Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[faust]

Let's do some theory talk!

Do you think the Bulletproof Townie should claim D1?

[Eevee]

I think nooo? We wont lynch him ever, as he can just claim at L-1, so thats not a concern. The tradeoff would be one confirmed town voice in the expense of losing the option of mafia wasting their kill on the BP. As it is, BP is like having a doctor that always saves the same guy, I think that's better than a confirmed town voice.

[Eevee]

am i missing something?

[EFHW]

If the BP townie claims, then mafia know there is no cop or doctor.  And if there is a roleblocker, that is one less person for them to target.  So, I say no.

[Voltaire]

mail-mi seems to vote someone for being similar to himself! vote: mail-mi.

It's the best I've got, I usually vote for the person I've never played with before but I'm already sick of all your faces already played with all of you. 

[faust]

Okay, I think I need to make clear why I think this is a good idea. The reasons for and against having the BP townie claim are these (I hope I didn't forget anything:

CONTRA claiming:
1. mafia knows the exact setup
2. mafia won't waste a kill on the BP townie
3. mafia won't roleblock the BP townie

PRO claiming:
1. the BP townie essentially turns into an IC
2. our lynch pool gets smaller, giving us a bigger chance to hit mafia
3. we know more about the setup (there is a Jailkeeper or a Tracker)
4. our PR's target pool gets smaller

So regarding the contra points:
1. yes, they do. What harm is that, exactly? They have an information advantage already, they will have an information advantage afterwards. And it's not like they can use that information for fake-claims, because one of us knows the exact setup as well.
2. probably the biggest downside to BP claiming. But I think it is outweighed by the upsides. And there's a 50% chance we still have another protective role.
3. okay, mafia chances of succesful roleblocking increase from 1/7 to 1/6. That's a risk I'm willing to take.

What it really boils down to is this: Do we think that one-shot BP IC is a more powerful role than one-shot BP townie? Imagine Voltgloss in M31 would have been one-shot BP instead of IC. Imagine Galzria in M32 would have been one-shot BP instead of IC. Would this have increased town's chances of winning in those games? I don't think so. And both didn't even have the additional bulletproof we would have.

[Voltaire]

CONTRA
4. BP townie can claim on a later day for wicked POE against mafia.

My input is that the BP, if they exist, should use their own judgement on whether or not to claim (I think in this situation both opinions can make sense, so one action or another isn't a derp! action). Publicly talking about it is just an opportunity for the BP to accidentally reveal himself to the mafia, gaining us nothing and the mafia muchthings.

[Eevee]

CONTRA
4. BP townie can claim on a later day for wicked POE against mafia.

My input is that the BP, if they exist, should use their own judgement on whether or not to claim (I think in this situation both opinions can make sense, so one action or another isn't a derp! action). Publicly talking about it is just an opportunity for the BP to accidentally reveal himself to the mafia, gaining us nothing and the mafia muchthings.

I agree with this 100%. Also, your pro #2 isn't correct in my opinion - the BP townie was never in the lynch pool.

[faust]

CONTRA
4. BP townie can claim on a later day for wicked POE against mafia.

My input is that the BP, if they exist, should use their own judgement on whether or not to claim (I think in this situation both opinions can make sense, so one action or another isn't a derp! action). Publicly talking about it is just an opportunity for the BP to accidentally reveal himself to the mafia, gaining us nothing and the mafia muchthings.

I agree with this 100%. Also, your pro #2 isn't correct in my opinion - the BP townie was never in the lynch pool.

Well, I guess we wouldn't lynch them in the end, but we would push them to L-1, when we could have used that time better hunting for actual scum.

[faust]

Also, vote: Eevee

You agree 100% that we shouldn't talk about BP claiming and then continue to talk about it?

[faust]

CONTRA
4. BP townie can claim on a later day for wicked POE against mafia.

I don't really see how having the BP claim later is any better for POE than having them claim immediately. But I agree of course that this choice is up to the BP townie themselves, should we have one.

[Robz888]

Okay, we're going to back to normal non-crazy non-constant claiming. Don't claim except at L-1 or during extenuating circumstances.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Yessss Game of Thrones!!!! Time for a quick pre-work post to kick things off:

BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada

(That's the theme song in case that wasn't clear)

Hello all!  I am not familiar with Game of Thrones - I hope that isn't a problem.

That is a huge problem so far as I'm concerned You should rectify this immediately.

Let's do some theory talk!

Do you think the Bulletproof Townie should claim D1?

If this is hypothetical "theory talk" it sounds pretty concrete to me. What do you mean by "the" BP? Does this strike anyone else as odd?

Is that a soft row/column claim? Are YOU a BP? Just rolefishing perhaps?

Maybe it's really just honest speculation or I'm being dense. But vote: faust until I get an explanation.

I'll be back around lunch to check up on things.

[EFHW]

Contra #5: The mafia's target pool in looking for the other PR is reduced. 

