Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Robz888]

No newbie pas for manda. Manda is not a newbie. She played Mafia VII.

[manda2014]

No newbie pas for manda. Manda is not a newbie. She played Mafia VII.

Which was, admittedly, a newbie game

But honestly, I've followed enough of Dsell's games that I'm really not new to the game play at all. Just WAY, WAY behind on knowing anything about metas and not interested in/able to go back and learn.

[Robz888]

Has Morgrim said anything? Has Jorbles?

[ashersky]

Manda, in the post I quoted, as well as in your most recent substantial one, you commit what I see as a pretty standard scumtell: hedging.

It's stuff like "not sure...but..." and "I think I agree with...need to check" and "I think saying this means..." and "likely" and other modifiers.  You might call it hemming and hawing.  Or wishy-washy.  Or commitment adverse (like you and Dsell).

When you write a lot of text that seems to have a lot of substance, but actually don't take any firm stances and instead leave yourself a lot of "outs" like "maybes" and "I'll have to check," it's scummy.

That's why.

[ashersky]

Has Morgrim said anything? Has Jorbles?

Jorbles has.  Morgrim has not.

[manda2014]

Manda, in the post I quoted, as well as in your most recent substantial one, you commit what I see as a pretty standard scumtell: hedging.

It's stuff like "not sure...but..." and "I think I agree with...need to check" and "I think saying this means..." and "likely" and other modifiers.  You might call it hemming and hawing.  Or wishy-washy.  Or commitment adverse (like you and Dsell).

When you write a lot of text that seems to have a lot of substance, but actually don't take any firm stances and instead leave yourself a lot of "outs" like "maybes" and "I'll have to check," it's scummy.

That's why.

To be fair, my "need to check" was remedied in the next post after I went back to see who it was that I was paraphrasing. And, as I said when signing up for the game, my time is super limited until at least 12/8. I do, however, all but promise some substantial analysis tomorrow evening after I get to Texas (the "all but" being the less-than-promising internet connection at my grandmother's...)

[Jorbles]

Has Morgrim said anything? Has Jorbles?

Jorbles has.  Morgrim has not.

Can we get a prod on Morgrim?

[WalrusMcFishSr]

OK, update time. You can expect about one of these * day^-1 from me until i get home on Saturday.

faust, in my last post I stated that I thought that the JOAT would be best for scum, you can check if you want. Some others have commented about daychat. Maybe I just haven't experienced its power first hand, but it seems like a waste to me. I was skimming through MII* for a lark, and one thing that Galz commented on at the end that struck me was how he and Robz barely used chat at all to coordinate, so as to keep their reactions as genuine as possible. Now I know this is frighteningly out of date. But that's what I think about daychat--not worth a town PR to me if I were wearing scum shoes.

Does one of you big-city liberal arts literary types care to explain what you mean by a purloined letter? I gather that it's a story by Poe. But what's the metaphor here.

I'm not seeing a better vote than Robz still so far. That rage!vote didn't help...I know Voltaire gets your goat Robz, but I believe that's more of a scumtell for you than town-.

ash is seeming townier to me in general than he did right at the beginning. Posting more rapid-fire ash-style questions/observations.

Now that he's back Voltaire initially seems more like the Voltaire I expected in Game of Thrones that never quite materialized in my eyes, i.e. incisive and scumhunty. But I was way off on Volt in GoT, so let's say a slight town read there.

I don't really get the wagon on Jimmmmm. Nothing he's done seems super suspicious to me. Although I haven't played with him as much, so I don't have as good a feel on him.

I'd like to reserve judgment on e until Toy Story is over, because that's where I've been watching him play most extensively. Null for now.

Teproc...well seems a bit different than he did in GoT? That was a weird situation because he was a sub, but I was amazed by how quickly he jumped into the fray and started analyzing the hell out of everything. I'm not seeing that as much right now. Maybe he'll shine more once we've actually generated a fair corpus of comments to sort through? But slight scum read for now.

manda's post seemed more new player than anything to me. Probably slight town even.

Null on the rest for not really having enough material to look at (unless I missed something huge).

*Some other highly relevant observations from MII:
--noob!Robz is adorable! "Hello, everyone! I am very excited to be involved in another Mafia game. Seriously in love with Mafia, here."
--noob!Galz thinks Voltgloss is Voltglass. He he. Although Voltglass sounds pretty badass too, like maybe the columns of minerals left by lightning strikes on beaches.
--noob!Voltgloss is a comedian! Posting Looney Tunes and shit. Hilarious.

