PoE makes sense as well.

[Voltaire]

So scum to town of my lynchpool:

Robz
mail-mi
yuma: null
Ichimaru Gin
Teproc: He must have been bussed twice if scum and robz town. That's huge.

I request that everyone who is not myself/Lekkit/e post a reads list in this style.

[Robz888]

Vote: Robz I think. If he isn't scum then the ash wagon was pure town, which seems less likely. Also, robz always correctly identifies town!ash (slight exaggeration). But the main reason is the stuff from prior days which hasn't gone away. And gut/POE

It's a large exaggeration. I only ever correctly identify ash because I assume he's town and he's usually town. I think in practice I'm no better and calling him than I am at anyone else, and probably worse.

[Robz888]

Have you figured out I'm obvtown yet ?

I have not, what is the argument for this?

[Teproc]

Voltaire : I haven't reread as thoroughly as I would like to eventually, but so far :

mail-mi : Scumming it up GoT style
Robz : Slight scum for PoE reasons
yuma: Null
Ichimaru : Townish for the way he responded to me day 2
liopoil : Townish for scumhunting attitude day 2

@Robz : Just joking, I saw liopoil and Voltaire saying that I was unlikely to be scum because of the way the wagons broke down so I figured I'd comment on it.

[Robz888]

@Robz : Just joking, I saw liopoil and Voltaire saying that I was unlikely to be scum because of the way the wagons broke down so I figured I'd comment on it.

Yep, I'm asking them to clarify.

[Voltaire]

@Robz : Just joking, I saw liopoil and Voltaire saying that I was unlikely to be scum because of the way the wagons broke down so I figured I'd comment on it.

Yep, I'm asking them to clarify.

Excuse me? I do not currently have a clear opinion on Teproc.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So scum to town of my lynchpool:

Robz
mail-mi
yuma: null
Ichimaru Gin
Teproc: He must have been bussed twice if scum and robz town. That's huge.

I request that everyone who is not myself/Lekkit/e post a reads list in this style.

Ok.

Teproc
mail-mi: It seems like he's almost dropped off the map post-wise. I think there's a good chance he's scum.
Robz: Don't really understand the case on him
Liopoil: null
Yuma: null

Just a head's up. My grandparents are coming over tonight--but I should be able to check in again before I go to bed.

[liopoil]

@Robz : Just joking, I saw liopoil and Voltaire saying that I was unlikely to be scum because of the way the wagons broke down so I figured I'd comment on it.

Yep, I'm asking them to clarify.

Look at the final vote count of yesterday. Assuming we believe lekkit, all of the ash wagon is conf!town except us two. Everyone else except Teproc is voting for Teproc. That means, from my perspective at least, that at least one of his buddies was bussing him yesterday if he is scum, two buddies if you are town as well.

[Teproc]

So scum to town of my lynchpool:

Robz
mail-mi
yuma: null
Ichimaru Gin
Teproc: He must have been bussed twice if scum and robz town. That's huge.

I request that everyone who is not myself/Lekkit/e post a reads list in this style.

Ok.

Teproc
mail-mi: It seems like he's almost dropped off the map post-wise. I think there's a good chance he's scum.
Robz: Don't really understand the case on him
Liopoil: null
Yuma: null

Just a head's up. My grandparents are coming over tonight--but I should be able to check in again before I go to bed.

Come on, those don't count as reads. That's three null, one scum read because he's not posting and one you're not even commenting on.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So scum to town of my lynchpool:

Robz
mail-mi
yuma: null
Ichimaru Gin
Teproc: He must have been bussed twice if scum and robz town. That's huge.

I request that everyone who is not myself/Lekkit/e post a reads list in this style.

Ok.

Teproc
mail-mi: It seems like he's almost dropped off the map post-wise. I think there's a good chance he's scum.
Robz: Don't really understand the case on him
Liopoil: null
Yuma: null

Just a head's up. My grandparents are coming over tonight--but I should be able to check in again before I go to bed.

Come on, those don't count as reads. That's three null, one scum read because he's not posting and one you're not even commenting on.

2 null. I do not fully understand the case on Robz, but placed him where I believe him to be on my reads list.
I find yuma more towny than liopoil, mail-mi I explained.

I still find you the scummiest for reasons I have stated before. The near complete lack of suspicion, hedging, etc. Lekkit was one of my other top scumreads, but now he's basically an IC. I don't feel that strongly about most of the people left in the lynch pool at this point. Liopoil got some early suspicion if I remember, but not really any since then. Mail-mi, same thing, and now that he's posting so little, I have even less of a read on him. Robz has been very helpful with the flavor, but I agree with you that it makes me a little concerned that he is basically the only player that knows much about it.

Voltaire mentioned how massive this thread has gotten, so it takes a fair bit of work to go through and reread. I'll probably do one tomorrow at some point though. As I'm pretty shot from work right now.

Someone (voltaire?), mentioned something about doing some analysis on possible scumteams. I think this could be very helpful considering how small the lynch pool is now.

[Teproc]

For some reason I didn't get these were in order of scumminess. That makes more sense.

I don't think "near complete lack of suspicion" really counts anymore though, I was the main alternative to the ash lynch on day 2. If you want to see lack of suspicion, look at yuma, I don't think he's gotten a vote all game (not that I think it's actually scummy to go unsuspected).

[liopoil]

I find yuma more towny than liopoil

that's not null

[Ichimaru Gin]

I find yuma more towny than liopoil

that's not null

Degrees of nullness. The slight difference is just reflected in the order.

[liopoil]

I only ever correctly identify ash because I assume he's town and he's usually town. I think in practice I'm no better and calling him than I am at anyone else, and probably worse.

Well, when I read this I had a 'that's ridiculous!' moment and went to go pull quotes from a zillion different games, but only found a couple. So, never mind then.

[Ichimaru Gin]

For some reason I didn't get these were in order of scumminess. That makes more sense.

I don't think "near complete lack of suspicion" really counts anymore though, I was the main alternative to the ash lynch on day 2. If you want to see lack of suspicion, look at yuma, I don't think he's gotten a vote all game (not that I think it's actually scummy to go unsuspected).

Ok.
No, you're right, Yuma has received very little suspicion. And doing a search, the only vote he received was a RVS vote from Ashersky. It's only one of the reasons why I find you scummy though.
Still, Yuma is worth investigating more. I don't know if people not being suspicious of you is seen as scummy--you at least don't seem to think so.

[liopoil]

I have this just gut suspicion of yuma, but it's not really based off anything tangible. the thing is, there hardly ever is much tangible to suspect him on. And in toy story, I thought that there was, and I invested a lot into him being scum, and was so so so wrong. I'm wary here, but I don't think I'm going to be voting him today. I doubt anyone is going to find a reason to be anything but null on him. that itself may be a sign he's scum, but we just can't lynch people based off that.

[mail-mi]

okay reads:

teproc
ichi
robz
yuma
liopoil.

Am I still voting teproc? I should be. vote: teproc3

oh and sorry, i haen't been paying as much attention to this game as I should, a lot of stuff has been happening lately.

[yuma]

We are back!

Reads atm

lekkit, voltaire, 2.7 all pretty townie

teproc I still think could be scummy, but I want to look more at what liopoil and voltaire have been talking about today.

liopoil i lean a little toward the scummy side

my gut probably says that robz is town (this kinda feels like the robz from Wibbly Wobbly to me), but really that doesn't mean much of anything

mail-mi I could certainly see as scum, he is probably my biggest priority to look at today more in depth

ichimaru... i guess I would put in the middle. I have seen some scummy stuff from him (and voted for it yesterday), but a few people have basically said "that is typical newbie stuff" and written it off... so maybe they are right or are partners trying to protect newbiescum? Worth looking at again, but maybe not my priority for today.

I still need to catch up and look at day2 again as I haven't had a chance to do that yet. I am feeling better, but baby is still sick.

[Voltaire]

okay reads:

teproc
ichi
robz
yuma
liopoil.

Am I still voting teproc? I should be. vote: teproc3

oh and sorry, i haen't been paying as much attention to this game as I should, a lot of stuff has been happening lately.

Please elaborate and give reasons for the rankings, mail-mi.

Only Robz hasn't done one of these so far.

[Robz888]

Extremely busy today, sorry. Um, I haven't done of those? I don't know. I guess mail-mi is the scummiest, but there really isn't anyone in this pool that makes me say "definitely town, do not lynch." I most resistant to lynching Ichimaru, I suppose. Sort of just gut feeling that he is a newbie townie.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 3.2

teproc (1): mail-mi
mail-mi (1): voltaire
Robz888 (1) Liopoil


Not Voting (6): teproc, Robz, Lekkit, 2.71828, Ichimaru Gin, yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 15th at 8 pm

[Voltaire]

Extremely busy today, sorry. Um, I haven't done of those? I don't know. I guess mail-mi is the scummiest, but there really isn't anyone in this pool that makes me say "definitely town, do not lynch." I most resistant to lynching Ichimaru, I suppose. Sort of just gut feeling that he is a newbie townie.

What do you think about lio? Do you think no scum were involved in ash's lynch?

[liopoil]

What about teproc too?

[Robz888]

Extremely busy today, sorry. Um, I haven't done of those? I don't know. I guess mail-mi is the scummiest, but there really isn't anyone in this pool that makes me say "definitely town, do not lynch." I most resistant to lynching Ichimaru, I suppose. Sort of just gut feeling that he is a newbie townie.

What do you think about lio? Do you think no scum were involved in ash's lynch?

On lio, I really thought he was scumm on Day 1, and in some ways he's done exactly what I expect from scum lio (steadily increased participation), but on the other hand--and this is a big thing--my memory is that he has stood up two scrutiny on both Day 1 and Day 2, and that's something that's townie. Or at least something I think is townie. Now, the reaosn I'm hesitant to say this is I'm actually having trouble remembering what's happened in this game (exactly 36 games in is my breaking point I guess), and it could be that lio got less pressure than I remember yesterday.

As for ash's lynch, it was mainly driven by me, who is town, and Voltaire, who I take to be town and am operating under the assumption that he is town for this analysis anyway. So yes, I could see it being all town. Wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened.

What about teproc too?

Teproc, I think got a lot of pressure yesterday, but almost none Day 1, so I wouldn't give him the sort of stamp-of-towniness that lio gets for surviving the pressure.

Mail-mi never got any wagon going against him at all really, desite beingf scummy to at least a few, so that's probably the best bet at the moment.

Yuma has gotten absolutely zero pressure, which is actually very scummy. He's had a much smaller presence than usual too, ostensibly due to VLA.

Ichi I think has gotten a mid amount of scrutiny, more than yuma and mail-mi but less than teproc and liopoil.

[Voltaire]

You think lio was under pressure yesterday?

[mail-mi]

okay reads:

teproc
ichi
robz
yuma
liopoil.

Am I still voting teproc? I should be. vote: teproc3

oh and sorry, i haen't been paying as much attention to this game as I should, a lot of stuff has been happening lately.

Please elaborate and give reasons for the rankings, mail-mi.

Only Robz hasn't done one of these so far.

Teproc: bad voting and day 2 stuff
Ichi: I didnt think so before but he fits  bill for Newbie scum pretty well.
Robz:null
Yuma: hasn't done anything to make me suspicious, but it's yuma so...
Liopoil: same as yuma without the but it's yuma part

[Robz888]

You think lio was under pressure yesterday?

Now, the reaosn I'm hesitant to say this is I'm actually having trouble remembering what's happened in this game (exactly 36 games in is my breaking point I guess), and it could be that lio got less pressure than I remember yesterday.

[Teproc]

Bad voting ? Not being on mislynches is bad now ?

I guess you would say that.

[Voltaire]

In my memory, lio got no pressure at all from anyone but yuma (and I think mail-mi sheeping him) yesterday. In my memory, it never developed into a serious wagon.

[Ichimaru Gin]

okay reads:

teproc
ichi
robz
yuma
liopoil.

Am I still voting teproc? I should be. vote: teproc3

oh and sorry, i haen't been paying as much attention to this game as I should, a lot of stuff has been happening lately.

Please elaborate and give reasons for the rankings, mail-mi.

Only Robz hasn't done one of these so far.

Teproc: bad voting and day 2 stuff
Ichi: I didnt think so before but he fits  bill for Newbie scum pretty well.
Robz:null
Yuma: hasn't done anything to make me suspicious, but it's yuma so...
Liopoil: same as yuma without the but it's yuma part

I'd appreciate at least a word of justification for why you think I'm newbie scum.
This sounds like a 180 to OMGUS, just cause I put you at 2nd scummiest on my list.

[Voltaire]

My gut says lynch Teproc. But my gut is also very hungry.

So, fellow probablyICs e and Lekkit, what do you two think?

[Teproc]

In my memory, lio got no pressure at all from anyone but yuma (and I think mail-mi sheeping him) yesterday. In my memory, it never developed into a serious wagon.

This.

[Robz888]

In my memory, lio got no pressure at all from anyone but yuma (and I think mail-mi sheeping him) yesterday. In my memory, it never developed into a serious wagon.

Okay well I really have to re read but you wanted answers NOW

[Voltaire]

Okay well I really have to re read but you wanted answers NOW

No, not really, but you did show up to give answers NOW the moment you were called out.

[Teproc]

Okay well I really have to re read but you wanted answers NOW

No, not really, but you did show up to give answers NOW the moment you were called out.

Can we stop with that argument ? What do you want people to do, wait a little before they respond to quasi-IC's questions ? That's kinda dumb.

[Voltaire]

Not what I am saying. What I am saying is, Robz posts nothing until he is mentioned. Doesn't mean he's scum.

You have gotten extremely hostile lately, Teproc. That is not normal you.

[2.71828.....]

Sorry, I feel unproductive and not very useful right now.  It has been a hectic IRL day and I don't see things slowing down a lot tomorrow.  I am actually moving Saturday, but hopefully I will have some down time Sunday where I can sit down and get some good reads in.

[Teproc]

Hostile ? I thought I was being light-hearted, but I guess it doesn't come through that way. Sorry then.

[Voltaire]

Hostile ? I thought I was being light-hearted, but I guess it doesn't come through that way. Sorry then.

It's all good. I realized after posting that that what you'd written could be interpreted multiple ways, and I took the non-charitable one. My bad.

[Teproc]

So, here's an interesting exercise. Now that we know that ash was town, how do we think scum reacted to the faust fakeclaim ? They wouldn't have had any reason to disbelieve it, in which case faust was pretty much the best mislynch ever for them. So that's from #806 to #970

I'll look at Ichimaru first, because he's the first of my lynch pool to post in that time frame :

Phone post:

Isn't claiming vengeful normally something that gets you lynched?
So why would Faust claim it?
It's almost like he wants to get lynched.
The whole "this is going nowhere" thing kinda cinches if for me

One thing that strikes me as odd in this post (his first one after the claim) is that first question. As a newbie (that's not meant to be mean by the way, just in case), why would Ichimaru think that claiming Vengeful is something that gets you lynched ? The two I can think of are :
- Ichimaru is Vengeful, so he did some research on how to play the role, and got the idea that it was bad to claim as Vengeful (which might be true, I haven't given it that much thought tbh)
- Ichimaru is scum, and has discussed possible fakeclaims with his partners in the QT.

That's not where I was going with this, but I thought it was worth noting.

Back on track :

I find Faust's claim completely scummy. That, and the fact that he just disappeared after making it. His excuse does not hold up in my mind either.
We need a lynch today, and I think Faust is it.
vote: Faust

So, consistent with the "jumping with glee" approach to the faust fakeclaim.

Looking at Robz next.

[yuma]

My gut says lynch Teproc. But my gut is also very hungry.

vote: no no lunch?

[Teproc]

Robz then.

I'm more likely to think faust is scum post-claim. Vengeful is absolutely the thing scum would claim here. They actually want to proactively claim that if they can, probably. And faust wasn't in any danger, was he? I have to check. If he really, really isn't in any danger, I may actually want to lynch him after all. Yeah.

Yeah, there were only two people voting for him. So he had no reason to claim, but did, in order to put out the kind of claim that scum really really wants to make.

Fausr, do you disagree that that's what you did? We really gotta understand you here, man.

That's his first response (these posts are consecutive). Is Vengeful "absolutely" the thing scum would claim here, really ? I guess it might be, since it can't be proven wrong unless you get lynched/killed, and you can manipulate your reads in interesting ways.

Robz then goes into his plan to make faust stumble on his fakeclaim thanks to mafiascum being down. I'm not sure, but I think this is townie. I think scum wants town to believe faust's claim and lynch him for it, on the basis that if you think either of faust and ashersky is scum, the faust lynch is good for town.

After that, he goes after e for his inconsistency on faust. So yeah, I think Robz's reaction here is very townie actually.

[Teproc]

liopoil's first reactions (again, those are consecutive posts)

before any of us say anything further regarding the claim, I let's have faust fully explain why he claimed, and why he says he will vengekill ashersky no matter what.

talking more will just give scum!faust ideas.

3, there's no way a chairs lynch is happening anyway.

Lastly, it seems that an eevee lynch isn't happening. the other clear options are faust and me, and I don't like either of those options. E now is at 3 votes and I think has a chance of happening, and is suspicious.

I am very, very tempted to vote for e, but the one thing holding me back is your 3. Why would e, as scum, do something as suspicious/crazy as vote for chairs (even if that's good for scum) when it's clear chairs isn't going through?

Also, mail-mi is an option. He may only have two votes but other people have called him scummy as well.

I realize mail-mi is an option, but I don't think he's as scummy as e. re: #3, I don't really think it's that weird. He could honestly think that town could be convinced to lynch chairs. He might be trying to fish for chairs' role.

The first one seems like a pretty standard response to a weird claim, the second reads townie because it's exploring other lynches.*

Then he goes along with Robz's plan by retaining information and discrediting the correct information brought by e and myself.

* Note : I realize that scum could very well assume that faust is going to get lynched and sit on some other wagon to enjoy the town cred, but e was the most likely non-faust lynch at that point, so I feel safe giving some credit to Robz and liopoil for going after e at that point.

Except he then votes faust (4) :

faust was active again at 17:22 forum time...

I'll go ahead and Vote: faust now. Worst case scenario his explanation is good and I unvote, so yeah, why not vote now.

He's still going after faust hard in #966.

Put him in the "jumping with glee" category as well then. He does have that one post still enquiring about other lynches, but he's pretty clearly pushing for faust after that. As I said earlier, I do think the Robz plan was a somewhat townie response (since I think scum would want faust's claim to be believed), so his participation in that does look good.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So, here's an interesting exercise. Now that we know that ash was town, how do we think scum reacted to the faust fakeclaim ? They wouldn't have had any reason to disbelieve it, in which case faust was pretty much the best mislynch ever for them. So that's from #806 to #970

I'll look at Ichimaru first, because he's the first of my lynch pool to post in that time frame :

Phone post:

Isn't claiming vengeful normally something that gets you lynched?
So why would Faust claim it?
It's almost like he wants to get lynched.
The whole "this is going nowhere" thing kinda cinches if for me

One thing that strikes me as odd in this post (his first one after the claim) is that first question. As a newbie (that's not meant to be mean by the way, just in case), why would Ichimaru think that claiming Vengeful is something that gets you lynched ? The two I can think of are :
- Ichimaru is Vengeful, so he did some research on how to play the role, and got the idea that it was bad to claim as Vengeful (which might be true, I haven't given it that much thought tbh)
- Ichimaru is scum, and has discussed possible fakeclaims with his partners in the QT.

That's not where I was going with this, but I thought it was worth noting.

Back on track :

I find Faust's claim completely scummy. That, and the fact that he just disappeared after making it. His excuse does not hold up in my mind either.
We need a lynch today, and I think Faust is it.
vote: Faust

So, consistent with the "jumping with glee" approach to the faust fakeclaim.

Looking at Robz next.

The way Faust handled his claim and the subsequent "Oh I lied so that there would be something to analyze". Was just plain scummy. All that means is that almost everyone ended up wanting to lynch him--town and scum albeit for different reasons. I thought this had already been established.

As to the second part of your post, I think you're miscontruing what I said. Claiming vengeful in the way that Faust did, threatening to kill Ash and basically trying to blackmail people out of lynching him (when there wasn't even much of a wagon on him at that point) is just--like I said--almost asking to be killed. At least at that point (I don't know about now), I couldn't see a town narrative where claiming vengeful would be helpful to town. And it most definitely wasn't--as it hijacked the rest of the day and almost assured a mislynch of Faust. At this point, I am not going to be claiming anything.
I guess there would be some scenarios where claiming vengeful would be helpful to town, but I can't think of any.

The fact that I think claiming vengeful is something likely to get someone lynched simply reflects my opinion based upon what preparation I had done before the game started--and trying to think possible scenarios out. We already seem to disagree on the scumminess of someone having received no suspicion.

Yes, I am a newbie, but I did my best to read over old games, the setup, and articles on Mafiascum. So using the argument that me having knowledge of something that you think I theoretically couldn't/wouldn't have without being scum is just silly.

[Teproc]

yuma's first reaction

I am going to withhold judgement on faust until/if we hear from him. I will not be online during the deadline. I will be at work and unable to post, so hopefully we will hear from him soon.

i will get online before leaving for work--something I generally don't, but I'll get up early just for you guys...

I think I am still comfortable with my vote on 2.7, but want to go through my list of people not excluded from my town list.

And then a big post where he votes Eevee and wants to wait for faust to explain his claim.

Once faust does explain, yuma doesn't see the town narrative for his claim and puts faust at L-1 because his alternative lynches (liopoil, Eevee) don't look like they're happening.

Hm. Well this doesn't tell me much. yuma is yuma, so his whole reaction here is very reasonable, but he does end up voting for faust. Basically, he's doing exactly what I think scum!yuma would do (get faust lynched while looking very townie) but it is very easy to see town!yuma act in the exact same way, so... still null on yuma.

PPE : Ichimaru, I want to stress again that I'm sorry if I appear to be disrespectful in my analysis of you, that's not the intention. I guess I thought you hadn't done that much research because you didn't know what OMGUS was, and that's a pretty basic term (although I have never read strategy articles on mafiascum, I only read a bunch of games here, so my perspective might be biased here).

I'll point out that what I'm doing here is not pointing fingers at people for lynching faust, I'm just trying to see how scum would have reacted to his claim, and I think your behavior fits that. I think it is very valuable to look at the reactions to faust's claim because we have new info : ash is confirmed town now. So anything that "has already been established" about that has to be reexamined imo.

[Teproc]

mail-mi has, like, three posts in that time frame, all about wanting to lynch/convince a dead faust to target e and then switching over to Eevee because the e lynch isn't happening.

Overall, this hasn't been as fruitful as I expected. I do think it makes me want to not lynch Robz today, as I think he comes out the towniest here.

[Lekkit]

I wish I had more time, less work and a less upset stomach. Too much happening for me to actually do something productive here today. On the bright side I have the day off tomorrow since I had to work today. I really hope I won't be feeling as beat as I did yesterday.

I'd like to put this up for discussion. If we lynch scum today, should I go for the suicide hiding? I think it might be worth it since we are then left with only 1 mafia. And it would confirm my claim. The problem is that I don't really have very strong scum reads this game and hiding behind town and getting double killed would be really bad.

[Voltaire]

Fascinating exercise, Teproc. I draw different conclusions, but good line of thought.

I guess I should stop being so nervous about who I chose, since 3 choices are correct.

I think lio's exercise (flavor catch) about e is probably from town. No lynching lio for me today. So if I'm doing that, probably vote: Robz as lio's Teproc line of thinking seems fine, and the Vengeful article really does talk about not claiming. But I could see Ichi being scum, just not terribly likely. mail-mi probably scum too. Would vote for him. Who does that leave...um...yuma! Yeah, deal with him later, like usual. Cool.

[Voltaire]

I wish I had more time, less work and a less upset stomach. Too much happening for me to actually do something productive here today. On the bright side I have the day off tomorrow since I had to work today. I really hope I won't be feeling as beat as I did yesterday.

I'd like to put this up for discussion. If we lynch scum today, should I go for the suicide hiding? I think it might be worth it since we are then left with only 1 mafia. And it would confirm my claim. The problem is that I don't really have very strong scum reads this game and hiding behind town and getting double killed would be really bad.

Well, if you hide scum won't target you 'cause it's a missed kill. Scum will probably take out myself or e, since they need to kill an IC. So...maybe yeah, go for the suicide death? That would be two NKs, but probably gets us another scum lynch. But this is a hypothetical where we've lynched scum...so yeah, my input is try to die.

Ultimately it's your call.

[Teproc]

Voting Robz ? You weren't kidding about drawing different conclusions then.

I understand that scum is also likely to distance themselves from the faust lynch, hoping it happens without their help, and obviously some of them did that, but Robz's case on 2.7 definitely distracted from faust, so it reads pretty townie to me in those circumstances.

[Teproc]

Well, I say "obviously some of them did that", but that's not true if the scum team is Ichimaru/lio/yuma.

[liopoil]

I'd like to put this up for discussion. If we lynch scum today, should I go for the suicide hiding? I think it might be worth it since we are then left with only 1 mafia. And it would confirm my claim. The problem is that I don't really have very strong scum reads this game and hiding behind town and getting double killed would be really bad.

Yes actually, I think you should do this but only if we lynch scum today.  even if you hide behind town, it gets rid of a suspect for us, while scum would otherwise kill one of voltaire/e.

So once we've decided who we're lynching, pick your top scumread besides who we lynch, and say that you are going to be hiding behind them should our lynch flip scum.

note you really don't need the town's consent to do this, it's totally up to you. we can't stop you even if we think it's a bad idea.

if we lynch town I think you probably shouldn't hide, because if there are two deaths tonight we lose.

[yuma]

I'd like to put this up for discussion. If we lynch scum today, should I go for the suicide hiding? I think it might be worth it since we are then left with only 1 mafia. And it would confirm my claim. The problem is that I don't really have very strong scum reads this game and hiding behind town and getting double killed would be really bad.

I might argue that potentially not hiding at this point might be the safest bet if you are indeed the hider (of course leaving it up in the air for WIFOM for mafia). It is the middle of the road strategy, doesn't out scum, but also doesn't result in two dead townies, undoing any advantage that we might get today from lynching correctly. But as I said it shouldn't be decided upon, because if mafia knows that you aren't they will just take you out... but then that puts us in a situation of you hiding behind an unknown--risking getting double killed and getting killed by mafia with no information to us--so... I don't know anymore.

[Teproc]

I'd like to put this up for discussion. If we lynch scum today, should I go for the suicide hiding? I think it might be worth it since we are then left with only 1 mafia. And it would confirm my claim. The problem is that I don't really have very strong scum reads this game and hiding behind town and getting double killed would be really bad.

Yes actually, I think you should do this but only if we lynch scum today.  even if you hide behind town, it gets rid of a suspect for us, while scum would otherwise kill one of voltaire/e.

So once we've decided who we're lynching, pick your top scumread besides who we lynch, and say that you are going to be hiding behind them should our lynch flip scum.

note you really don't need the town's consent to do this, it's totally up to you. we can't stop you even if we think it's a bad idea.

if we lynch town I think you probably shouldn't hide, because if there are two deaths tonight we lose.

If his scumread is wrong, we lose, right ? Seems like a solid plan.

[Lekkit]

I wish I had more time, less work and a less upset stomach. Too much happening for me to actually do something productive here today. On the bright side I have the day off tomorrow since I had to work today. I really hope I won't be feeling as beat as I did yesterday.

I'd like to put this up for discussion. If we lynch scum today, should I go for the suicide hiding? I think it might be worth it since we are then left with only 1 mafia. And it would confirm my claim. The problem is that I don't really have very strong scum reads this game and hiding behind town and getting double killed would be really bad.

Well, if you hide scum won't target you 'cause it's a missed kill. Scum will probably take out myself or e, since they need to kill an IC. So...maybe yeah, go for the suicide death? That would be two NKs, but probably gets us another scum lynch. But this is a hypothetical where we've lynched scum...so yeah, my input is try to die.

Ultimately it's your call.

The thing is, if I just go for someone, you won't know who it is. I have to somehow announce it. If I announce town, I guess they would kill that person and me in the process.

[liopoil]

my advice, more succintly:

- Tell us who you will hide behind if we lynch scum.
- Don't hide if we lynch town.
- Don't tell us that you're taking my second point of advice.

It's not too terrible if lekkit gets NKed though - it gives us two full ICs, and in any case one of our semi-ICs (e/volt) was going to die anyway.

[Teproc]

I guess we don't lose because we lynched scum, but still, that makes it VERY easy for scum to get two nightkills. I think not hiding/WIFOMing is the best option.

[Lekkit]

And I obviously won't hide if we lynch town. That would be pretty stupid.

Also I know that in the end it's kind of up to me, but I still think other people's opinions and arguments is what gives us information in the end.

[liopoil]

they can only get two NKs in the case that his scumread is wrong. And even in that case, there are confirming 2 ICs and killing one of our prime suspects for us.

[Teproc]

I mean, even if Lekkit doesn't hide, I think scum is more likely to target Voltaire or e, keeping the possibility that Lekkit is fakeclaiming. If they kill Lekkit, Voltaire and e become actual ICs.

[liopoil]

I mean, even if Lekkit doesn't hide, I think scum is more likely to target Voltaire or e, keeping the possibility that Lekkit is fakeclaiming. If they kill Lekkit, Voltaire and e become actual ICs.

right, so he should hide if we lynch scum.

[yuma]

someone needs to do the same for teproc that he did for us:

so 807 to 906:

first post is really the only one that is important I am thinking:

Hmmm. This is not great for me, because I don't think faust is scum and I really don't think ash is scum.

I looked at the setup recently, and if I remember correctly, Vengeful has  50% chance to happen if one K is rolled, and there will always be at least one Vengeful if more than one K is rolled.

Vengeful is probably the go to scum fakeclaim but... I mean, it's a pretty likely role to exist, and I do think his timing makes sense here. I wouldn't have claimed at that point myself, but it makes sense to help narrow the lynch down.

Basically, I think his claim doesn't change anything to his likelihood of being town/scum. But I don't want to lynch him because I believe ash to be town, and I'm not confident either way as to faust's alignment.

similar response as Robz gave in regard to vengeful being the "go to fake claim" - note that teproc calls robz having the towniest approach when he did hte summary...

I think teproc is really the only person who thought faust (and ash as well) was pretty townie throughout and was very adamant that he didn't like the lynch. What do we think of this? I have had experiences on both ends of the boat on this as town--in regard to faust day1 of toy story--and as SK--in regard to voltgloss on day1 of wibbely wobbly... I think I lean scummy, but this is probably because I still have a scummy read on teproc based off day2 stuff, so I need to look at this and make sure I am not being biased, as strong biases have gotten me in trouble lately as town.

on another note:
I remember a while back someone saying that Robz's "plan to make faust stumble" as teproc puts it was scummy--I thought that it was teproc, but haven't been able to find it.... ah it was 2.7 and teproc later says that he thought it was a townie thing to do, so this is quite consistent.

[yuma]

let's not let this conversation distract from the good other conversation we were having:

that said, I think an idea is for lekkit to do this:

if we lynch scum today he does 1 of 3.

1. doesn't hide
2. hides behind his top scumread (which he announces)
3. hides behind his top townread (which he doesn't announce)

there is the wifom. there is the risk of his top scumread being town and mafia gets the double kill, but they won't know if he is going to do that or not... or he hides behind scum and gets killed w/o us knowing about it, but at least then we have 2 people that he could have hid behind.

[Teproc]

Huh ? Wait, I need to think about this.

Ok so we lynched scum. Yay !, This leaves us with 6 town, 2 mafia (assuming no SK).

- If Lekkit doesn't hide, scum kills Voltaire/2.7. That's 5/2, and non-IC town is looking at a 50% chance of lynching correctly (2 out of 4). If we mislynch then, that puts us in lylo.
- If Lekkit hides behind his top scum read and is right, we then lynch that guy and find ourselves at 3/1 with no ICs, in mylo.
- If Lekkit hides behind his top scum read and is wrong, we're at 4/2 with 2 ICs, which is a 66% chance of lynching correctly for non-IC town, but we're in mylo.

Is this all correct ? I mean, the second option is tempting and the third one ain't so bad, but the first one is safer basically.

PPE : 2 unread.

[yuma]

- If Lekkit doesn't hide, scum kills Voltaire/2.7. That's 5/2, and non-IC town is looking at a 50% chance of lynching correctly (2 out of 4). If we mislynch then, that puts us in lylo.

If lekkit doesn't hide and scum knows he isn't going to hide they don't target 2.7/voltaire. They target lekkit to get rid of the PR and the potential of him outing them--or making other ICs--later in the game... so he needs to have the possibility of hiding for WIFOM.

[Teproc]

I don't think I agree, but that's a valid point I guess. My thinking was that Lekkit won't have any other opportunity to use his PR (too risky) at that point, but that's not true if we lynch scum again since we would be at 5/1, and scum might fear that and kill Lekkit.

Which means the first situation is even more appealing I think. Leaning towards Lekkit not hiding, without explicitly saying so, then.

[Voltaire]

I'd like to put this up for discussion. If we lynch scum today, should I go for the suicide hiding? I think it might be worth it since we are then left with only 1 mafia. And it would confirm my claim. The problem is that I don't really have very strong scum reads this game and hiding behind town and getting double killed would be really bad.

Yes actually, I think you should do this but only if we lynch scum today.  even if you hide behind town, it gets rid of a suspect for us, while scum would otherwise kill one of voltaire/e.

So once we've decided who we're lynching, pick your top scumread besides who we lynch, and say that you are going to be hiding behind them should our lynch flip scum.

note you really don't need the town's consent to do this, it's totally up to you. we can't stop you even if we think it's a bad idea.

if we lynch town I think you probably shouldn't hide, because if there are two deaths tonight we lose.

If his scumread is wrong, we lose, right ? Seems like a solid plan.

If we lynch town. You are never this negative. I truly now think you're scum based on gut stuff. I just don't lynch purely off gut.

