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[EFHW]

I may run one of my original blitz games again, for old times sake, after Hangman ends.  Would folks play?

In a heartbeat! Yes yes yes!

So, I gather these were really fun!

Only like the most fun games ever!

Pretty much.

Ok, I'm in.

[mail-mi]

I forgot what my invented game was going to be... so you can go ahead and drop it.

[ashersky]

Sign me up for a normal game. Probably standard, and definitely House of Cards-themed, it's a pretty clean fit with most games of mafia I would say.

Tep, want to run this as newbie friendly?

I'd love for someone to run asher9++ again, as I'd like more data on it, and it's about the most "complex" newbie friendly setup we have.

[sudgy]

Sign me up for a normal game. Probably standard, and definitely House of Cards-themed, it's a pretty clean fit with most games of mafia I would say.

Tep, want to run this as newbie friendly?

I'd love for someone to run asher9++ again, as I'd like more data on it, and it's about the most "complex" newbie friendly setup we have.

++ setups are not newbie friendly to a fair bit of people.  At least, it wouldn't for me.  When I first saw ++ setups, the first thing I thought was, "Wooooah that's really complicated."

[Teproc]

Maybe so, but the actual play isn't that hard. Even if you don't figure out everything about the setup, your teammates (if you're scum) or the town will help you understand it. I think ++ games are fine for newbies, and we already have a 9players simple setup going on.

So yeah, asher9++, why not. I'm not up yet though, right ? mail-mi is ahead of me and we don't want another game to leapfrog Philosopher's Mafia.

[faust]

Maybe so, but the actual play isn't that hard. Even if you don't figure out everything about the setup, your teammates (if you're scum) or the town will help you understand it. I think ++ games are fine for newbies, and we already have a 9players simple setup going on.

So yeah, asher9++, why not. I'm not up yet though, right ? mail-mi is ahead of me and we don't want another game to leapfrog Philosopher's Mafia.

mail-mi currently has an RMM game open for signups, so I doubt he will want to open up another game anytime soon. The second portion I absolutely agree with of course.

[ashersky]

The idea was to move your game from regular to newbie.  We generally always want newbie games open to attract new players.

Newbies can't play Philosophy Mafia, so we need another to open.  Mail-mi is awaiting Wheel of a Time to fill.

Plus, Tep will be a first time full mod, and it's nice to give new folks a shot.

[Teproc]

Oh, I see. So following the newbie numbering ? asher9++ is significantly more complicated than what has been used there in the past (2of4, Matrix 6), but I do agree that we need a newbie game open, and with Star Wars already running, having another simple 9p game doesn't seem like a good idea.

Ok, I'll open asap, I need to work on the flavor.

[Teproc]

Well, I do want to hear what people think about this before I do anything though. If the consensus is that newbie setups should be 9 players and simpler than 9++, I could do Alternating 9p, I think it's only been done once on f.ds (the Hydras game) and it's different enough from Matrix6.

[mcmcsalot]

I would not suggest Asher++ for newbies, the part of ++ that is newbie friendly is it ridiculously easy to solve and usually favors town. Asher++ is almost unsolvable which just makes it a large unknown pr game(which is awesome) but not newbie friendly. Newbie games also want to stick with baisically full pr's, I would shy away from shot and uncommon like commuter which cause the player to make quite an educate decision about what to do when(and if done wrong can very negatively impact the game)


On a different note, I have been thinking about a setup were town is unaware of their pr. Like all town players send in a list containing a doctor/cop/roleblocker/tracker targets but have no idea which one they are. Well that was the first idea, recently I thought I could have a (random) pr set, so say 6 town players send in their 4 pr target then I roll for who is each pr that night, results could be revealed to the player only or to everyone at day start. I am thinkin this would be countered by a stronger than normal scum team. If results are revealed to town at day start(ex eevee was doctored) you still wouldn't know if you doctored him or if another player doctored him, this allows people to know pr results but not know who or why, removing the ability to make double or triple Ic's with pr reveals. Also thinking if the person rolled the pr that night dies, the pr does with them. This setup can be made simpler to just be a rmm or more interestingly filled to be bastard.

[jotheonah]

That sounds a little bit like doctor mafia (the first mafia I ever ran on this site)

[sudgy]

What I meant more was that if you did a ++ setup for a newbie game it would scare away a lot of newbies.

