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[Archetype]

Oh dang it! And I thought I was doing so well! I knew one of ashersky/BoxOfDog was scum, but I needed chairs' flip to figure out.

I was planning on buying a Vig tonight and....

If chairs flipped Town I would shoot BoxOfDog.

If chairs was scum I would shoot ashersky.

PPS was so Towny to me, though. So great job! You had me fooled!

[ashersky]

Oh dang it! And I thought I was doing so well! I knew one of ashersky/BoxOfDog was scum, but I needed chairs' flip to figure out.

I was planning on buying a Vig tonight and....

If chairs flipped Town I would shoot BoxOfDog.

If chairs was scum I would shoot ashersky.

PPS was so Towny to me, though. So great job! You had me fooled!

Yeah, when we worked the lynch over to you, I needed you to die or I was toast.

You should all note I did not lie in my claim.  There was a scum Roleblocker, and he did block Theorel.

[faust]

I'm curious, townies who bought vig shots--who were you going to kill?

I was going to shoot Voltaire. I had also thought of pps, but Voltaire acted really weird towards chairs. Well, it wouldn't have been one of my better decisions, but I think an additional flip would have helped town either way.

[Archetype]

Oh dang it! And I thought I was doing so well! I knew one of ashersky/BoxOfDog was scum, but I needed chairs' flip to figure out.

I was planning on buying a Vig tonight and....

If chairs flipped Town I would shoot BoxOfDog.

If chairs was scum I would shoot ashersky.

PPS was so Towny to me, though. So great job! You had me fooled!

Yeah, when we worked the lynch over to you, I needed you to die or I was toast.

D1 you buddied me a lot...until I proposed a chairs lynch. You constantly wanting a BoD lynch was really weird because you did that both D1 and D2. And chairs' lie was sooooo bad that I would've been very surprised if he hadn't turned up scum. But I also got really lucky rolling both a 6 and 5 on D1 and D2. Going into D3, though, I felt like I would have enough towncred (and possibly confirmed Town if you didn't have a Bulletproof) that I most likely would let everyone know that I would be rolling last or not at all so that I could use my power.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Awww man!! What happened? Is it because of what I did?? I was so happy about doing something right for once Didn't mean to crash the whole game.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

FWIW I was going to go after Voltaire next. I had a reasonably towny read on PPS and a null read on ash. So I think they still had a decent shot from where I stand.

I find this outcome to be incredibly unsatisfying.

[sudgy]

I'm thinking it might be because of the chairs hammer.

[Voltaire]

Awww man!! What happened? Is it because of what I did?? I was so happy about doing something right for once Didn't mean to crash the whole game.

This - why is the game over? Town derphammered someone, a vote count was wrong, but I feel like it's kind of an assumption on everyone's part to help out the mod by looking at those - I guess scum felt too damaged by it? That would be reasonable, I guess.

Jimmmmm, let us know why the game is over! 

[Voltaire]

Man, I need to listen to my gut more! I felt bad about PPS early D1 and then you had me convinced you were town. Like, as convinced as one can be without a mod result.

Ash on the other hand I was catching on to. You were just being too helpful! 

But I agree with everyone else - after I saw chairs's flip, I knew I would have to really work hard to avoid being the D3 lynch. I was essentially a VT at that point, too, as I had almost no dice left, a stored five, and nothin' else. I think this one may have actually been close - especially if I had been vigged tonight!

[WalrusMcFishSr]

I just read through the scum QT and I see their perspective. I want to make it clear that I don't blame the scum or mods or anybody for what happened, and I understand your point of view. Surely it was an awkward situation.

Can't help feeling unsatisfied though.

[Jimmmmm]

Jimmmmm, let us know why the game is over! 

It's in the scum QT. I tried to salvage the game but apparently it was unsalvageable.

[Voltaire]

For the record, I agree with yuma on this one. It's up to players to check vote counts as they happen. It sucks for scum the day went the way it did, but these things happen. I thought that we derplynched town, and I didn't mind.

[Voltgloss]

As my name was brought up in the mafia QT, I feel I should post my viewpoint.

First:  I was no more than a spectator in this game.  I was never a co-mod or backup mod and had no knowledge of the setup.