[Voltaire]

So...we've stalled. I'd say this means scum is fine with who we're lynching, but we're not lynching anyone.

[yuma]

So...we've stalled. I'd say this means scum is fine with who we're lynching, but we're not lynching anyone.

we have a bit... i think part of that is that the people who have had a chance to say stuff have said it, while there is still a few people (me for example) who haven't had a chance to put down full thoughts. the weekend will be a good chance for me to get everything i need done i think.

deadline is thursday so i am not overly concerned about a stall right now, things will pick back up soon i imagine.

[yuma]

One thing I can say now is that I am a bit concerned about all of the "yuma: null" reads floating around right now.

Looking back: liopoil, teproc, ichimaru all put me as specifically null while mail-mi said "hasn't done anything to make me suspicious, but it's yuma so..." and robz said: "Yuma has gotten absolutely zero pressure, which is actually very scummy. He's had a much smaller presence than usual too, ostensibly due to VLA."

The reason I am concerned about this is I see potential for scum trying to set me up as the mislynch for the win tomorrow (obviously if they get a mislynch through today).

The problem with this is that everyone is doing it--more or less--and as a result I don't know if I can separate scum from town doing it. Part of this is that I think everyone is kinda following our quasi-IC's (voltaire) thought process of "null on yuma, let's deal with him tomorrow" line of thought....

But it does make me very wary and I am going to ask that people actually take a stance on me... It doesn't have to be a strong stance, but actually give an opinion instead of just stating null...

[yuma]

also can someone summarize the whole liopoil thing in regard to 2.7's flavor for me. I missed that in real time and kinda glossed over it, but it appears that some seem to think it has real implications. I would greatly appreciate a summary.

[Teproc]

I mean, I have a null read on you because you're hard to read. Ok, the truth of it is that I don't think your actions actually speak either way to your alignment, but I've had a bad gut feeling on you since mid-day 2. It's not much so I haven't pushed it and I don't want to push it now either, but since you're asking, there you go.

[Voltaire]

also can someone summarize the whole liopoil thing in regard to 2.7's flavor for me. I missed that in real time and kinda glossed over it, but it appears that some seem to think it has real implications. I would greatly appreciate a summary.

lio noticed that ash flipped with e's claimed flavor name. He requested that e answer/double-check/explain this. But before e could, we all worked out the possible options and concluded that mod error was the likeliest, and that this was most likely to mean e is town (lio agreed/said this himself).

So if he were scum, why did he point this out to create a pseudo-IC? (which is what would have happened to e since this was prior to Lekkit's claim).

[Voltaire]

It starts here at 1541, yuma.

Voltaire: my biggest townread.  Like robz said, he's been exactly like normal town voltaire, and it doesn't seem fake. I first got the townread from his reactions at the very start of the game regarding the flavor thing. He was pretty bold in what he was saying, and as scum I think it put him at risk of being caught should the setup been different from what it is. Lastly, I agreed with him in regard to ashersky and the fact that ashersky, who tried super hard to get voltaire lynched, couldn't find any good reasons (I thought) to lynch him makes me not really worried that he's scum.

2.7: I'm gonna actually reread for this one, because despite him having nearly 200 posts I remember very little about him:

first, off-topic a bit, here's something I just stumbled upon - pregame he says this:

I am good with starting whenever, I just may not be able to be as active right out of the gate.  Next week is a relatively busy work week for me.

and then....

FIRST

clearly he must be scum, town wouldn't be this excited to get into the game. 

back to something game related.... WOAH:

I don't know Dynasty Warriors, so mass-claiming flavor names will not really help me.  However, it could be really useful to certain PR town members (Robz?) as they make decisions for night actions.  I like flavor name claiming. 

I am Zhuge Liang

Ashersky was Zhuge Liang, a Vanilla Townie

...what does this mean? is he obvscum? could two people have the same name? did I just out him as VT? is he IC?

I think I'll stop my reread there for now...

[Voltaire]

Yeah, it's better to re-read, as I am mis-remembering it myself. e did post that his flavor was Zhuge Liang right away.

[Voltaire]

because he confirmed that he is zhuge liang right away. as scum he might not post until mcmc either confirms or changes the flip, and if it turns out ash was really zhuge liang he might claim to have misread his PM, he was really --insert similarly spelled name here--

hmmm, so maybe not. if he was scum and this was his fakeclaim, I think he'd be more likely to question mcmc about this during the night, 'umm, I thought nobody else would have my fakeclaim'... and also if mcmc made the mistake it pretty much confirms that there is a zhuge liang in the game, and it has to be e otherwise someone would counterclaim.

[Voltaire]

assuming ash is really zhang fei:

let's assume that e is scum for a minute. the name zhuge liang is certainly town, right? he's in one of the two town factions that are fighting the scum together, right robz? zhuge liang is surely his mod-provided fakeclaim then, right? So there is no real zhuge liang in the game. e has his real scum flavor name. if e is scum, then mcmc flipped a flavor name that isn't in the game at all. And, if e is scum, that means he saw ash flip his mod-provided fakeclaim. Surely he would have contacted mcmc regarding this and it would have been fixed during the night, right? as town it's easy to forget your flavorname, I don't know mine off the top of my head right now. Scum who have already used the name to fakeclaim on the other hand... less so I think.

That's why I think that e most likely is really zhuge liang, and so he's likely town.

[yuma]

also can someone summarize the whole liopoil thing in regard to 2.7's flavor for me. I missed that in real time and kinda glossed over it, but it appears that some seem to think it has real implications. I would greatly appreciate a summary.

lio noticed that ash flipped with e's claimed flavor name. He requested that e answer/double-check/explain this. But before e could, we all worked out the possible options and concluded that mod error was the likeliest, and that this was most likely to mean e is town (lio agreed/said this himself).

So if he were scum, why did he point this out to create a pseudo-IC? (which is what would have happened to e since this was prior to Lekkit's claim).

Ok, thanks for explaining, I see your point and agree with it to an extent, but my concern corresponds to what I mentioned a while ago--which no one responded to:

2. up until you said you had something to claim you played it perfect, but after that.... I think you gave away too much there and perhaps allowed mafia to formulate a response about 2.7 and voltaire that would correspond to them anticipating your results. Here is my thought process.... what role would be worth claiming about with information about 2 players that we could possibly have? Not any of the protective (Doc, JK), Tracker either is a positive result or an ambiguous result like chairs had on ashersky, the killing roles have no results to give out, and our rolecop is dead and gunsmith maybe you had results... but the hider claim was so much more likely that I think you totally gave your hand away when you said you had results to claim.... because if I as town saw it, I am sure that mafia also saw it. So I think in looking back at this we should see if we can spot anyone who tried to create reads on voltaire/2.7 that anticipated a hider claim from lekkit... Thoughts?

lekkit stated he had something to claim at 1532 and lio noticed it at 1541...

So I am not saying liopoil is scummy, nor am I so sure he should be today's lynch, but I do see a narrative where someone as scum could anticipate 2.7 being given quasi-IC status and then during the reread pointing this out because it was going to happen anyways...  see what i mean?

[Voltaire]

So I am not saying liopoil is scummy, nor am I so sure he should be today's lynch, but I do see a narrative where someone as scum could anticipate 2.7 being given quasi-IC status and then during the reread pointing this out because it was going to happen anyways...  see what i mean?

Mmmmmmmmmmm...but that requires sitting on the mistake, only whipping it out when Lekkit claims. And it's not like lio started out with a conclusion (e is town! look at how right I am!) It doesn't make lio conf!town, but it takes him out of my lynch pool today, I think. Because I need to find reasons to eliminate people, and this is the best reason for taking someone out today I think.

[yuma]

So I am not saying liopoil is scummy, nor am I so sure he should be today's lynch, but I do see a narrative where someone as scum could anticipate 2.7 being given quasi-IC status and then during the reread pointing this out because it was going to happen anyways...  see what i mean?

Mmmmmmmmmmm...but that requires sitting on the mistake, only whipping it out when Lekkit claims. And it's not like lio started out with a conclusion (e is town! look at how right I am!) It doesn't make lio conf!town, but it takes him out of my lynch pool today, I think. Because I need to find reasons to eliminate people, and this is the best reason for taking someone out today I think.

I agree with you there, that he probably isn't the lynch for today--barring something egregious--but what do you think of the concept liopoil aside? That mafia was likely aware of what was coming from lekkit?

[Voltaire]

I agree with you there, that he probably isn't the lynch for today--barring something egregious--but what do you think of the concept liopoil aside? That mafia was likely aware of what was coming from lekkit?

Yeah, probably. I do agree with that. What conclusions do you draw from it? Who looks good, who looks bad?

[yuma]

I agree with you there, that he probably isn't the lynch for today--barring something egregious--but what do you think of the concept liopoil aside? That mafia was likely aware of what was coming from lekkit?

Yeah, probably. I do agree with that. What conclusions do you draw from it? Who looks good, who looks bad?

I haven't had a chance to look (I will later if you think it is worthwhile), more bouncing the idea of you if it is something you think is worth looking at... My time is limited and I don't want to use it on info that you and others won't find pertinent...

[Voltaire]

I think (if you're town) your reads are invaluable and you should form them on your own from whatever information you find relevant.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 3.3

teproc (1): mail-mi
Robz888 (2) Liopoil, voltaire


Not Voting (6): teproc, Robz, Lekkit, 2.71828, Ichimaru Gin, yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 15th at 8 pm

[Voltaire]

Plus, E has too many reasons explaining why scum killed eevee, clearly has been thinking about who scum should kill a lot.

This is a horrible line of thinking.

I'm re-reading lio, and he's pretty scummy. Crap.

[2.71828.....]

ok. quick post as I take a short break from my other activities.

I was really disappointed with the mod error, as it does create a pretty strong case (along with the Lekkit result) that I am town. 

All that aside, here is the last reads post I had:

Current reads:
Would lynch: Robz, Ichimaru, Ashersky
Would lynch on the 2nd before deadline: Chairs, liopoil
Would take some persuading, but might vote for them: mail-mi, Teproc, Lekkit
Not interested in lynching today: Yuma, Voltaire

So I was pretty wrong there.  But I don't think all the way wrong

Here are my new reads:

Town: Lekkit, 2.7, Voltaire - Totally believe the claim
mild town: Yuma
mild scum: Robz, Teproc
Stronger scum: Ichimaru, liopoil, mail-mi

I dont have much more right now, and I have only really skimmed the last page or so of posts, but this is where my gut is right now. 

[2.71828.....]

I was really disappointed with the mod error, as it does create a pretty strong case (along with the Lekkit result) that I am town. 

Don't get me wrong, it helps us as town and we needed the help, but I enjoy fighting cases and the back and forth debate.  It is one of the things I enjoy about mafia. 

[Voltaire]

Can you give reasons for your scum reads?

[liopoil]

checking in, will be back with more tomorrow. I see there's been a fair bit of discussion about me, is there anything specific you would like me to address now?

[Voltaire]

checking in, will be back with more tomorrow. I see there's been a fair bit of discussion about me, is there anything specific you would like me to address now?

I think scum is trying to prevent you becoming a collective town read.

[Teproc]

So you think yuma is scum ? Or is someone else doing it ?

I guess you'll say I am ? liopoil is a town read for me (and out of my lynch pool for today), I'm just not as convinced as you that the 2.7 thing is that indicative of his alignment.

[Voltaire]

lio has helped give out town reads (narrow lynch pool). You have helped keep the lynch pool open (widened lynch pool).

[Voltaire]

@Robz : Just joking, I saw liopoil and Voltaire saying that I was unlikely to be scum because of the way the wagons broke down so I figured I'd comment on it.

Yep, I'm asking them to clarify.

Look at the final vote count of yesterday. Assuming we believe lekkit, all of the ash wagon is conf!town except us two. Everyone else except Teproc is voting for Teproc. That means, from my perspective at least, that at least one of his buddies was bussing him yesterday if he is scum, two buddies if you are town as well.

Robz, have you answered/addressed this?

[Teproc]

lio has helped give out town reads (narrow lynch pool). You have helped keep the lynch pool open (widened lynch pool).

How so ? I've given town reads on lio and Robz.

Maybe you're referring to my resistance to making 2.7 an IC out of the whole Zhuge Liang flip thing, although you guys eventually convinced me on that point (which didn't end up mattering since Lekkit claimed), but otherwise that is an unfair assessment of my play.

[Voltaire]

lio has helped give out town reads (narrow lynch pool). You have helped keep the lynch pool open (widened lynch pool).

How so ? I've given town reads on lio and Robz.

Maybe you're referring to my resistance to making 2.7 an IC out of the whole Zhuge Liang flip thing, although you guys eventually convinced me on that point (which didn't end up mattering since Lekkit claimed), but otherwise that is an unfair assessment of my play.

I'm not just looking at today.

[Voltaire]

I would like everyone to state if they're cool with lynching Robz.

[liopoil]

I would like everyone to state if they're cool with lynching Robz.

very cool

[Teproc]

I would rather lynch one of mail-mi, Ichimaru or yuma, but I need to do more rereads first anyway.

As for your previous comment, that's probably fair. It doesn't help that we keep lynching my town reads though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

My preferred lynches are: Teproc or Mail-Mi.
would lynch: Liopoil, Robz
Yuma I'm a little less sure on. I'm trying my best to narrow down my personal lynch pool, but aside from my preferred lynches, I don't feel that strongly either way about most of the people left in the lynch pool. Which I know is really bad.

Plus, E has too many reasons explaining why scum killed eevee, clearly has been thinking about who scum should kill a lot.

This is a horrible line of thinking.

I'm re-reading lio, and he's pretty scummy. Crap.

This has happened to me some when rereading. I feel like I've got a read on someone and then see something that makes me feel exactly the opposite.
I am going to vote: Mail-Mi

I called him out on his 180 reads flip on me with no evidence. It really came across as OMGUS to me--he still hasn't responded to that. He has been lurking a fair amount, and what he has contributed

I would like everyone to re-read mail-mi.

I would like everyone (who has played with him before) to ask themselves, "is this how town!mail-mi acts?"

I would like everyone (especially Robz) to consider how we always let mail-mi live, and what that means.

Before I've read anything else

I would like everyone to remember Volt's bias against me. (this is serious)

I would like everyone to read this: YES.

I would like everyone to realize that if mail-mi isn't alive at the end of the game and is town, town loses. (yes this is also semi-serious. Stats say that if you mislynch me, you lose. Look at the games I'm in.)

After I finish my rereads, I'll probably post a longer case on him, but this is a start at least.
I don't know if he has a meta for generally short posts, but I don't see him contributing a lot of content.

Oddly, it seems like there's almost a vote-shy thing going on today. To a degree, any vote on someone in the new lynch pool has a 50% chance of hitting scum if the person is one of the pseduo-IC's, and a 60% chance of hitting scum if the person is in the lynch pool themselves. There are a couple good cases that I see, but aside from Voltaire, Liopoil, and Teproc--with a little from e and Yuma, there's not a lot of contribution. Lekkit's claim really helps town out, so let's use it. Scum has a vested interest in making the game stall right now-when we have more information as town then ever.

[2.71828.....]

Can you give reasons for your scum reads?

I will try to get that down by Sunday.  Travel day tomorrow, so hopefully I will get some time either Saturday night or Sunday afternoon to do a reread and get a more full picture out there.  I just thought it would be good to have some sort of reads out for everyone to see where I stand right now. 

[Teproc]

Robz reread, since he has the most votes on him.

Day 1

#116 : Reluctant to flavor claim
#118 : And then enthusiastic
#119 : Then thinks that would be way too easy
#131 : Looks an awful lot like rolefishing
Scum!Robz would not know if flavour gives away Prs, so he would probably be ok with claiming.
Town!Robz wouldn't know either, but wouldn't he be more careful ? Especially after #119...
#235 : Now supporting claiming makes more sense from a town perspective.
#406 : « I'm caught up, but I don't have like thoughts about anything ». This is how I felt at the time, but does town!Robz ever has that attitude day 1 ? I'm genuinely asking.
#473 : votes liopoil (1) for meta reasons (Toy Story)
#694 : This kind of second-guessing (about liopoil) reads town to me. And while I think « semi-random last minute lynch » is a horrible, horrible idea, he did the same thing in Chocolate as town, so.
#805 : Would rather lynch Eevee than liopoil. His backing off of liopoil is interesting. Could be town surprised that the wagon got going so fast, could be scum worried that his casual bussing is working a little too well. Or distancing himself from a mislynch, but I don't think that's likely at all. People are just not getting suspected for mislynching nowadays, in fact the only person suspected based on voting his me, for NOT mislynching. On-wagon is where it's at for scum. In Chocolate Factory, no townie ever tried to do any kind of wagon analysis. Ever. If I were scum, I would certainly not try to distancing myself from lynches, because it's simply pointless with the current town meta.
#823-939 : Reaction to the faust claim. I've been over this, I read all of this as very townie.
#993 : Votes faust (9 times!) after he said he lied. Is pissed about faust for the rest of the day. That's null for Robz.
#1052 : Actually goes back to 2.7 for his flip-flopping on faust.
#1081 : Wants to move back to liopoil last minute. I really need to read Robz in Modern Community to get a more current idea of his scum!meta, but classic scum!Robz doesn't change his opinion every few days like that.

Day 2

#1151 : votes ashersky (1) for his 100% stance on faust. I don't like this. Day 1, Robz argued that this made ash town, now he thinks it makes him scum ? Changing you mind is not scummy, but I don't get the reason for it at all here, except maybe paranoia because Robz always reads ash as town.
#1227 : somewhat good response to my question here I guess.
#1228 : Saying Ichimaru isn't scum because partners would coach him. Doesn't mean anything for now, but worth keeping in mind if/when one of them flips.
#1285 : Suspects me of being ash's partner for saying this is town!ash and misdirecting on to Ichimaru.
#1308 : reads post ! There's... not a lot in it though.
#1407 : Ok, I think I'm now convinced that the ash tunneling is town!Robz.

Day 3 is a little hard to analyse right now I think. He had some doubts about the Lekkit claim, but didn't push it (although I think it would be suicidal for scum to push those today). It'll all be more interesting when we get flips out of the reduced lynch pool.

Overall, this comforts my opinion that Robz should not be our lynch today. If he and liopoil are both town, it does mean the ash wagon was all town, but that's plausible enough. Maybe I need to reread liopoil next. I would reread my top scum read, mail-mi, but I already know what I'm going to find there, regardless of his alignement. What a lovely meta.

[Teproc]

I guess a post count could be useful with new info, so here's one for each day. This doesn't count pre-game posts

Day 1

Voltaire : 153
2.7 : 144
Robz : 104
ashersky : 103
Teproc : 102
faust : 87
yuma : 67
liopoil : 57
mail-mi : 45
Ichimaru : 37
Eevee : 35
chairs : 31
Lekkit : 27

Day 2

ashersky : 56
yuma : 52
Voltaire : 43
Robz : 39
2.7 : 35
liopoil : 32
Ichimaru : 30
Teproc : 18
mail-mi : 17
Lekkit : 14
chairs : 10

Day 3

Voltaire : 82
Teproc : 64
liopoil : 31
Robz : 23
2.7 : 21
yuma : 19
Ichimaru : 16
Lekkit : 9
mail-mi : 7

Obviously the first thing that you'll see is that I'm extremely low day 2 compared to other days. I was in vacation. I didn't post in the V/LA thread because I was still able to read most day and then come and post once or twice a day. Also, I didn't really have strong reads anyway.

The second thing is yuma's spike in activity day 2, but that's also RL reasons, since he was sick day 1 and is again now I think ?

Other than that... liopoil is a little more active today than he's been. Excited by the reduced lynch pool ? I think the Lekkit claim, if it's true, would cause scum to post a little less (self-serving I know), because scum needs to think hard about whether or not they want to bus, and if they do, who they want to bus.

Anyone else sees something interesting ?

P.S. : I will be semi-V/LA this weekend (it's my mother's birthday if you must know)

[mail-mi]

@Teprocs comment on liopoil: actually, I think that is s bit damning for liopoil. I niticed that a lot in Toy Story, he got more active later as scum. I know I put him as towniest (I think) but evidence is stacking against him.

[liopoil]

mail-mi, that bit of "evidence" was brought up on D1, and D2 a bit... and I already responded that not only is this bad because it discourages lurkers from posting more, but it's also wrong because I've done it as town too. Not only that, but Teproc's comment I believe is intended to point towards me being town.

[yuma]

Finally have a chance to look at this game (I hope):

So my main people I think I want to look at are:

mail-mi, Robz and Teproc (again). Liopoil I feel is worth looking at but I will save for last given that there is some credit to be had for the 2.7 mod mistake error (how much is perhaps debatable, but given that if he is potentially 2 other partners out there to find anyways that would help point to him if we can find them makes me want to not focus on him). Ichimaru doesnt' seem to be a candidate for lynch today and I think he was analyzed yesterday to an extent that if he does become viable there is at least that to reference at a later point.

So let's start (I am just putting down stuff, I might be repeating what others have said, so sorry about that):

mail-mi: I think the main thing to point out about him was that he was a potential candiate for lynch day1 against faust. Voltaire and Teproc voted for him, as did faust at one point.

There wasn't anyone specifically arguing against lynching mail-mi, but there was what I would call movement away from him... I mean part of that was the whole faust thing distracting it, but there was plenty of talk about him from voltaire that went more or less ignored (the tactic I think scum would use in preventing a partner lynch opposed to actively defending), basically a lot of people were saying "I'll vote eevee over mail-mi if we aren't lynching faust" including me.

I'll remind people about the rage "secret-cases" vote against voltaire given that we now believe voltaire to be town... Could be an easy place for scum-mail-mi to put down a vote w/o getting pressure for it?

This post is interesting as well:

My scumminess reads:
Voltaire
liopoil
faust
chairs
ash

given what we know about basically of these people excluding to a minor extent liopoil...

He jumped his vote around all over (e to lio to e to eevee to faust) in a very short space of time toward the end of day. Not sure what to think of that, I mean we kinda saw him do that as mafia in GoT

Day2:

He starts out with a very strong read on ashersky... like the kinda strong town read that I think he might have as scum.... his pokemon reference to sheeping my case on teproc rubbed me the wrong way as well... it is like he was trying to overly dramatize that he was sheeping to negate the fact that he was sheeping and he slowly, nice and gradually shifted his read over to ashersky being scummy (but never voting for him).

Day2 mail-mi is quite different from day1 mail-mi in that he is voting and posting quite a bit less (well christmas for everyone I guess, so really it is the voting that stands out I think. Day1 he was bouncing all over. Day2 he just stayed on 2.7 and teproc all day long)

Day3 non-existant.

Basically I could be willing to vote for mail-mi.

If mail-mi is scum I think his partners could be: Robz, Ichimaru (bussing today), maybe teproc (bussing on day2), maybe liopoil (if you consider him back in the lynch pool, which I don't think we are quite ready to do)

[yuma]

Robz:

He started out with a scum read on liopoil and then introduced the lurker lynch idea... also note that he pretty much excluded mail-mi from this analysis as he votes liopoil, lekkit and eevee, but only ever says about mail-mi "that it is too easy"

He is very aggressive in regard to the faust fakeclaim, pretty much in the same way that he was in response to the morgrim claim in Chocolate Factory.... So either the same response or a good acting job? I do think his unvote when faust showed back up was a townie move, but with robz doesn't mean he is town... Interesting to note that Robz was also pretty adamant at the end that 2.7 should be the lynch of choice if faust isn't lynched.... something that mail-mi picked up heavily on as well and pushed into day2...

Really the main thing I am noticing--and it is probably because I am doing this just after reading mail-mi--is that robz frequently says he is willing to vote for mail-mi, but never does or puts him off to the side for some reason or other...

examples:

You know what, I bet neither liopoil nor mail-mi flip scum, they're just too easy.

Let's try semi-random last minute lynch again. Vote: Lekkit, an un-scrutinized lurker.

I'll happily lynch Eevee, mail-mi, or liopoil. I would also lynch Lekkit.

I don't think we should lynch chairs today. I see where you are coming from, 2.7, but this sort of thing seems to backfire on town mostly.

Vote: 2.7 I will be around at deadline and an hour or two before deadline, and will move to Eevee, liopoil, faust, or mail-mi, or faust if necessary. I actually like the faust lynch even more now since if it's wrong, he could shoot 2.7. I don't want him to shoot ashersky, if ash is wrong about faust he's wrong, whatever, town ash has bad early reads and is brashly overconfident all the time. Shoot 2.7, faust!

I'm only going to vote for faust, 2.7, or Eevee.

Day2:
he was strong and hard about ashersky and really that was about all he talked about... slight exaggeration maybe, but pretty much all the important stuff was surrounding ashersky... which is kinda rough because I don't know how to read that whole interaction. It could so easily be a town v town argument because ashersky and robz have had this sort of argument from time immortal it seems and I didn't see anything to separate it from a town v town fight, nor would I expect there to be anything if robz is indeed scum...

other than that he does defend ichimaru, teproc. I don't have too much else to say. He did get a vote from liopoil... and ash I think voted for him? and 2.7. Oh and I voted for him... I didn't remember that. Huh...

I think the only thing he said about mail-mi all day2 was:

Mail-mi: Someone wants to lynch mail-mi, I think? Voltaire, yes? Maybe yuma? Do you still? Why?

Day3: Robz brings up the idea of looking more closely at mail-mi... which he hasn't done PS... except to just come out and say that mail-mi is the scummiest rather out of the blue... realizing that he is going to need to bus his partner?

I think there is a strong argument to be made that robz and mail-mi are potentially scum partners... and as a result I would be willing to vote robz. I don't know which player I think we should lynch first and I am not so sure it matters? I guess I should look at them as potentially mafia, but not partners and figure out that, but like I said I think they could very easily be partners.

I think robz could also be partners with: ichimaru (defending yesterday), Teproc (defending yesterday), liopoil (slight bussing yesterday).

[yuma]

Teproc:

As teproc himself pointed out he was not on either of the two lynch wagons.

I'll add in my case on him from day2 here to reference: which is basically that he admitted to ichimaru's case being good on him, as well as some points from ichimaru himself...

I will point out something that some people appear to find this scummy, but I am not so sure I do, of trying to keep people in the lynch pool... teproc expresses dislike of both me and ichimaru receiving day1 passes--me for my absence, which I admit wasn't really needed--and ichimaru for him being new. I think it is something scum can do--hence why I am including it--but isn't necessarily the scumtell people think it is I think.

Out of the three I have looked at Teproc has had the best reads thus far: He expressed town reads on: voltaire, lekkit, chairs, faust quite early and his scum reads actually include people still in the game: liopoil, robz and ichimaru but these changed rather dramatically toward the end of day...

I think the main point against Teproc is one that is actually kinda a point in favor for him... that is it can be looked at both ways. He strongly defends faust and ashersky both day1 and day2. As I said before that is a tactic that can be used by scum (see me in Wibbley Wobbly against voltgloss) or town (see me on faust in Toy Story). He is never really swayed by any of the arguments presented or by the claims that faust makes

day2: see my case against him up above.

I have noticed that some people are referencing the final vote count from day2 to talk about teproc... I'll do the same:

ashersky (6): Robz(?), Voltaire(t), Lekkit(t), Liopoil(?), 2.71828(t), ashersky(t)
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin(?), chairs(t), mail-mi(?), yuma

So from what I am seeing here is that unless both robz and liopoil are scum partners at least one player needed to be bussing teproc for teproc to be scum--we have determined the mafia has to be 3 yes due to the PRs that have been claimed, flipped? I don't think that is much of a stretch myself... but if both are actually town then Teproc would need to be double bussed? That is more significant and would mean from my perspective that the team would be teproc, ichimaru and mail-mi.... and wouldn't be my first choice for a scumteam... So maybe that makes him less of a lynch candidate for today.

Day3: He has defended Robz, He has done somethings that I found to be scummy, i.e. trying to manipulate the flavor claim to make me look bad... the reaction to the liopoil situation, he could possibly fit the bill of a player who anticipated lekkit's claim--he said so himself at one point--(he had a townread on 2.7 and a slight scum read on voltaire btw), but that doens't mean he is scum as I had the same reaction... so that is more null than scummy.

he has stated he wants to lynch one of: me, mail-mi and ichimaru...

So I do read him kinda scummy, but not at the same level as robz or mail-mi and is a player that I think will benefit from having other flips first, I think...

If he is scum I could see him as partners with: robz and possibly mail-mi. Not ichimaru I am thinking.... didn't see much interaction with liopoil....

[2.71828.....]

Goko is actually powered by Forum Games posts.  Recent server issues are entirely due to those gerbils not being active enough in their mafia games, damn it.

Man, I feel guilty about this game now.  Doing a reread now.  thoughts later after I catch up.  I am a little behind right now.

[2.71828.....]

Town: Lekkit, 2.7, Voltaire - Totally believe the claim
mild town: Yuma
mild scum: Robz, Teproc
Stronger scum: Ichimaru, liopoil, mail-mi

I just reread all of Ichimaru and he comes off a lot townier than I thought he would.  His reads have not always been the best, but they really feel like honest town reads to me.  I do not view him as "stronger scum" anymore.  I actually fit him more as "mild town." 

liopoil up next.

[2.71828.....]

liopoil up next.

And by "next" I mean tomorrow.  I will also do mail-mi, and then I will reevaluate from there.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok just checking in. I'm happy with my vote on mail-mi for now--though I could also vote Teproc and possibly Robz. Though he's currently the largest wagon, I don't think that lynch is gonna happen right now.
Still undecided on Lio right now, but I'm leaning town on him.

How is just ignoring a vote on you normally read, town or scum? Cause I'm definitely leaning scum on mail-mi. I still haven't posted a larger case yet, but still.

Let's see. Deadline ends the 15th I think.

It'd be nice to hear a little more from Lekkit. I mean his claim was super helpful and everything. Did he post something about being busy for a few days or something?

Anyway, I'll be back tomorrow. Hopefully with a larger case on mail-mi.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 3.4

teproc (1): mail-mi
Robz888 (2) Liopoil, voltaire
mail-mi (1) Ichimaru Gin


Not Voting (5): teproc, Robz, Lekkit, 2.71828, yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday, January 15th at 8 pm

[liopoil]

can we just lynch robz now?

[yuma]

can we just lynch robz now?

how bout we at least wait until we hear from our two other quasi ICs--2.7 and lekkit--and robz as well now that I think of it...

what's the big rush? you normally like to take it slow...

[liopoil]

no rush, people who aren't sure who they want to lynch should take their time. I'm just impatient because I'm pretty much sure of who I want to lynch. People shouldn't care about me being impatient of course, so yeah, ignore me.

Usually I'm much more undecided.

[Lekkit]

I'll be getting to this tomorrow for real. Between lack of sleep and the forums being down, I haven't really felt up to this.

[Voltaire]

yuma is now out of my lynch pool today. He sheeped all of my reads/reasoning that I didn't post. Maybe I hinted at stuff, but man. We are thinking the same way.

I would also lynch Robz or mail-mi. I'd rather lynch Robz though.

[Robz888]

Uh, I'm behind. Sorry, I know that's not helping, and I'm not helping. Is there something I should do, or answer, other than re-read and give reads?

[yuma]

Uh, I'm behind. Sorry, I know that's not helping, and I'm not helping. Is there something I should do, or answer, other than re-read and give reads?

I think focusing on those last two followed up by responses to points/cases against you would be most beneficial in that order.... same goes for mail-mi where ever he is...

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yeah. I'm only able to get this page to load periodically. Still haven't done a full case on mail-mi, been a pretty hectic weekend.
How long are these problems with the forum going to last?

[mail-mi]

responses to points/cases against you would be most beneficial

can i have a full case to respond to? because i don't see one.

[yuma]

focusing on those last two (re-read and reads) followed up by responses to points/cases against you would be most beneficial in that order....

can i have a full case to respond to? because i don't see one.

I fixed my quote for you....

I think if you re-read and give reads you find some points to address. I don't think there is a specific post with a case against you.... nor do i think there needs to be one for you to respond

[2.71828.....]

I have pretty slow internet where I am right now.

However, I reread mail-mi.  And I kind of like a mail-mi lynch right now.  First of all, if liopoil is town, he did not vote for a single scum (or even have scum on his lynch radar) any of D1 or D2.  (some votes and reads here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here)  He has voted Voltaire, Ashersky, chairs, liopoil, e, then eevee.  He was especially adamant about Voltaire D1 in a pretty bad case (in my opinion).  I think that is a pretty scummy voting history.  And if he flips scum, I could easily seeing Teproc (his new lynch person judging by this and this) being town.  But I don't want to count on anything like that because there is such a narrow lynch pool, I could see scum talking overnight about who each of them will come out and target.  I think mail-mi drew Teproc, and that is why he has been very focused there.  D1 target- Voltaire.  D2 target- liopoil maybe?, D3 target- Teproc.  Maybe that is town, but I think it is scum.

[2.71828.....]

responses to points/cases against you would be most beneficial

can i have a full case to respond to? because i don't see one.

And this is a great move for scum. "case? what case?  I haven't done anything wrong...."

Unfortunately, all of our scum probably can say similar things.  They have done a good job so far being undetected. 

[2.71828.....]

vote: mail-mi

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: mail-mi

Oh yeah!
+1 for the profile picture. It looks good.

[yuma]

responses to points/cases against you would be most beneficial

can i have a full case to respond to? because i don't see one.

And this is a great move for scum. "case? what case?  I haven't done anything wrong...."

This is a good point.

I'll vote: mail-mi right now, but I may move it depending on his reaction or robz's reaction once both/either of them catch up. but I really think it doesn't matter which one we lynch first as I kinda expect they are both scum.

[liopoil]

responses to points/cases against you would be most beneficial

can i have a full case to respond to? because i don't see one.

And this is a great move for scum. "case? what case?  I haven't done anything wrong...."

This is a good point.

I'll vote: mail-mi right now, but I may move it depending on his reaction or robz's reaction once both/either of them catch up. but I really think it doesn't matter which one we lynch first as I kinda expect they are both scum.