[Voltaire]

Yeah, I would vote that asher++ is a bad idea for a newbie game. That said, I'd love to see the setup run again.

[Teproc]

Ok, so I won't do asher9++, so I'm looking at a simpler setup, probably 9 players because the smaller the game is, the easier it is to get involved. Alternating 9P looks like a cool idea, but it also seems like town is pretty weak in that. Maybe I'll tweak it by making the Cop Odd-Night instead of Even (and obviously switch the Doctor).

If anyone has a better idea for a 9 player newbie setup (that isn't Matrix6 because of Star Wars), I'm interested. Otherwise, I'll probably open a tweaked Alternating 9P tomorrow, as NMV.

[Twistedarcher]

2of4 is always a good setup...simple, but simple can be good

[ashersky]

2of4 is always a good setup...simple, but simple can be good

2of4 was my first game.

Ok, so I won't do asher9++, so I'm looking at a simpler setup, probably 9 players because the smaller the game is, the easier it is to get involved. Alternating 9P looks like a cool idea, but it also seems like town is pretty weak in that. Maybe I'll tweak it by making the Cop Odd-Night instead of Even (and obviously switch the Doctor).

If anyone has a better idea for a 9 player newbie setup (that isn't Matrix6 because of Star Wars), I'm interested. Otherwise, I'll probably open a tweaked Alternating 9P tomorrow, as NMV.

No tweaked games for newbies.  Standard set-ups only.  If ++ is "too hard" then changing the rules on something would be too.

[Teproc]

I'm not sure why that would be. The tweak here would simply be to reverse the Cop and the Doc, nothing that changes complexity, just balance. The risk here is that it would make it too easy for town, but I'm not sure it would. I guess it creates a situation where the Cop creates two ICs day 2 if he claims, then there's WIFOM with the Doctor on the econd night which might lead both ICs to survive... yeah, maybe it is too strong for town.

[ashersky]

I'm not sure why that would be. The tweak here would simply be to reverse the Cop and the Doc, nothing that changes complexity, just balance. The risk here is that it would make it too easy for town, but I'm not sure it would. I guess it creates a situation where the Cop creates two ICs day 2 if he claims, then there's WIFOM with the Doctor on the econd night which might lead both ICs to survive... yeah, maybe it is too strong for town.

I mean, 2of4 is good, if you want an easy game.  Check MX for an example.

[ashersky]

Here's one we used to use a lot, but died out:

The setup used for this newbie game is one of the ones given below. The setup is randomly determined, but is one of the 6 given here:

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Doctor.

There will always be two mafia players and seven town players.

[ashersky]

Here's one we used to use a lot, but died out:

The setup used for this newbie game is one of the ones given below. The setup is randomly determined, but is one of the 6 given here:

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Rolecop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Doctor.

There will always be two mafia players and seven town players.

Actually, that's just 2of4, just written out a different way.  Huh.

[Teproc]

2of4 is a little too similar to Matrix6, the goal is for people who want to play both to have a somewhat different experience. I think I'm going to go with Alternating 9P without changing anything.

[ashersky]

You could run F11, which I ran for newbies as M21.

[ashersky]

I've created a new reference sticky topic on setups.  I'll be slowly filling it up with information so we don't need to refer to mafiascum as often.  It'll be a reference for mods, players, etc.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10639.0

[yuma]

2of4 is always a good setup...simple, but simple can be good

both 2of4 and F11 have some inherent flaws in their structure. 2of4 tried to replace F11 and was ultimately replaced by Matrix6. So I wouldn't recommend using these setups, although they aren't necessarily bad, but just not as good at this point as others. Alternating looks cool, but switching the nights between cop and doc would I think make it unbalanced.

[ashersky]

2of4 is always a good setup...simple, but simple can be good

both 2of4 and F11 have some inherent flaws in their structure. 2of4 tried to replace F11 and was ultimately replaced by Matrix6. So I wouldn't recommend using these setups, although they aren't necessarily bad, but just not as good at this point as others. Alternating looks cool, but switching the nights between cop and doc would I think make it unbalanced.

I find them all a bit dull and easy, to be honest, which is why I still think ++ setups are the best introduction to mafia.  They offer "normal" power roles (nothing hard or crazy) and randomization at a much higher level.