Second:  when Walrus posted about his vote being in the wrong place, I became curious and went back to recreate the vote history.  The vote at issue was, I think, just completely missed by the mods (it was buried at the end of a paragraph way over at the right side of the screen; however, it had the right boldface and syntax and so was a legitimate vote).  I then PM'd the mods as follows:

I took the liberty of looking over the Monster Madness vote history, and it is correct that chairs was lynched earlier this day.  (Because Walrus's move from Arch to chairs did not get recorded in the vote counts.)

Specifically, faust's vote on him at 10/25 3:59:43 am was the hammer.  The final vote setup at that time was:

Archetype (4): BoxOfDOG, pingpongsam, chairs, ashersky
chairs (7): Archetype, Jorbles, theorel, Walrus, Eevee, xeiron, faust
Eevee (1): Voltaire

Up to you guys how to handle.  If I were modding, I would lock the thread now, lynch chairs with the above vote count, and write off everything since faust's hammer vote as a very extended twilight.

I had no further discussion with the mods regarding the game.

Third:  there are two different mod decisions at play here:  the decision of how to resolve the lynch, and the decision to call the game.

On the decision of resolving the lynch, I support what the mods did.  As noted above, it's what I would have done.  The fact of the matter is that, at the time faust voted for chairs, there were 7 people whose votes were on chairs.  That's a lynch.  In my opinion, there is no getting around that.  And, if any other action had been taken (such as resetting the vote count and extending the day), the question would be "why did the mods do that instead of just processing the hammer?"  The rules need to apply equally regardless of players' alignment. 

On the decision to call the game:  I am not in a position to evaluate, nor is any player.  Only Jimmmmm and his comods could make the call as to whether the game was unsalvageable.  ash argued strenuously for that resolution in the Mafia QT - and arguing strenuously is what ash does best - but whether you agree with his position or not, it was ultimately the mods' decision.  ash had every right to argue for the rules interpretation that he did.  And Jimmmmm had every right to call the game upon deciding it was unsalvalgeable.

[Robz888]

For the record, I agree with yuma on this one. It's up to players to check vote counts as they happen. It sucks for scum the day went the way it did, but these things happen. I thought that we derplynched town, and I didn't mind.

I actually disagree, I don't think the players should be expected to count votes for themselves. If this situation arose again, and the mistake was caught BEFORE the flip, I would advocate resetting the game back to the point of the accidental vote and rescinding that vote, and letting things go from there.

[Voltaire]

But you can't go back - everyone is reacting with the vote counts they thought existed, and you can't erase that. So I say you have to roll with it (but I completely understanding why that is unsatisfying, but all other options are worse).

[Jimmmmm]

On the decision to call the game:  I am not in a position to evaluate, nor is any player.  Only Jimmmmm and his comods could make the call as to whether the game was unsalvageable.  ash argued strenuously for that resolution in the Mafia QT - and arguing strenuously is what ash does best - but whether you agree with his position or not, it was ultimately the mods' decision.  ash had every right to argue for the rules interpretation that he did.  And Jimmmmm had every right to call the game upon deciding it was unsalvalgeable.

For the record, this was not my call. I argued strongly to allow the game to continue. Mafia decided it was unsalvageable, and there was not terribly much I could do about it.

[Robz888]

But you can't go back - everyone is reacting with the vote counts they thought existed, and you can't erase that. So I say you have to roll with it (but I completely understanding why that is unsatisfying, but all other options are worse).

Well, yeah, you can't rescind the reactions, but you can rescind an accidental lynch if you haven't given the flip yet. I mean, the vote count is whatever the mod says it was, and you can't really go off something else. At least I don't think it's fair to. Just rescinding the lynch, while not ideal, seems like the option to me that causes the least harm.

[Voltaire]

For the record, this was not my call. I argued strongly to allow the game to continue. Mafia decided it was unsalvageable, and there was not terribly much I could do about it.

If that's the case, it sounds like mafia resigned.

[Voltgloss]

On the decision to call the game:  I am not in a position to evaluate, nor is any player.  Only Jimmmmm and his comods could make the call as to whether the game was unsalvageable.  ash argued strenuously for that resolution in the Mafia QT - and arguing strenuously is what ash does best - but whether you agree with his position or not, it was ultimately the mods' decision.  ash had every right to argue for the rules interpretation that he did.  And Jimmmmm had every right to call the game upon deciding it was unsalvalgeable.

For the record, this was not my call. I argued strongly to allow the game to continue. Mafia decided it was unsalvageable, and there was not terribly much I could do about it.

I disagree.  The decision was ultimately yours, and as mod, you need to own it. 