I agree that most likely both are scum, but the way I see it Robz is more likely. You just never know for sure with mail-mi I think. At least, I never get too confident with him. I've horribly misread him both ways before.

[2.71828.....]

lio, what do you think of the fact that (I assume you believe yourself to be town) mail-mi only voted and targeted town members D1 and D2?

[liopoil]

I think it's scummy and I do think that mail-mi is scum. I'm just more confident about robz.

[mail-mi]

lio, what do you think of the fact that (I assume you believe yourself to be town) mail-mi only voted and targeted town members D1 and D2?

yes i had terrible reads this game. I, as scum, would know that this would be looked back on as scummy, and would have voted for a partner OR not killed all the town I've voted for.

[2.71828.....]

All right, what are we doing here.

We have 9 people.  3 scum.  Lekkit, myself, and Voltaire are quasi-IC based on believing Lekkit.  I think one of the scum is mail-mi.  Liopoil thinks one of the scum is Robz.  Those are the top two lynch choices right now it seems like.

Could everyone put down a summary of your thoughts on each of those two people?  We need something to at least start discussion back up.  Stalling out is 1) in scum's favor and 2) not very fun. 

[yuma]

All right, what are we doing here.

We have 9 people.  3 scum.  Lekkit, myself, and Voltaire are quasi-IC based on believing Lekkit.  I think one of the scum is mail-mi.  Liopoil thinks one of the scum is Robz.  Those are the top two lynch choices right now it seems like.

Could everyone put down a summary of your thoughts on each of those two people?  We need something to at least start discussion back up.  Stalling out is 1) in scum's favor and 2) not very fun.

I think most of us have thoughts down already and we are waiting for robz and mail-mi to respond and re-read and give reads.... until that happens we are going to be at a standstill....

[2.71828.....]

All right, what are we doing here.

We have 9 people.  3 scum.  Lekkit, myself, and Voltaire are quasi-IC based on believing Lekkit.  I think one of the scum is mail-mi.  Liopoil thinks one of the scum is Robz.  Those are the top two lynch choices right now it seems like.

Could everyone put down a summary of your thoughts on each of those two people?  We need something to at least start discussion back up.  Stalling out is 1) in scum's favor and 2) not very fun.

I think most of us have thoughts down already and we are waiting for robz and mail-mi to respond and re-read and give reads.... until that happens we are going to be at a standstill....

then lets just lynch one of them.  I say mail-mi, you prefer Robz.  I will look back at your post you had about Robz to see why

[2.71828.....]

vote count 2.7

teproc (1) mail-mi
Robz888 (2) Liopoil, voltaire
mail-mi (2) Ichimaru Gin, 2.7

Not Voting (4): teproc, Robz, Lekkit, yuma

[yuma]

I am voting for mail-mi.... see about 5 posts up

[Voltaire]

I will happily lynch Robz or mail-mi. I honestly don't know which I prefer. Let me think about it.

[Voltaire]

lio, what do you think of the fact that (I assume you believe yourself to be town) mail-mi only voted and targeted town members D1 and D2?

yes i had terrible reads this game. I, as scum, would know that this would be looked back on as scummy, and would have voted for a partner OR not killed all the town I've voted for.

Everyone else, is this true? mail-mi bussed his partners in HP but I can't remember if he did in KCGM. Wait I do remember. He didn't because it was a 2-man team. He bussed in 3-man. Also mail-mi isn't voting Robz and Robz isn't voting. OK yeah, totally cool with lynching them.

[Teproc]

I had started a mail-mi reread yesterday but got distracted by the RMM12 stuff, so I'll finish that today.

As I said, I don't like the Robz lynch, and I don't fully understand it. Reading yuma's post, it seems like most of it is based on a mail-mi/robz scum team. The only strong argument for Robz's scumminess I see there is his tunneling on ash day 2. I read that as town!Robz, but I get how it could be seen as scummy. There are other things that point to town!Robz though.

yuma/Voltaire, why do you think of Robz's reaction to the faust claim ? Obviously you disagree with my analysis, but I'm curious why.

PPE : 4

[Teproc]

Oh yuma's voting for mail-mi, I thought he was voting Robz for some reason. That makes more sense.

[2.71828.....]

vote count 2.7fixed

teproc (1) mail-mi
Robz888 (2) Liopoil, voltaire
mail-mi (3) Ichimaru Gin, 2.7, yuma

Not Voting (3): teproc, Robz, Lekkit

[yuma]

I will happily lynch Robz or mail-mi. I honestly don't know which I prefer. Let me think about it.

this is me and ultimately i want to hear from both before making a final decision. deadline is thursday, we aren't dying for time. stalling isn't ideal, but we do need to hear from them even if it means waiting a bit...

plus i want to still hear from lekki.

[Voltaire]

yuma/Voltaire, why do you think of Robz's reaction to the faust claim ? Obviously you disagree with my analysis, but I'm curious why.

Honestly strange ie townie. That requires me to think that there was no scum on ash, though (because I'm currently operating as though lio is town), which is...possible I guess. Actually who pointed out mail-mi's horribly scummy attitude about ash? Said was town, then thought scummy, never voted, was off-wagon? mail-mi first I say.

vote: mail-mi. That's L-1 everyone.

[2.71828.....]

I'll be getting to this tomorrow for real. Between lack of sleep and the forums being down, I haven't really felt up to this.

Hopefully we will here from Lekkit today

[Voltaire]

yuma/Voltaire, why do you think of Robz's reaction to the faust claim ? Obviously you disagree with my analysis, but I'm curious why.

Honestly strange ie townie. That requires me to think that there was no scum on ash, though (because I'm currently operating as though lio is town), which is...possible I guess. Actually who pointed out mail-mi's horribly scummy attitude about ash? Said was town, then thought scummy, never voted, was off-wagon? mail-mi first I say.

vote: mail-mi. That's L-1 everyone.

This does make yuma and ichi scum, which is...unlikely in my mind. No wait Teproc could be the other scum. But then the double-bussing thing. Um um um hmm. Well, I could be wrong on Robz or mail-mi.

I need to stop overthinking something I have a 50% of getting right by blind luck.

[Teproc]

I mean... there's really no such thing as overthinking here, or at least not if you'd rather take a 50/50 shot. The odds are even better for me, but I also feel like something is wrong, because a yuma/Ichimaru/mail-mi scum team looks weird to me. If only because the first two would be bussing the first right now.

Let's reread mail-mi. His day 1 wasn't even as scummy as I expected, but maybe day 2 will be better/worse.

[Voltaire]

unvote.

[2.71828.....]

See, I think scum want to bus today for town cred, and I think that they discussed who they would target (if viable) in advance last night.  So Ichi gets mail-mi, mail-mi gets Teproc.  Something along those lines. 

I mean, whoever we lynch, we cannot give passes out because of when they voted or anything like that.  Scum have the advantage right now, and can afford to participate in lynching their own if that means we think they are town.

[Voltaire]

Right, scum will definitely bus today. I'm talking "weird" as in, when I re-read the thread thinking that is the team, it doesn't seem likely.

Which probably means it's the team.

[Teproc]

Why would scum know they'd have to bus last night ? The lynch pool was much larger at the start of the day than it is now.

Of course NOW they know they pretty much have to bus. But I doubt they planned it at all.

[Voltaire]

Why would scum know they'd have to bus last night ? The lynch pool was much larger at the start of the day than it is now.

Of course NOW they know they pretty much have to bus. But I doubt they planned it at all.

Yes, this. Scum came into today thinking they were golden.

[Voltaire]

If lio is truly town, and our ICs are truly town...

Day 1 Final Vote Count
2.7... (1): Robz
Eevee (3):  2.7..., faust, Teproc
liopoil (1): chairs
faust (7): ashersky, Lekkit, liopoil, Ichimaru Gin, yuma, Eevee, mail-mi
mail-mi (1): Voltaire

Day 2 Final Vote Count
ashersky (6): Robz, Voltaire, Lekkit, Liopoil, 2.71828, ashersky
Teproc (4): Ichimaru Gin, chairs, mail-mi, yuma

Not Voting (1): teproc

I think Teproc has to be town as well. Because this means that if Teproc were scum, scum never pushed the ash wagon when one developed on their scum partners. Do you see what I'm saying? Robz was on ash with me from the start of the day, before the Teproc wagon got going.

There are a lot of assumptions in this post, but I think if you make the first one the rest have to follow, more or less.

So this puts the scum in mail-mi/Robz/yuma/Ichi. That seems reasonable.

[Voltaire]

I think I am going to vote for mail-mi because he is scum in many of my scenarios, even ones where I am wrong about lio/Teproc etc.

[Voltaire]

Why would scum know they'd have to bus last night ? The lynch pool was much larger at the start of the day than it is now.

Of course NOW they know they pretty much have to bus. But I doubt they planned it at all.

Yes, this. Scum came into today thinking they were golden.

Which means there would be very little risk in lio risking creating an IC. Since this was before Lekkit.

Hmmm. I think my lio towncred is very flawed. Something like lio/Teproc/X is plausible, for example.

[Teproc]

Why would scum know they'd have to bus last night ? The lynch pool was much larger at the start of the day than it is now.

Of course NOW they know they pretty much have to bus. But I doubt they planned it at all.

Yes, this. Scum came into today thinking they were golden.

Which means there would be very little risk in lio risking creating an IC. Since this was before Lekkit.

I don't follow ?

[Voltaire]

I am clearly overthinking this now. vote: mail-mi and I'm done for today, unless I need to change my vote to someone else we like.

[Teproc]

Meaning : I don't understand what you're saying here. Why does liopoil looks scummy when considering scum didn't know about the reduced lynch pool going into day 3 ?

[Voltaire]

I don't follow ?

Coming into today, there were 9 alive (3 scum) and pretty much every single town member was a viable mislynch. So if lio is scum, there was little risk in maybe turning e into an IC with his flavor-catch if it also bought lio towncred. This all happened before Lekkit's claim, which was the game-changer that swung this game back towards town (I think/hope).

[Voltaire]

Meaning : I don't understand what you're saying here. Why does liopoil looks scummy when considering scum didn't know about the reduced lynch pool going into day 3 ?

He doesn't look scummy, I just think my giving him towncred was based on a flawed premise. He's much more null in reality than I have been thinking, I now believe.

[Voltaire]

I'm Xiaqiao. Town Hider. I've hid behind 2.7 and Voltaire. In that order. They are both town.

Okay. Between this and mod error, I think e is town now.

This is also mail-mi's reaction to the Lekkit claim. Just giving the towncred to e, not to Lekkit or myself.

[Robz888]

Okay, I have re-read.

Vote: Mail-mi, because he is the most scummy suspect, and because I am the alternative lynch.

[Teproc]

So, mail-mi reread.

Day 1 looks innocuous enough. I could copy/paste my notes on it but the only things that stood out were :

- some light buddying of me. It stops after day 1 though, maybe because he saw it wasn't working (he was my preferred lynch at the end of day 1 after I changed my mind about 2.7). In fact it doesn't only stop, his first mention of me day 2 is to mention I'm scummy for not posting as much. I'm not sure what it means as far as his alignement goes so meh.

- #685 : When Voltaire tries to rally support for a mail-mi lynch, he reminds people of Voltaire's bias against him and says town loses when they mislynch him. The latter is "semi-serious" which is also scummy. Being "semi-serious" is maybe fine at the very beginning of the game when the line between RVS and the actual game is blurry, but after that, you're either joking or making a point, not somewhere in between. Scum loves to maintain ambiguity like that, especially if it's to raise a very weak meta argument against his lynch like he did there. I just don't think town!mail-mi would have felt the need to bring this up with very little pressure on him. This is the post that made me want to lynch him on day 1, and it's still scummy now.

- His vote moves around a lot towards the end, before finally landing on faust. That's not particulalry scummy to me. His hammer on faust is a little weird because he previously stated that (paraphrasing here) faust lied and it was bad, but not scummy bad. It was very close to deadline though, and faust was going to be the lynch no matter what at that point.

Day 2 is where it gets more interesting though. He starts off by voting e, restating the reasons he had on day 1 (e's vote on chairs late day 1, which was pretty weird). He then sheeps yuma into voting me, which I would find scummy because I still don't entirely get that case, except chairs does the exact same thing in the post just above (#1363 and #1364 for reference).

What looks really bad though, is his last post of the day (#1427), which states that he is now fine with lynching ash. This after saying repeatedly that ash's certainty on day 1 was just normal town!ash. While he acknowledges that his opinion has changed, he downplays it by saying it changed "slightly". For reference :

The 23rd? Wow, I should post now. Im in the same boat as teproc with my caught up-ness.

Wel anyway.... Lynch order:

E>>>>>>>liopoil>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ash.

this is just normal ash.

Going from this to "fine with voting" is not a "slight" change by any stretch of the imagination.

vote: mail-mi

Not a real vote because we need time for Robz, Lekkit and mail-mi to post before we end the day, but I'm fine with a mail-mi lynch.

[Voltaire]

Okay, I have re-read.

Vote: Mail-mi, because he is the most scummy suspect, and because I am the alternative lynch.

Cool. That's hammer. Awesome.

[Teproc]

Uh, that was the hammer right ?

[Voltaire]

Lekkit, I hope you know what you're doing with your hiding. Fingers crossed on the flip.

[Voltaire]

Uh, that was the hammer right ?

And scummy as **** if mail-mi flips town, so hopefully it was Robz hammering his partner in an attempt at cred.

[Robz888]

Uh, that was the hammer right ?

And scummy as **** if mail-mi flips town, so hopefully it was Robz hammering his partner in an attempt at cred.

Don't I know it, but I can't really taker the chance that you change your mind and switch everyone to me. You've flip flopped already on that.

[Voltaire]

Uh, that was the hammer right ?

And scummy as **** if mail-mi flips town, so hopefully it was Robz hammering his partner in an attempt at cred.

Don't I know it, but I can't really taker the chance that you change your mind and switch everyone to me. You've flip flopped already on that.

If you're town, you did the right thing, yes.

[Robz888]

Yeah, I mean I'm banking on mail-mi flipping scum here, but that seems exceedingly likely.

[mcmcsalot]

Thread locked, will process flip at 5 after work.

[mcmcsalot]

Day Three Final Vote Count

teproc (1): mail-mi
Robz888 (1) Liopoil
mail-mi (5) Ichimaru Gin, 2.71828, yuma, Voltaire, Robz


Not Voting (2): teproc, Lekkit

With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

Mail-mi, The Great Gan Ning a Vanilla Townie has been slain!

[mcmcsalot]

Night 3 has begun and will last till January 15th at 8pm

[mcmcsalot]

Night 3 has ended!

Voltaire, was killed in the night, he was Sun Quan, a vanilla townie.

Day 4 begins!

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 4.0

Not Voting (7): teproc, Robz, Lekkit, 2.71828, yuma, ichimaru gin, liopoil

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline: Sunday, January 26th at 8 pm

[Teproc]

I'm a little paranoid, so I went and checked if there was a possible situation where scum would have Lekkit fakeclaim Hider.

1) They wouldn't do it if their team is Goon/Bus Driver/JOAT because they don't know that much about the setup in that case (that's the 2 or 0 Ts possibilities)
2) If the scum team is Goon/Goon/JOAT (ie 4 Ts), if they assume no Serial Killer because, well, they have good reason to, they're looking at 4 possibilities :
- TTTTIPR : Only PR left is a Doctor or Jailkeeper
- TTTTIKR : Only PR left is a Vigilante or Vengeful
- TTTTIIR : Only PR left is a One-Shot Tracker
- TTTTIHR : Only PR left is a Hider

None of the above 3 would have good reasons to out themselves. A Vigilante is somewhat unlikely, but there's no way of knowing if there's a Vengeful somewhere, so I'd say all of these are equally possible in the eyes of scum at that point (day 2, but they would have talked about it night 2 obviously). So if they fakeclaim Hider, it's a 25% chance of being counterclaimed.

I wouldn't take that risk as scum when things were already going pretty well, so I'm still in full belief of Lekkit's claim. Which means I have a 3/4 chance of hitting scum. Given how terrible my reads have been this game, I certainly need that to get it right...

I'm not sure what to think of Robz's hammer. It's scummy, but my previous arguments for his towniness still look valid to me. I have a bad gut feeling about yuma, but after mail-mi flipped town, I'm not sure what to think anymore.

Oh, and it case it wasn't obvious, we're in lylo. Quickhammering is difficult for scumand probably too risky but still, be careful with your votes.

[2.71828.....]

I was pretty confident about mail-mi, and it feels pretty awful to be wrong like that. 

Also, the Voltaire flip is just additional evidence that Lekkit was telling the truth.

Big question now: Did Lekkit risk hiding again to confirm another town member (doubtful) or play it a little safer. 

[Teproc]

I mean, it would be awesome if he did that, but the risk would have been way too high so it's unlikely.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I mean, it would be awesome if he did that, but the risk would have been way too high so it's unlikely.

I agree. If he had been successful, it would have outed someone else from the pool. But man, if he had hid wrong, it would have cost us the game. Either way, the important thing is that he's alive.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also.
The new semester starts this tuesday for me. So I will have a lot less time than before.
I've condensed my schedule onto three days + some online courses.

But I won't be able to post much during the middle of the week--tue, wed, thu.

[Lekkit]

I did not gamble the whole outcome of the game. I did not hide.

Also, how is it important that I'm alive?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well if you were dead--it would most likely mean that we lost the game. That's why.

[Robz888]

A reminder, I'm mostly VLA until Sunday.

I don't see how yuma could possibly not be scum, at this point.

[2.71828.....]

I did not gamble the whole outcome of the game. I did not hide.

Also, how is it important that I'm alive?

I don't think it is too surprising.  Because of the risk of using your ability, you basically play as a VT the rest of game.  So scum have no real reason to NK you over any other VT, and killing you just confirms your play all the more (even though I totally trust you)

[Teproc]

Yeah, it was pretty obvious that scum was going to kill one of Voltaire or e because that gets rid of an IC while still leaving the possibility that Lekkit is fakeclaiming.

Wasn't it yuma that tried to argue that Lekkit might get night killed ? That might have been in the context of a correct lynch day 3 though.

[liopoil]

Guys, robz is super obvscum. we can't not lynch him today. I'm tempted to vote now, but I'll hold off.

[liopoil]

And this is why I didn't want to lynch mail-mi. I thought he was scum, but like I said, you can never be sure with mail-mi. Also, robz is scum.

[Robz888]

And this is why I didn't want to lynch mail-mi. I thought he was scum, but like I said, you can never be sure with mail-mi. Also, robz is scum.

^Scumtell.

[liopoil]

Since I think it more likely that we'll mislynch someone else than it is we'll mislynch me, I'm making it either me or robz888. If I'm wrong, sorry town, but there's no way I was going to be persuaded otherwise.

Vote: Robz888

[Robz888]

Woah woah woah woah. You should really unvote man. Making it you vs. me is exactly what scum yuma wants, and if it's yuma, Ichi, and Teproc you're blowing! Please unvote.

[liopoil]

I realize it means we could lose right away if it's yuma, ichi and Teproc. But, I doubt that this is the case enough that there really is no way I'm ever going to be convinced it's more likely one of them is scum than it is you are scum. I'm going to be making that vote eventually, and I'd rather it be now so that somebody doesn't go and vote for one of those three people.

[Robz888]

No one is going ahead and just voting for someone, except for you. I mean if oyu are really overwhelmingly persuaded that Lekkit and 2.7 are ICs, we should like definitely give them a chance to have a bigger impact on this day.

[2.71828.....]

First of all, I do not like the vote.  It takes 4 to lynch, 3 of them can be scum.  ANY vote on a town member can quickly become a lynch for scum.  I think that voting this early, while possibly not scummy, is not in town's best interest. 

Right now, I would say Lekkit and I are town. 

I think liopoil gets some pretty good town points for bringing up the mod error D3. 

Right now I think that Ichimaru seems like scum. 

Yuma- I can't really think about too much on the top of my head.  need a reread.  I need to be refreshed on why Yuma is scum according to some. 

I am also very wary of Robz.  His reads are really good as town as far as I can tell (especially based on my experience in Chocolate Factory).  I just don't know what to think about Robz right now after his hammer. 

Uh, that was the hammer right ?

And scummy as **** if mail-mi flips town, so hopefully it was Robz hammering his partner in an attempt at cred.

Don't I know it, but I can't really taker the chance that you change your mind and switch everyone to me. You've flip flopped already on that.

If you're town, you did the right thing, yes.

Voltaire says here that town!Robz did the correct thing hammering, and I mean, I convinced myself mail-mi was scum, Voltaire was convinced enough to put him at L-1.  I think Ichi and Yuma are the scummiest in the wagon.  Ichi starting it, Yuma following up on a quasi-IC.  But the Robz hammer is really WIFOM.  I need to do a full reread of Robz.  (if anyone else wants to do it please do, my schedule is much more limited than it has been previously)

Teproc- I need to do a reread here. 

[yuma]

Guys, robz is super obvscum. we can't not lynch him today. I'm tempted to vote now, but I'll hold off.

I agree with this. I won't say he should have been the lynch yesterday, but I will say mail-mi was at the least lynched prematurely. I am partially to blame for this having my vote on mail-mi (which is where I wanted it at the time) but I anticipated no one being lynched until mail-mi and Robz and Lekkit responded in full... so i was surprised to see that voltaire gave robz the opportunity to hammer by putting mail-mi to L-1 when he did...

Basically I am ready at this point to vote for Robz... I don't anticipate voting anywhere else today. But given how yesterday went down I will not be placing a vote of any kind until at the very least Robz gives a defense of points brought up yesterday and any new points brought up today and lekkit has a chance to say more than a few words.... I think liopoil should unvote as well even if he is certain. His vote he says is to:

I'm going to be making that vote eventually, and I'd rather it be now so that somebody doesn't go and vote for one of those three people.

But his vote does nothing to stop a vote for teproc, ichimaru or me except for himself.... so I don't understand his logic here.

[liopoil]

The point is now that a townie voting for someone not robz or I is silly because one of us must be scum. well, I guess it doesn't quite work like that, but it certainly discourages people from voting for someone else a bit at least.

[liopoil]

can we just lynch robz now?

everyone has posted, so I'm assuming no more PR claims today... I see no reason to prolong the day except to get reads from lekkit and e. Maybe other people too, though I doubt anyone besides e or lekkit will be dying tonight.

Here, I'll put my reads out there, in the form of chance of being scum:

Robz: 95%
yuma: 70%
Teproc: 55%
Ichimaru gin: 45%
lekkit: 10%
e: 5%
liopoil: 0%

rounded to the nearest 5%, because yeah I don't know how one could get that exact. lekkit and e are probably even lower. Teproc and Ichimaru gin I need to reread eventually, but not yet I don't! Yuma is scummy because in a vacuum Teproc and ichimaru are slight town, so I doubt both are scum.

Also, once robz flips scum all this could change once we look at interactions with him.

If people are hesitant to lynch robz I can make a case, but really, I think it should be pretty obvious.

[Robz888]

I know I'm scummy just by virtue of still being alive... but why does this not apply to yuma? I honestly don't see the argument for why I am scummier than he is. He's gotten away with being much more muted this game than usual, I mean certainly because of legitimate VLAs, but we didn't see typical townie leader major threat yuma, and he's in the pool where we know tere are scum, and he is still alive.

I am also very wary of Robz.  His reads are really good as town as far as I can tell (especially based on my experience in Chocolate Factory).  I just don't know what to think about Robz right now after his hammer.

My reads aren't especially good, and like all reads, they are garbage early game. But this is the late game, and I am good in the late game, that much I know. I'm good at putting it together when we are down to things. Unfortunately I wasn't listened to last time--EVEN WHEN I WAS COFIRMED TOWN--so I don't see how I'm going to persuade anyone this time. But in any case, yuma HAS to be scum. He's exhibiting all the charatceristics I used to catch Voltaire in Chocolate Factory.

As for the hammer, well yeah, I had to hammer mail-mi, because I was the alternative, and I was definitely town, whereas mail-mi had a high likelihood of being scum. It was a purely mathematical move. I was okay with getting lynched and going down for the town's greater good in Chocolate Factory, and that failed miserably, so I wasn't doing that again.

[Robz888]

I think liopoil must also be scum, but that's not really important, because we lose unless we lynch scum. So we have to lynch the most certain scum, and that scum is yuma.

[Teproc]

You're not scummy by virtue of being alive, you're summy by virtue of your hammer on mail-mi. You even acknowledged it in twilight !

Why does yuma being alive make him particularly scummy, because he gets NKed by scum usually ? I disagree with that, since N1 they went PR hunting (succesfully), N2 they shot the claimed Tracker, N3 they shot an IC.

I do agree with him being less present than usual though, which is scummy.

Off to reread. I guess my job is easy, I just have to find the one guy who's town among the four of you.

[Teproc]

In the meantime, shouldn't we flavor claim ? I guess it's up to 2.7 and Lekkit, but it can't really cost us much right ? I doubt it'll be particularly useful but we should maybe do it just in case, especially since it seems like there are a lot of people who were anti-claim (myself included) in the lynch pool (everyone except Robz basically).

[liopoil]

isn't it still possible that we have PRs?? heck, we could have a SK! We could have two more PRs!

so no, flavorclaim still isn't worth it.

[Teproc]

We have established that flavour doesn't relate to PRness. And it is highly doubtful that we have a SK with THREE 1 kill nights.

[liopoil]

robz, do you not realize that if you're town, and lekkit is town, then either I'm scum or scum can quickhammer? I don't see how you can think that yuma is more likely scum than me.

the being alive late in the game doesn't really apply - there was no way either of you were getting NKed last night anyway.

Highly doubtful, yes, but for all we know we could have a doctor/jailkeeper.

[Teproc]

A Doctor/Jailkeeper who has been succesful three times (well, some of those could have been crossfire with the mafia) and hasn't come forward to clear someone ? I mean sure, there are scenarios in which it's possible, but it's very unlikely.

And I'm not sure what the likelihood of a SK has to do with flavour claiming anyway.

[2.71828.....]

isn't it still possible that we have PRs?? heck, we could have a SK! We could have two more PRs!

so no, flavorclaim still isn't worth it.

This is ridiculous.  There is no way (well, not mathematically impossible, but I mean, it just isnt that case) we have two more PRs, and the simple fact that liopoil thinks this makes me think he is much scummier

[Teproc]

isn't it still possible that we have PRs?? heck, we could have a SK! We could have two more PRs!

so no, flavorclaim still isn't worth it.

This is ridiculous.  There is no way (well, not mathematically impossible, but I mean, it just isnt that case) we have two more PRs, and the simple fact that liopoil thinks this makes me think he is much scummier

Why ? We could have two more PRs, like a Vengeful and a Doctor. If the Doctor never targeted anyone relevant, he has no reason to claim. One-Shot Commuter is also a possibility that would have no particular reason to claim either.

In any case, I think this is not a thing we should be talking about. I don't think much good can come out of it for town, we're only giving info to scum here.

[2.71828.....]

isn't it still possible that we have PRs?? heck, we could have a SK! We could have two more PRs!

so no, flavorclaim still isn't worth it.

This is ridiculous.  There is no way (well, not mathematically impossible, but I mean, it just isnt that case) we have two more PRs, and the simple fact that liopoil thinks this makes me think he is much scummier

Because if he is a VT, for this to be true, myself and town!somebody both have to be PRs.  I want liopoil to full claim.  I want him to say his flavor, whether he is VT, scum (wishful thinking), or a PR.  I mean, trying to throw us down this rabbit trail is ridiculous.  We know the setup now.  We rolled 3 PRs, so scum have a Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT.  Simple as that. 

In fact, I want everyone to flavor claim.  Liopoil is the only one who needs to tell us if he is VT, PR, or scum, but I want everyone to give their flavor.  If you guys want to wait to see if Lekkit thinks similarly that is fine, but that is where I stand.

PPE: 1

[Teproc]

As I said, I agree with this. I am Han Dang (Wu / Red)

[Teproc]

I think if we're making liopoil fullclaim, we should make everyone fullclaim actually, and let the ICs decide of the order in which we do it.

[Robz888]

I am Huang Gai.

I am also on a train with limited access.

[Teproc]

After doing a full reread of liopoil/Robz/yuma/Ichimaru, here's what I think.

Taking a look at the liopoil wagon on day 1. It was initially driven by Robz who noticed liopoil behaving in the same way that he did in Toy Story, where he was Robz's scummbuddy. yuma hops on the wagon third, saying we need a wagon, and Ichimaru peaks the wagon at L-2, pretty much sheeping Robz (notably using very similar turn of phrases)

Then Robz unvotes, saying both liopoil and mail-mi are both "too easy". I know for a fact that one of them at least is scum, so is it a bus that worked a little too well, or an attempt at a mislynch ?

If it's a bus, the third partner (yuma or Ichi) is also on wagon. In that case, yuma would be more likely since he's earlier on the wagon. Ichimaru is less likely because I assume one of the things a partner would have said to him night 0 is that bussing day 1 is generally a bad idea. Putting your partner at L-2 is pretty risky business, not something I see scum!Ichimaru doing.

If Robz is town, then the other three are scum, and both yuma and Ichimaru bussed liopoil. Again, I don't see the Ichimaru bus happening here.

Based on this, I don't think Ichimaru and liopoil can realistically be scum together, which means Robz and yuma are scum. liopoil has been more townie this game, so the scum team I see as the most likely coming out of this wagon is Robz/yuma/Ichimaru.

Once I got there, the game made a lot of sense to me, so I reread the rest of the thread with that scum team in mind.

Day 2, I think scum identified ash as an easy mislynch because of the faust flip. Right out of the gates, Robz and Ichimaru are all about ash's scumminess. Ichimaru doesn't actually vote for ash, but what he does is put 2.7 at L-1 without announcing L-1. In that post post though, he is still saying that ash is scummy for his overconfidence on day 1.

In fact, Ichi's whole behavior regarding ash is scummy, and I'm surprised no one (myself included) has picked up on that. He starts by pointing out how scummy it is that ash was 100% sure about a confirmed townie's scumminess, then says he doesn't want to vote for ash, and finallycomes around to voting for ash, even threatening to hammer by the end.

Based on this, Ichimaru seems like the most likely partner for Robz/yuma.

Those two (Robz and yuma) have very little interaction, except for this vote. After creating a wagon on me, yuma votes for Robz because he's unwilling to join it, ostensibly because Robz is tunneling on ash. This is a pretty safe vote (Robz only has one vote on him before this), and yuma switches to Lekkit pretty quickly. It can in fact be read as yuma trying to get Robz to join the wagon on me because, for whatever reason, yuma would rather lynch me than ash ? In any case, I found that vote pretty weird at the time (seemed more like a mail-mi vote than a yuma vote), and this seems like a reasonable explanation of it to me.

At this point, I would lynch Robz/yuma today, then lynch the other one tomorrow, and then let the poor soul left alive (might be me, actually, since 2.7 and Lekkit are the obvious NKs) to decide between liopoil and Ichimaru.

I'm not going to vote before we get all the claiming done, but I actually feel good about this game now, it finallymakes sense to me.

[Robz888]

^That's all pretty good, except that I'm not scum. Yuma definitely is, though, and Ichi probably is.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am Da Qiao (Kingdom of Wu).

[liopoil]

What the heck? I don't think we have any more PRs, just saying it's possible and a non-zero probability. I see nothing for us to gain via flavorclaim. I don't think it's been verified that flavor is completely unrealated to role, and I see nothing that town has to gain from my claim. I am in no way sending town on a wild goose chase, I don't even know what that would be.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I don't really see the benefit in it, but I thought everyone was doing this?

It seems like there's a small chance of outing scum based on flavor. I mean, maybe they mess up their alignment or something.

[Teproc]

Why are you so against a flavour claim ? Looking at Ichi and Robz's claim, I don't think it's going to be particularly useful but I don't see why you're so strongly against it. I highly doubt there's any reason for you not to flavour claim.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I could almost see this as scum trying to hint PR or something. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, but I think is still possible.
Like "Oh, are we *sure* that flavorclaim doesn't reveal PR-ness". Hmm. Scummy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So. I could see a Teproc/Robz/X scumteam. The way Teproc kinda flipped his feeling towards Robz (Post: 1719). After feeling kinda scummy about him for most of the game--this strikes me as scummy.

Out of my lynch pool of

Robz

Teproc

Yuma

Liopoil

Odds are there's only one town in that group. Unfortunately we can't afford to mislynch again--so we better choose carefully.

Although even semi-IC's can obviously be wrong, I generally trust their reads over the people in the lynch pool--as we know the majority of them to be scum. I think e's been doing a pretty good job of staying active, but Lekkit is still lurking.

Teproc and Robz are my top scumreads right now. Awhile ago, Teproc mentioned the lack of suspicion on Yuma, I find Yuma scummy for this.

Yuma is interesting, just because I feel like he's passed almost completely under everyone's radar. Is someone working on forming a case against him?


So in order of scummiest first I guess I'd go.

Teproc/Robz

Liopoil

Yuma

Yuma at the bottom I guess, because I haven't seen a real case against him yet.

[liopoil]

Most likely a flavorclaim wouldn't do anything, but that's not a reason to do it. I think it's more likely that it outs a PR/absence of PR than it outs scum. both are highly unlikely though. Especially if there somehow is a doc/JK and SK, that SK would love to know who that player is.

[Teproc]

This was my argument against flavour claiming day 1. Based on flips so far, it is clear that PRs are not distinguishable from VTs.

[liopoil]

Also, scum has not quickhammered, so this pretty much confirms for me that robz is scum. while all three haven't been online at the same time, I would expect a slow-mo quickhammer of sorts

[liopoil]

This was my argument against flavour claiming day 1. Based on flips so far, it is clear that PRs are not distinguishable from VTs.

Is it? show me.

[Teproc]

I guess I'm trusting Robz on this one, which yeah, he's probably scum, but I think lying about flavour is a little dangerous fr him to do. I asked him early day 3, and he said this :

Robz, do the flavor names we've gotten from flips so far confirm that flavor isn't indicative of PRness ?