I agree with faust that this comes down to how valuable we think an IC is to town.  While it helps to have a voice we know is truthful, it reduces town responsibility and can lead to everyone deferring to the IC instead of coming up with or listening to other ideas.  And this happens no matter how hard the IC tries to dissuade town from doing so.  Also, someone suggested re: LOTR2 that it is good if the IC is revealed later in the game, like Day 2.

[EFHW]

Also, vote: Eevee

You agree 100% that we shouldn't talk about BP claiming and then continue to talk about it?

You brought it up and now you are voting Eevee for talking about it!  Kind of a cheap vote, don't you think? 

[faust]

Yessss Game of Thrones!!!! Time for a quick pre-work post to kick things off:

BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada

(That's the theme song in case that wasn't clear)

Hello all!  I am not familiar with Game of Thrones - I hope that isn't a problem.

That is a huge problem so far as I'm concerned You should rectify this immediately.

Let's do some theory talk!

Do you think the Bulletproof Townie should claim D1?

If this is hypothetical "theory talk" it sounds pretty concrete to me. What do you mean by "the" BP? Does this strike anyone else as odd?

Is that a soft row/column claim? Are YOU a BP? Just rolefishing perhaps?

Maybe it's really just honest speculation or I'm being dense. But vote: faust until I get an explanation.

I'll be back around lunch to check up on things.

I write "the" BP because there is at most one.

And what about those other questions -  are YOU rolefishing?

What do you want an explanation for? I tried to start a discussion because I've already played this setup and had this idea, so I wanted to know what the players in this game think about it. Go back and read NMIV, and you'll see that I proposed the exact same plan - as a VT.

[faust]

Also, vote: Eevee

You agree 100% that we shouldn't talk about BP claiming and then continue to talk about it?

You brought it up and now you are voting Eevee for talking about it!  Kind of a cheap vote, don't you think?

Sure it's a cheap vote, it's the start of D1! I just wanted to point out the inconsistency in saying: "Oh right, I agree we shouldn't talk about topic X anymore. By the way, I think [something topic-X-related]."

[EFHW]

but it's not an RVS vote, just to be clear.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Yessss Game of Thrones!!!! Time for a quick pre-work post to kick things off:

BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada

(That's the theme song in case that wasn't clear)

Hello all!  I am not familiar with Game of Thrones - I hope that isn't a problem.

That is a huge problem so far as I'm concerned You should rectify this immediately.

Let's do some theory talk!

Do you think the Bulletproof Townie should claim D1?

If this is hypothetical "theory talk" it sounds pretty concrete to me. What do you mean by "the" BP? Does this strike anyone else as odd?

Is that a soft row/column claim? Are YOU a BP? Just rolefishing perhaps?

Maybe it's really just honest speculation or I'm being dense. But vote: faust until I get an explanation.

I'll be back around lunch to check up on things.

I write "the" BP because there is at most one.

And what about those other questions -  are YOU rolefishing?

What do you want an explanation for? I tried to start a discussion because I've already played this setup and had this idea, so I wanted to know what the players in this game think about it. Go back and read NMIV, and you'll see that I proposed the exact same plan - as a VT.

Sure'n I wasn't actually expecting answers to those questions...they were merely rhetorical to illustrate my thought process.

I'll go and check out NMIV I guess at some point. It just seemed like an oddly specific point to immediately bring up. Why consider the BP townie so pointedly? Why not discuss any of the other possible roles or configurations at all?

That, and it seems like you're acting a little more...overeager? than I would expect based on my experience playing with you. Seemed a little out of character to be jumping in and taking center stage right at the outset, and that raised some warning flags for me.

That being said, I'll actually do my homework and look at NMIV over lunch.

[Voltaire]

Post count!
9 Faust
5 EFHW
5 Eevee
2 WalrusMcFishSr
2 Voltaire
1 Robz888
1 Mail-Mi
0 Yuma
0 Chairs

[WalrusMcFishSr]

All right, I looked it through, and yes you do make pretty much the exact same case in NMIV. I guess faust just really likes talking about BP roles.

unvote

I don't think it would be a wise claim though. I could see the arguments for it, I guess, but I'm not convinced it's a good idea. I agree with Robz that we should probably try to pare back claiming somewhat in this game.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Not to say my suspicions are completely allayed. That post count shows what I was talking about: Is it not somewhat surprising to see faust top the chart so emphatically like that? I know it's just the beginning of the day, and things will surely stabilize in a couple RL days (I expect my relative post count to drop for example haha), but still it raised an eyebrow from me.

[Voltaire]

I think it is very bad to find a player scummy for exploring the strategic theory space of a game. I don't agree with faust but I certainly don't find him scummy for posting a lot at the start. The posts haven't been empty, either.

It certainly does stand out, though. I think I am glad you noticed that.

[chairs]

vote faust

It was a bad idea in New mafia four. It's a bad idea here and you have more veterans to take advantage of it.

[mail-mi]

vote faust

It was a bad idea in New mafia four. It's a bad idea here and you have more veterans to take advantage of it.

vote: chairs it's not that bad of an idea. In fact, my opinion is that the pros outweigh the cons.