[Robz888]

I was skimming through MII* for a lark, and one thing that Galz commented on at the end that struck me was how he and Robz barely used chat at all to coordinate, so as to keep their reactions as genuine as possible. Now I know this is frighteningly out of date.

Bingo.

Does one of you big-city liberal arts literary types care to explain what you mean by a purloined letter? I gather that it's a story by Poe. But what's the metaphor here.

I believe it means, something hiding in plain sight.

I'm not seeing a better vote than Robz still so far. That rage!vote didn't help...I know Voltaire gets your goat Robz, but I believe that's more of a scumtell for you than town-.

It is, which is why this game will help rebalance things so that that's a null-tell again.

[Voltaire]

Wow a lot to read since the last time I had a chance to check it.....

Not sure how I'd rank all the roles yet; I'll need to go back and look really closely at the setup, but I think daytalk is definitely the strongest role there. I know that, if I were scum, I'd be really nervous about trying to play out the day without a chance to openly rethink strategy with my partner, and daytalk would significantly decrease my stress level. Other than that, I'm not sure, but I think I agree with, ummm.... (not sure who said it lemme go look).... that adding a bunch of scum PRs wouldn't really be worth adding a ton of town PRs as well.

Also (and I say this feeling like I'm at a real disadvantage here because I have very little meta information to go off of and DEFINITELY don't have time to go back and examine it all. Such is life I guess), I am not sure I see the value in an extended discussion about whether someone is acting like town!themselves or scum!themselves, because an experienced player is likely knowledgable enough about their own meta to tailor their behavior to the self they want to come off as. That sort of discussion makes a lot of sense in a face-to-face mafia game, where people are having to think on the fly and it's easy to read panic in voices and body language, but this format allows people to be so calculating that I have a hard time seeing meta-analysis as being particularly helfpul...

Is manda getting the newbie D1 pass?  Just asking, because this was a scummy sounding post.

Why? It reads like a classic newbie post to me. Yes, she's getting a D1 pass. When have we ever lynched a newbie for playing like a newbie and had them flip scum? Never that I'm aware of. And Mafia VII was a long time ago, the f.ds meta has changed since then.

Manda, in the post I quoted, as well as in your most recent substantial one, you commit what I see as a pretty standard scumtell: hedging.

It's stuff like "not sure...but..." and "I think I agree with...need to check" and "I think saying this means..." and "likely" and other modifiers.  You might call it hemming and hawing.  Or wishy-washy.  Or commitment adverse (like you and Dsell).

When you write a lot of text that seems to have a lot of substance, but actually don't take any firm stances and instead leave yourself a lot of "outs" like "maybes" and "I'll have to check," it's scummy.

That's why.

I strongly disagree that this is scummy. Town is unsure. Mafia picks reasonable-sounding stances.

[Voltaire]

It is, which is why this game will help rebalance things so that that's a null-tell again.

So as much as I hate to say it (because this sort of thing REALLY gets on my nerves), but I re-read Robz in an ongoing game and a complete game where he has different alignments, and this Robz does actually match the town Robz. Even though everything he's doing is screaming scum here, 1. my gut is usually wrong 2. that Robz is usually mislynched town Robz.

All of which means that because Robz gambits he's a null for me. But (and here's a meta argument for you manda): anti-town, carefree Robz is usually townRobz. Helpful, trying Robz is usually scumRobz. So I don't actually like the votes on him anymore.

[Voltaire]

If we're facing two goons now, we have Faust + 1 PR.  That's pretty weaksauce, honestly, so a good scum team might prefer that.

But we can't be facing two goons because there will be a traitor whether they got recruited pre-game or not. So we have to act as though we're facing a three-man scum team because, well, we are. They just can't talk to each other.

[yuma]

Has Morgrim said anything? Has Jorbles?

Jorbles has.  Morgrim has not.

Can we get a prod on Morgrim?

Morgrim has a previously announced VLA at the moment.

Im gonna be vla on mon and tue.

But if he hasn't posted shortly after this this VLA he will receive a prod per the rules of the game.

[faust]

Actually changing my answer a bit, just more likely to pick a pr now then before, the ic sucks in this setup(no offense Faust) I believe most of an Ic's power has nothing to do with who roles it and what they do, it all has to do with the setup which does not favor an ic here. So now there really aren't many good powers.

Yes, I agree. No watching, no doctor... it's likely that I'll be dead tomorrow, no additional information gained.

There's a Bodyguard possible.  So you could live at that player's expense.

Yes, but I doubt it would be good play from a Bodyguard to protect me.

[Voltaire]

Yes, but I doubt it would be good play from a Bodyguard to protect me.