If a player says they will not play any further in a game, one option is to replace that player.  If a replacement cannot be found, you can decide then to call the game.  Or, if you think it best, you can decide to call a game without looking for a replacement.  But that choice is ultimately yours as mod.

Also, as I read the mafia QT, at the time you decided to call the game ash was saying to get pps's view first. 

I'm not saying your decision was right or wrong.  I'm saying the decision was yours.

[Voltgloss]

But you can't go back - everyone is reacting with the vote counts they thought existed, and you can't erase that. So I say you have to roll with it (but I completely understanding why that is unsatisfying, but all other options are worse).

Well, yeah, you can't rescind the reactions, but you can rescind an accidental lynch if you haven't given the flip yet. I mean, the vote count is whatever the mod says it was, and you can't really go off something else. At least I don't think it's fair to. Just rescinding the lynch, while not ideal, seems like the option to me that causes the least harm.

As mentioned above, I disagree with Robz here; but his position is a reasonable one.  I would suggest mods think about how they will resolve errors in votecounts going forward and add something to that effect in the rules for their games. 

[mail-mi]

I'm cursed.

Failed games I've modded or comodded:
NewMafia 3
Shadows over Camelot
This game.

Good games I've modded:
Nm4
Clue which I kinda sorta modded but didn't know players' alignments.

3:1.

Yeah, not too excited about how it turned out. But, what's done is done I suppose. Let's all go sign up for RMM11!

[Archetype]

I take Mafia wanting to end the game as a resignation, yes. If I was in ashersky's position I wouldn't want the game to be called off- just play as normal. It's difficult, sure, but mod errors happen and I think it's a player's responsibility to do the best they can to deal with them. And if they did end up losing, they can blame that on the delayed lynch or whatever. I don't think you should just call off the game.

[Galzria]

From my perspective, having run and played in many, many non-Mafia Forum games here that require significantly more mod work:

A) Players are responsible for knowing the gamestate at all time. It's the job of the mod to try and accurately and timely update the state of the game - however failure to do this does not alter the actual gamestate.

B) If a mistake is noticed prior to any significantly game changing information is revealed, an attempt to reset is usually made. I understand interactions have implications here, and players would wonder why the mod reset things. The simplest, and fairest way to explain it is "While it's your responsibility as players to be aware of the situation, we as mods recognize that you the players often take your queue's from us. We recognize that a mistake was made on our end that caused unintentional events to occur. We are resetting to the last vote count (properly updated), and you may choose how to proceed based on full and complete knowledge."

C) This is not ideal. Ideally mistakes aren't made. We've had plenty of mod mistakes in the past, and players have always striven to point out these mistakes as they see them. We try to be as forgiving as we can, while still recognizing that responsibility ultimately does rest with the players. And that brings me to

D) If the mistake is not caught until after critical information has been revealed, the mistake stands and the game moves forward. The fact is, Chairs was lynched. He received the proper number of votes to send the game to night. If any player is casting a vote, they are responsible for it. The player who cast the derphammer COULD have double checked that his vote wouldn't hammer. All of the information is in the game thread.

The fact is, a vote was cast based off an update given by the mod that was wrong. That doesn't change the actual gamestate, which at that time was a missed L-1 vote on Chairs. Mods do their best, but their only job is to update the gamestate, not set it. I DO think there's room to be forgiving with mistakes where possible. "Undoing" a lynch before a flip is within a mods range of choices (he isn't required to. The players messed up too). It's the one I would've pursued. But after the flip is made it should've stood. It was an accurate representation of what happened, even if what happened was unintentional.

[pingpongsam]

I was begrudgingly willing to play out the game only because I don't think it okay to stop playing just because I know I've lost. However, I do support Jimmmmm's decision because he effectively presented interference which directly contributed to the game reaching an inevitable conclusion.

As for players being responsible for votecounts; I think it presents some interesting edge cases wherein players can easily manipulate the perceived gamestate if moderator counts are not considered binding. That said, going forward I will personally be wholly reliant on my own counts as mod counts will be considered superflous posts of zero value whatsoever because, essentially, that is exactly what they are if they cannot be considered binding to the gamestate.

[Voltaire]

That said, going forward I will personally be wholly reliant on my own counts as mod counts will be considered superflous posts of zero value whatsoever because, essentially, that is exactly what they are if they cannot be considered binding to the gamestate.

People make mistakes! There's no need to treat vote counts as "superfluous".