I think, basically yes, flavor doesn't tell us much. I mean these characters are all generals in a war, they can all be vageuly rationalized in one way or another, like, "Oh, he kept his army safe--Doctor! Oh, he led an ambush unit, Hider!" Pang Tong feigned defection to Cao Cao's forces and advised him to chain his ships together, ostensibly to prevent seasickness but actually because this made it easier or the fire attack to destroy Cao Cao's navy. in our game he's the Tracker so... yeah I not much of a connection, it seems to me.

It's also certainly true that important flavor role does not equal PR. Or else Ash/Zhuge Liang would have been one.

I checked and what he said about Pang Tong is true. ash turned out not to be Zhuge Liang (that would be 2.7), so I guess we can disregard that.

Looking at the wiki for Lu Su, Eevee's flavour name, I see nothing indicating that he could be a Rolecop.

Oh, and Lekkit's flavour name was analyzed by Robz here :

I'm Xiaqiao. Town Hider. I've hid behind 2.7 and Voltaire. In that order. They are both town.

My mistake. Xiao Qiao is the wife of Zhou Yu, who is Commander-in-Chief of the Wu forces. Her twin sister is Da Qiao. They are known througout the land for their beauty.

Xiao Qiao knew Cao Cao, evil ruler of Wei, when they were both children. Legend states that he was still in love with her, and wished to take her and her sister back to his city after the battle, and put lock them inside a tower.

In the novel, Zhuge Liang, the Shu strategist, tricked Zhou Yu into supporting the war against Cao Cao by telling him that Cao Cao desired his wife, Xiao Qiao. From that moment on, Zhou Yu sweared that either he would die, or Cao Cao would die.

I'm not sure I see Hider in there anyway, but Xiao Qiao is more a Hider than a Role Cop or something, I guess.

[liopoil]

fair enough. I'm Tiashi Ci

[yuma]

I am Zhao Yun

[Teproc]

I don't think we get a lot out of it, but here's the summary in case it's useful :

yuma : Zhao Yun (Shu)
Robz : Huang Gai (Wu)
Ichimaru : Da Qiao (Wu)
liopoil : Taishi Ci (Wu)
Teproc : Han Dang (Wu)

2.7 : Zhuge Liang (Shu) : Town
Lekkit : Xiao Qiao (Wu) : Town Hider
Voltaire : Sun Quan (Wu) : Town Vanilla
mail-mi : The Great Gan Ning (Wu) : Town Vanilla
chairs : Pang Tong (Shu) : Town Tracker
ashersky : Zhang Fei (Shu) : Town Vanilla
Eevee : Lu Su (Wu) : Town Rolecop
faust : Lu Meng (Wu) : Town Vanilla

The only interesting thing I see is that Lekkit and Ichimaru are sisters, so maybe that's something that speaks in Ichimaru's favor ? Maybe Robz will have more to say but it looks like scum did have fakeclaims after all.

[Teproc]

That smiley was unintentional. Don't lynch me Robz !

[liopoil]

That smiley was unintentional. Don't lynch me Robz !

don't worry, he can't, he and his scumbuddies only have 3 votes, it takes 4 to lynch. However, you can lynch robz!

[Teproc]

I'm willing to, but I want to wait for Lekkit and 2.7 to know if we want to do a full claim or not. Also I don't think my post will really convince them of anything (since it all hinges on the fact that I know I'm town), so I'll really just go for whoever of Robz/yuma they want to lynch.

[yuma]

So I am going to be completely honest... I am not going to be able to post any sort of large post or response to large posts until Tuesday--when I am finally off work. I don't know if I necessarily need to in regard to Robz as I have already put up a big post, which he never got around to responding to btw, but I want to look more closely at liopoil and ichimaru as I didn't look at them in depth yesterday.

So I really don't think i will be casting a vote until that point. I know you are in some sort of a rush for some reason liopoil and I don't see why? Yes, we don't want to stall this out, but this isn't blitz... I am pretty sure that Robz is scum (as are you) but there is no need to go crazy and quickly end the day...

Basically stop pressuring people to immediately vote for Robz. They will vote--if they want to vote--in their own sweet time!

[liopoil]

I'm not pressuring people to vote for robz now, I'm pressuring them to vote for robz eventually. because that didn't happen last time, and it needs to happen this time.

[yuma]

That smiley was unintentional. Don't lynch me Robz !

don't worry, he can't, he and his scumbuddies only have 3 votes, it takes 4 to lynch. However, you can lynch robz!

can we just lynch robz now?

everyone has posted, so I'm assuming no more PR claims today... I see no reason to prolong the day except to get reads from lekkit and e. Maybe other people too, though I doubt anyone besides e or lekkit will be dying tonight.

You are... those above and then a few more that aren't saying "vote Robz" but are certainly implying that you really want people to.... And part of what I want to figure out before we lynch is whether or not you are overly excited town or Robz's partner going for towncred trying to be the ultimate busser

[Teproc]

You are... those above and then a few more that aren't saying "vote Robz" but are certainly implying that you really want people to.... And part of what I want to figure out before we lynch is whether or not you are overly excited town or Robz's partner going for towncred trying to be the ultimate busser

That's your concern ? I don't really care if he's a busser, we can figure that out later. The real concern is that he's enthusiastic scum pushing for a winning mislynch.

I guess it's not as big a concern when you're scum and you know Robz is as well. And you're more preoccupied with painting suspicious townies (note : not actually certain liopoil is town, but that's my guess right now) as bussers.

[yuma]

You are... those above and then a few more that aren't saying "vote Robz" but are certainly implying that you really want people to.... And part of what I want to figure out before we lynch is whether or not you are overly excited town or Robz's partner going for towncred trying to be the ultimate busser

That's your concern ? I don't really care if he's a busser, we can figure that out later. The real concern is that he's enthusiastic scum pushing for a winning mislynch.

I guess it's not as big a concern when you're scum and you know Robz is as well. And you're more preoccupied with painting suspicious townies (note : not actually certain liopoil is town, but that's my guess right now) as bussers.

Note the word part above... You have a really hard time reading the full of my posts regardless of your alignment as we have had this issue in the past.

I highly, highly, highly doubt that Robz is town. So don't go around trying to accuse me of not caring what alignment Robz is... I already did my read on him and it came up very scummy

[Teproc]

I didn't misread your post. My point still stands that you are putting emphasis on liopoil's alignment and that your concerns are not that of a town member at lylo.

[yuma]

I didn't misread your post. My point still stands that you are putting emphasis on liopoil's alignment and that your concerns are not that of a town member at lylo.

What?

[Teproc]

liopoil is pushing for Robz's lynch. This can mean one of three things :
- both are scum and liopoil wants credit for bussing his partner energetically
- liopoil is scum and really wants to win right now
- liopoil is town and thinks he found scum

In your post above, you are putting emphasis on 1 and 3. If you were town, 2 would be your biggest concern.

[yuma]

I didn't misread your post. My point still stands that you are putting emphasis on liopoil's alignment and that your concerns are not that of a town member at lylo.

What?

I shouldn't be concerned about discerning liopoil's or ichimaru's alignment? Is that what you are saying? I didn't do a reread of them yesterday and not doing one would be a failure of due diligence to make sure that I don't want to lynch one of them today instead of Robz...

I think that my results will indicate that Robz will be my preferred lynch, but I am not going to definitvely say that until I have done what i need to do! And nothing you say to paint me in a scummy light is going to detract me from doing it!

[yuma]

liopoil is pushing for Robz's lynch. This can mean one of three things :
- both are scum and liopoil wants credit for bussing his partner energetically
- liopoil is scum and really wants to win right now
- liopoil is town and thinks he found scum

In your post above, you are putting emphasis on 1 and 3. If you were town, 2 would be your biggest concern.

I never said that or even implied it. You are putting words into my mouth.

[Teproc]

I didn't misread your post. My point still stands that you are putting emphasis on liopoil's alignment and that your concerns are not that of a town member at lylo.

What?

I shouldn't be concerned about discerning liopoil's or ichimaru's alignment? Is that what you are saying? I didn't do a reread of them yesterday and not doing one would be a failure of due diligence to make sure that I don't want to lynch one of them today instead of Robz...

I think that my results will indicate that Robz will be my preferred lynch, but I am not going to definitvely say that until I have done what i need to do! And nothing you say to paint me in a scummy light is going to detract me from doing it!

That's not what I'm saing, but I guess you could read the post you're quoting here that way. However:

liopoil is pushing for Robz's lynch. This can mean one of three things :
- both are scum and liopoil wants credit for bussing his partner energetically
- liopoil is scum and really wants to win right now
- liopoil is town and thinks he found scum

In your post above, you are putting emphasis on 1 and 3. If you were town, 2 would be your biggest concern.

I never said that or even implied it. You are putting words into my mouth.

Said what or implied what ? Here's what you said :

You are... those above and then a few more that aren't saying "vote Robz" but are certainly implying that you really want people to.... And part of what I want to figure out before we lynch is whether or not you are overly excited town or Robz's partner going for towncred trying to be the ultimate busser

How is this not putting emphasis on options 1 and 3 ?

[Teproc]

Meaning : you act as if Robz's alignement was a foregone conclusion, which it's not. I do think he is scum, but you act as if you KNOW he is scum.

[2.71828.....]

Although even semi-IC's can obviously be wrong, I generally trust their reads over the people in the lynch pool--as we know the majority of them to be scum. I think e's been doing a pretty good job of staying active, but Lekkit is still lurking.

Teproc and Robz are my top scumreads right now. Awhile ago, Teproc mentioned the lack of suspicion on Yuma, I find Yuma scummy for this.

Yuma is interesting, just because I feel like he's passed almost completely under everyone's radar. Is someone working on forming a case against him?

We haven't discussed Ichi too much, but I find this post just a little off.  A little buddying with Lekkit and myself.  Then a weird reason for finding Yuma scummy, then saying there is no case against him and he has flown under the radar.  It just doesn't really seem right to me.  I think Ichimaru is scum.

PPE:4

[yuma]

UGH!

Look at what you are saying.

for the second option... for liopoil as scum to win... Robz must be town. Right? This is what you are saying?!?!

For now I will assume that is what you are saying.

Ok... what you said is that I didn't care whether or Robz was town or scum because I am only focused on whether or not liopoil is town lynching scum robz or scum liopoil lynching scum robz.

Right?

So yes, in the above post that is what I am focused on..... WHY?

Because I already did my due diligence yesterday and reread Robz and found him scummy!!! So for you to say that I don't care whether or not Robz is town or scum completely ignores my conclusions from yesterday and puts words in my mouth that previous posts show to be completely false.

[yuma]

Meaning : you act as if Robz's alignement was a foregone conclusion, which it's not. I do think he is scum, but you act as if you KNOW he is scum.

I am going to say this one more time and then I am done talking with you. I reread Robz yesterday. I found him scummy. Nothing has happened since then to change how I feel about that except two more townies died... I don't see what your beef with me is... except that I think you are trying to get me lynched.

I am done with f.ds tonight. This whole conversation has put me off...

[Teproc]

You think Robz is scum, yes. So do I. But, again, you act as if that was a certainty, which it is not, not if you are town at least.

PPE : I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable here. I just think your reasoning is not that of a town member in lylo.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Although even semi-IC's can obviously be wrong, I generally trust their reads over the people in the lynch pool--as we know the majority of them to be scum. I think e's been doing a pretty good job of staying active, but Lekkit is still lurking.

Teproc and Robz are my top scumreads right now. Awhile ago, Teproc mentioned the lack of suspicion on Yuma, I find Yuma scummy for this.

Yuma is interesting, just because I feel like he's passed almost completely under everyone's radar. Is someone working on forming a case against him?

We haven't discussed Ichi too much, but I find this post just a little off.  A little buddying with Lekkit and myself.  Then a weird reason for finding Yuma scummy, then saying there is no case against him and he has flown under the radar.  It just doesn't really seem right to me.  I think Ichimaru is scum.

PPE:4

You've flipped back and forth on me quite a bit. I don't believe that I am "buddying" you and Lekkit--just stating what I believe to be true--that because you are both basically IC's that I pure greater trust in your opinion. How is that scummy--particularly when a majority of players aside from you are most likely scum?
If both of you (Lekkit in particular) are active and press other players--without having any muddying of the waters through their OMGUS, I think that's our best chance of finding scum.
Before Lekkit's claim, he was one of my top scumreads.

Also. Yes, perhaps you find some of my reasons that Yuma scummy odd, but this at least is what I believe. If you look back, I found Teproc scummy for the same reason.

[2.71828.....]

From your reread of Teproc:

If he is scum I could see him as partners with: robz and possibly mail-mi. Not ichimaru I am thinking.... didn't see much interaction with liopoil....

Why do you not see Teproc as Ichimaru's partner?  Or is this part of the post out-dated (it is like a week old) and you no longer draw that conclusion?

[Teproc]

Not being suspected can be scummy, but not for yuma. A lot of people give him day 1 passes, and he helped get the game going again on day 2.

Everyone being willing to lynch Robz is scaring me a little, but even if we lynch, say, yuma today, I'll want to lynch Robz next, so I guess we might as well just do it now (not literally) and see how it goes.

Before I go sleep : I'm really sorry to have upset you yuma, it wasn't my intention at all.

PPE : 2.7, have you thought about a massclaim ? Like the flavour claim, it has a pretty high chance of being useless, but I think it's worth doing in the off chance it isn't.

[2.71828.....]

I just finished rereading yuma and have some thoughts.  (I am leaning town on him right now)  I just don't see scum!yuma posting some of the things he did and having some of the reads that he had.  However, if he is town that means I have 3 scum in Robz, Teproc, Ichi, and liopoil.  I need to reread Robz, and that will be my next priority. 

Could everyone put who they think the 3 scum are?  I have some thoughts on this as well but if everyone doesn't mind I would prefer to wait until everyone else has put out this list.

[2.71828.....]

PPE : 2.7, have you thought about a massclaim ? Like the flavour claim, it has a pretty high chance of being useless, but I think it's worth doing in the off chance it isn't.

Everyone will claim VT, so I don't really see the point.  If you have something to claim, please claim.  I am treating everyone as a mafia goon (since scum PRs are worthless now) or VT.

[yuma]

You think Robz is scum, yes. So do I. But, again, you act as if that was a certainty, which it is not, not if you are town at least.

PPE : I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable here. I just think your reasoning is not that of a town member in lylo.

And that is what I don't get. I am not certain. If I was certain I would be voting, lylo regardless... remember GoT where I was "certain" about Voltaire and allowed scum to slow hammer him...? Well... and even then I learned a lesson there (combined with Toy Story where if I were alive I would have voted for Gveo very early and would have lost the game in lylo there as well....) to not be too hasty with my vote. But morale of the story is that I am not certain and I don't know how you are getting that impression. If you want to see certain... look at liopoil apparently...

Really I don't see how what you are accusing me of doing is any different than what you have done.

I am starting with a basis that Robz is scummy, based off a previous reread--and I want to go look at Ichimaru and liopoil specifically, as I have already looked at you and Robz--to see if they match for potential scum partners before I do anything because for him to be scum he has to have partners... he isn't working in isolation right? You have done the same in finding Robz scummy and then pinpointing Ichimaru and me as his partners... I haven't had time to get to that part done, but will after Tuesday. So I guess if you want to find me scummy because you have time and I don't...

It is like you are finding me suspicious for finding Robz to be scummy and wanting to see who meets the qualifications of him being a partner, of course there is always a chance that Robz isn't scum and no one would fit the demographic of being his partner. Are you afraid that I might discover that it is you who best fits the mold? I am beginning to think that this might be the case.

[yuma]

From your reread of Teproc:

If he is scum I could see him as partners with: robz and possibly mail-mi. Not ichimaru I am thinking.... didn't see much interaction with liopoil....

Why do you not see Teproc as Ichimaru's partner?  Or is this part of the post out-dated (it is like a week old) and you no longer draw that conclusion?

It isn't out-dated. It isn't as strong as an assumption as before given that there is a smaller pool, but I believe that my logic was based off their interactions between each other day2 primarily... the voting for each other, starting wagons on one another was the crux of it I believe.

But this was mostly from Teproc's point of view and I will look at it again from Ichimaru's point of view.

[yuma]

Could everyone put who they think the 3 scum are?  I have some thoughts on this as well but if everyone doesn't mind I would prefer to wait until everyone else has put out this list.

If you can wait until Tuesday I can give you a more definitive answer. I have a guess right now, but it is more based off stuff from today than anything else.

[Robz888]

Who I think is scum:

Yuma, for sure
Liopoil, for nearly sure
Ichi, more likely than Teproc, but not much
Teproc, a little less likely

[Teproc]

I think the scumteam is Robz and yuma + a third, probably Ichimaru.

[Ichimaru Gin]

My vote is on Robz/Teproc/x
Possibly liopoil?

[liopoil]

I think scum is robz, yuma, and either teproc and ichimaru. I put Teproc ahead of ichi before, but I really just am not sure at all. I don't need to make that decision yet, and I will reread both when I do.

No, I'm not certain robz is scum, I'm confident enough that there's no way I'm going to be changing my mind. I'm going to be voting for robz eventually, and so if robz is town scum wins no matter what anyway. If in GoT you were going to be voting voltaire eventually, it didn't matter that you voted earlier. If somehow robz is town and scum wins, the blame should be on me getting it terribly wrong, not on me voting prematurely.

yuma - the first thing you quoted is not urging Teproc to vote for robz now. It is saying he should lynch robz. which means voting for him, eventually.

The second one, I suppose is a bit like that. So sure, people shouldn't listen to that and vote before they are ready, though I doubt anyone would anyway.

PPE: meant to post this this morning, just came back and saw I actually never hit post, so here it is.

[yuma]

yuma - the first thing you quoted is not urging Teproc to vote for robz now. It is saying he should lynch robz. which means voting for him, eventually.

The second one, I suppose is a bit like that. So sure, people shouldn't listen to that and vote before they are ready, though I doubt anyone would anyway.

I agree with you, but when you say something over and over again it adds a sense of urgency to it you must admit yes? And as I am in a position with my personal life where I am not capable of being urgent I want to put the brakes down a bit.

[yuma]

No, I'm not certain robz is scum, I'm confident enough that there's no way I'm going to be changing my mind. I'm going to be voting for robz eventually, and so if robz is town scum wins no matter what anyway. If in GoT you were going to be voting voltaire eventually, it didn't matter that you voted earlier. If somehow robz is town and scum wins, the blame should be on me getting it terribly wrong, not on me voting prematurely.

To respond to the rest of this quote... I agree there is a difference between being certain and being very confident, and I don't really have a problem with you being very confident or voting--really my issue with that is more that I fear others are going to vote quickly before Lekkit and 2.7 can be fully utilized and before I am able to solidify my certainty and explore areas that I want to first, so wanting you to unvote is more out of fear what others might do than any problem with your particular vote.

My real problem is that Teproc is painting me as scummy for "being certain" when my reads and thought process seem to be the same as yours (or at least quite similar to it in the context of what he is speaking about) but he isn't calling you out for it... and is instead fingering me solely.

Or to look at it even more dramatically.... look at Robz. He appears to be "very confident" or even "certain" if I can use Teproc's use of the word that I am mafia but w/o any of the reads and rereads that liopoil and I have done to back it up...  So why isn't Teproc calling Robz out? And again only pointing the suspicion at me for this?

[liopoil]

the top two scumreads for each person given so far (please correct me if this is incorrect):

Liopoil: Robz, Yuma
Robz: Yuma, Liopoil
Yuma: will give answer tomorrow, but seems like robz is his top scumread.
Teproc: Robz, yuma
Ichimaru: Robz, Teproc
e: hasn't given a definitive answer, but seems like ichimaru and robz are probably his top scumreads.
lekkit: hasn't posted since the 16th!! Can we get a prod on Lekkit?

also, nobody posted yesterday. I think everyone ran out of things to say, maybe because we're waiting for yuma, e, and lekkit to decide who they think is scum? That's cool and all, yuma is right, it doesn't matter when we lynch robz. But when is our deadline?

The reason I made this list is because I think it will be interesting to look back on tomorrow. I only did the top two because I think that's all that really is important right now.

[2.71828.....]

e: hasn't given a definitive answer, but seems like ichimaru and robz are probably his top scumreads.

Yeah, I was waiting for other people to give answers first before I responded.  I am doing a Robz reread starting now, so I will come back with a more definitive "I think Robz is scum" or "I do not think Robz is scum" after that.

[2.71828.....]

Can we get a prod on Lekkit?

^^this

[Teproc]

So, this tells us everyone wants to lynch Robz ? That's a little worrying, but with his super scummy hammer on mail-mi, it would make sense for the scum team to just bus him today. Although why even hammer mail-mi then ? I guess one for one trade is pretty good for scum at this point, especially if they know there are no PRs left (Lekkit is basically a VT now).

The thing is : are we really never going to lynch Robz in the next three days because of that ? I don't think so, so we might as well lynch him today and see if we lose right away.

I could vote Robz now but I guess I'll wait for Lekkit to show up and 2.7 to finish his reread.

[Teproc]

As far as the "yuma is too certain about Robz", I feel the need to clarify :
- there is some confirmation bias here. I think yuma is scum for PoE reasons, so I found his certainty scummier than liopoil's because I already thought yuma was scum anyway
- The way I arrived at the conclusion that yuma was probably scum is not something that can convince any other townie. I saw something scummy in yuma's post, so I jumped on it because I'm trying to convince other townies of what I already think.
- they're not exactly the same thing. The way liopoil (and Robz apparently) are certain of someone being scum is just them saying "This guy is scum, we should lynch him". I don't think that is scummy, in fact I'm doing the same thing. If yuma's next post is "Vote: Robz, I'm 100% sure he's scum", I'm not going to find this particularly scummy.

What I saw was :
- liopoil was pushing for Robz's lynch (it certainly read like you were asking me to vote now by the way)
- yuma saw that, and wondered if it meant that liopoil was excited town or just scum bussing. When I saw that, I wondered if it meant that liopoil was scum trying to win the game by lynching Robz. I'm town, so yuma having a very different reaction seemed scummy to me.

Maybe this is all wrong because town!yuma isn't paranoid as me in those situations (come to think of it, he certainly wasn't in GoT), but I don't think it's as ridiculous as yuma makes it sound.

[Teproc]

Also, scum has not quickhammered, so this pretty much confirms for me that robz is scum. while all three haven't been online at the same time, I would expect a slow-mo quickhammer of sorts

I disagree that it means anything. A 3-person quickhammer seems pretty hard to pull off without daychat. ALso, it could mena that you are scum. And I don't like that you are trying to make this you v Robz. Scum bussing would do exactly that I think, to get more towncred from Robz flipping scum.

[liopoil]

If you vote for robz I will unvote. We definitely want to hear from lekkit and e first. I hadn't realized how absent lekkit has been today, and that e actually hadn't given strong reads yet.

I have left open a tab with a post that just says unvote in it ever since I voted for robz, by the way. At first it was just in case of quickhammer, now I don't really need to worry about that (and it's not like I'm going to be around to unvote if needed at all times anyway), but I'm keeping it anyway.

Also, scum has not quickhammered, so this pretty much confirms for me that robz is scum. while all three haven't been online at the same time, I would expect a slow-mo quickhammer of sorts

I disagree that it means anything. A 3-person quickhammer seems pretty hard to pull off without daychat. ALso, it could mena that you are scum. And I don't like that you are trying to make this you v Robz. Scum bussing would do exactly that I think, to get more towncred from Robz flipping scum.

I did say that I doubt it would be an actual quickhammer, but a slower hammer instead. And it confirms FOR ME that robz is scum I said, because I know I'm town. And I do not expect any towncred when robz flips scum and will not be giving towncred to others who suspect robz. Robz was almost certainly going down today anyway. No, when robz flips scum I will be looking at his interactions with players on the first 3 days.

He hammered mail-mi because either him or mail-mi was getting lynched, and if it was mail-mi then robz was getting lynched today regardless of if he hammered.

[Robz888]

Look, is there even a chance we lynch someone other than me today? If the answer is "no," just get on with it, I guess. I mean, it's a huge shame, because I feel like I am going to get blamed for the town's loss, even though really we are in a situation where we SHOULD win, and I can't believe this is happening all over again. Town should have won Chocoloate Factory, too. Here, though, I can't really blame you all for lynching me... I feel like it's really bad luck mail-mi wasn't one of the scum. I hammered him because I was going to be the alternate lynch candidate, and I was not scum. And if I hadn't hammered him, I would have been lynched instead, and town would have lynched mail-mi today and lost as well. I guess think of it this way: In the world where you lynch mail-mi and Robz, in either order, we will always lose. That's the world we're in, but the rest of you just don't know it.

[Robz888]

Liopoil is doing scum endgame tactics.

[liopoil]

Liopoil is doing scum endgame tactics.

Robz is doing scum AtE

[Robz888]

Possibly, this is just liopoil telling one of his partners to go for the quickhammer, and his partner, yuma, saying no way man, we got this in the bag anyway.

yuma - the first thing you quoted is not urging Teproc to vote for robz now. It is saying he should lynch robz. which means voting for him, eventually.

The second one, I suppose is a bit like that. So sure, people shouldn't listen to that and vote before they are ready, though I doubt anyone would anyway.

I agree with you, but when you say something over and over again it adds a sense of urgency to it you must admit yes? And as I am in a position with my personal life where I am not capable of being urgent I want to put the brakes down a bit.

[Robz888]

Liopoil is doing scum endgame tactics.

Robz is doing scum AtE

What is AtE?

[liopoil]

Possibly, this is just liopoil telling one of his partners to go for the quickhammer, and his partner, yuma, saying no way man, we got this in the bag anyway.

yuma - the first thing you quoted is not urging Teproc to vote for robz now. It is saying he should lynch robz. which means voting for him, eventually.

The second one, I suppose is a bit like that. So sure, people shouldn't listen to that and vote before they are ready, though I doubt anyone would anyway.

I agree with you, but when you say something over and over again it adds a sense of urgency to it you must admit yes? And as I am in a position with my personal life where I am not capable of being urgent I want to put the brakes down a bit.

If I am really scum than I have just 2 buddies and can't quickhammer robz. I think robz just gave himself away some more here^^

Liopoil is doing scum endgame tactics.

Robz is doing scum AtE

Appeal to Emotion... right?

What is AtE?

[liopoil]

Liopoil is doing scum endgame tactics.

Robz is doing scum AtE

What is AtE?

Appeal to Emotion... right?

quote fixed

[Robz888]

Oh. Well that's not a scum thing, like at all.

[Robz888]

And I'm not getting quickhammered because it could backfire or you big time and I don't need to be quickhammered to win, and it allows you to make this argument.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Wow. I was almost ready to bump this thread.

Yeah. I'm wondering if there's even a small chance of lynching anyone but Robz today.
Liopoil has become a lot more scummy to me. So he's actually moved up to #2 with Teproc at #3 as my top scumreads.

At any rate, it will be good to hear from everyone about the Robz lynch, so when he (most hopefully) flips scum. We'll have more to analyze. And if he flips town, well it won't really matter then.

I am willing to vote for Teproc and Liopoil--but I don't see any interest there right now.
The most important thing is--we need to really, really, make sure that Robz is scum! We can't afford another mislynch. Liopoil seems very confident about this, but how can he be that sure? I think he's bussing, or scum is overjoyed that it looks almost certain that we're going to lynch town!Robz today.

[liopoil]

Robz, you do realize the only way you can be quickhammered is if we are both town? it takes 4 to lynch. there are 3 scum. They need a townie to vote for a townie to be able to quickhammer.

Yeah. I'm wondering if there's even a small chance of lynching anyone but Robz today.
Liopoil has become a lot more scummy to me. So he's actually moved up to #2 with Teproc at #3 as my top scumreads.

At any rate, it will be good to hear from everyone about the Robz lynch, so when he (most hopefully) flips scum. We'll have more to analyze. And if he flips town, well it won't really matter then.

I am willing to vote for Teproc and Liopoil--but I don't see any interest there right now.
The most important thing is--we need to really, really, make sure that Robz is scum! We can't afford another mislynch. Liopoil seems very confident about this, but how can he be that sure? I think he's bussing, or scum is overjoyed that it looks almost certain that we're going to lynch town!Robz today.

nevermind, Ichimaru is scummier than teproc, for sure. Robz is still his #1 scumread it seems, if teproc and I are 2 and 3, yet he is clearly trying to lynch teproc or I.

I'm calling it now then, scumteam is Ichimaru Gin, yuma, and robz.

[2.71828.....]

Ok.  Robz.  Definitely not my top scum read.

D1 he was big against Liopoil.  However, that got distracted by the whole Faust thing, and then Ashersky D2, and he has never really come back to pressure Lio as that much after D1.  (D1- here, here, here.  D2- here)

Robz also mentions Ichi as super scummy, but basically says he has gotten in the bad habit of letting true newbs avoid much (any) scrutiny D1.  I think that because of his V/LA and other stuff to talk about he never really delved into Ichi much later.  Possibly because we hadn't lynched scum yet.

Robz has had a good bit of V/LA throughout this game, but I just don't see him being super scummy.  I am not sure that I would endorse a Robz lynch. 

[liopoil]

The thing is, we need all 4 townies to vote for robz if scum doesn't bus. That means we need E and lekkit to get back into this game.

PPE: NOOOOOOOOO

[Teproc]

So, e, you're not willing to vote for Robz, and IIRC not for yuma either ?

Ugh. Not sure how we do this then.

[2.71828.....]

Uh, I think the case against you, liopoil, is just a bit more sophisticated than that. It's not just that "you're lurking." Lots of people are lurking for various reasons. I've actually had very little time for this game, so.

The case against you is that, well you're low post count and not much content. AND I think this is something scum liopoil does on Day 1. I remember in Toy Story Mafia wishing you could have a little bit more meatier content on Day 1, worrying that you could and should be the obvious lynch on "lynch the lurker whose posts are most strained to be contributions" basis.

Later, I think you did really get into the game and do a great job. And I think as town, even when you are a lurker, it's not quite like this.

This from Robz was very interesting. 

[2.71828.....]

So, e, you're not willing to vote for Robz, and IIRC not for yuma either ?

Ugh. Not sure how we do this then.

I might vote Robz, but I think Liopoil is scummier between Robz/Lio, and while it is not necessarily town/scum here, I think that if Lio flips scum Robz is much less likely to be scum

[Robz888]

Robz, you do realize the only way you can be quickhammered is if we are both town? it takes 4 to lynch. there are 3 scum. They need a townie to vote for a townie to be able to quickhammer.

Right, which is why you keep calling for our ICs to vote for me now, instead of later.

[Teproc]

How so ? Because he indeed got more active as the game went on ? I think everyone does that, by virtue of there being less players, but you might have a point. However, I'm prett sure the other townie is one of {liopoil/Ichimaru}, so I really don't want to lynch either of them today.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Robz, you do realize the only way you can be quickhammered is if we are both town? it takes 4 to lynch. there are 3 scum. They need a townie to vote for a townie to be able to quickhammer.

Yeah. I'm wondering if there's even a small chance of lynching anyone but Robz today.
Liopoil has become a lot more scummy to me. So he's actually moved up to #2 with Teproc at #3 as my top scumreads.

At any rate, it will be good to hear from everyone about the Robz lynch, so when he (most hopefully) flips scum. We'll have more to analyze. And if he flips town, well it won't really matter then.

I am willing to vote for Teproc and Liopoil--but I don't see any interest there right now.
The most important thing is--we need to really, really, make sure that Robz is scum! We can't afford another mislynch. Liopoil seems very confident about this, but how can he be that sure? I think he's bussing, or scum is overjoyed that it looks almost certain that we're going to lynch town!Robz today.

nevermind, Ichimaru is scummier than teproc, for sure. Robz is still his #1 scumread it seems, if teproc and I are 2 and 3, yet he is clearly trying to lynch teproc or I.

I'm calling it now then, scumteam is Ichimaru Gin, yuma, and robz.

How am I clearly trying to lynch Teproc or you? Robz was my top scumread , but not by much. I haven't voted for anyone yet, but that's cause I don't want a quickhammer--and I think Lekkit and e need to have time to post.
This reeks of misdirection instead of actually addressing the points I made against you.
1. that you seem overly sure that Robz is scum
2. that it seemed that you were pushing for a quick lynch earlier today.

You are now my top scumread.

[Robz888]

So, e, you're not willing to vote for Robz, and IIRC not for yuma either ?

Ugh. Not sure how we do this then.

I might vote Robz, but I think Liopoil is scummier between Robz/Lio, and while it is not necessarily town/scum here, I think that if Lio flips scum Robz is much less likely to be scum

Well, if lio doesn't flip scum, it wouldn't matter... that would be game over.

I do think there is some unfortunate chance lio is the other townie... that would actually make some weird degree of sense, really, since the battle is like entirely between us.

Either way, any way, Yuma IS scum. He has to be. He is weirdly and totally uniquely STILL ducking serious involvement in this game. THIS IS NOT TOWN YUMA. This is scum yuma, who has been very very lucky. And has benefited from extreme personalities stealing all the focus, and me sitll being around to distract in the endgame.

Whoever the other town is, there is NO way it is yuma. You must all see that.

[Teproc]

Well, I do agree that yuma is scum, but we run into the same problem that e doesn't really like his lynch either.

[liopoil]

Robz, you do realize the only way you can be quickhammered is if we are both town? it takes 4 to lynch. there are 3 scum. They need a townie to vote for a townie to be able to quickhammer.

Yeah. I'm wondering if there's even a small chance of lynching anyone but Robz today.
Liopoil has become a lot more scummy to me. So he's actually moved up to #2 with Teproc at #3 as my top scumreads.

At any rate, it will be good to hear from everyone about the Robz lynch, so when he (most hopefully) flips scum. We'll have more to analyze. And if he flips town, well it won't really matter then.