Really? Isn't that ideal bodyguard play? Otherwise they're risking "protecting" mafia (a wasted action, but the Bodyguard isn't a Hider) or dying to save a VT. If the Bodyguard protects you, and mafia takes out you, we have another day with our IC.

[faust]

faust, in my last post I stated that I thought that the JOAT would be best for scum, you can check if you want. Some others have commented about daychat. Maybe I just haven't experienced its power first hand, but it seems like a waste to me. I was skimming through MII* for a lark, and one thing that Galz commented on at the end that struck me was how he and Robz barely used chat at all to coordinate, so as to keep their reactions as genuine as possible. Now I know this is frighteningly out of date. But that's what I think about daychat--not worth a town PR to me if I were wearing scum shoes.

So you're saying you would only pick JOAT as scum?

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Yeah probs

[faust]

Yes, but I doubt it would be good play from a Bodyguard to protect me.

Really? Isn't that ideal bodyguard play? Otherwise they're risking "protecting" mafia (a wasted action, but the Bodyguard isn't a Hider) or dying to save a VT. If the Bodyguard protects you, and mafia takes out you, we have another day with our IC.

What if there's say, a Cop that claims D2 because they have a guilty result? Then the Bodyguard can ensure they live for another Night, getting an extra result.

Also, we don't want our PRs outed early. Don't, don't , don't. If the Bodyguard dies protecting me, and mafia chose no powers from themselves, they can happily fakeclaim any town PR without risk of being counterclaimed.

[Voltaire]

Yes, but I doubt it would be good play from a Bodyguard to protect me.

Really? Isn't that ideal bodyguard play? Otherwise they're risking "protecting" mafia (a wasted action, but the Bodyguard isn't a Hider) or dying to save a VT. If the Bodyguard protects you, and mafia takes out you, we have another day with our IC.

What if there's say, a Cop that claims D2 because they have a guilty result? Then the Bodyguard can ensure they live for another Night, getting an extra result.

Mmmmm, yes, but that's assuming 1. We have a cop 2. They can investigate anyone. If the mafia took JOAT and Rolecop, they're immune to the Cop and he's a useless PR (other than being a named Townie).

[faust]

Yes, but I doubt it would be good play from a Bodyguard to protect me.

Really? Isn't that ideal bodyguard play? Otherwise they're risking "protecting" mafia (a wasted action, but the Bodyguard isn't a Hider) or dying to save a VT. If the Bodyguard protects you, and mafia takes out you, we have another day with our IC.

What if there's say, a Cop that claims D2 because they have a guilty result? Then the Bodyguard can ensure they live for another Night, getting an extra result.

Mmmmm, yes, but that's assuming 1. We have a cop 2. They can investigate anyone. If the mafia took JOAT and Rolecop, they're immune to the Cop and he's a useless PR (other than being a named Townie).

If the mafia took JOAT and Rolecop, there are 4 town PRs, so at least 2 better Bodyguard targets than me. Saving a Vigilante is better than saving me. Saving a Tracker is better than saving me. Saving a Roleblocker is better than saving me.

[Voltaire]

If the mafia took JOAT and Rolecop, there are 4 town PRs, so at least 2 better Bodyguard targets than me. Saving a Vigilante is better than saving me. Saving a Tracker is better than saving me. Saving a Roleblocker is better than saving me.

Well in the abstract, yes. But I think you have to target more conservatively, because we don't know any of that.

[faust]

I wanted to wait for Morgrim, but he will be VLA today, and discussion should move on. So here's the (almost) final list:

Voltaire - Daychat (+ X)
Walrus - JOAT
Robz - (Daychat)
Jimmmm - Role Cop (+ Recruit)
ashersky - None or Daychat, JOAT, Recruit
faust – Role Cop (+Daychat)
Jorbles - Daychat, JOAT
manda - Daychat
Teproc - Role Cop, JOAT
morgrim - ?
2.7 - Daychat, Recruit, Role Cop
mcmcsalot - (Daychat + Recruit)

Up to now, everyone ignored one important factor in the PR decision: scum, and only scum, knows how many PRs are out there. So once all PRs are outed (claimed or killed), they can safely fakeclaim one of the remaining roles. This is the reason I think scum wouldn't choose three powers, because it would strip them of this possibility.

So what to choose? Daychat and Recruiting seems a good combo, because having another person to talk to strengthens the Daychat option. But of course this makes the Goon Cop super strong, so it's probably not the best option. A Role Cop is a great addition, I think, because it allows for earlier fake claims and helps taking out the town PRs. And this is it, all I would choose as mafia powers. Maybe, with a newbie scum, I might consider Daychat additionally.

