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[Awaclus]

Let's imagine a Dominion variant which lets you add 0-10 Duchies (not from the Supply) to your starting deck for free. How many would you add, assuming that the kingdom is just a generic big money kingdom with no cards that have positive synergy with Duchies? What would be required from the kingdom for you to increase the number and how many extra Duchies would you get in that situation? Is it a no-brainer to take all 10 Duchies in a Duke game?

EDIT: This interests me because I find it extremely annoying when one of my $5s is Swindled into a Duchy, but lately I've been thinking that losing the $5 is the majority of what makes it such a strong play and I'm not even sure if gaining the Duchy is good or bad.

[Archetype]

In place of Estates? Then three.

In addition to Estates? Then none.

Duchies are fine, but better late game. On most boards (including the BM one you proposed) I wouldn't damage my economy just to get some.

[Awaclus]

In place of Estates? Then three.

In addition to Estates? Then none.

Duchies are fine, but better late game. On most boards (including the BM one you proposed) I wouldn't damage my economy just to get some.

In addition to Estates.

[liopoil]

In place of Estates? Then three.

really? I'd still probably take none. unless you're saying that I have to keep my estates if I don't take any.

[Warfreak2]

The real question is if you draw that Swindled Duchy in your hand with a Chapel, do you trash the Duchy? I think for most of the early game, you should.

[Awaclus]

The real question is if you draw that Swindled Duchy in your hand with a Chapel, do you trash the Duchy? I think for most of the early game, you should.

Though, in a Chapel game, Duchies are far worse for you than in a game without Chapel. With TFB, you certainly want to trash the Duchy, but you probably also wanted that Duchy temporarily, too.

[Zappie]

if you would take all ten duchies, your opponent already needs 5 provinces to equalize. if you manage to buy all 8 additional duchies while the opponent buys 8 provinces, you win with a 6 VP lead.
is that doable? i think it is with cards that give you buying power to the 5 cost level, like woodcutter for extra copper. Anny cards accelerating the end also greatly help.

[PSGarak]

My guess is that the correct answer is either 0, 1, or 10. I would have a hard time believing that, e.g., 8 Duchies is a good idea but that 9th one is just crossing the line. And 1 is only a good idea as a tiebreaker.

Having a starting deck of 13 VP cards and 7 copper would be painful. It would be the 5th turn before you could even start seeing what you bought on turn 1, and what you bought was probably a copper because your average hand value is less than $2. You would be luck to get a single Silver before your first (turn 4) reshuffle. In short, you will never buy that Duke.

Edge case: Poorhouse.
Maybe kind of not completely terrible, I guess?: Duchess, Embargo.

[eHalcyon]

if you would take all ten duchies, your opponent already needs 5 provinces to equalize. if you manage to buy all 8 additional duchies while the opponent buys 8 provinces, you win with a 6 VP lead.
is that doable? i think it is with cards that give you buying power to the 5 cost level, like woodcutter for extra copper. Anny cards accelerating the end also greatly help.

Your opponent gets an option to take Duchies too though.  I assume that, to be fair, each player chooses in secret.  It might also be interesting to choose in turn order, adding some p1 disadvantage to offset the usual advantage.

But in any case, if you take all 10 Duchies, you'll have difficulty even buying Silver, let alone Duchies or any Provinces.  Your opponent would probably be able to put something together with all that time you give him.

[WanderingWinder]

Embargo? No no no no no. They just embargo the coppers, then soon enough the silvers, and you are dead.

I think this discussion was had way back when Geronimoo added different start states to his simulator, and the answer for most BM games was 0. For BM. Obviously, in this engine world, it's going to be even worse.

[GendoIkari]

I made a similar thread a while back, though talking about Provinces instead of Duchies. It was more limited how many you could add, though.

[Archetype]

In place of Estates? Then three.

really? I'd still probably take none. unless you're saying that I have to keep my estates if I don't take any.

I was assuming you'd have to keep three of something. But if you don't, then I would want all coppers.

[SCSN]

In an ordinary Rebuild mirror, if one of the players starts with one extra Duchy he wins 45.7% vs. 51.6% for his opponent (the rest are ties). If one of the players starts with 2 Duchies he wins only 39.5% of the games.

When you add Duke to the board something interesting happens:

• 1 extra Duchy makes you a slight favorite (you win 0.7% more games than your opponent)
• 2 or 3 Duchies make you a slight dog (winning up to 2% less)
• adding 4 or more Duchies makes you a significant favorite (winning 9.7% more with 4, 32.1% with 5, 49.8% with 6, 76.9% with 7, ...)

[GendoIkari]

In an ordinary Rebuild mirror, if one of the players starts with one extra Duchy he wins 45.7% vs. 51.6% for his opponent (the rest are ties). If one of the players starts with 2 Duchies he wins only 39.5% of the games.

When you add Duke to the board something interesting happens:

• 1 extra Duchy makes you a slight favorite (you win 0.7% more games than your opponent)
• 2 or 3 Duchies make you a slight dog (winning up to 2% less)
• adding 4 or more Duchies makes you a significant favorite (winning 9.7% more with 4, 32.1% with 5, 49.8% with 6, 76.9% with 7, ...)

I'm very surprised at the last one... how are you going to be buying Dukes in a deck that's far more victory cards than treasure?

[Tables]

In an ordinary Rebuild mirror, if one of the players starts with one extra Duchy he wins 45.7% vs. 51.6% for his opponent (the rest are ties). If one of the players starts with 2 Duchies he wins only 39.5% of the games.

When you add Duke to the board something interesting happens:

• 1 extra Duchy makes you a slight favorite (you win 0.7% more games than your opponent)
• 2 or 3 Duchies make you a slight dog (winning up to 2% less)
• adding 4 or more Duchies makes you a significant favorite (winning 9.7% more with 4, 32.1% with 5, 49.8% with 6, 76.9% with 7, ...)

How are you testing this? If you're using Geronimoo's simulator, then is it 'adding' these extra Duchies, or is it 'taking' them from the supply? Because when I tried it, the Duchies I added to starting decks were assumed to come from the supply. If it's trying to play a Duke or Rebuild Mirror, and you're taking Duchies out of the supply, well, that's a long way to explaining your results.