I am willing to vote for Teproc and Liopoil--but I don't see any interest there right now.
The most important thing is--we need to really, really, make sure that Robz is scum! We can't afford another mislynch. Liopoil seems very confident about this, but how can he be that sure? I think he's bussing, or scum is overjoyed that it looks almost certain that we're going to lynch town!Robz today.

nevermind, Ichimaru is scummier than teproc, for sure. Robz is still his #1 scumread it seems, if teproc and I are 2 and 3, yet he is clearly trying to lynch teproc or I.

I'm calling it now then, scumteam is Ichimaru Gin, yuma, and robz.

How am I clearly trying to lynch Teproc or you? Robz was my top scumread , but not by much. I haven't voted for anyone yet, but that's cause I don't want a quickhammer--and I think Lekkit and e need to have time to post.
This reeks of misdirection instead of actually addressing the points I made against you.
1. that you seem overly sure that Robz is scum
2. that it seemed that you were pushing for a quick lynch earlier today.

You are now my top scumread.

You say you are willing to vote for me or teproc, and don't even mention robz as a scumread. You are urging people to be cautious about robz, because you just need 1 townie to vote for a townie and you win.

as for those two things:
1: he is obvscum, so I yes, I am pretty sure he is scum.
2: I thought this would be clear to everyone and we would all agree to lynch robz pretty quickly and have not need to spend time laboring over this. As scum why would I ever do that out loud, why in the world would ICs listen to me who objectively has a 3/5 chance of being scum. No, I doubted convincing was neccessary, hence why I didn't make a case. Maybe I will now though.

[Robz888]

Liopoil you are wrong!

[Robz888]

And I'm starting to think you might be the other townie...

[2.71828.....]

Well, I do agree that yuma is scum, but we run into the same problem that e doesn't really like his lynch either.

Yeah, well I don't always have the best reads (more the opposite).  And if I eventually am convinced that Robz is town, then I really think that Yuma might in fact be scum

[Robz888]

Well, I do agree that yuma is scum, but we run into the same problem that e doesn't really like his lynch either.

Yeah, well I don't always have the best reads (more the opposite).  And if I eventually am convinced that Robz is town, then I really think that Yuma might in fact be scum

^Yes! Yes! This IS indeed the case. Help me convince lio or Teproc. Ichi is definitely a yuma partner. The third could be either.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Robz, you do realize the only way you can be quickhammered is if we are both town? it takes 4 to lynch. there are 3 scum. They need a townie to vote for a townie to be able to quickhammer.

Yeah. I'm wondering if there's even a small chance of lynching anyone but Robz today.
Liopoil has become a lot more scummy to me. So he's actually moved up to #2 with Teproc at #3 as my top scumreads.

At any rate, it will be good to hear from everyone about the Robz lynch, so when he (most hopefully) flips scum. We'll have more to analyze. And if he flips town, well it won't really matter then.

I am willing to vote for Teproc and Liopoil--but I don't see any interest there right now.
The most important thing is--we need to really, really, make sure that Robz is scum! We can't afford another mislynch. Liopoil seems very confident about this, but how can he be that sure? I think he's bussing, or scum is overjoyed that it looks almost certain that we're going to lynch town!Robz today.

nevermind, Ichimaru is scummier than teproc, for sure. Robz is still his #1 scumread it seems, if teproc and I are 2 and 3, yet he is clearly trying to lynch teproc or I.

I'm calling it now then, scumteam is Ichimaru Gin, yuma, and robz.

How am I clearly trying to lynch Teproc or you? Robz was my top scumread , but not by much. I haven't voted for anyone yet, but that's cause I don't want a quickhammer--and I think Lekkit and e need to have time to post.
This reeks of misdirection instead of actually addressing the points I made against you.
1. that you seem overly sure that Robz is scum
2. that it seemed that you were pushing for a quick lynch earlier today.

You are now my top scumread.

You say you are willing to vote for me or teproc, and don't even mention robz as a scumread. You are urging people to be cautious about robz, because you just need 1 townie to vote for a townie and you win.

as for those two things:
1: he is obvscum, so I yes, I am pretty sure he is scum.
2: I thought this would be clear to everyone and we would all agree to lynch robz pretty quickly and have not need to spend time laboring over this. As scum why would I ever do that out loud, why in the world would ICs listen to me who objectively has a 3/5 chance of being scum. No, I doubted convincing was neccessary, hence why I didn't make a case. Maybe I will now though.

Though I may have failed to mention Robz in that particular post. I think from my previous posts my opinion was pretty obvious. Perhaps I should have mentioned my reads again.

How is having people be slightly cautious a bad thing in this situation? If you are "100% sure" Robz is scum, then sure, caution on my part looks scummy. But the fact that you are trying to lynch him really quickly--when all we need is one mislynch for town to lose, it just looks a little reckless to me.
I think Robz is pretty scummy as well. And I'm fine with him being the lynch today.
My point was that town has not hit a single scum yet. We need to be really sure that the person we're lynching is scum. And I think that means letting our IC's weigh in a little more than they have been. A lot more in Lekkit's case.

Yes, I think I get that you think Robz is really scummy and want to lynch him ASAP. But why such a hurry? Particularly when other players (players that are basically confirmed town) disagree?

PPE: 2

[liopoil]

Liopoil you are wrong!

this really shouldn't be convincing at all to me. It is though.

I'm gonna go make the case on robz. In the meantime, Unvote. It's possible that I've just gotten so hooked on robz being scum that I lost sight of why it is that he's scum. I mean, I have the reasons in my head, but they might not be as strong as I thought.

Also, I don't care if this looks scummy. I'm town, so whatever. If robz really is scum, then no harm done, I'll be revoting for him shortly. If he is somehow town, then this is definitely the right thing to do.

PPE: You're fine with robz being the lynch today even though I'm your top scumread now? if getting it right is so important (it is) then shouldn't you be only okay with me being the lynch?

again, not trying to lynch robz ASAP, trying to lynch robz. I get how my posts look like that, but no, lynching robz is the only goal. I've recinded some of my previous comments. Also not 100% sure, 95%+ sure. We're not going to be nearly certain who we lynch. That's just not possible. no amount of analysis and posts is going to give us that. I voted for robz because I didn't see myself ever changing my mind about him being our best lynch today. I'm still pretty sure I'm going to be voting for robz, but I'm taking another look.

[2.71828.....]

Deadline: Monday, January 19th at 8 pm

That date is wrong.  January 19 was Sunday, and yesterday.  When is the deadline?

[liopoil]

From this:

Liopoil is doing scum endgame tactics.

To this:

And I'm starting to think you might be the other townie...

in the space of just over half an hour.

Deadline: Monday, January 19th at 8 pm

That date is wrong.  January 19 was Sunday, and yesterday.  When is the deadline?

oh shoot.

okay, going to read robz, for real now...

[2.71828.....]

From this:

Liopoil is doing scum endgame tactics.

To this:

And I'm starting to think you might be the other townie...

in the space of just over half an hour.

I don't see that as a problem.  In fact, I see that coming from town more than scum.  Scum already know who they want to lynch.  Town are still trying to figure out who is scum.  Robz has been V/LA, and not giving a whole lot of thought to this game while on national TV and such.  I think this is more of he is getting back involved, initial reaction was that you are scum, then as he thinks more and gets more reactions thinks you are town.

[liopoil]

oh yeah, I wasn't saying that was a reason to suspect him.

[Ichimaru Gin]

PPE: You're fine with robz being the lynch today even though I'm your top scumread now? if getting it right is so important (it is) then shouldn't you be only okay with me being the lynch?

Yeah. Cause at this point, I'm pretty sure Robz is scum too.
Since I know I'm town, I have a 3/5 chance of hitting scum.
As long as we lynch one of my top 3 scumreads today. I feel that the odds are pretty good.

Why would only have one person I would consider lynching, when I know there are 3 scum--and I have a pretty good feeling who they are?

PPE: 2

[2.71828.....]

Since I know I'm town, I have a 3/5 chance of hitting scum.

It would actually be a 3/4 shot if you were indeed town, which I do not believe.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Since I know I'm town, I have a 3/5 chance of hitting scum.

It would actually be a 3/4 shot if you were indeed town, which I do not believe.

No. You're right. Which makes liopoil's comment even more scummy in my mind.

But not on the second part.

(I'd put a smiley here, but you know).

[2.71828.....]

Since I know I'm town, I have a 3/5 chance of hitting scum.

It would actually be a 3/4 shot if you were indeed town, which I do not believe.

No. You're right. Which makes liopoil's comment even more scummy in my mind.

Why is liopoil scummier for his comment because of this?  Simply PoE?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Since I know I'm town, I have a 3/5 chance of hitting scum.

It would actually be a 3/4 shot if you were indeed town, which I do not believe.

No. You're right. Which makes liopoil's comment even more scummy in my mind.

Why is liopoil scummier for his comment because of this?  Simply PoE?

Well that's part of it.

But I just found this comment to be really scummy.

You're fine with robz being the lynch today even though I'm your top scumread now? if getting it right is so important (it is) then shouldn't you be only okay with me being the lynch?

When I know I have a 75% chance of hitting scum, why should I follow liopoil and only have one lynch I'll support?
It just seems like he's trying to limit people to only one lynch candidate, which strikes me as strange. And ultimately scummy.

[liopoil]

PPE: You're fine with robz being the lynch today even though I'm your top scumread now? if getting it right is so important (it is) then shouldn't you be only okay with me being the lynch?

Yeah. Cause at this point, I'm pretty sure Robz is scum too.
Since I know I'm town, I have a 3/5 chance of hitting scum.
As long as we lynch one of my top 3 scumreads today. I feel that the odds are pretty good.

Why would only have one person I would consider lynching, when I know there are 3 scum--and I have a pretty good feeling who they are?

PPE: 2

so lemme get this straight: we should be really careful who we lynch, but in the end it really doesn't matter to you who we lynch as long as it isn't you or yuma? so why are you telling people to be cautious and to consider voting me or teproc instead?

but no, we shouldn't just lynch one of your three scumreads. You should want to lynch your strongest scumread. For sure. Even if they are close in how confident you are. Like you yourself said, we have to get this right, so we should pick the player which gives us the best chance of getting it right.

You can't say that we need to be really careful and make sure that we're sure that the player we lynch is scum and then go on to say that since all of the other players have a 75% chance of being scum we can just pick one and have good chances. No, we should pick the player who has an even better than 75% chance of being scum. (based on reads)

And yeah, 3/4, and you thinking it's 3/5 is another reason to suspect you. I said 3/5 because that was from the views of the ICs.

[Ichimaru Gin]

PPE: You're fine with robz being the lynch today even though I'm your top scumread now? if getting it right is so important (it is) then shouldn't you be only okay with me being the lynch?

Yeah. Cause at this point, I'm pretty sure Robz is scum too.
Since I know I'm town, I have a 3/5 chance of hitting scum.
As long as we lynch one of my top 3 scumreads today. I feel that the odds are pretty good.

Why would only have one person I would consider lynching, when I know there are 3 scum--and I have a pretty good feeling who they are?

PPE: 2

so lemme get this straight: we should be really careful who we lynch, but in the end it really doesn't matter to you who we lynch as long as it isn't you or yuma? so why are you telling people to be cautious and to consider voting me or teproc instead?

but no, we shouldn't just lynch one of your three scumreads. You should want to lynch your strongest scumread. For sure. Even if they are close in how confident you are. Like you yourself said, we have to get this right, so we should pick the player which gives us the best chance of getting it right.

You can't say that we need to be really careful and make sure that we're sure that the player we lynch is scum and then go on to say that since all of the other players have a 75% chance of being scum we can just pick one and have good chances. No, we should pick the player who has an even better than 75% chance of being scum. (based on reads)

And yeah, 3/4, and you thinking it's 3/5 is another reason to suspect you. I said 3/5 because that was from the views of the ICs.

There are 5 people left in the lynch pool basically. I never recommended that we be "really careful". Just more careful than picking a single person and sheeping them all day regardless of any development.

I have said nothing about not lynching Yuma. I think a case on him is long overdue, but as of now, no one has made one.

Liopoil, if you are in fact town, your certainty on Robz is justified. I just don't think you're town. I think you are either bussing, or over-zealous at the prospect of lynch town!Robz, which will win you the game.


Yes, ideally, my top scumread would be the one to get lynched. However, I alone cannot make that happen. So if I see a wagon gravitating towards one of my top scumreads (which are relatively close), I will support it.
There is a chance that your lynch will not occur today. If it looks like you aren't going to get lynched, that does not mean I am going to spend the whole day in futility, trying to start a lynch that just isn't going to happen. Simply because it's my top scum read.

And now me making an honest statistical mistake is scummy? Really.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think everyone should make a short post with their top scum-read. And we'll see where we stand.

I'll start.

Liopoil

[2.71828.....]

I think everyone should make a short post with their top scum-read. And we'll see where we stand.

I'll start.

Liopoil

Yeah, not a huge fan of this.  I prefer posting your top two scum reads or even better your top 3 scum reads.  But Ichimaru asks, and Ichimaru will recieve. 

vote: Ichimaru Gin

[liopoil]

e, please unvote.

[liopoil]

or at least get an unvote ready in another tab, and unvote as soon as someone else votes for ichimaru, or whenever you need to leave. I'm working on the robz case, almost through D3.

[2.71828.....]

I will unvote quickly if need be

[liopoil]

Robz reread, only including posts I think aren't null. Only quoting when neccessary:

- When ash and e flavorclaim early, makes a couple posts acknowledging that they claimed these flavornames and is aware of this.
- puts some early light suspicion on yuma, but then gives him a D1 pass anyway. Points to them being partners.
- suspects me D1 for lurking, like D1 in toy story, which fair reasoning and all. No suspicion for this... yet. No suspicion because this can just as easily be town making a comparison to a game that just finished and is fresher in his mind as it can be scum looking for a relatively easy mislynch. (because I get wagons on me D1 a lot)
- lessens suspicion of me later D1, which I had forgotten
-

Lying town is not really a possibility.

hehe... (note, this isn't part of the reread, just had to post this)
- gets distracted by faust and all, but then actually votes for e... suspcious I think, not just because e is town, because it looks like he's trying to be off-wagon. But then he goes back to faust after he retracts the claim.
- I still find his stances on ash scummy somehow. I know I got it wrong too, in pretty much the same way as robz..... I just feel like he would have realized this was town ash. All he says though is that it could be town ash, and I feel like robz would feel more strongly one way or another. Hard to explain, and I may be totally wrong here.
- He forgot why he suspected me, even though he made several posts about me D1.
- e, have you forgotten this?

liopoil- I like his response to the case brought against him by yuma.  Looking back I don't really feel like lynching him all too much, but if we need a lynch I might be persuaded to vote him on the 2nd.  I also think he has an interesting point about Robz.

In fact, Robz? Here is some stuff on him- Opens up the liopoil case that "scum!lio struggles early but plays better late."  Gets a bunch of sheep.  He originally gives slight credence to my Faust case, but then is turned off the case by Ashersky.  He throws out his vote for sale here saying he is concerned about a bad D1.  Jumps to Lekkit for a lurker lynch temporarily before realizing Lekkit wasn't really lurking just posting less frequently but still with content, then moves to Eevee as his lurker lynch after I point out that Eevee is more of a lurker.  Throws his vote out for sale again.  Has the whole episode of "wait no one post info about the setup because it might help scum!faust with a fakeclaim." (starting here)  He then jumps onto the little wagon against me for a bit here before Faust reveals that he was lying about his fakeclaim.  Robz then ends the day with his vote on me, after unvoting Faust to avoid ending the day before some people could comment.  I recognize his "D1s are famously lacksadaisical" (to quote Ash from BM14 since he put it so nicely in the role PM) but putting his vote up for sale? twice?  His D2 has not been great but no one has really stood out too much as being amazing, and I think he can probably (safely) trust that his meta will carry him through and avoid a lynch.

So this has been long and winding and a bunch of people posted while I was typing this, but I think it lands me at vote: Robz.  I am not comfortable with the way he went through D1, and he has not done anything today to shake that feeling.

- when chairs claims tracker he immediately throws a quote from DS9 as a reason to not necessarily trust chairs. He doesn't want to full out disbelieve him, because that won't work, just wants to discredit him a bit I think here, so he can push the ash lynch through.
-

Lekkit's claim puts us back in the game... I think. We should not write him off as scum, though. I think he could have anticipated getting heat today--he was sort of the least scrutinized player--and planned to do this claim, probably along with ONE of his partners. (With zero of his partners would be pretty bad for the team, with TWO of the partners very nice if it pays off but probably risky.) With one, you know you're very likely to get the oher guy, a townie, on your side.  I could see scum!Lekkit doing this if his partner is one of Voltaire/2.7 and then like, the least likely person to be lynched from the other pool, maybe yuma.

Well, okay, this would mean Voltaire or 2.7 would be scum. I do think 2.7 seems less likely to be scum because of the mod error, though, and Voltaire has been my strongest town read.

I mean, if Lekkit is scum, this move just won the game. But we might be in the position where we can't really afford to play like that's what happened, if we think it's the less likely thing. It's probably the less likely thing.

Okay, who does this leave? Yuma, mail-mi, Teproc, Ichimaru, liopoil... What a nicely smaller pool.

he's now doubted all three of our PR claims
- completely forgot about ash being zhang fei and e being zhuge liang, even though he like I said before he was clearly aware of it earlier. even made a comment about ash being zhuge liang.
-

Uh, I'm behind. Sorry, I know that's not helping, and I'm not helping. Is there something I should do, or answer, other than re-read and give reads?

his last post before the hammer. 12th at 3:46 pm. At the time there is one vote on mail-mi.
-

I am clearly overthinking this now. vote: mail-mi and I'm done for today, unless I need to change my vote to someone else we like.

puts mail-mi at L-1. 13th at 1:09 pm.

-

Okay, I have re-read.

Vote: Mail-mi, because he is the most scummy suspect, and because I am the alternative lynch.

25 minutes later he appears from nowhere, claims to have reread (not sure I trust this at all) and hammers. Super scummy. He was the only other option, and doing this puts his scumteam in great shape, just needing town to fail to lynch 3 scum in a row. I think he is pouncing on this opportunity as scum. As town, I think he'd at least state intent to hammer. Sure he wants to avoid the mislynch, but this just seems so much less plausible than him just being scum.

-

Voltaire, was killed in the night, he was Sun Quan, a vanilla townie.

this really points to robz being scum too. Voltaire suspected robz a lot before switching to mail-mi, and said that the hammer is scummy as **** if mail-mi flips town. Robz also does not like playing against IC voltaire when he is scum. I think if robz wasn't scum then e would be more likely to die because he is more obvtown b/c of the flavor thing and b/c they could get voltaire to vote for robz for the win.

And that's just about it. Everything D4 of robz is pretty null.

So maybe more like 90% sure robz is scum. The later stuff with the voltaire death and the hammer is super duper scummy.

[liopoil]

And..... that's why e should unvote. We lose if ichimaru is town. Which is likely, but less likely than robz being scum.

I'm not going to vote for robz right now though, because right now either scum can quickhammer or ichimaru is scum. If scum can quickhammer we lose, and if ichimaru is scum we should lynch him instead of robz, because robz isn't quite 100% scum.

however, I hope e reconsiders.

[2.71828.....]

unvote because I am playing dominion right now and havent read the case against robz

[liopoil]

and of course I can be more confident than everyone else can in robz being scum because I know that if he is town then scum missed a quickhammer opportunity. but unfortunately nobody else can trust that, so I left it out of the case.

PPE: thank you.

[Robz888]

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

[liopoil]

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

O.o

good thing e unvoted!

[Robz888]

Oh, I missed that he did.

[liopoil]

okay, NOW we have to lynch robz, right?

this doesn't necessarily mean ichimaru is town though.

[liopoil]

Vote: Robz888

[Robz888]

?

[Robz888]

I'm confused.

[liopoil]

what do you mean "?". You tried to quickhammer ichimaru. No other reason for you to vote for him. Pretty clear that you wanted to lynch yuma, not ichi. No reason for you to vote w/out explanation.

[Teproc]

Well, that's prety damning Robz. Also, the last few posts by Ichimaru and liopoil have me increasingly convinced that liopoil is the townie in that pairing.

Yeah, we should lynch Robz today, definitely.

[Robz888]

Obviously you see that the pro-town thing for me to do, in my position, is to vote for anyone who has votes other than myself.

[Robz888]

Well, that's prety damning Robz. Also, the last few posts by Ichimaru and liopoil have me increasingly convinced that liopoil is the townie in that pairing.

Yeah, we should lynch Robz today, definitely.

It's not damning at all. It's my optimal move.

[Robz888]

Obviously you see that the pro-town thing for me to do, in my position, is to vote for anyone who has votes other than myself.

Other than Lekkit and 2.7, of course. Anyone else has a 3/4 chance of being scum. My town read is lio.

[liopoil]

oh. well, sort of. There is still one townie who you, as "town" don't want to lynch. And now that you know e unvoted you are still voting for him? And you know that you alone can't get the lynch. I could understand if it was a hammer, but in this case, it only helps him get lynched if he was town because other townies aren't about to be voting for him soon.

[Teproc]

Congrats, you found a decent town narrative. Still, the "vote: Ichimaru" with nothing else in the text is scummy.

Not that it matters anyway, liopoil's case on you and other few recent posts have me increasingly confident that he is town, which means you are scum. Or liopoil is very good, but oh well.

Oh, and the 3/5 mistake by Ichi is definitely something. There is a HUGE difference between looking at 3/4 and 3/5, and I don't think town!anyone would make that mistake.

[liopoil]

I guess I don't really care that your vote is there, since at least one of you and ichi is scum anyway.

[Teproc]

Actually that vote doesn't make sense to me either way. Hm.

[liopoil]

This feels like DS9. I came into the lylo feeling heavily that robz was the scum, but he got me to vote for yuma instead, who was also scum. So I think teproc is the townie, and I pretty much can't get it wrong. still, we're lynching robz. But he's giving me way more doubts than I should be having.

I actually think at this point that the vote was him trying to be townie by voting by whoever has a vote on them, not a quickhammer attempt.

[Teproc]

Yeah, quickhammer doesn't make sense. Even if Ichimaru is town, I don't think yuma is on anyway.

Probably a weird attempt at towncred, especially because it works with his defense for the mail-mi quickhammer. But I'll stop second-guessing myself, I'm sure enough now. Lekkit not having posted in forever is the only thing preventing me to vote Robz now.

[Robz888]

Lio, I am just, I am amazed that you can be more certain on me than on yuma and Ichi.

[Robz888]

Yeah, quickhammer doesn't make sense. Even if Ichimaru is town, I don't think yuma is on anyway.

Probably a weird attempt at towncred, especially because it works with his defense for the mail-mi quickhammer. But I'll stop second-guessing myself, I'm sure enough now. Lekkit not having posted in forever is the only thing preventing me to vote Robz now.

Or, it's exactly what I said it was, because lynching me is a guaranteed loss, and lynching any one else (of the suspects) has a 75% chance of killing scum.

[Teproc]

Yes, it could be. But everything else is pointing me to you being scum.

I do feel more confident about yuma than you. But it hardly matters at this point, since 2.7 seems more likely to lynch you than yuma, so I'll be voting for you. I admit there is a risk that you are town, and in that case I'm sorry and I'm officially an awful town player, but I am willing to bet the game on liopoil being town, which means lynching anyone of Robz/yuma/Ichimaru.

[liopoil]

I'm having trouble deciding who I'm more confident now. I need to imagine a scenario where Teproc is scum - who is town in that scenario?

Probably robz actually. Unvote

Teproc, if I am scum, who do you think the townie is?

[liopoil]

and I mean, that makes me feel better about Teproc being town, because if he isn't then robz is probably town, which is false!

So let's just lynch all the scum? who wants to go first?

[Teproc]

If you're scum, Ichimaru is town I think. That's based on the wagon on you day 1, where I think one of you two had to be town because I don't believe Ichi would put you as L-2 as a newbie playing scum. One of the first advice he would have gotten from Robz and yuma is that bussing day 1 is not a great idea in general, and should only be done in extreme circumstances, which was obviously not the case here.

Robz is very good at making me second-guess myself here. If I were in 2.7's or Lekkit's position, I would probably not lynch Robz, but the extremely small lynch pool is helping here. Assuming I'm right, that is.

So yeah, Ichimaru. Which is why I would prefer to lynch yuma/robz today. But ultimately I don't think I'll change my mind on you/Ichimaru.

[liopoil]

If you're scum, Ichimaru is town I think.

so, let's lynch Yuma first then?

[Teproc]

That's what I would do yes, but mostly it comes down to who 2.7 and Lekkit think is scum. It's easier for us to think in terms of entire scumteams because we only have to identify one townie, but ultimately if they both want to lynch, say, Ichimaru first, I'll take the risk and do it.
 
The reason for that is, if we're right, we'll go all the way, since scum will kill the ICs at night. So if we lynch yuma today, then Lekkit gets killed and we lynch whoever 2.7 agrees to lynch between Robz and Ichimaru (assuming we convince 2.7 of this), and then it's us two and the last scum left. So now that I'm pretty confident in having identified the scum, I'll lynch whoever 2.7 and Lekkit want to, because I'll have to vote for Ichimaru at some point anyway.

The counterargument to this is that I might change my mind, but I don't think I will. Or, well, I don't think I should.

[liopoil]

Ahh, okay. So, Lekkit and E:

You have three options for lynch, robz, yuma, and ichimaru gin. Pick one, we'll sheep you.

[Teproc]

Basically my only fear here is that scum!liopoil saw that I was undecided on Ichimaru/liopoil but pretty confident on Robz/yuma and he decided that his best chance was to eventually buddy me into lynching Ichimaru. If that's the case, I mean, he did a great job of saying what I thought even before I posted it sometimes (the 3/4 vs 3/5 thing, Ichi advocating for the lynch of his scum reads 2 and 3, other stuff I can't remember right now), and I'll just tip my hat to him if that's the case.

[2.71828.....]

Ahh, okay. So, Lekkit and E:

You have three options for lynch, robz, yuma, and ichimaru gin. Pick one, we'll sheep you.

You guys know which one of these three I want.  I will wait and hopefully Lekkit shows up and has some stuff to say.

[liopoil]

Basically my only fear here...

Basically my only fear here is that lekkit is scum. Oh wait, that's impossible. good. I guess Teproc could be scum. Yeah, that's my only fear.

and now we wait for a lekkit-prod...

hey, maybe yuma will have something to say tomorrow too.

Also, voltaire, if you're watching in the speccy, POE ftw! (maybe I'm being a bit too confident here)

I've been posting way too much today. I'm out for a while. Bye guys!

[yuma]

What I saw was :
- yuma reread Robz yesterday and determined that he was scummy and was his biggest scum read of the game
- liopoil was pushing for Robz's lynch (it certainly read like you were asking me to vote now by the way)
- yuma saw that, and wondered if it meant that liopoil was excited town or just scum bussing. When I saw that, I wondered if it meant that liopoil was scum trying to win the game by lynching Robz. I'm town, so yuma having a very different reaction seemed scummy to me.

Maybe this is all wrong because town!yuma isn't paranoid as me in those situations (come to think of it, he certainly wasn't in GoT), but I don't think it's as ridiculous as yuma makes it sound.

But the part you are leaving out is what I added in italics above...

I was going to add more about this (and a lot to talk about below apparently), but time to watch Buffy with the wife so it will have to wait... Sorry.

[yuma]

What I saw was :
- yuma reread Robz yesterday and determined that he was scummy and was his biggest scum read of the game
- liopoil was pushing for Robz's lynch (it certainly read like you were asking me to vote now by the way)
- yuma saw that, and wondered if it meant that liopoil was excited town or just scum bussing. When I saw that, I wondered if it meant that liopoil was scum trying to win the game by lynching Robz. I'm town, so yuma having a very different reaction seemed scummy to me.

Maybe this is all wrong because town!yuma isn't paranoid as me in those situations (come to think of it, he certainly wasn't in GoT), but I don't think it's as ridiculous as yuma makes it sound.

But the part you are leaving out is what I added in italics above...

I was going to add more about this (and a lot to talk about below apparently), but time to watch Buffy with the wife so it will have to wait... Sorry.

What I mean here is that if you add the part there is no problem because I am working with the assumption that Robz is scum and wanting to see how liopoil fits into that assumption.

[yuma]

So, e, you're not willing to vote for Robz, and IIRC not for yuma either ?

Ugh. Not sure how we do this then.

I might vote Robz, but I think Liopoil is scummier between Robz/Lio, and while it is not necessarily town/scum here, I think that if Lio flips scum Robz is much less likely to be scum

Either way, any way, Yuma IS scum. He has to be. He is weirdly and totally uniquely STILL ducking serious involvement in this game. THIS IS NOT TOWN YUMA. This is scum yuma, who has been very very lucky. And has benefited from extreme personalities stealing all the focus, and me sitll being around to distract in the endgame.

Whoever the other town is, there is NO way it is yuma. You must all see that.

You must all see that Robz is just spouting stuff out to show that I am scum without backing up any of it.

As far as I can tell Robz hasn't reread me. He hasn't said how I am acting weird. He has said that I am "ducking" serious involvement in this game which just plain pisses me off! I have had far more involvement in this game today than you have!

So mostly this is just Robz trying to get me lynched today instead of him for the win. I mean he hasn't done anything to actually show why I am mafia.... just said it over and over again. Compare to Chocolate Factory where he put a large amount of effort to show that Teproc and Voltaire were scum (along with saying it over and over again).

[yuma]

Deadline: Monday, January 19th at 8 pm

That date is wrong.  January 19 was Sunday, and yesterday.  When is the deadline?

Deadline should be the 26 due to 10 day deadlines:

Days Will last roughly 10 days each and Night will last roughly 2 days.

[yuma]

So my working theory at the moment is that liopoil is town. This is just based off the interactions that have come about today.

This is what I have seen as I received the e-mail updates...

1. Robz trying to semi-buddy up to liopoil by saying he thinks that liopoil is town to elicit a town read from liopoil (despite liopoil heavily suspecting Robz)... ultimately it failed.

2. teproc really buddying up to liopoil, basically I feel as though teproc has mirrored liopoil. When liopoil wants to go for Robz so does he. When liopoil moves to me, so does teproc. When he wants to go to Ichimaru, so does he. Now... if liopoil is town, this means that the scum team is Ichimaru/Robz/Teproc. So two of those possibilities are bussing, but as long as Teproc can stay on liopoil's good side and not get himself lynched he is pretty golden. (although I saw that Teproc has mildly accused liopoil of doing the buddying instead... so that should at least be looked at closer).

3. liopoil hasn't been swayed by 2.7's move toward other players very much. I think if liopoil were scum he would be more willing to move toward me or Ichimaru or Teproc (again  one is a partner and would be bussing at the least), but he has stayed pat on Robz throughout.

Back to buffy!

[liopoil]

yuma wants to buddy me too? cool!

[2.71828.....]

yuma wants to buddy me too? cool!

yeah, with both Robz and yuma thinking you are town you are basically confirmed town.  (not actually true)

I do like some of the stuff yuma just put out and it is reminding me of why I had a town read on him before Robz came along and caused me to doubt it. 

[liopoil]

To robz and yuma: if you think I'm town, and you are also town, that means Teproc is scum. Why should I believe that Teproc is scum?

[liopoil]

Serious question though, I want you both to try to convince me. Otherwise, I'm sticking with Teproc being the townie and you two and ichimaru are the scum. I don't ask ichimaru because he thinks I'm scum, and so might believe Teproc to be the townie.

[Robz888]

To robz and yuma: if you think I'm town, and you are also town, that means Teproc is scum. Why should I believe that Teproc is scum?

My sense is that he has changed his mind a lot, but not in like a super natural way. He's definitely ready to go whatever way is necessary. Hasn't ruffled feathers. Is perfectly happy to have me lynched. Don't really see any uber-acquitting things about him, certainly.

[Robz888]

For me, it's just sort of POE, since you (lio) are coming across very townie, and yuma and Ichi are scum.

[2.71828.....]

So, e, you're not willing to vote for Robz, and IIRC not for yuma either ?

Ugh. Not sure how we do this then.

I might vote Robz, but I think Liopoil is scummier between Robz/Lio, and while it is not necessarily town/scum here, I think that if Lio flips scum Robz is much less likely to be scum

Either way, any way, Yuma IS scum. He has to be. He is weirdly and totally uniquely STILL ducking serious involvement in this game. THIS IS NOT TOWN YUMA. This is scum yuma, who has been very very lucky. And has benefited from extreme personalities stealing all the focus, and me sitll being around to distract in the endgame.

Whoever the other town is, there is NO way it is yuma. You must all see that.

You must all see that Robz is just spouting stuff out to show that I am scum without backing up any of it.

As far as I can tell Robz hasn't reread me. He hasn't said how I am acting weird. He has said that I am "ducking" serious involvement in this game which just plain pisses me off! I have had far more involvement in this game today than you have!

So mostly this is just Robz trying to get me lynched today instead of him for the win. I mean he hasn't done anything to actually show why I am mafia.... just said it over and over again. Compare to Chocolate Factory where he put a large amount of effort to show that Teproc and Voltaire were scum (along with saying it over and over again).

Robz, what do you have to say about this? I reread D3 of Chocolate Factory and you are definitely different.  Your tunneling there involved quotes, involved proofs, along with the insistence that they were scum.  You were excited town who had figured it out and had caught the scum.  Here it is just insistence that yuma is scum.

[yuma]

Serious question though, I want you both to try to convince me. Otherwise, I'm sticking with Teproc being the townie and you two and ichimaru are the scum. I don't ask ichimaru because he thinks I'm scum, and so might believe Teproc to be the townie.

It's coming!

although I am not too concerned with convincing you honestly... because there is a half decent chance that I am wrong about you (and my read on you is kinda pending a full reread of you coming tomorrow). I am far more concerned with convincing 2.7 and Lekkit. Hopefully whoever is the townie, if it isn't Teproc, will be convinced along with the two ICs.