Now to the second part of this – what do the answers reveal about the setup and about who scum is?

Many people seem to think that Daychat is a strong option, so chances are mafia thought that too. Please treat this game as though mafia had Daychat. That means: if there's an exchange between two players, and in the end of it both seem more townie to you, read again. Try to find out if the whole thing could be staged. Voting patterns also need to be analyzed with this in mind.

We can porbably write off the Bulletproof, as it is considered the weakest power by everyone. Recruiting doesn't have a lot of fans, so we probably deal with a Traitor. That makes it harder to scumhunt effectively. But if we're lucky, scum accidentally shoots the Traitor.

Generally, most of us think that one or two powers are probably the best choice. So we're looking at three, maybe four town PRs. At latest after the third claim, any further claims should be handled with a healthy dose of scepticism. In fact, I propose a claiming plan: After we have our first PR outed (which is actually the second, because I am already outed), if anyone wants to claim, they first state the intent to do so. Then everyone else gets a chance to claim PR. We determine a claiming order somehow, and then all PRs fullclaim. This should make it harder for scum to fakeclaim.

Finally, what to make of people's power picks? Get in the head of scum for a moment. It doesn't matter much if you say the truth or not, but can you actually use this to manipulate town? Yes, you can! Make them believe there are lots of PRs out there, so that later a fakeclaim will look less suspicious. Because of that, slight FoS to all who took the 3 powers option.

[Voltaire]

In fact, I propose a claiming plan: After we have our first PR outed (which is actually the second, because I am already outed), if anyone wants to claim, they first state the intent to do so. Then everyone else gets a chance to claim PR. We determine a claiming order somehow, and then all PRs fullclaim. This should make it harder for scum to fakeclaim.

Finally, what to make of people's power picks? Get in the head of scum for a moment. It doesn't matter much if you say the truth or not, but can you actually use this to manipulate town? Yes, you can! Make them believe there are lots of PRs out there, so that later a fakeclaim will look less suspicious. Because of that, slight FoS to all who took the 3 powers option.

So the plan is basically to massclaim after the second PR is outed? I understand wanting to take mafia's ability to fakeclaim away from them, but they already know how many PRs we have. Why is it good to tell them what they are? Mafia will fakeclaim anyway and try to win the claim/counter-claim argument if they need to avoid creating an IC with any remaining power roles. So if we don't think mafia took 3 powers (5 for us), this means we're looking at 4, 3, or 2 PRs:

• If it's 2, we confirm to ourselves that we're just VTs from now on. Mafia would already know that. I guess this helps us since we then know not to expect any more PR help, and mafia can't fake claim.
• If it's 3, we out what our remaining power role is to mafia. They'll fakeclaim if it helps them and try to get a mislynch, or just kill said PR that night.
• If it's 4, this is better. We out our 2 remaining power roles to mafia, potentially forcing them to fakeclaim/counterclaim someone. We have up to 2 temporary ICs.

Wait no. This doesn't work. What if we have (just to pick something) IC, Goon Cop, Vig. Let's say the Vig dies tonight. Tomorrow we massclaim. What's to prevent mafia from claiming Roleblocker or Tracker or something? They know town has 3 PRs. They know 2 are dead. Their odds of getting away with a fakeclaim are 3/4. And then we start treating a mafia like an IC.

I don't think this plan works.

[faust]

I don't want an immediate massclaim after the second PR is outed. I want the massclaim when the third PR is about to claim. This is a substantial difference. So Voltaire, in your example, we don't massclaim right away at D2, we massclaim when the Goon Cop thinks he should claim.

What we absolutely shouldn't do is treat anyone who claims as an IC. It could always be a lucky fake claim.

I'm not sure that my plan would work great, but we have to do something to prevent mafia from getting safe fake claims.

[Voltaire]

I don't want an immediate massclaim after the second PR is outed. I want the massclaim when the third PR is about to claim. This is a substantial difference. So Voltaire, in your example, we don't massclaim right away at D2, we massclaim when the Goon Cop thinks he should claim.

What we absolutely shouldn't do is treat anyone who claims as an IC. It could always be a lucky fake claim.

I'm not sure that my plan would work great, but we have to do something to prevent mafia from getting safe fake claims.

I'm not sure how it's better than just letting PRs claim when they think they should claim, and we are as skeptical as necessary. Why force the other PRs to out themselves when one PR wants to claim? (if, say, we had a goon cop AND a tracker remaining in my example). What would we gain from the tracker getting outed? (in this mafia's odds go to 2/4 odds of getting away with it. I know many players who would play those odds).

I am just super-wary of fakeclaims.