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Author Topic: Circus  (Read 1767 times)

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Minotaur

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Circus
« on: October 31, 2013, 02:07:57 pm »
0

I didn't see a thread where this particularly belongs, or have any idea for a larger theme right away.

Circus
Action-Victory
Cost: 5*
+2 actions
When you gain this card, put a Showmanship token on your Circus mat.
During your turn, this card costs an additional 1 coin for each Showmanship token on your Circus mat.

1VP for each Showmanship token on your Circus mat.

(Question: Should I try 4* instead? Seems borderline to me, idk.)

(EDIT: Cost was originally 3*, see first comment. It's probably "worth" somewhere between 5* and 6*.)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:47:21 pm by Minotaur »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Circus
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 03:29:51 pm »
+1

Ignoring that it is an action (which makes it far more powerful), self-counting VP alone is a broken concept.  You've tried to correct this by also having an increasing cost.  I've thought about something similar and I'm not sure if it works or not.  The thing is, the VP is still very strong and cost-efficient.  Consider:

copies in deck|cost for next copy|VP for next copy
031
143
255
367
479
5811
6913
71015

So the very first copy is just an expensive Estate.  But after that, it's strictly better than any other VP card.  The second copy is Duchy for $4.  The third copy is Duchy with 2 extra VP.  The fourth copy costs less than Province and is worth more.

Now, in terms of space efficiency (VP/card), it matches Duchy by the third copy and it matches Province by the sixth.  But note that it will have cost much less.

In short, I doubt anyone could ever skip this.  Until the pile runs out, it makes the regular green irrelevant.  You cannot risk letting an opponent get the lions share of these; even losing the split 5 to 3 hurts a fair amount -- that's a 16 VP difference from 2 cards.  That puts you down nearly 3 Provinces.

If you raise the starting cost to $4, it's still quite strong as pure VP and probably broken.  With the action as well, it's almost certainly too strong.

Again, I am not sure, but I think self-counting VP is broken even with the increasing cost.  I don't think there is a point where it just works.  Either it is too cheap to ignore or too expensive to be worth the investment.  Occasionally it could be a target alt VP for a mega-turn engine, but in that scenario it isn't adding anything new or interesting to the game.

If you're up for it, consider other price points and how they compare to existing VP.  I believe I've shown that $3* doesn't work at all, but I did not show my work for $4.  So consider that, and consider $5. :)
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soulnet

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Re: Circus
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2013, 03:36:31 pm »
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The increasing cost would be great in a non-VP card, however. It can be nice with TfB a la Peddler, but also if the card is nice but stacking it is powerful (like a self-finding Golem would be).
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Minotaur

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Re: Circus
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2013, 03:36:58 pm »
0

Ignoring that it is an action (which makes it far more powerful), self-counting VP alone is a broken concept.  You've tried to correct this by also having an increasing cost.  I've thought about something similar and I'm not sure if it works or not.  The thing is, the VP is still very strong and cost-efficient.  Consider:

copies in deck|cost for next copy|VP for next copy
031
143
255
367
479
5811
6913
71015

So the very first copy is just an expensive Estate.  But after that, it's strictly better than any other VP card.  The second copy is Duchy for $4.  The third copy is Duchy with 2 extra VP.  The fourth copy costs less than Province and is worth more.

Now, in terms of space efficiency (VP/card), it matches Duchy by the third copy and it matches Province by the sixth.  But note that it will have cost much less.

In short, I doubt anyone could ever skip this.  Until the pile runs out, it makes the regular green irrelevant.  You cannot risk letting an opponent get the lions share of these; even losing the split 5 to 3 hurts a fair amount -- that's a 16 VP difference from 2 cards.  That puts you down nearly 3 Provinces.

If you raise the starting cost to $4, it's still quite strong as pure VP and probably broken.  With the action as well, it's almost certainly too strong.

Again, I am not sure, but I think self-counting VP is broken even with the increasing cost.  I don't think there is a point where it just works.  Either it is too cheap to ignore or too expensive to be worth the investment.  Occasionally it could be a target alt VP for a mega-turn engine, but in that scenario it isn't adding anything new or interesting to the game.

If you're up for it, consider other price points and how they compare to existing VP.  I believe I've shown that $3* doesn't work at all, but I did not show my work for $4.  So consider that, and consider $5. :)

Thanks, that was great.

Hmmm, that is a bit much when you sort it that way. Maybe $5 is fair. I wanted it to give +action, because you want to buy a lot of them, but they have to scale in cost as well to be fair, but then you're screwing yourself out of being able to buy them if you do so, so make it a Village variant and call it a Circus!.

Since originally I started at $3, I figured a true Village would be too strong. But if it costs $5*, how does +1 card, +2 actions look?
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Minotaur

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Re: Circus
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2013, 03:38:36 pm »
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If the cost is 5*, then the fourth one is a Village and a Province+1 priced like a Province. Not bad?

Making the card not worth it if they don't need the Village could stop it from being a mandatory-or-useless card, sort of in line with Nobles; it could maybe cost 6*, even, given that comparison. I'm not taking the possibility of being able to get more than 5 of them all that seriously, either.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:44:20 pm by Minotaur »
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sudgy

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Re: Circus
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2013, 03:39:26 pm »
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Donald tried to make a self-counting victory card, but couldn't get it to work.  It became Duke.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Minotaur

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Re: Circus
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2013, 03:51:38 pm »
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Alternate scheme (X = number of tokens)

Circus (2.0)
+2 actions
Cost = 3 + 2X
VP = X

This falls just short of the VP of a Duchy/Province at the right times and makes up for it by being a nerfed Village on the side. Won't screw you over too hard if you only get three. The fifth and sixth ones compare well to Colony too.

You really don't want to get Saboteured, Swindled, or Knighted by someone who's not buying them, though!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:55:35 pm by Minotaur »
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Minotaur

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Re: Circus
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2013, 05:07:38 pm »
0

Modern spin-off...

Oil Field
Victory-Treasure
Cost: 6*

+1 coin for each Oil Field not in the supply.

This card costs an additional 2 coins for each Oil Field not in the supply.

------------------------------------------

One VP for each Oil Field not in the supply.

Setup: This pile counts as a one-pile ending.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 05:16:58 pm by Minotaur »
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Storyteller/Crown is Donald's Vietnam Watergate.  Alchemy is Donald's Vietnam.  Scout is the time Donald choked on a pretzel.
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