I am sorry I can't just whip it up and put something with quotes and everything like I used to be able to do at a moment's notice. That just isn't as feasible for me anymore

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 4.1

ichimaru Gin (1): Robz888

Not Voting (6): teproc, Lekkit, 2.71828, yuma, ichimaru gin, liopoil

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline: Sunday, January 26th at 8 pm

Lekkit has beed prodded

[yuma]

Now... if liopoil is town, this means that the scum team is Ichimaru/Robz/Teproc. So two of those possibilities are bussing, but as long as Teproc can stay on liopoil's good side and not get himself lynched he is pretty golden. (although I saw that Teproc has mildly accused liopoil of doing the buddying instead... so that should at least be looked at closer).

But for this to work that means my previous assumption of Ichimaru and Teproc not being scum buddies (or that at least one of them is town based off their interactions from day2) would have to be false, so that makes me question my town read on liopoil a little bit meaning the scum team would have to be liopoil-Robz-X... Ugh.

[yuma]

Ok:

time to start this, I am going to try and keep this rather simple if possible... One thought for people... am I the only one that is surprised that mafia didn't bus yesterday? I mean I guess they probably did to an extent, but just not enough to get anyone lynched. Because at that point losing a scum mate was pretty high odds... I guess i need to look back at the mail-mi wagon closer, but the question we kinda need to ask is would mafia be more likely to want to vote for mail-mi or would they want to be bussing and were pleasantly surprised when townies (for the most part) lynched mail-mi instead? I don't know if I have an answer to that, but I think in that situation mafia probably starts out of the gate bussing... anyways... on to the reads...

ichimaru
- had interactions with liopoil day1 (was the fourth vote on the mid-day wagon)
- had major interactions with teproc day2. Both obviously voted for each other and there was some pretty heavy dialogue between the two of them. I should mention that teproc had some pressure on ichimaru from day1... "playing up the newb card" I think was how he put it...
- continues the pressure on teproc into day3...
- worth noting that I don't think he ever found robz suspicious until very, very recently. Day3 he says at one point that he is willing to lynch him, but almost everyone is in front of robz at that point. It is also worth noting that robz has basically done the same thing. They almost never talked about each other except to say that they didn't want to lynch each other.
- He basically started the wagon on mail-mi, which if he is scum is very enterprising... I know that when I was scum my first game I didn't really push for wagons myself. I waited until others made them for me (he also created the teproc wagon day2 on teproc...) but that might be more of a personality thing than an alignment thing?
- his posts of today are odd I guess... The 3/5 thing I think is insignificant, as I know that mistake has been made in the past as town.
- but really I think the most compelling piece of evidence here is that his read on Robz was null or town until it had to be scummy...

liopoil
- lurked day1....
- pressure from robz pretty early. Now if Robz is scum, this doesn't surprise me. Robz has been very upfront about the need to get pressure as mafia early game. I think he first talked about this in modern community. Yep, this is what he said, mostly based off what he saw from Wibbley Wobbly Mafia:

Anther thing, I am convinced that it is GOOD to come under suspicion early if you are scum. For a scum person, the longer things go without you getting suspicion, the harder it will be to shake it when you DO get suspicion.

- his reaction to ichimaru's vote was something of: "good point, I am lurking, I'll post more" and even kinda defended ichimaru from ashersky's policy vote.
- I still maintain that my theory that liopoil as town gets angry, liopoil as mafia gets practical, but after I posted it it really doesn't apply as much as he would be aware of it either way. I guess the fact that liopoil hasn't stopped being "practical" says something though to speak toward his townieness now to an extent...
- he thinks his parents are aliens...
- day2 moved robz up to his "would lynch" area. I dont' think he ever voted for him, but put some pressure there...Actually he did vote for robz at one point, but only for 15 posts it looked like the impetuous was that ashersky voted for robz and lekkit voted for ashersky I think. at this point he kinda ignored the case on teproc... basically said "eh, can't remember the case"
- before the lekkit claim his scum reads were "Robz and teproc"
- ok, now we are to the 2.7 flavor thing, which does read town. There is a narrative for why he might do it as mafia as voltaire pointed out
- he has been willing to lynch robz for a long time, and not really without cause.
- was not on the mail-mi lynch, although he said he found him scummy. So as I mentioned before, where is scum going to be in respect to mail-mi. Robz I think is pretty obviously scum in this situation. Liopoil/teproc I am less sure of.



Conclusions:

I find Robz to fit as partners to everyone: teproc*, liopoil, ichimaru. I also have found his play to be scummy.

I find liopoil to be the towniest from play, but I can see him as partners with teproc, ichimaru and liopoil

Ichimaru I see as partners for liopoil and Robz, but not Teproc.

Teproc I see as partners for liopoil and Robz, but not Ichimaru.

So in the end I don't know if I really learned anything new. I think i just solidified that I think Robz is scum and that it would be extremely neglectful to not lynch him today. I don't know about the others unfortunately and fear that tomorrow and the next day may just end up being a crap shoot to hit the right two (although I think I am more confident about teproc than I am about liopoil or ichimaru based off some other stuff I want to mention in a later post as this one is getting long)


*most of my thoughts about teproc and robz are actually more based off earlier yesterday and today where teproc defended robz until basically a few hours ago... and day2 where robz defended teproc and instead pushed through the ashersky lynch.

[Teproc]

I defended Robz until hours ago ? Um, no. I did defend Robz a lot yesterday, but my second post today was all about the scum team was Robz/yuma/x.

[Teproc]

Looking back, it wasn't actually my second post at all, but whatever, I'm talking about the reread I did early in the day.

[yuma]

Your first post, yes:

I'm not sure what to think of Robz's hammer. It's scummy, but my previous arguments for his towniness still look valid to me. I have a bad gut feeling about yuma, but after mail-mi flipped town, I'm not sure what to think anymore.

Oh, and it case it wasn't obvious, we're in lylo. Quickhammering is difficult for scumand probably too risky but still, be careful with your votes.

But others have been more subtle, but I have noticed them...

liopoil is pushing for Robz's lynch. This can mean one of three things :
- both are scum and liopoil wants credit for bussing his partner energetically
- liopoil is scum and really wants to win right now
- liopoil is town and thinks he found scum

In your post above, you are putting emphasis on 1 and 3. If you were town, 2 would be your biggest concern.

this post doesn't directly defend Robz, but I think it is intended to make it look like my scum read on robz was not valid or to make me question it in someway...

and these two:

So, this tells us everyone wants to lynch Robz ? That's a little worrying, but with his super scummy hammer on mail-mi, it would make sense for the scum team to just bus him today. Although why even hammer mail-mi then ? I guess one for one trade is pretty good for scum at this point, especially if they know there are no PRs left (Lekkit is basically a VT now).

The thing is : are we really never going to lynch Robz in the next three days because of that ? I don't think so, so we might as well lynch him today and see if we lose right away.

I could vote Robz now but I guess I'll wait for Lekkit to show up and 2.7 to finish his reread.

Not being suspected can be scummy, but not for yuma. A lot of people give him day 1 passes, and he helped get the game going again on day 2.

Everyone being willing to lynch Robz is scaring me a little, but even if we lynch, say, yuma today, I'll want to lynch Robz next, so I guess we might as well just do it now (not literally) and see how it goes.

Before I go sleep : I'm really sorry to have upset you yuma, it wasn't my intention at all.

PPE : 2.7, have you thought about a massclaim ? Like the flavour claim, it has a pretty high chance of being useless, but I think it's worth doing in the off chance it isn't.

So yeah, it hasn't been as obvious as it was yesterday, but I do feel like you have been pushing my lynch much, much stronger than robz and of late it appears that you are pushing for ichimaru more than robz. You keep saying you are willing to vote for robz, but at the same time aren't...

[Teproc]

Ok, this is ridiculous. I have stated repeatedly that I'm willing to lynch Robz. Yes I would prefer lynching you, because Robz's play is making me paranoid that he might be town, but overall you are both my preferred lynches. I'm not voting for him because we're at lylo and I want to wait for Lekkit to show up, something that I have also said repeatedly.

What you're quoting here is not defending Robz, it's second-guessing.

I'm not pushing for Ichimaru's lynch at all, I would MUCH rather lynch you or Robz. THe fact is though, 2.7 prefers the Ichimaru lynch, and, as I explained earlier, I will lynch whoever the ICs want to lynch in the {Robz, yuma, Ichimaru} pool. I'm less sure about Ichimaru than about you or Robz, but it's a risk I'll have to take at sme point anyway.

Seriously though, saying things like "You keep saying you are willing to vote for robz, but at the same time aren't..." at lylo is incredible. If I were voting for Robz right now, you'd be yelling at me for not respecting the possibility of a quickhammer.

[yuma]

I am not saying it is scummy you aren't voting. No... instead that you want to lynch me more than Robz. When I know I am town this is a big deal to me. It has to be.

If you are mafia and if you are partners with robz. You want to be able to seem like you are willing to vote robz if it comes to that... hence putting him at the top.

But if you are mafia and if you are partners with robz, you would greatly prefer to lynch me first! Because you would win! This is what is raising my flags. You defended Robz yesterday because you could and kinda get away with it. Today, obviously defending Robz wouldn't be a good idea because if he gets lynched and flips scum... you are in trouble!!!! So you have to put him up there, but push for the mislynch of me over him.

[yuma]

add in that Robz has obviously been pushing the hardest to get me lynched, it looks like a conjoined effort on the part of the two of you to try and get me lynched... if it fails then you vote for Robz (saving face) and try again tomorrow to get me lynched the next day

[Teproc]

Ok, that makes more sense I guess. But I can't really do much to respond to that. It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

And I don't think the quotes you have here actually show me defending Robz. It shows me being paranoid. The first one I don't necessarily want to go over again, but it has nothing to do with Robz really, and in the two other ones I'm still clearly stating that I want to lynch him despite some reservations. I guess if I was a scum mastermind I would want to be subtle about it in that way, but again, there's not much I can respond to that.

[2.71828.....]

I have been rereading some and I think that it is very possible for Robz and Ichimaru to be scum together.  Robz has done zero evaluation of Ichimaru the entire game, and he has admitted to it saying it is because Ichimaru is new.  However, Robz has had absolutely zero analysis of Ichimaru even in later days.  He then votes for him out of the blue after I voted Ichimaru.  I don't like it. 

I think scum right now is Robz and Ichimaru.

I really think yuma is town, but there is that nagging sensation that both he and robz are town and they are pulling off a great stunt for all of us to see.  However, I doubt that based on yuma from the rest of the game.

Liopoil is an interesting case.  Robz started the wagon on him, which got to L-2, and then Robz was the first to unvote.  Ichimaru was the L-2 vote against Liopoil.  Now, was Robz trying to protect his partner from being in a dangerous position on that wagon?  Or was Robz unvoting because his scum partner liopoil was getting too close to a lynch?  If the second is the case then what do we think about Ichimaru now?  Right now I think that liopoil is town, but that is a tentative read.

Which means that if Liopoil and Yuma are both town, Teproc must be scum.  Then we run into the situation that Yuma talks about how Teproc and Ichimaru are probably not scum together.  I believe most of that stems from their play on D2 and D3 I guess?  I need to go back and look at that interaction again, but right now I am comfortable thinking scum are Robz/Teproc/Ichimaru

[liopoil]

Why do you think yuma is town again?

[yuma]

I believe most of that stems from their play on D2 and D3 I guess?  I need to go back and look at that interaction again, but right now I am comfortable thinking scum are Robz/Teproc/Ichimaru

Well if you look at it, basically what happens is that:

1. Teproc starts out with a mild scum read on Ichimaru day1 (doesn't vote) but puts some pressure on him at a time when no one else does... this is rather null as it very well could be one scum mildly bussing the other (especially if Robz--who I think would be their partner in this scenario, as do you...--gave a pregame lecture about the importance of making sure they got some amount of pressure early, but that is purely conjecture I suppose... liopoil did Robz mention this idea in ToyStory as I am only remembering it from ModernCommunity) (just noticed this as I was rereading that toward the end of day teproc puts ichimaru in his won't lynch category despite the earlier scum read...

2. Teproc continues that scum read on Ichimaru, this time with a vote. Ichimaru reacts back with what I would still call a OMGUS vote--he eventually gives a full read for it and Teproc backs off. Again, this is kinda null... maybe even more on the scum partners side of things, as both vote for each other at a time when there isn't much focus on them except for what each other is brining as instead everyone is talking about ashersky I believe, except!!!!

3. Except, Ichimaru continues to vote for Teproc until the end of day and while he says he is willing to vote for and then hammer ashersky but he doesn't... I think if they are partners there is a strong possibility that teproc would have moved away from Teproc to ashersky to ensure that his partner didn't end up getting lynched as he had both the opportunity and the cause as ichimaru had a scum read on ashersky from earlier and an earlier vote...* That is I think for a newbie player it would have taken a stronger resolve than I had as a newbie scum back in the day to stay on partner!Teproc throughout all of that. So, yes, maybe ichimaru had that resolve as scum to continue to buss when their was a clear mislynch opportunity presented, but I don't know if I would call it likely...

So instead I think the narrative, if I look solely at this situation, is that ichimaru was either:

1. scum who wanted to stay off wagon from the ashersky wagon, which he knew would be a mislynch
2. or town who was correctly on scum (of course he didn't know that)

and not of 3. ichimaru being scum and continuing to vote for his partner at that time

*note that as I am reading back this actually isn't true, ichimaru never voted for ashersky day2 and actually throughout most of the day had a town read on ashersky until very late, so this might change my thinking a bit as ichimaru seems to suddenly be willing to lynch ashersky when it has become obvious that the lynch is going to be either ash or teproc, but ultimately doesn't have to as ashersky hammered himself.

[Teproc]

Well if you look at it, basically what happens is that:

1. Teproc starts out with a mild scum read on Ichimaru day1 (doesn't vote) but puts some pressure on him at a time when no one else does... this is rather null as it very well could be one scum mildly bussing the other (especially if Robz--who I think would be their partner in this scenario, as do you...--gave a pregame lecture about the importance of making sure they got some amount of pressure early, but that is purely conjecture I suppose... liopoil did Robz mention this idea in ToyStory as I am only remembering it from ModernCommunity) (just noticed this as I was rereading that toward the end of day teproc puts ichimaru in his won't lynch category despite the earlier scum read...

The reason for Ichimaru being in my "won't lynch" category is that I agreed to give him a newbie pass for D1. If not, he would definitely have been in my lynch pool at that point.

I'm interested in what makes 2.7 think yuma is town. While he's done pro-town things (like getting the game back on track day 2), I've never seen him as particularly townie this game.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Just checking in. I'll have much more time to post after Thursday.

I see that Lekkit still hasn't showed up. With him being an IC and all, it would be nice to hear from him.

Everyone seems to have their own idea for who we should lynch. Man, at this point, even with the lynch pool as small as it is, I still feel like scum is evading us.

Still, our odds are better than ever. If we hit scum today, we aren't necessarily out of the park, but we have a lot better chances.

You know, not actually having witnessed stuff yet, I feel like once town hits one scum, it should be a lot easier to catch the rest of them.

Like if we can hit scum today, we'll have concrete reads that we can then analyze over all of the previous days.

Anyway, when I come back, I should have a reread done--something I haven't done in a little while. I'm feeling a little less sure on Lio, but I'll have to go back and check.

Deadline is the 26th?

Well, the important thing is we lynch because we're really sure that person's scum--not because of deadline constraints.

[Lekkit]

I'll be on a bit later today. I'm still alive, but have a lot on my plate right now.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'll be on a bit later today. I'm still alive, but have a lot on my plate right now.

Yeah. No pressure if you've got a lotta IRL stuff to take care of.

Your claim is worth like, a lot to town. If we win, I think you're MVP.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh. And before anyone accuses me of buddying. . .

Please, before Lekkit's claim, he was my pretty much top of my scum list.

And I've already gotten chided by Ash for not having enough respect for IRL reasons for lurking.

[liopoil]

Buddying didn't  occur to me until I read your second post. Great to see lekkit post, even though we never prodded him I think. Can we please still have a vote count and deadline and stuff?

[Teproc]

Vote Count 4.0

ichimaru Gin (1): Robz888

Not Voting (6): teproc, Lekkit, 2.71828, yuma, ichimaru gin, liopoil

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline: Sunday, January 26th at 8 pm

Lekkit has beed prodded

Nothing's changed I think.

[liopoil]

Oh wow, I totally missed that, thanks. I still thought we hadn't had a single vote count all of D4

[Ichimaru Gin]

Buddying didn't  occur to me until I read your second post. Great to see lekkit post, even though we never prodded him I think. Can we please still have a vote count and deadline and stuff?

Are you referring to my second post on this page, or my second post of that set of 3?

[liopoil]

the one where you said "before anyone accuses me of buddying..."

[2.71828.....]

the one where you said "before anyone accuses me of buddying..."

yeah.  Sounds like scum trying to get out in front of accusations.

Why do you think yuma is town again?

I will work on getting an organized answer to that sometime tonight.  I still need to cook/eat dinner first though, just checking in to see what happened after getting back home. 

Lekkit posted!  The thing I am most interested in is who he thinks scum is specifically between Ichi/Teproc and Robz/yuma or if either of those could be a pairing of scum.  I am kind of persuaded by Yuma's case for Ichi/Teproc not being scum together.  I also don't necessarily see both robz and yuma being partners.  (this is bad news for liopoil, who is kind of the odd man out here because then PoE says he is scum)

[Ichimaru Gin]

the one where you said "before anyone accuses me of buddying..."

yeah.  Sounds like scum trying to get out in front of accusations.

Why do you think yuma is town again?

I will work on getting an organized answer to that sometime tonight.  I still need to cook/eat dinner first though, just checking in to see what happened after getting back home. 

Lekkit posted!  The thing I am most interested in is who he thinks scum is specifically between Ichi/Teproc and Robz/yuma or if either of those could be a pairing of scum.  I am kind of persuaded by Yuma's case for Ichi/Teproc not being scum together.  I also don't necessarily see both robz and yuma being partners.  (this is bad news for liopoil, who is kind of the odd man out here because then PoE says he is scum)

Well considering that it was you who accused me of buddying before hand. Just wanted it understood that I was making that post in a professional, more meta-game sense.

[Robz888]

To reiterate: Ichi is definitely scum, and I am voting for him, and others should do so as well. He should be our lynch today.

[liopoil]

Robz, why all of a sudden prefer ichi over yuma?

[Robz888]

Because my yuma efforts failed to persuade anyone and at this point Ichi is actually markedly scummier. Everthing he says is scummy.

[2.71828.....]

yeah, sorry I didn't get down my thoughts on yuma last night.  I got distracted and it didn't happen.  I will definitely get comprehensive reads out on everyone before the lynch though because there is a decent chance (like 1/2 chance, unless scum really wants to help out and kill someone other than myself or Lekkit) that I am the NK tonight.

Right now I am thinking that Ichimaru is scum.  Like pretty confident.  Basically I would support the lynch except I will not support any lynch until Lekkit posts something of content.  We have until Sunday afternoon (basically) but I am totally happy with pushing a lynch through as soon as Lekkit posts.

I feel like the biggest decision that we have is between Robz or Yuma for scum.  Now, it might not be an "or" but rather an "and" but I do not think so.  Actually, I wouldn't mind lynching between those two today.  I feel like if that isn't our choice today, it will be what we have to choose from tomorrow.  We will basically not get any new information over the night, and I think that lynch will really help put the puzzle pieces of who is scum together.

But like I said, I really want two things to happen before the lynch:
1) Lekkit will post
2) I will give individual thoughts on each player

I can vouch for #2 happening by Saturday, and hopefully Lekkit will post by then as well.  I realize he has been having a hectic time IRL, but a fresh reread may be just the thing that pushes in the correct direction.

[Lekkit]

/out

I'm sorry but I have important IRL stuff to take care of. I'll tell you about it when it's sorted out.

[liopoil]

gah.

[liopoil]

gah.

this is a frustrated "gah!" but I get it and all lekkit.

Anyway, I hope we can get a replacement, but it is D4... modkill would be terrible, game over in fact.

lekkit, could you maybe just vote for someone? I mean, that's bad and all, but it's better than modkill

[mcmcsalot]

Hmm, this does provide a very difficult situation, I do not love the idea of subbing someone in at this stage of game.

[2.71828.....]

Can we just vote: Ichi

and then scum do the honorable thing and NK Lekkit?

[2.71828.....]

I mean, that seems like the most reasonable solution to me.  I know it kind of forces some things that might not have happened, but it does seem fair.

[2.71828.....]

I mean, that seems like the most reasonable solution to me.  I know it kind of forces some things that might not have happened, but it does seem fair.

I hate to be like "mafia must do this" but otherwise it is an auto-win, and I do not think mafia want that.  I think they would want to win because they outsmarted us

[Teproc]

I agree. I think scum would probably have killed you because Lekkit being absent makes things more difficult for town (and you're not an actual IC until Lekkit flips, although that hardly matters since everyone's agreed to believe Lekkit's claim).

Alternatively, mcmc you could maybe find someone in the speccy to replace ? That way they would be somewhat caught up at least.

I can vote Ichi now but I thought you wanted to get more reads in before 2.7, correct ?

[Teproc]

I mean I agree that it's not unreasonable to suggest that scum just NK Lekkit, but it's not ideal.

Actually it's probably making too many assumptions on the mafia's intentions.

[2.71828.....]

I can vote Ichi now but I thought you wanted to get more reads in before 2.7, correct ?

yeah, you are right. 

quickread on yuma really is that he has been super helpful, and in reading his posts I just don't find them scummy.   There has not been a single case brought against him using his own words against him.  (top of my head, correct me if I am wrong, but I think I am correct) I mean, this to me says that scum are attacking him because they know he can be dangerous to them.  At times like right now.

[2.71828.....]

Actually it's probably making too many assumptions on the mafia's intentions.

yeah, but the premise to this suggestion is that mafia want to win the game in the style and method that it is meant to be won.  They have a perfect game so far!  Why add an asterisk to that because a town member could not finish

[Teproc]

Well, if we still have a night it won't be a perfect game anyway because that means we lynched scum.

[2.71828.....]

Well, if we still have a night it won't be a perfect game anyway because that means we lynched scum.

It won't be a perfect game because we are about to go 3/3 on lynches

[Teproc]

I truly do think we are, too.

Well, if we still have a night it won't be a perfect game anyway because that means we lynched scum.

It won't be a perfect game because we are about to go 3/3 on lynches

I do think we are on our way to do this, unless liopoil is a mafia genius playing me / you mislynch me. These are seriously the two only ways I see us losing the game right now.

[liopoil]

two on ichimaru, because robz is bussing that means that we actually don't need lekkit's vote to lynch ichimaru gin.

somehow I doubt mafia will NK lekkit. e is clearly a better NK choice, and while it lets the game continue it gives mafia a disadvantage they did nothing to deserve.

[2.71828.....]

also, more reads:  I think the remaining scum are liopoil and Robz.  Robz brought up his fun little case against liopoil early, and Robz has admitted somewhere (speccy or other game or something) that early pressure on scum is a good thing.  Note that liopoil has recieved almost no pressure the rest of the game.  Note that Robz unvotes liopoil first once the wagon gets to L-2.  I do not think there is anything at all that prevents robz/liopoil from being on the same team

[2.71828.....]

two on ichimaru, because robz is bussing that means that we actually don't need lekkit's vote to lynch ichimaru gin.

somehow I doubt mafia will NK lekkit. e is clearly a better NK choice, and while it lets the game continue it gives mafia a disadvantage they did nothing to deserve.

yeah.  I know.  I was expecting to die tonight.  which is why I was planning on putting out reads.

[Teproc]

I don't either, but I do think Ichimaru and liopoil can't both be scum. Well they can, but I think it's the most unlikely pairing from my PoV.

Also liopoil's play has been quite townie all game.

[2.71828.....]

I don't either, but I do think Ichimaru and liopoil can't both be scum. Well they can, but I think it's the most unlikely pairing from my PoV.

Also liopoil's play has been quite townie all game.

so you think it is robz/yuma/ichi?

[Robz888]

I highly suggest mcmc lock the thread and confer with Galzria on what to do in this situation. We have to know what the Lekkit situation is before we proceed.

[Teproc]

@ Lekkit : I feel a little discouraged that you're asking me that, because I feel like I've been saying that ever since my reread early today. Well, I started unsure about who the third was between Ichimaru and liopoil, but the way they both played today made me more confident in Ichimaru being the third. To me we're taking a risk by lynching him before Robz or yuma, but it doesn't matter that much because if we lynched Robz and yuma, the endgame would be liopoil/Ichimaru/Me and I would have to make that same choice anyway.

@Robz : You're probably right.

[mcmcsalot]

Thread Locked

[mcmcsalot]

Updates To come at 12, Thread still locked.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 4.2

Not Voting (7): teproc, xeiron, 2.71828, yuma, ichimaru gin, liopoil, Robz888

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline: Monday, January 27th at 12 noon

Lekkit has beed replaced with Xeiron, votes have been reset, and 14 hours have been added to account for the time between lekkit's /out and now.

[liopoil]

Great! So, Xeiron, you're sort of IC. You're also a hider who is never going to hide again. And you know e is town for sure. Also, Ichimaru Gin, Yuma, and Robz are the three scum, which one would you like to lynch first?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Liopoil.

[liopoil]

Liopoil.

Are you Xeiron?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh. Hold on, I didn't notice that you failed to put yourself on the list of likely scum.

PPE: No I just love answering other people's questions.

[liopoil]

Nono, that was a list of who the scum ARE.

Xeiron, if you're wondering how I know who the scum are, here's how:

There are three scum left. Players alive are:

Yuma: scumread
Robz: scumread
Ichimaru Gin: scumread
Teproc: townread
Liopoil: I know I'm town
2.7: must be town if xeiron is town, also, townread
xeiron: highly unlikely to be scum due to claim

So, yeah, POE. Plus reads, and it fits. Personally, I think we should lynch yuma or ichimaru first because if Teproc is scum than I think robz is the townie.

[Robz888]

Hi xeiron, what a weird thing to have to jump into.

Liopoil is correct, except I am not scum and Teproc is (I think).

[Ichimaru Gin]

How is it that everyone missed Robz trying to quickhammer me?

I know I haven't been the most active lately--school started up, so I have less time during the days I mentioned earlier.

But really. We need to be a little more systematic about this. I would at least like to see a post with a case on me. Otherwise, it's concerning to me for two reasons:

1. I know I'm town

2. The lynch we make today *needs* to be the right one. And lynching someone who doesn't even have a formal case against them--when it will cost town the game, is worrying.

PPE: 1

[Ichimaru Gin]

Nono, that was a list of who the scum ARE.

Xeiron, if you're wondering how I know who the scum are, here's how:

There are three scum left. Players alive are:

Yuma: scumread
Robz: scumread
Ichimaru Gin: scumread
Teproc: townread
Liopoil: I know I'm town
2.7: must be town if xeiron is town, also, townread
xeiron: highly unlikely to be scum due to claim

So, yeah, POE. Plus reads, and it fits. Personally, I think we should lynch yuma or ichimaru first because if Teproc is scum than I think robz is the townie.

Well what does this look like to someone whom you have a scumread on but is in fact town?

For one, you are acting awfully sure of yourself for not being an IC. We have no confirmation that you're town, yet you mention it a lot.
I think town would acknowledge the possibility of other people thinking they are scum, while scum would just continue to drive away that they're town.

I think Robz is scum, not as sure on Yuma.
Teproc may be your townread in order to get town-credit person. But for now I'm calling a
Robz/Teproc/Liopoil scumteam.

Oh, and on my last post, I actually missed lio's post as well as Robz, so it should have been PPE 2 for that one.

[Teproc]

Hey xeiron, thanks for replacing !

I'm sure you're gonna reread a little, but, long story short, I agree with liopoil. I think he's town, and that leaves me with a Robz/yuma/ichimaru scumteam by PoE. If liopoil isn't town, I think it's Ichimaru, but I'm willing to take the risk today if that's the way the ICs (you and 2.7) want to go (2.7 wants to lynch Ichimaru, I don't recall what his second choice would be, I think it's Robz or me ?).

[liopoil]

Well, all the other suspects except for you think I'm town... and really, I just don't care. I'll defend myself if it looks like I might be lynched, but it really doesn't look that way.

[yuma]

Well everyone is summarizing their thoughts for xerion (probably a good thing, but xeiron I think should take stock of his own impressions first and then look at what others have to say... I am hoping he already had some and won't need to do much rereading) I'll do the same.

See the rest of the post I quoted for how I arrived at some of those conclusions...

Conclusions:

I find Robz to fit as partners to everyone: teproc*, liopoil, ichimaru. I also have found his play to be scummy.

I find liopoil to be the towniest from play, but I can see him as partners with teproc, ichimaru and liopoil

Ichimaru I see as partners for liopoil and Robz, but not Teproc.

Teproc I see as partners for liopoil and Robz, but not Ichimaru.

So in the end I don't know if I really learned anything new. I think i just solidified that I think Robz is scum and that it would be extremely neglectful to not lynch him today. I don't know about the others unfortunately and fear that tomorrow and the next day may just end up being a crap shoot to hit the right two (although I think I am more confident about teproc than I am about liopoil or ichimaru based off some other stuff I want to mention in a later post as this one is getting long)


*most of my thoughts about teproc and robz are actually more based off earlier yesterday and today where teproc defended robz until basically a few hours ago... and day2 where robz defended teproc and instead pushed through the ashersky lynch.

[liopoil]

I quickly reread Teproc just now, because I realized I never actually did that, and found nothing to make me second-guess myself.

[xeiron]

I have been following the game pretty close since the start of D4, so I know where we are.
I have done a brief reread of the other days as well.

My impression from before subbing in was Robz, yuma and Ichimaru Gin as scum.
I am least sure about Ichimaru Gin, so I would prefer lynching one of the other two.

[yuma]

I have been following the game pretty close since the start of D4, so I know where we are.
I have done a brief reread of the other days as well.

My impression from before subbing in was Robz, yuma and Ichimaru Gin as scum.
I am least sure about Ichimaru Gin, so I would prefer lynching one of the other two.

Then let's lynch robz

[liopoil]

Then let's lynch yuma.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Then let's lynch. . .wait.

[Robz888]

Vote: Yuma

[Teproc]

Hah, I like both of those ! We're only missing 2.7 saying "well, let's lynch Ichimaru".

As said before, I'll lynch whoever of Robz/yuma/Ichimaru the ICs want, preferably the first two.

[xeiron]

Are we ready to lynch someone now?
Or is there more talk to be done before voting?

[yuma]

Then let's lynch yuma.

your argument is so convincing... why do you want to vote for me now?

what happened to the "we can't do anything but lynch robz" from earlier?

[yuma]

Are we ready to lynch someone now?
Or is there more talk to be done before voting?

i think you and 2.7 need to talk some stuff through before we do anything....

[Robz888]

Are we ready to lynch someone now?
Or is there more talk to be done before voting?

We are ready now, provided the target is yuma or Ichi...

[Teproc]

Are we ready to lynch someone now?
Or is there more talk to be done before voting?

I think 2.7 has given his reads already so we're fine I think, but it would probably be better to wait for him to get here. We have a lot of time ahead of us, even more since the deadline has been extended.

I mean, I'm ready to lynch if that's what you want. I think 2.7 wants to lynch Ichimaru > Robz/liopoil for what it's worth.

[liopoil]

Vote: Yuma

e might not vote for yuma, but robz will bus. Or if robz doesn't bus, it becomes even more clear that he is scum, and we will lynch robz instead and yuma the next day.

PPE: robz is already bussing, so I'll hold off my vote for now. Unvote

Then let's lynch yuma.

your argument is so convincing... why do you want to vote for me now?

what happened to the "we can't do anything but lynch robz" from earlier?

a lot happened. namely, Teproc and I figured out who all the scum are.

[liopoil]

yeah, we can wait for e and xeiron to talk to each other a bit.

[xeiron]

I see that e did have Ichimaru, Robz, and liopoil as his top scumreads on the previous page.

[yuma]

Vote: Yuma

e might not vote for yuma, but robz will bus. Or if robz doesn't bus, it becomes even more clear that he is scum, and we will lynch robz instead and yuma the next day.

PPE: robz is already bussing, so I'll hold off my vote for now. Unvote

Then let's lynch yuma.

your argument is so convincing... why do you want to vote for me now?

what happened to the "we can't do anything but lynch robz" from earlier?

a lot happened. namely, Teproc and I figured out who all the scum are.

that still doesn't explain why i am scum... just that i fit into a possibility that you created or why you are pushing for me over robz if you think we are both scum...

calling lio/robz scum team here....

man... i can't stay i need to (get to) go be a dad and babysit

[Robz888]

Vote: Yuma

e might not vote for yuma, but robz will bus. Or if robz doesn't bus, it becomes even more clear that he is scum, and we will lynch robz instead and yuma the next day.

PPE: robz is already bussing, so I'll hold off my vote for now. Unvote

Sure whatever, but don't unvote please.

[liopoil]

Vote: Yuma

e might not vote for yuma, but robz will bus. Or if robz doesn't bus, it becomes even more clear that he is scum, and we will lynch robz instead and yuma the next day.

PPE: robz is already bussing, so I'll hold off my vote for now. Unvote

Sure whatever, but don't unvote please.

Got to let e try to dissuade us one last time... then I'll vote. With my vote scum only needs two people online at the same time to pull it off, should yuma be town.

[xeiron]

I am leaning on voting for Robz.
But I will wait for 2.7, so that he can have some words before we lynch.

[Teproc]

I guess I'd rather lynch Robz than yuma. I really don't see a scenario where he is town based on the way this day has gone. I can see it maybe for yuma although I find it highly unlikely as well, especially since I don't see him as a very plausible liopoil partner.

So Robz>yuma>Ichimaru for me.

[liopoil]

I guess I'd rather lynch Robz than yuma. --snip--

So Robz>yuma>Ichimaru for me.

This is why I think if Teproc is scum, Robz is town, and it is also why I prefer a yuma lynch over a robz lynch. yes, scum would have had a chance to quickhammer if robz was town for a while, but they can never know when I was online to be able to unvote because I am hidden.

I guess Teproc can use the same reasoning to think that if I am scum, yuma is town, but really, for a long time I was pushing the robz lynch.

but otherwise Teproc is right, Robz is the scummiest of the three... I suppose this just means that Teproc is town. If the ICs want robz lynched I'll go with it.

[Teproc]

Yep, we are having the exact same reasoning here. The fact that you want to lynch yuma over Robz is making me want to lynch Robz over yuma just in case. But really, I'll go for any of the two. I doubt it'll be yuma though, just because xeiron seems to prefer Robz and 2.7 thinks yuma is town.

[liopoil]

but isn't 2.7 sort of opposed to the robz lynch too? I guess he definitely prefers it over yuma...

random lynch between robz and yuma using the forum system?

[Teproc]

Which is ? Something to do with the time stamp ?

I doubt xeiron and 2.7 will want that, but I'd be fine with it, sure.

[Robz888]

Ugh, I guess I should put together a case for why Teproc is scum then? Can you give me time to do that? It's exactly as you worry it is, lio.

[Robz888]

I would actually be fine with random too. I think my 50% chance of living by random vote is greater than my chance of convincing anyone to listen to me.

[Robz888]

'1.1' is not a valid dice string!

[liopoil]

random lynch between robz and yuma using the forum system?

actually, I really like this idea. If teproc and one of the ICs agree to do this, we should.

PPE:

Which is ? Something to do with the time stamp ?

no, the forum has a die roll function. So, just for an example, this roll means nothing:

Rolled 1d2 : 2, total 2

PPE2: go ahead, I'll read your case if you make one.

[Robz888]

Oops, it came up yuma, how sad for him. Ready to vote now, yes?

[liopoil]

I would actually be fine with random too. I think my 50% chance of living by random vote is greater than my chance of convincing anyone to listen to me.

except you wouldn't self-vote if you got selected via coinflip.

[xeiron]

I guess I'd rather lynch Robz than yuma. I really don't see a scenario where he is town based on the way this day has gone. I can see it maybe for yuma although I find it highly unlikely as well, especially since I don't see him as a very plausible liopoil partner.

So Robz>yuma>Ichimaru for me.

This is why I think if Teproc is scum, Robz is town, and it is also why I prefer a yuma lynch over a robz lynch. yes, scum would have had a chance to quickhammer if robz was town for a while, but they can never know when I was online to be able to unvote because I am hidden.

I guess Teproc can use the same reasoning to think that if I am scum, yuma is town, but really, for a long time I was pushing the robz lynch.

but otherwise Teproc is right, Robz is the scummiest of the three... I suppose this just means that Teproc is town. If the ICs want robz lynched I'll go with it.

The very same quote by Teproc explains why I prefer to lynch Robz. Yuma could be town if liopoil is scum, and I am more worried about Liopoil being scum than Teproc at the moment.

[liopoil]

xeiron, what do you think about randomly selecting one of robz and yuma?

[xeiron]

xeiron, what do you think about randomly selecting one of robz and yuma?

I do not like it.

I will vote based on reads, not on dice rolls.

[Ichimaru Gin]

xeiron, what do you think about randomly selecting one of robz and yuma?

I do not like it.

I will vote based on reads, not on dice rolls.

I agree that something this important shouldn't be left up to chance.

[yuma]

random lynch between robz and yuma using the forum system?

actually, I really like this idea. If teproc and one of the ICs agree to do this, we should.

PPE:

Which is ? Something to do with the time stamp ?

no, the forum has a die roll function. So, just for an example, this roll means nothing:

This dice roll may have been tampered with!
Rolled 1d2 : 2, total 2

PPE2: go ahead, I'll read your case if you make one.

vote: liopoil

Seriously. He just jumped to the top of my scum read. I don't believe that he as town would be willing to put town's chances of winning on a random chance. Maybe he is just that confident but I don't buy it. At all.

What this looks like to me is an attempt at getting a 50% chance of winning outright for him and his partner Robz. The other 50% isn't that bad to him... his partner gets lynched... and he is still playing tomorrow (and it is what is likely to happen anyways).

I mean look at where we stand. xeiron prefers Robz. 2.7 thinks I might be town. And the lynch has come down to Robz or yuma. And then all of a sudden liopoil suggests a random lynch between the two of us! that is a 50% chance of hitting town! liopoil knows this and if he can convince people to do it, he is either golden and wins or back where he would have been anyways... he convinced robz and teproc to do it and just needed to get xeiron or 2.7 on board...

I have become very convinced at this point that liopoil and robz are partners. I don't know if their other partner is ichimaru or teproc, obviously it has to be one. Either liopoil or robz should be lynched today.

[Robz888]

This is an obvious conspiracy theory that I hope no one takes seriously. Can we lynch yuma now?

[yuma]

This is an obvious conspiracy theory that I hope no one takes seriously. Can we lynch yuma now?

So you really think that putting the game in the hands of random chance is the best way to win...? If you think that you can't be town! Or at the least can't be logically thinking town... (especially since if you are town you know that this has at best a 50% chance or at worst a 0% chance of allowing town to continue this game!)

It only benefits mafia and only mafia I think would support it. How can you not see that and take my concerns seriously? Oh... yeah, cause you are scum and know that you aren't town so there isn't a risk for you. Either you lynch me and win or you get lynched and your teammates still have a chance tomorrow.

[Teproc]

It makes some sense from liopoil's PoV (and mine) but whatever, it can't make sense for xeiron and 2.7 so it's a non-starter.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 4.3

Yuma (1): Robz888
Liopoil (1): Yuma

Not Voting (5): teproc, xeiron, 2.71828, ichimaru gin, liopoil

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline: Monday, January 27th at 12 noon

[2.71828.....]

We get a replacement (welcome xeiron) and all sorts of fun stuff happens. 

I am not necessarily tied down to an Ichimaru lynch, as I think that a Robz or Yuma lynch would give us more information as to who the remaining scum are.  I would be willing to vote yuma, but I need a better case from robz than "he is scum."  What scummy stuff has he done?  Or is it the fact that he has not done scummy stuff that makes him scum?  I don't know what meta arguments you might be using or other such inclinations that cause you to think he is scum.  Yuma has been voted for 3 times:
1)  An RVS Ashersky vote
2)  Robz just earlier
3)  Liopoil shortly after

None of these votes have explanations directly attached to them.  And I don't see another case built.

Robz, for example, has some very minor interactions with yuma here, here, here, and here.  Then Robz goes from this:

Lekkit and yuma are I think the most under-suspected players still alive. I don't feel much suspicion for yuma, but Lekkit probably deserves more of a critical eye than he had received so far.

[other stuff]

Townie seeming: Yuma, Voltaire, Ichimaru, liopoil

to this:

Yuma has gotten absolutely zero pressure, which is actually very scummy. He's had a much smaller presence than usual too, ostensibly due to VLA.

to this:

I don't see how yuma could possibly not be scum, at this point.

With nothing in between addressing yuma.  And after nothing at all, except for tunneling.  Like here (slight explanation that he has not recieved any pressure.  The rest don't have anything to them), here, here, here, here, here, and here.

When I read Robz, I can come up with scum narratives such as "I want to tunnel yuma because he is town and I am scum" but I don't come up with those for yuma.  Or things like "I want to build some easy pressure on my partner liopoil early to ease pressure later."  Where is the case against yuma?  I have not seen one, and will not vote for yuma or endorse that lynch until someone lays it out for me.  If the case is purely because he did not receive pressure early than I don't know what to say.  That is not his fault.  Sure, he wasn't as involved as he might usually be because of IRL stuff, but one of the reasons I read him town is that despite all those issues he still got on and contributed more than most people without IRL issues going on.  And not just checking in, but real content.  And no one has anything bad to say about anything he has said.  No case has been brought up concerning his reads, his voting history, or anything.  In my mind, the case was stated best by Ashersky:

vote: yuma because yuma.

[Teproc]

The thing is, while I'm fairly certain yuma is scum, I don't really have a strong case to make. I have arrived to that conclusion through PoE, and most of that is built on the fact that I know I'm town, which of course you can't reasonably assume.

I do think he has been a little scummy today. We have a whole discussion about his reaction to liopoil urging people to vote for Robz (it starts around here) but I'm assuming you've seen that already and it didn't convince you.

So yeah, I can't really make a case on him, unfortunately. I don't expect you to vote for him because of that. Really the only way you could be convinced that yuma is scum would be to get two stronger townreads in the lynch pool, but obviously you think liopoil is scummy so there's that.

[2.71828.....]

I know I'm town, which of course you can't reasonably assume.

yeah.  That is one thing.  I am just much more convinced of Robz than yuma.  You guys can lynch yuma after I am killed tonight (not so sure about that anymore, but still a good chance that I am) but I am not convinced of the PoE on yuma yet.  Maybe after one scum is caught, yuma might appear more scummy, but right now I just don't PoE down to him.  I end on a Robz/Ichi/liopoil right now probably.

[Teproc]

Yep, which is why we'll probably lynch Robz, since xeiron was advocating that as well. I trust liopoil will help even though RObz is the one he's less sure about. Otherwise, I guess yuma might bus anyway.

In fact, I think everyone's ready for a lynch, right ? Let's get this started.

vote: Robz

[2.71828.....]

I do think he has been a little scummy today. We have a whole discussion about his reaction to liopoil urging people to vote for Robz (it starts around here) but I'm assuming you've seen that already and it didn't convince you.

And that conversation was all about you putting words in his mouth.  That is more scumread on you than scumread on yuma there.

[Teproc]

Really ? I know yuma said that, but I don't think I was doing that at all. Confirmation bias might have skewed my vision there, but I really think yuma had a scummy approach.

Oh well. I guess I'll stop bringing it up since I'm the only seeing it.

[2.71828.....]

Deadline: Monday, January 27th at 12 noon

Also, I will not be around for this deadline.  My final vote will be placed on Sunday.

[yuma]

I know I'm town, which of course you can't reasonably assume.

yeah.  That is one thing.  I am just much more convinced of Robz than yuma.  You guys can lynch yuma after I am killed tonight (not so sure about that anymore, but still a good chance that I am) but I am not convinced of the PoE on yuma yet.  Maybe after one scum is caught, yuma might appear more scummy, but right now I just don't PoE down to him.  I end on a Robz/Ichi/liopoil right now probably.

Do you agree with me in regard to liopoil and his suggestion to random vote between Robz and me? I imagine you don't agree with him on it...

[2.71828.....]

Deadline: Monday, January 27th at 12 noon

Also, I will not be around for this deadline.  My final vote will be placed on Sunday.

or earlier if that happens. 

The thing about yuma right now for me is that I probably have a bit of a mafia blind spot for people who are useful and post and do stuff like that.  I know that isn't optimal by a long shot, but it is what it is, I acknowledge it, and work at avoiding it.  When I reread people I don't reread them to find towny things, I reread them to find anything that could possibly be construed as scummy about them.  This may lead to weak cases sometimes (like faust for example) that come to bad endings (like faust for example) but they get somewhere.  In my reread of yuma I am not getting any of those scummy vibes.  Is that because he is good scum at throwing me off, or is it because he is actually town?  I lean actually town. 

PPE: 1

[Ichimaru Gin]

I know I'm town, which of course you can't reasonably assume.

This to me, is one of the defining things that makes Teproc less scummy than Liopoil right now.

[2.71828.....]

I know I'm town, which of course you can't reasonably assume.

yeah.  That is one thing.  I am just much more convinced of Robz than yuma.  You guys can lynch yuma after I am killed tonight (not so sure about that anymore, but still a good chance that I am) but I am not convinced of the PoE on yuma yet.  Maybe after one scum is caught, yuma might appear more scummy, but right now I just don't PoE down to him.  I end on a Robz/Ichi/liopoil right now probably.

Do you agree with me in regard to liopoil and his suggestion to random vote between Robz and me? I imagine you don't agree with him on it...

yeah.  I am not a fan of flipping a coin for a lynch.  I don't think it necessarily makes him scum, but on top of PoE and other stuff against him, I think it does not make him look very towny

[2.71828.....]

I know I'm town, which of course you can't reasonably assume.

This to me, is one of the defining things that makes Teproc less scummy than Liopoil right now.

I do not understand the above statement by Ichimaru.  How does Teproc thinking he is town make you think he is town?

[Ichimaru Gin]

In the sense that Teproc acknowledges that there's no way for other people to know he's town.
While Liopoil seems very sure of himself and just expects people to think he's town.

[2.71828.....]

In the sense that Teproc acknowledges that there's no way for other people to know he's town.
While Liopoil seems very sure of himself and just expects people to think he's town.

yeah, I view that more as trying to make friends with the ICs than anything.  Which is kind of neutral leaning on scummy in my mind.  There is no problem with being confident that you are town.  I mean, when people list lynch candidates they always say "I have 1/4 shot at hitting scum" means there are 5 people left, but you remove yourself.  Everyone else also has the same 1/4 shot because they take themselves out of the pool. 

Are you just bus your partner here?  Follow Robz' example?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Are you just bus your partner here?  Follow Robz' example?

?
I don't understand this.

[2.71828.....]

Are you just bus your partner here?  Follow Robz' example?

?
I don't understand this.

because you were comparing Teproc and liopoil, saying Teproc was townier and liopoil was scummier in this situation

[Ichimaru Gin]

Are you just bus your partner here?  Follow Robz' example?

?
I don't understand this.

because you were comparing Teproc and liopoil, saying Teproc was townier and liopoil was scummier in this situation

Oh. So you were saying I was bussing liopoil then?

[2.71828.....]

Are you just bus your partner here?  Follow Robz' example?

?
I don't understand this.

because you were comparing Teproc and liopoil, saying Teproc was townier and liopoil was scummier in this situation

Oh. So you were saying I was bussing liopoil then?

a very mild bus. but yes

[liopoil]

I think there's enough out there for townies to accurately read me as town. So I sort of expect people to have a town read on me, but not really, because townies get things wrong all the time. The main point is that I don't care very much if people aren't assuming that I'm town. Why should I? I mean, obviously it makes my points more credible if they think I'm town, but really it doesn't matter much. The main person I need to convince that I'm town is my fellow suspected townie, which unless it is ichimaru gin or yuma, I have succeeded in doing.

the point of the random vote is since I want to lynch yuma and teproc wants to lynch robz, and there really is no way we are going to come to an agreement here because our wishes are based of the other's wishes. The point is with random lynch it is a compromise of sorts. however I understand that there is no reason for the ICs to like this plan because they don't know that at least one of Teproc and I is town. So it's not happening.

[Robz888]

Very very very drunk at the moment.

Someone said, I haven't presented much of a case against yuma. That's true.

Really, it's hard to muster energy for cases at this point, since from my perspective, any case I make will be correct 75% of the time. That's why I am certain yuma is scum. There is NO WAY he is the other townie.

[xeiron]

Vote: robz

[xeiron]

I think we are ready to lynch now.

Everyone except Liopoil and Robz seems to be fine with lynching Robz, and even Liopoil have him among his top three scumreads.

I do not think I can be convinced to vote anywhere else, so there is no point in delaying lynching further.

[yuma]

robz and liopoil are the same thing to me at this point, spouting of the same reasons (or lack thereof) of why I must be scum...

vote: robz

That is L-1... not that it really matters

[liopoil]

Well, robz is scum too, so intent to hammer.

[liopoil]

And if robz is somehow town, we lose anyway because ichimaru will come in and hammer. Vote: Robz888. If I die for some reason tonight (doubtful, I'm not IC) then teproc is town, the scum are ichimaru and yuma. As I've been saying.

[Teproc]

Good. No one is celebrating, so that's good news at least.

If I'm night killed, I guess xeiron and 2.7 are scum but that has a likelihood that is approximately equal to liopoil's parents being aliens.

[liopoil]

Vote: Robz888 to make sure because this:

"Robz888. If I die for some reason tonight (doubtful, I'm not IC) then teproc is town, the scum are ichimaru and yuma. As I've been saying."

is not the name of a player.

[liopoil]

If I'm night killed, I guess xeiron and 2.7 are scum but that has a likelihood that is approximately equal to liopoil's parents being aliens.

nah, I think it just means that scum think they can get me mislynched but not you. Also, this aliens thing just isn't going away, is it...

[liopoil]

also, just to make sure, xeiron, no hiding of course. can't afford any possibility of multiple deaths tonight.

I sort of think xeiron is dying tonight actually, because he is correct about who the scum are and e is wrong. I guess it could go either way.

[mcmcsalot]

Thread locked

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 4.4

Yuma (1): Robz888
Robz888 (4): teproc, xeiron, Yuma, liopoil

Not Voting (2): 2.71828, ichimaru gin

With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

Robz888 has been lynched, he was Zhen Ji, mafia goon.

Night 4 has begun and will last 48 hours. Day 5 begins Monday, January 27th at 12 noon

[mcmcsalot]

Night 4 has ended!

2.7 has been killed in the night, he was Zhuge Liang, many believed him to be a great magician capable of summoning the wind. However he was simply a student of astrology, capable or reading weather patterns. He was a Vanilla townie.

Day 5 has begun, Deadline will be  Thursday February 6th at 12 noon

[liopoil]

So, who will it be today, Yuma or Ichimaru Gin?

time to reread robz. I suggest my fellow townies do the same. So, everyone who doesn't want to claim scum, that is.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 5.0

Not Voting (5): Yuma, Ichimaru Gin, Xeiron, Liopoil, Teproc

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day5 has begun, Deadline will be Thursday February 6th at 12 noon

[yuma]

So, who will it be today, Yuma or Ichimaru Gin?

time to reread robz. I suggest my fellow townies do the same. So, everyone who doesn't want to claim scum, that is.

and I maintain that it should be you. If people reread robz they will see that you are a very likely scum partner for him. Whereas with teproc/ichimaru while they are also potential partners I don't see them being partners together with robz. So you must be scum. The early pressure he put on you, then backing off, along with your behavior toward him yesterday (early aggressive pressure to buss, then backing off when it looked like you might be able to swing a mislynch onto me) I think is indicative of your alliance with him.

Really, I am about 95% sure you are mafia. I don't know which of teproc/ichimaru is... maybe they could be together, but I highly, highly doubt it.

[Teproc]

Well, the 2.7 nightkill is logical in terms of ICness, but it's of course bringing suspicion on liopoil. Still think he's town right now, but rereading with actual knowledge that Robz is scum should help.

[liopoil]

I don't think we can get much from robz's interactions D4, it was clear the whole time that we were going to lynch him or one of his buddies, so he can bus freely. The only thing worth looking at is maybe setting people up for a mislynch today or tomorrow. days 1-3 are where we'll confirm that it is really yuma and ichi be able to get some info.

Also, I am not going to respond to ichimaru's or yuma's accusations against me today unless people seem to be taking them seriously.

[yuma]

I don't think we can get much from robz's interactions D4, it was clear the whole time that we were going to lynch him or one of his buddies, so he can bus freely.

I am not really looking at Robz's interactions yesterday. I am looking at your interactions yesterday. Robz probably knew he was likely going down and probably attempted to muddle the water as much as possible... I agree. But look at what liopoil did as I outlined above. Actually go back and see how he behaved. It is exactly how someone who is a partner would bus and then back off when it looked like he could win the game yesterday (the random lynch thing is especially indicative...)

And liopoil I guess you don't need to respond if you don't want to because what I am putting out there is what happened and they don't necessarily need your response to go back and look at it for themselves...

[liopoil]

Robz doesn't have many interactions with the three players I am interested in: yuma, teproc, and ichimaru

Yuma: gives him a D1 pass, but that's normal. Says his first post of D2 is a truthbomb. D3 doesn't feel much suspicion for him. D4 poof, first post says that he can't possibly see how yuma can not be scum, and continues to push this.
Ichimaru: hardly anything D1, then on D2 says the case on him is too good it must be terrible. D3 still feels like town, resistant to his lynch. D4 says he's probably scum early on.
Teproc: nothing D1, D2 didn't like his defense of ash, doesn't remember much else. Not excited for his lynch. D3 nothing, D4 at first has him as least scummy of suspects, later flails to make case on Teproc b/c wants to convince me he's scum.

So this just further convinces me that it's Yuma and ichimaru gin.

At this point, here's what I think scum's plan is:

they've realized from yesterday that it is unlikely for them to ever convince me that I should vote for Teproc. Xeiron and e too seemed less likely to vote for Teproc than they are for me. So I believe that scum have decided that they have to get me mislynched if they want to win. Both xeiron and e expressed doubt that I was town, e slightly more than xeiron, but they killed e anyway because killing xeiron would show that he was more right than e and killing e suggests that e was right, slightly at least. So now they are dead set on convincing Teproc or Xeiron to vote for me.

[yuma]

Robz doesn't have many interactions with the three players I am interested in: yuma, teproc, and ichimaru

Yuma: gives him a D1 pass, but that's normal. Says his first post of D2 is a truthbomb. D3 doesn't feel much suspicion for him. D4 poof, first post says that he can't possibly see how yuma can not be scum, and continues to push this.

....

So this just further convinces me that it's Yuma and ichimaru gin.

or it shows that from the start of day4 your and robz's plan was to either bus him or try and get me mislynched. Because you start out pushing hard for Robz to get lynched, but once people start thinking that I might be a better lynch you hop over there lickety-split... thinking you had a chance to win it all yesterday. You over played your cards I think and have been caught... at least you have been caught up for me... I am a little pessimistic that I will be able to convince teproc about this. Xeiron maybe... but it takes three to lynch. I really have no idea what ichimaru thinks about the subject as he has kinda been a revolving door when it comes to opinions on you (kinda makes me think he is your third scum partner, but I am not at all sure about this)...

actually I think having ichimaru as your partner makes sense as it is a good game plan.... if you get me lynched today you win... but you have a nice safe fall back once again in bussing ichimaru so that if he gets lynched you can say "Look! I was right about Robz and Ichimaru, I must be right about yuma as well!" But the other side is a nice option as well if Ichimaru is town then you just put up the two other townies as your lynch options and if one of us is lynched today then you are guaranteed to win... so that is kinda a wash...

[yuma]

Robz doesn't have many interactions with the three players I am interested in: yuma, teproc, and ichimaru

and really I think this points to robz being scum partners with liopoil. Robz creates interactions with his scum partners. He does it amazingly well. See MCommunity where he did so extremely well. I think this points to him and liopoil as they did have scum read interactions (specifically Robz at liopoil) throughout the game up until this last day where robz "pretended" to buddy up to liopoil and have a town read on him...

[Teproc]

I mean, based on how they played day 4, it seems clear to me that the remaining town (from my PoV) is liopoil or yuma. Which means Ichimaru is scum by default. I was having doubts before but I think his play day 4 has been very scummy, which also helps.

That doesn't actually advance us much though, since if we lynch Ichimaru it's just us three staring at each other tomorrow. If xeiron agrees with this, I think our lynch today should be between yuma and liopoil, since we won't have an IC helping figure things out tomorrow. I don't know if xeiron will agree since it might not make sense from his PoV, but that'd be my preference, although I'll certainly vote Ichimaru if that's the way he wants to go.

Looking at final vote counts :

Day 1, Robz is off-wagon (on 2.7), yuma, liopoil and Ichimaru are on wagon. I am off (on Eevee)

Day 2, Robz and liopoil are on-wagon, Ichimaru and yuma are off(on me). I am off (not voting)

Day 3, Robz, Ichimaru and yuma are on-wagon, liopoil is off (on Robz). I am technically off although I was ready to hammer mail-mi once Lekkit came back.

Day 4, yuma, liopoil and myself are on-wagon, Ichimaru is off (not voting).

Also, the liopoil wagon from day 1 looks like this :

liopoil (5): Robz, Eevee, chairs, faust, Ichimaru.

I'll note that yuma was briefly on the wagon as well (after Eevee), but switched to 2.7 for misrepresenting a quote of his.

I still think this speaks in favor of liopoil. Not from the Robz aspect of things : Robz launching this wagon and backing off (he's the first of the five to unvote) is certainly consistent with a Robz/liopoil scum team. Where it gets interesting is that, in oder for yuma to be town, liopoil and Ichimaru have to both be scum. Ichimaru's vote here would be quite ambitious as a first day playing scum : as I said yesterday, I believe Robz would have told him that bussing on day 1 is a bad idea (unless Robz doesn't actually think that ?).

xeiron, since you're the only one I can actually trust, does that reasoning make sense to you ? Or do you believe Ichimaru would put his partner liopoil at L-2 on his first day of playing mafia ever ?
I guess an argument in favor of this is that Robz has said that it's good for scum to have pressure on them early.

[yuma]

That doesn't actually advance us much though, since if we lynch Ichimaru it's just us three staring at each other tomorrow. If xeiron agrees with this, I think our lynch today should be between yuma and liopoil, since we won't have an IC helping figure things out tomorrow. I don't know if xeiron will agree since it might not make sense from his PoV, but that'd be my preference, although I'll certainly vote Ichimaru if that's the way he wants to go.

This is a good point, except that from my point of view it would be deciding between you and Ichimaru today while we still have an IC as I am quite confident liopoil is mafia and am not completely sure about you and ichimaru...

So while this contradicts your post it does make me wonder if figuring out between you and ichimaru today with xeiron's help would be more beneficial...?

[liopoil]

I mean, based on how they played day 4, it seems clear to me that the remaining town (from my PoV) is liopoil or yuma. Which means Ichimaru is scum by default. I was having doubts before but I think his play day 4 has been very scummy, which also helps.

why is this clear from your POV?

Robz and I have been scum together twice, B2B and Toy story. I invite people to go look at those games. I think they'll find it's significantly different from this game.

[liopoil]

Looking at final vote counts :

Day 1, Robz is off-wagon (on 2.7), yuma, liopoil and Ichimaru are on wagon. I am off (on Eevee)

Robz very much supported the faust lynch.

[xeiron]

I think we should lynch Ichimaru next.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. I was asleep when you guys killed Robz.
Pretty busy with school right now, but just wanted to check in.

Hmm. Lio hammered. Interesting. I'm taking that as a bus.

Not entirely sure what to make of yuma right now.

PPE: 1

[liopoil]

I think we should lynch Ichimaru next.

I'm not sure if I agree or not. On one hand, I feel more confident about yuma being scum, on the other hand, Teproc sort of has a point in that it doesn't matter because we'll be in the same position tomorrow and we have an IC now.

[xeiron]

I think we should lynch Ichimaru next.

I'm not sure if I agree or not. On one hand, I feel more confident about yuma being scum, on the other hand, Teproc sort of has a point in that it doesn't matter because we'll be in the same position tomorrow and we have an IC now.

We have a IC now, but we have one more day of actions and interactions to base the decition on tomorrow.

As I see it,
Ichimaru is scum
Teproc is town
and then one among Yuma and Liopoil is scum. I am leaning Yuma as scum, but I am less sure about Liopoil's towniness than than I was at when I subbed in last day.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think we should lynch Ichimaru next.

I've said this before. I think it is irresponsible to lynch someone without even having an actual posted case on them.

I say this because I know that I am town--and even though we lynched scum yesterday. If you kill me, town will lose.
I don't know if my position on the Robz wagon is at all related to your read on me--but I slept in that morning, and liopoil had already hammered him by the time I woke up.

[Teproc]

xeiron, what do you think of Ichimaru's vote on liopoil day 1, putting him at L-2 ? As I said a few posts above, this is making me doubtful of a liopoil/Ichimaru scumteam (and thus doubtful that liopoil is scum at all).

@Ichi : I'm not putting much stock in your position off-wagon yesterday, no. It's just, you have been opportunistic with your votes on the first few days, and then you approached lylo in a way that didn't seem townie to me. Mostly waiting to see what people were saying and being non-committal, which is exactly what scum does in this case : they want to know which townie is the most likely to be lynched, and which scum they will have to bus. Even outside of that, yuma and liopoil have both done things to make me think they're town, you haven't.

[xeiron]

I think we should lynch Ichimaru next.

I've said this before. I think it is irresponsible to lynch someone without even having an actual posted case on them.

I say this because I know that I am town--and even though we lynched scum yesterday. If you kill me, town will lose.
I don't know if my position on the Robz wagon is at all related to your read on me--but I slept in that morning, and liopoil had already hammered him by the time I woke up.

You do have a point.

I wil try to write a proper case.
I will try to put together something on Yuma, Liopoil and Teproc as well.

That way I can give my thought about who to lynch tomorrow, as I will probably be killed during the night.

But it is sleeping tome for me now, so the cases would have to wait a day or two.

[Ichimaru Gin]

xeiron, what do you think of Ichimaru's vote on liopoil day 1, putting him at L-2 ? As I said a few posts above, this is making me doubtful of a liopoil/Ichimaru scumteam (and thus doubtful that liopoil is scum at all).

@Ichi : I'm not putting much stock in your position off-wagon yesterday, no. It's just, you have been opportunistic with your votes on the first few days, and then you approached lylo in a way that didn't seem townie to me. Mostly waiting to see what people were saying and being non-committal, which is exactly what scum does in this case : they want to know which townie is the most likely to be lynched, and which scum they will have to bus. Even outside of that, yuma and liopoil have both done things to make me think they're town, you haven't.

Ok. Much earlier in this game, I admit that I did some scummy things. But I was still figuring everything out then. I know that you find the so called "newbie excuse" scummy, but for D1 of my first game ever, I think it's stretching it to call out my opportunistic voting. Which is really just, I had no idea what I was doing at that point.

And "I haven't done anything to make you think I'm town". What about

Interesting post by Ichimaru. I do hedge a lot, that's who I am, I'm never sure of anything. I know it's ont good for the game, and I do try to appear more certain than I am (for example, I am certain that pretty much every argument that has been done in the history of mafia can be reduced to WIFOM, because you're never sure scum isn't thinking three steps ahead of you), but I'm apparently failing at that.

That post was very convincing even though it was wrong. Could he have done that as scum ? Maybe. But I don't think so. Unvote

I'm not exactly sure what to make of you at this point. I could see you as a scumpartner for Robz. But at the same time, I think it seems like you're really working as town and trying to be methodical about things.
Still, I take that blanketed statement on me as scummy.

[Teproc]

Yeah, I know I found you townie in that response. I caught some flak for that too, for some reason. I guess it's mostly day 3 and 4 stuff. I still think that response and case on me look townie, but the townie things yuma and liopoil have done far outweigh this.

Oh, and Robz's interactions with you also look very bad. I still need to reread, but he was very dismissive of case on you early day 2, saying it was too easy to be true, even accusing me of being ash's partner redirecting on an easy mislynch.

[liopoil]

yuma has done townie things?

[Teproc]

Well he got the game going back on track (in terms of activity) day 2, and he has been better at seeming townie in the end of day 3. Although his fixating on your dice roll thing is weird, since that made sense from my perspective. I don't know, I'm just second guessing myself all over right now, having nightmares of a Robz/yuma/liopoil scumteam. Eagerly waiting for xeiron's reread, but right now I'm still leaning town on you. I wanted to reread the thread tonight, but there's no rush and I'm tired, so I'll do it tomorrow hopefully.

[xeiron]

xeiron, what do you think of Ichimaru's vote on liopoil day 1, putting him at L-2 ? As I said a few posts above, this is making me doubtful of a liopoil/Ichimaru scumteam (and thus doubtful that liopoil is scum at all).

@Ichi : I'm not putting much stock in your position off-wagon yesterday, no. It's just, you have been opportunistic with your votes on the first few days, and then you approached lylo in a way that didn't seem townie to me. Mostly waiting to see what people were saying and being non-committal, which is exactly what scum does in this case : they want to know which townie is the most likely to be lynched, and which scum they will have to bus. Even outside of that, yuma and liopoil have both done things to make me think they're town, you haven't.

I was not aware of that vote. Thanks for metioning it.

[liopoil]

Well he got the game going back on track (in terms of activity) day 2, and he has been better at seeming townie in the end of day 3.

I don't know what you mean by the D3 thing, and whatever he did to get the game back going D2 is really not something that scum wouldn't do.

[yuma]

Is anyone interested in anything that I have to say?

[yuma]

Is anyone interested in anything that I have to say?

I guess I'll take that as a no.

vote: liopoil

mcmc let me know via PM when the next day begins if I am still alive will you? (least fun game I have ever played. Black-balling me out of the conversation, even if you think I am scum, just isn't right guys. It is rude and completely against the entire point of the game. Frankly town deserves to lose not just for reading me wrong but honestly for being rather arrogantly rude about it).

[Teproc]

What ?

I didn't respond because it seems like a pointless question to me. If you're town you should defend yourself anyway. I don't see any indication that people have given up on you being town. If you read my latest posts, I am having doubts about you being scum, but I guess you'd rather be a victim ?

If you're town, whatever, you're frustrated and I get that, even if it also annoying to me. If you're scum, this kind of AtE is just annoying.

How is anyone "black-bailing" you out of the game, whatever that means ?

[liopoil]

That's kind of ridiculous, nobody posted anything at all since you said that, so none of us were part of the converstation. Even I would at least read anything you post, and would consider if it suggested something that I don't know to be false. (really anything except an accusation against me). I'm sure other players would consider whatever you say too. I apologize if this isn't the case, but this feels faked to me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hmm. I find Yuma's comment somewhat strange. At least to me, it is not terribly apparent that he is being ignored. But at the same time, I haven't been following recent things too closely.

I guess the honest question I have to ask is, why would he do this as scum?

[Teproc]

Ichimaru reread.

Hmm, this is an interesting popsquiz from early day 1 :

Would lynch: Voltaire, Liopoil, Yuma
Won't lynch: mail-mi, Teproc, and probably Ashersky--they all read pretty town to me
Everyone else, I'm more unsure about.
I'm still learning a lot about how to read what people do as town or scum --so just going off of general impressions here.

If he is scum, one of his scumbuddies is in his "would lynch" category. Makes sense if Robz told him that scum needed to get suspicion on early one. Makes even more sense if yuma is his scumbuddy (since he didn't actually vote for yuma).

Actually, Ichimaru has this whole ting where not being suspected is scummy. This makes a lot of sense if Robz was his scumpartner and talked about it in the QT. He even makes reference to it when talking about his day 1 pass, early day 2 :

I'm fine with your vote on me. I got a D1 pass, and as such, haven't received my share of suspicion. I'm still learning how to read people's behavior as town or scum. I'll have a reads list up soon.

Reads post from day 2. yuma is not in it, liopoil is barely in it.

And here's what I feel about the current lynch options.

Ashersky: To be honest, I'm uncertain on this one. I think his overconfidence--even before Faust did anything really incriminating, does seem scummy. Yet, the case is still unconvincing to me. The sheer speed of the original wagon still makes me suspicious.

Teproc: He actually reads pretty scummy to me. Reasons at the end of this post.

Lekkit: Has really been lurking about as much as others, yet hasn't received the same suspicion for it. Interesting.

Liopoil/Chairs: Lurker lynches. Not the best, but still viable options pending how uneventful the rest of this day is. I agree that chairs should claim

2.7: I've honestly forgotten the details of this case.

Voltaire: Ash's post helped refresh my memory and better understand everything that has transpired. Totally ok with this one.

I am going to vote: Teproc. And no, this is not OMGUS. He hasn't really received any suspicion, yet I don't see what he has done to deserve this. Has he received a single vote the entire game? He brought some early accusations against Ash, but for the most part, I just think he's done a really good job of doing some towny-appearing things, while remaining mostly uninvolved.

Then there's his position on ash, from having a strong town reads on him at the end of day 1, to wanting to reexamine him after faust's flip, to this :

I'm still not sold on a chairs or Ashersky lynch as of now, (in particular I believe that chairs has been legitimately busy).

I am currently suspicious of those involved in the Ash lynch--which IMO ramped up way to quickly. I have a town read on Liopoil for the above quote.

to this :

I am willing to vote Ash if we haven't really come to a conclusion and we're really close to the deadline.

Who is around to hammer Ash?  I really don't see us lynching anyone else today?

I'm willing to hammer. But we still have what, an hour and a half left?

I understand being ready to hammer someone you're null on when close to deadline, but Ichi had enough of a town read on ash to find the wagon on him suspicious. To be fair, this is not as scummy as I remembered it to be.

Players I think are scum, or leaning scum: Teproc, Lekkit, Voltaire,
Player's I'm unsure about/mild town-read: Robz, Mail-Mi, Yuma, Liopoil, 2.7

This is consistent with the idea that scum would want to put pressure on each other early, but not later. This is just before Lekkit asked everyone their opinion on 2.7 and Voltaire.

From day 3 and on, there are constant references to the fact that yuma has received very little suspicion (something I pointed out because he was suspecting me for that reason) and the idea that someone needed to make a case on him. To which I wonder : why didn't Ichimaru go to the trouble of making that case himself ? Possibly he was preparing to bus yuma once someone did make that case.

Also, lio and Ichi are at each other's throat from day 3 and on. In a way that does not smell like bussing to me, especially since Ichimaru has had liopoil in his scum reads prety consistently since day 1. I guess he could have just decided to think his scumbuddie was scum all game long, but... that doesn't even seem like a very good strategy to me, let alone a likely one. I'm going back o yuma being scum because of this.

I'll reread liopoil next (not right now though, maybe later).

[liopoil]

So, I think Vote: Yuma. Ichimaru Gin and Teproc posted within 2 minutes of each other, I wasn't quickhammered. Now, this doesn't totally confirm him as scum, but add that on top of I already was sure enough that he was scum...

The only reservation I might have is that perhaps it is better to lynch yuma tomorrow, but I don't think so actually.

So now people can do their rereads and stuff that they want to do, then people should vote for Yuma. I'll vote for ichimaru gin if both Xeiron and Teproc prefer that lynch.

[Teproc]

liopoil reread

ash, are you completely serious about being 100% on faust? Is it not an exaggeration at all?

because if he is serious, that means that if ashersky is town, faust is scum. And if faust is town, it means ashersky is scum. If someone is actually 100% sure somebody else is scum, that means we should lynch one of those two players. It's like a cop claim w/guilty result or some equivalent.

So I am assuming that ashersky is not serious.

This kind of reasoning looks like it could be setup for a double mislynch, but the disclaimer at the end makes it look like it could just be town wondering out loud. Worth noting though.

In the same post, his answer to the % thing :

For me (note: 27% is null):

liopoil: 0%
voltaire: 16%
ashersky: 18.5%
chairs: 21%
faust: 24%
yuma: 25.5%
robz888: 26%
lekkit, ichimaru, mail-mi: 28%
Teproc: 30%
e: 31%
eevee: 34%

Ichi is slight town, yuma and Robz are slight scum. Doesn't tell us much.

ugh, not even sure I like an eevee lynch now... because knowing that I'm town, he could just be in the same boat as me. I'm having trouble seeing how we could lynch scum today. random lynch minus chairs? Not a good idea, but honestly, it's not much worse than what we're doing now.

This is liopoil showing he likes randomizing lynches, FWIW.

Not quoting because it's over several posts, but there is his collaboration with Robz's plan to catch faust lying. Given that Robz was scum and faust was town, this doesn't look good at all, could be scum trying to mislynch a PR.

He then really really wants to lynch faust (still before faust retracts his claim). I don't like this, but this is the reasoning that led me to believe Robz was town so I don't know.

And robz I think also reads ashersky well, especially when ash is town.

This is during the Great Tunneling of Robz day 2. Robz's scumbuddy might want to give credibility to Robz here, but it backfires once ash flips town. Still, that's a little scummy considering the flips.

There's a whole dancing around with L-1 on ash where liopoil unvotes and refuses to vote for ash as long as he is self-voting. Seems townie to me.

Ok more concise post:

1. liopoil was the largest wagon at the time that faust claimed and the thread turned into chaos
2. after that point he received very few votes compared to others who were in that category of possibly being lynched (specifically sure 2.7, eevee and mail-mi)
3. the main points against liopoil from day1 are lurking and responding passively to suspicion (I maintain that liopoil responds more aggressively as scum) and that it is compelling that his lynch was not brought up as a possibility against him after faust claimed
4. points I would add are his case against 2.7 today (I tend to find arguments that so and so talked about why the NK died to be from scum, but this isn't always true. I did it as town in GoT against Voltaire when we were both town for example), general lurky behavior today (and I don't just mean during his VLA, rather that he has posted but really only participated in a dialogue with ashersky and hasn't done much else)

is number 1 supposed to be a reason to suspect me? I mean, it's not like faust claimed to protect me... faust was town! or is it 'There was support for the lio mislynch before, why can't we mislynch him now?' Being almost-lynched isn't suspicious, especially because of faust's claim.

#2: ...because my scumbuddies did all that voting? I would think my hypothetical scumbuddies would vote for faust, not e or mail-mi or eevee after faust's claim. And I don't remember those wagons growing much, I remember primarily everyone moving to faust, some from my wagon, some from others.

#3: a couple things here..... first off, would you prefer I always react aggresively to cases on me as town? because I don't think doing that is effective, except that maybe it would convince yuma because it would be fufilling my meta. But it isn't a meta I really want to continue... because people don't respond positively to aggression. I think I am more likely to avoid being mislynched via a more a reserved response. In previous games as town the cases on me have been really frustrating and have the frustration leaks out. And in previous games as scum I've had more of a motive to avoid the lynch, and also wasn't frustrated because the case was correct. This game, the points against me haven't been just blatantly false like I think they have been before, and so I am not particularly frustrated. If I were to react as I have in prior town games this game, then it would be fake, and being town, I am not going to fake emotions.

#4: well I haven't found that at all, and you said yourself that it isn't always accurate. Seems like this is a point you just added on because why not. Prior to my V/LA I do not think that I was particularly lurky on D2.

This is a response to yuma's weird case on liopoil day 2, the one where liopoil is scum because his wagon disappeared after faust claimed. This case made no sense to me at the time, and liopoil's response seemed good to me. Now if the scumteam is Robz/yuma/liopoil, this is a great way to turn the liopoil wagon into town cred for liopoil, as well as giving something for both yuma and liopoil to talk about and appear active. I still do read liopoil's response as townie, but there is a scum narrative there.

I agree with the case on ashersky, and I don't think I'm voting for him. I should be. Vote: Ashersky. anyway, the bit that makes me suspicious of robz is that he says it could be town!ash. town!robz is always fairly sure that this is town ash when he does the town ash thing. I can pull quotes from multiple games if necessary. Should ash flip town, I think it really makes robz suspicious.

liopoil did indeed go after Robz consistently after ash's flip. There's no real reason for scum!liopoil to set up a bus at this point, bussing only became a necessity after the Lekkit claim.

my reads have become a fair bit weaker now that ash flipped town... feels like I haven't got anything right lately. What I've got is:

lean scum: robz, teproc
null-maybe-scummy?: yuma, 2.7
null-maybe-townie?: lekkit, ichimaru gin, mail-mi
Town: liopoil, voltaire

Reads before the Lekkit claim. Might be having Robz in there but actually not intending to vote for him. That being said, I was a very possible mislynch after the claim, and liopoil didn't try that, straight bussing (if he's scum) instead. Even when mail-mi was an alternate lynch. Which left Robz to hammer in a super scummy way. Yeah, I think this speaks against Robz/liopoil being partners.

Then we have the whole flavour name mixup. Trying to make 2.7 into somewhat of an IC after Lekkit made it clear that he was going to claim Hider (I'm assuming scum would have had the reasoning yuma talked about, I certainly would have done the research, had I been scum) does not seem like what scum would do. I think scum would'nt reject the Lekkit claim, but wouldn't wholeheartedly embrace it either. This is what liopoil posts when Lekkit claims :

fabulous, I believe it. let's not lynch any of those three.

This isn't conclusive or anything, but this is the second post after Lekkit's claim, and I do believe that scum would wait to see if some townies could be inclined to be doubtful about the claim.

At this point he is pretty convinced that Robz is scum. He was his top scum read along with me before the claim, and PoE leads him to believe I'm town. So this seems consistent with town!liopoil. Pretty null though because at this point scum!liopoil just wants to bus anyway. Which is why I don't think scum!liopoil would even put himself in that position. Also, he said he was fine with lynching mail-mi as well but never did, which is actually townie here, since he would probbaly have had the opposite attitude as scum (saying he's ok with lynching his scumpartner, but would rather vote mail-mi).

I stopped there, but day 4 he just sheeped my brain (as in, he was saying what I was thinking before I posted it). Could be masterful scum play, but Occam's Razor tells me it's town.

So yeah, there are arguments here and there, but I don't think a Robz/liopoil pairing is as strong as yuma says it is. Still think liopoil is town. Still think yuma is scum. Will reread yuma at some point, but realistically, I'm just waiting for xeiron to do his reread to be ready to vote now.

[Teproc]

Oh and yuma, I get your frustration if you're scum. It has to be infuriating to just wait for us to inevitably lynch you and probably win the game after that (assuming I'm right about liopoil/Ichimaru). It's just, you have to understand why we don't want to rush this, right ?

[liopoil]

Actually in that post ichi is slight scum, yuma and robz are slight scum. yeah, I didn't catch all the scum early D1 unfortunately.

And yes, in general I am more inclined towards random lynches than other people are. While I believe they are still a bad idea, I am not convinced that our reads are much better than random.

[xeiron]

Ichimaru Gin

Right from the start of D1 he votes back on Ashersky after Ashersky votes for him.

vote: Ashersky

I believe Ichimaru is more inclided do this as scum. As town, the important thing is to lynch scum, but as scum, lynching anyone is fine.

Well if either/both 2.7 or Voltaire are town--I can see how the claim would look very legitimate from their point of view.
I think I believe Lekkit, as I felt somewhat townie on both of them anyway. Particularly now that the flavor thing has been resolved.
However, I can also see scum playing the angle of making a claim that appears to make things a lot easier for town--especially with how up in the air everything has been. This also has the benefit of scum outing themselves from the lynch pool.
It could be a Lekkit + 2.7/Voltaire scumteam, but I'm not really thinking so right now.

So assuming Lekkit's claim is true, my lynch pool is now.

Robz

mail-mi

Yuma

Liopoil

Teproc

I felt Lekkit was pretty scummy before his claim though, so not completely sold. If it is true though, it effectively cuts the lynch pool down to 6 total, 5 for each player. That's like a 33% decrease in the size of the lynch pool. So if there are 3 scum, our odds are now about 50% of hitting them. So this effectively increases our odds of lynching scum by 17%.

Here he analyzes the remaining lynch pool after Lekkit claims hider.
He concludes with 'about 50% chance of hitting scum'. This is correct from a neural view. From a subjective town perspective, he really have 60% chance (as he also explains). I do believe taking the neutral view is a scummy thing to do.

...

So in order of scummiest first I guess I'd go.

Teproc/Robz

Liopoil

Yuma

Yuma at the bottom I guess, because I haven't seen a real case against him yet.

I think everyone should make a short post with their top scum-read. And we'll see where we stand.

I'll start.

Liopoil

For a period during day 3 he have robz as his top scumread, but when it comes to voting, he goes elsewhere. Liopoil sums it up quite nice with this post:

Robz, you do realize the only way you can be quickhammered is if we are both town? it takes 4 to lynch. there are 3 scum. They need a townie to vote for a townie to be able to quickhammer.

Yeah. I'm wondering if there's even a small chance of lynching anyone but Robz today.
Liopoil has become a lot more scummy to me. So he's actually moved up to #2 with Teproc at #3 as my top scumreads.

At any rate, it will be good to hear from everyone about the Robz lynch, so when he (most hopefully) flips scum. We'll have more to analyze. And if he flips town, well it won't really matter then.

I am willing to vote for Teproc and Liopoil--but I don't see any interest there right now.
The most important thing is--we need to really, really, make sure that Robz is scum! We can't afford another mislynch. Liopoil seems very confident about this, but how can he be that sure? I think he's bussing, or scum is overjoyed that it looks almost certain that we're going to lynch town!Robz today.

nevermind, Ichimaru is scummier than teproc, for sure. Robz is still his #1 scumread it seems, if teproc and I are 2 and 3, yet he is clearly trying to lynch teproc or I.

I'm calling it now then, scumteam is Ichimaru Gin, yuma, and robz.

This is the things that jumped out on me under the reread.
In addition comes the total impression. And the conclution is that Ichimaru have some scummy posts, and many posts that are not especially scummy, but none that i find explicitly towny.
Oh, and then we have his voting history. Ichimaru has voted for almost everyone, except eevee, chairs (both nightkilled early), lekkit/me, and Robz and Yuma. He is on most major wagons as well, conveniently finding people scummy when others also find them scummy. He expresses scumreads on Robz and yuma too. Hwy is it always more convenient to join other wagons?

[xeiron]

conclusion: Ichimaru Gin and yuma is scum
vote: Ichimaru Gin

[Teproc]

Ichimaru first then ? I'm fine with that.

Oh, and he did the analysis from a neutral point of view again on day 4, when he said he was looking at 3/5 instead of 3/4. Mistakes like these can be made by everyone of course, but scum is much more likely to do so, twice even.

[Teproc]

vote: Ichimaru

[xeiron]

I know I promised other rereads as well, but I have problems finding the time for writing more long posts. I will probably drop the rest, and go with my impression instead.

[Teproc]

I mean I'm fairly certain liopoil and I will lynch yuma tomorrow, for better or worse. I'll probably reread yuma beforehand because he's the only one I haven't, but Ichimaru is the one I'm less sure about of the two, so if he does flip scum, I'll be extremely unlikely to change my mind.

[xeiron]

So, I think Vote: Yuma. Ichimaru Gin and Teproc posted within 2 minutes of each other, I wasn't quickhammered. Now, this doesn't totally confirm him as scum, but add that on top of I already was sure enough that he was scum...

The only reservation I might have is that perhaps it is better to lynch yuma tomorrow, but I don't think so actually.

So now people can do their rereads and stuff that they want to do, then people should vote for Yuma. I'll vote for ichimaru gin if both Xeiron and Teproc prefer that lynch.

This makes a Teproc- ichimaru team unlikely.

xeiron, what do you think of Ichimaru's vote on liopoil day 1, putting him at L-2 ? As I said a few posts above, this is making me doubtful of a liopoil/Ichimaru scumteam (and thus doubtful that liopoil is scum at all).

This makes Liopoil - Ichimaru unlikely.

We are left with Ichimaru - Yuma.

[Teproc]

Well, that and liopoil/yuma.

That's my fear at this point. But oh well.

[Teproc]

So, liopoil (or even yuma) will undoubtedly hammer soon.

Just in case : xeiron, do not hide. I'm sure you know this, but it doesn't hurt to say it. You're very likely to be scum's target so it might be tempting to hide behind someone in the hope to be 3v1 tomorrow, but really it's too risky. A desperate yuma could get fancy and try to kill whoever you're hiding behind, not to mention that you might be wrong on who's town (although we've lost already at this point, since I agree with you that the other remaining townie is liopoil).

[Ichimaru Gin]

I mean I'm fairly certain liopoil and I will lynch yuma tomorrow, for better or worse. I'll probably reread yuma beforehand because he's the only one I haven't, but Ichimaru is the one I'm less sure about of the two, so if he does flip scum, I'll be extremely unlikely to change my mind.

When I flip town, changing your mind won't matter.

[liopoil]

Teproc, are you town? if so, I'll hammer.

(note: question is mostly rhetorical, I'm just gonna run through any way you could be scum one more time.)

[Teproc]

Yes, I'm town.

@Ichimaru : Fair enough

[Ichimaru Gin]

If you're deadset on lynching me, I don't think there's anything I can do to avert it at this point.

Out of Teproc's two major lynch-candidates, he said that I'm the one he is less sure about. So why is he going to take the risk of killing me over yuma?
Because he knows I'm town.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And liopoil has sheeped me on the whole "you should only want to lynch your top scumread".
Why doesn't he find Teproc scummy for doing this?

[Teproc]

Because xeiron wants to lynch you. The thing is, if we lynch yuma today, I'll still have to make the choice between you and liopoil tomorrow. And I'll choose to lynch you, so might as well do it now.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I find the whole "are you town?"
Oh "yes I am" to be decidedly scummy.
Really, everyone says their town--all the time, almost whenever they can.

How does this accomplish/confirm anything?

[Teproc]

This is the same thing that made liopoil lynch Robz yesterday (assuming liopoil is town). He was less sure about Robz than about yuma or you, but he did it because he knew, like me, that he would have to make that choice between Robz and me on day 6 anyway.

[liopoil]

Okay, Vote: Ichimaru Gin

(note2: not blindly trusting you here, but a Teproc-Yuma team seems unlikely to me and also if that was the case yuma could quickhammer anyway. Also, you're town.)

The above is not a quickhammer, by the way.

Aaaaaand yuma escapes again. We'll get him tomorrow folks.

PPE:

And liopoil has sheeped me on the whole "you should only want to lynch your top scumread".
Why doesn't he find Teproc scummy for doing this?

lol, I can pull a million quotes from D4 of you not caring who we lynch and me telling you that you should only want to lynch your top scumread.

[Ichimaru Gin]

PPE:

And liopoil has sheeped me on the whole "you should only want to lynch your top scumread".
Why doesn't he find Teproc scummy for doing this?

lol, I can pull a million quotes from D4 of you not caring who we lynch and me telling you that you should only want to lynch your top scumread.

I misused the word there.
Does sheeping actually refer to a case without evidence? I thought it meant something different.
Oh well. Nice job on losing the game.

[liopoil]

Oh well. Nice job on losing the game.

If so, good job Teproc! but I doubt it.

[Teproc]

Well, I hope we didn't lose. liopoil certainly didn't. I think we're good. We have no business winning this game, scum played much better than town, but I do think we will.

[Ichimaru Gin]

On a side note--one that doesn't really matter now.

I'd like to say that I really enjoyed this as my first game of Mafia. After watching games for a while, some of you guys are almost kinda like celebrities in a way. (at least here on the site). So it was really fun to actually interact with you all.

[Teproc]

Hey, it was nice playing with you as well Ichimaru. I do hope you sign up for another game at some point ! Might I suggest  Super Mario Mafia ? It should be the next one to start once this is over, and it's almost full !

Also, it looks pretty cool.

[liopoil]

some of you guys are almost kinda like celebrities in a way. (at least here on the site).

hey, your scumbuddy robz is a real celebrity! well, sort of. A lot closer to a celebrity than the rest of us.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hey, it was nice playing with you as well Ichimaru. I do hope you sign up for another game at some point ! Might I suggest  Super Mario Mafia ? It should be the next one to start once this is over, and it's almost full !

Also, it looks pretty cool.

For sure. I'm taking a pretty heavy load right now, and week 2 of the semester things are already ramping up.

But I'll definitely be back during break.

And a shoutout to MCMC for being such a great mod. Although I don't have much to compare it to, I thought this setup and overall game was a ton of fun!

[liopoil]

Does sheeping actually refer to a case without evidence? I thought it meant something different.

to sheep is to follow blindly. In the context of mafia, it means to just say "I agree with ___!" without adding anything new.

[Teproc]

So, liopoil, did you win ? As in, scum win ?

Ichimaru, are you truly town ? Can't you guys just be nice and tell me if you're scum ? I should go sleep but I want to see this flip...

[liopoil]

So, liopoil, did you win ? As in, scum win ?

Nope, I didn't, like I said, it wasn't a quickhammer. If I were scum and ichi town I would have just posted "Vote: Ichimaru" and nothing else to secure the win.

did you scum win?

[Teproc]

Nope. I wish I were that good !

Ok, ok. I think we're good. Good night everyone. Hopefully I'll manage to sleep (originaly typed flip... yeah, bye).

[xeiron]

So, liopoil, did you win ? As in, scum win ?

Ichimaru, are you truly town ? Can't you guys just be nice and tell me if you're scum ? I should go sleep but I want to see this flip...

Pretty sure we got it right.
(If not, Ichimaru could have waited until the flip and the end of the game with his thanking. But he knows there is one more day, so he do it now.)

That said, It was nice to play with you too, Ichimaru. I hope to see you in another game soon.
Sorry for not listening more to what you said, but I really thought, and still thinks, that you are scum.

[liopoil]

shoot, what if xeiron is scum? I forgot why that isn't possible.

[liopoil]

because then there would be a SK, right. Nevermind.

[Archetype]

Thread Locked.

I'll let Mcmcsalot do the flip.

[EFHW]

Ichimaru Gin has been lynched.  He was Cao Pi, a Mafia Goon.

[EFHW]

Day will start tonight, Friday, January 31st at 9 pm.

[EFHW]

Overnight, Teproc was killed.  He was Han Dang, a Vanilla Townie.

VOTE COUNT 6.0

not voting: (3) Liopoil, yuma, xeiron

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

THREAD UNLOCKED

[liopoil]

O.o good to confirm I was right about Teproc... let's make sure xeiron isn't scum. Massclaim time, Yuma first, then me, then xeiron can confirm being a hider and stuff.

[liopoil]

The only reason I'm not rushing to lynch yuma is that the last time I did that as town in a 3-player lylo... it didn't work out.

[xeiron]

We can massclaim, sure.

[liopoil]

Are you okay with making yuma go first?

[liopoil]

Request a prod on Yuma

[yuma]

Bibbity Bobbity Boo

[EFHW]

Request a prod on Yuma

He has been prodded.

[EFHW]

Doesn't quite sound like himself, though ...

[xeiron]

I take that as a sign that Yuma is not interested in claiming.
Let's skip it then. The obvious result would have been that the two of you had claimed vanilla townies. To claim something else is to claim mafia, as there cannot be more PRs (unless you think I am lying about being  one.)

Vote: Yuma

[yuma]

Apparently a prod means I am supposed to post something of content... didn't see that in the rules or regulations.

Well I am still not following this game at all so really have no idea what is going on (except that I am apparently still alive), but I can imagine that you guys are about to lynch me and lose (well one of you will win! hint is liopoil). But hey, I tried earlier and you guys showed you didn't give a rat's ass about what I said, so... whatever.... But really this game just stopped being fun, so why do something that isn't fun?

But I should give town at least a chance. so vote: liopoil.

[liopoil]

Yuma, claim now or I hammer you. I probably hammer you after you claim anyway though.

[liopoil]

or xeiron, just post without hammering me and I'll hammer yuma.

[liopoil]

Both ichimaru gin and robz flipped goon. This means there 3 Ts or 4 Ts. It's impossible for it to be 3 Ts because there would have to be two town PRs, and if both yuma and xeiron were town PRs there wouldn't be any scum. So there is one scum, one town PR, and one VT. I'm the VT. So, for yuma to be town, he would have to be a town PR and xeiron scum. This is why I wanted Yuma to claim. But if yuma is town PR a lot of other things are true:

- he knows xeiron is scum because if he was also a town PR there would be two scum. So he wouldn't be voting for me
- xeiron can quickhammer for the win anyway
- oh, and it's totally implausible for him to be a town PR in general

plus he's super scummy, and xeiron isn't.

[liopoil]

okay. xeiron wins. But I think I do too.

vote: Yuma

flipflipflipflipflip

[mcmcsalot]

vote count 6.1

Yuma (2): xeiron, liopoil
liopoil (2): Yuma

With 3 alive it took two to lynch.

Yuma has been lynched, he was zhang Liao, mafia Jack of all Trades

Town wins!

[Voltaire]

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Great job everyone!

[liopoil]

awesome!

[mcmcsalot]

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/23PYEtHWyViwa speccy!

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/uhBX6rAi9SPC mod qt!(fixed)

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/pRNCiBqUtn6M mafia qt!

Thanks everyone for playing and putting up with all of my mistakes, special thanks to EFHW and archetype for helping out with the co-modding. I had a lot of fun and hope everyone did to, truly sorry if some people had a poor experience. I think I'll leave modding to the more experienced players and focus on playing from now on.

MVP goes to Liopoil for being the last potential town mislynch when all three scum were left alive and making sure not to get lynched. I have decided to not give the MVP to lekkit as he could not complete the game(understandably so)

[liopoil]

on D4:

I'm calling it now then, scumteam is Ichimaru Gin, yuma, and robz.

I think the scumteam is Robz and yuma + a third, probably Ichimaru.

first time two townies both call the correct scumteam before any scum die?

[Voltaire]

Still so frustrated that I said

So this puts the scum in mail-mi/Robz/yuma/Ichi. That seems reasonable.

and then lynched mail-mi. 

[liopoil]

link to mod QT doesn't work.

Interesting that the speccy was just as sure it was robz/yuma/ichi as Teproc and I were. And they didn't even know that one of Teproc/lio was town like teproc/lio did. Well xeiron nailed it too from the same perspective, so there's that.

Didn't realize how controversial the xeiron sub was, I thought it was fine. I mean, nobody knew what his reads would be before he subbed in, and nobody knew lekkit's reads either.

[Archetype]

Awesome job liopoil! Also, special shout out to Ichimaru for excellent scum play for his first game!

[liopoil]

Awesome job liopoil! Also, special shout out to Ichimaru for excellent scum play for his first game!

Also, Teproc! Even with lekkit's hiding, we still needed to pick the two townies out of 5 people. There were 10 different combinations that could be. Teproc and I had to trust each other, and we did.

[Teproc]

Well done, people !

Yeah, once we had our back and forth day 4, the game was lost for scum basically.

Reading the scum QT now. I see now why Ichimaru was insistent about unsuspected people being scummy : yuma and Robz apparently think that as well. I don't really see why that would be the case, but ok.

[Robz888]

I agree that liopoil deserves MVP... I was prepared to argue for it in case someone argued otherwise. I think even if Lekkit weren't disqualified, liopoil's play was actually more MVP-worthy.

[Teproc]

yuma, if shraeye had replaced manda in Chocolate Factory town would have won, but it wouldn't have been unfair at all, assuming manda had outed or been prodded 3 times. Replacing with someone not in the speccy seems like the best option to me, as there is no particular reason for their reads to be good. It gets dicey if your only options are from the speccy, but in both cases those would have been good solutions I think.

I feel like you guys feel iffy about the xeiron replacement because you feel like you lost despite playing well. Which is true, but that's not the fault of the replacement, it's because of Lekkit's Hider play and not much else. It sucks, but there's not much to be done about it. I don't think the 2.7/ashersky mod error mattered at all, I'm still surprised Voltaire was giving liopoil town cred for that. It would have been caught at some point by someone, I don't see any reason for scum!liopoil not to do it.

Oh, and I have no idea why you think liopoil's day 3 was scummy. I found it incredibly townie...

[Robz888]

yuma, if shraeye had replaced manda in Chocolate Factory town would have won, but it wouldn't have been unfair at all, assuming manda had outed or been prodded 3 times. Replacing with someone not in the speccy seems like the best option to me, as there is no particular reason for their reads to be good. It gets dicey if your only options are from the speccy, but in both cases those would have been good solutions I think.

I feel like you guys feel iffy about the xeiron replacement because you feel like you lost despite playing well. Which is true, but that's not the fault of the replacement, it's because of Lekkit's Hider play and not much else. It sucks, but there's not much to be done about it. I don't think the 2.7/ashersky mod error mattered at all, I'm still surprised Voltaire was giving liopoil town cred for that. It would have been caught at some point by someone, I don't see any reason for scum!liopoil not to do it.

Oh, and I have no idea why you think liopoil's day 3 was scummy. I found it incredibly townie...

I think it would have been incredibly unfair to scum to replace manda.

We are iffy about the xeiron replacement because it decreased our odds of winning, and it seems wrong to me that a town-created issue should be able to put scum in a worse position.

I mean, you have to understand this at least on an intuitive level. We played 3 game days with Lekkit, not with xeiron. Then we come to the end of a fourth day and suddenly we are no longer playing with Lekkit, but we are playing with xeiron, someone who comes in with an unshakable scum read on me. Yes, I was obviously scum to him and everyone in the spec thread, do you want me to just give up? I wa splaying my hardest to "muddy the waters," to confuse and disorient the townies playing the game. Swapping someone else in at the last minute nullified this entire strategy.

I mean I realize I'm coming off bitter here. I'm not meaning to be bitter, I think town played a terrible game, had the benefit of an extremely fortuitous night action, and then played amazing. I'm blown away by the fact that no one, not once, even considered that Lekkit's claim could have been a lie, which was completely the right thing to do, as it turned out, and was just a sort of very good, town reading the situation.

But town still mislynched at that point, and we only needed one more to win. I think odds were always against us getting it at that point, as we admitted in our scum QT. I think the odds declined even further because of the substitution (I mean, they declined to about 1% because it turned out xeiron's reads were disastrous for scum, but I believe any substitution at that point was going to work against scum by voiding my strategy).

I will say again, I don't think this is a case of the mod having done "the wrong thing." The game was modded perfectly fine. It's at least semi-consistent with what has happened previously--we've had I believe one equally late-game substitution, in Chocolate Factory, and a Day 3 substitution in Pirates 2. I've never before considered the effect substitutions have on the opposing faction's strategy, because I have never been in a position where the disadvantage was immediately obvious to me.

[Teproc]

No one considered the Lekkit claim to be a lie ? That's not true. I did at least, and concluded it was an unlikely fake claim.  Also helped that I (and many others I think) already had a town read on Lekkit at that point.

I'm not sure why a replacement voids your strategy, since... a replacement still reads the thread ? The speccy had you figured out yes, but xeiron was not in the speccy. I would agree with you if someone from the speccy had replaced.

I guess you mean you were playing to Lekkit's meta/activity/reads this game, and replacing him changed that. Ok. But town plays to other people's meta/reads as well. Like, if liopoil had been replaced, I could say the same thing you did.

Which means I agree, I guess ? But I don't think there was any other realistic option. So yeah, we agree actually, cool.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Awesome job liopoil! Also, special shout out to Ichimaru for excellent scum play for his first game!

Thanks . Near the end though especially, I slipped more--part of that was due to school and I couldn't keep things up as well.
But overall, I really enjoyed this game. It was a ton of fun being scum in my first game, but I think I'm eager to see how I'll play as town too.

[mail-mi]

oh yay i won.

[faust]

oh yay i won.

[xeiron]

I agree with MVP to Liopoil. He did a great job at the start of day 4 to convince me you was town.
Creds to Teproc as well. He also did a good job in conveying his towniness.

Awesome job liopoil! Also, special shout out to Ichimaru for excellent scum play for his first game!

Thanks . Near the end though especially, I slipped more--part of that was due to school and I couldn't keep things up as well.
But overall, I really enjoyed this game. It was a ton of fun being scum in my first game, but I think I'm eager to see how I'll play as town too.

I do not think Ichimaru slipped that much. It was not easy to see that he was scum, and I caught him more by PoE that by slips.
But never voting for your scummates I think was a mistake, and strong evidence against Yuma after Ichimaru was caucht.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I agree with MVP to Liopoil. He did a great job at the start of day 4 to convince me you was town.
Creds to Teproc as well. He also did a good job in conveying his towniness.

Awesome job liopoil! Also, special shout out to Ichimaru for excellent scum play for his first game!

Thanks . Near the end though especially, I slipped more--part of that was due to school and I couldn't keep things up as well.
But overall, I really enjoyed this game. It was a ton of fun being scum in my first game, but I think I'm eager to see how I'll play as town too.

I do not think Ichimaru slipped that much. It was not easy to see that he was scum, and I caught him more by PoE that by slips.
But never voting for your scummates I think was a mistake, and strong evidence against Yuma after Ichimaru was caucht.

Oh. Well that's good to hear then. There's probably a tendency for me to think that just because I knew that I really was scum.

Yeah, people had guessed the scumteam a couple of times. And then after being right on the first two members--it was definitely heading in that direction.

I mentioned voting or one/both of them at different times, but probably should have followed through with that. Something to keep in mind for next time