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[LastFootnote]

Wait, are we not supposed to vote via PM?  Does that mean you didn't count my vote?

You usually vote by PM.  For this run-off, it will be in a poll rather than PM.  This is probably substantially less work for LastFootnote.

You are correct, sir.

Wero, I definitely counted your vote. I have the list of voters right here.

[Schneau]

Recycle
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card, setting it aside face down. At the start of your next turn, return the gained card to your hand and trash a card from your hand, gaining a card costing up to $1 more than that trashed card.

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but it's possible this card could be too good at quickly piling out Provinces ala Rebuild. I could see a strategy of getting a few of these, and a few Golds, and then Recycling Gold to Province and Province to Province. It's weaker than Rebuild in a few ways, since it won't always hit something and can't go Ducky->Province. But, if you get a Recycle and a Province in hand, you can at worst trash two of the Provinces that are in the supply by Recycling Province this turn and next. I could see a rush like this being OP, and not in a fun way.

EDIT: Even a $4 version of this card that just did a $1 Remodel twice might be too annoying at quickly draining the Provinces -- after you get one, when you pair them you can trash 2 Provinces in one play.

[eHalcyon]

Recycle
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card, setting it aside face down. At the start of your next turn, return the gained card to your hand and trash a card from your hand, gaining a card costing up to $1 more than that trashed card.

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but it's possible this card could be too good at quickly piling out Provinces ala Rebuild. I could see a strategy of getting a few of these, and a few Golds, and then Recycling Gold to Province and Province to Province. It's weaker than Rebuild in a few ways, since it won't always hit something and can't go Ducky->Province. But, if you get a Recycle and a Province in hand, you can at worst trash two of the Provinces that are in the supply by Recycling Province this turn and next. I could see a rush like this being OP, and not in a fun way.

EDIT: Even a $4 version of this card that just did a $1 Remodel twice might be too annoying at quickly draining the Provinces -- after you get one, when you pair them you can trash 2 Provinces in one play.

It was noted during discussion.  I think $1 and $1 would make the card a lot less interesting over all, and if the Province-piling is problematic then it doesn't fix it.  Someone proposed making the second turn an actual Upgrade (exactly $1 more) but I believe that this would be a buff overall because it lets you trash Copper freely.

I have a couple of suggestions though:

1. Make the FIRST turn a Governor (exactly $2 more).  This reduces some flexibility, most importantly Province->Province but also Estate->Silver (or $3 engine piece).  You can still Gold->Province and Province->Province on the second turn, but I think that's more an interesting gambit than anything broken (I don't think the original is broken either, but this is markedly less so).

2. Add "not a victory card" to one of the gains.  Adding it to the first turn would be the bigger nerf because then you can't get to Province without a $7 on the board.

Less related, another nerf would be to reverse the effects -- have it be an upgrade the first turn, remodel on the second turn.  This is a nerf because then you have fewer options as to what gained card to put into your next hand.

[eHalcyon]

Oh, also, if anyone is interested, Investment was posted in the forums before, and there is some discussion of it here.

[LastFootnote]

I think $1 and $1 would make the card a lot less interesting over all, and if the Province-piling is problematic then it doesn't fix it.  Someone proposed making the second turn an actual Upgrade (exactly $1 more) but I believe that this would be a buff overall because it lets you trash Copper freely.

I have a couple of suggestions though:

1. Make the FIRST turn a Governor (exactly $2 more).  This reduces some flexibility, most importantly Province->Province but also Estate->Silver (or $3 engine piece).  You can still Gold->Province and Province->Province on the second turn, but I think that's more an interesting gambit than anything broken (I don't think the original is broken either, but this is markedly less so).

2. Add "not a victory card" to one of the gains.  Adding it to the first turn would be the bigger nerf because then you can't get to Province without a $7 on the board.

As I mentioned, I made Dispatch because I loved Recycle's concept, but thought it was slightly too clunky. These changes would push it into very clunky territory. I always try to fix cards by making them simpler before making them more complex. The less similar Recycle's two remodel effects are to each other, the less elegant the card becomes.

Why do you think changing the effects to be the same (+$1) makes the card less interesting? I think it makes it far more compelling, especially if it means it can cost $4.

Less related, another nerf would be to reverse the effects -- have it be an upgrade the first turn, remodel on the second turn.  This is a nerf because then you have fewer options as to what gained card to put into your next hand.

It's also a buff because you're always able to use it to turn $5 cards into Provinces over two turns (Gold is always on the board).

[Robz888]

I don't really think Recycle is TOO strong as written, but just prohibit it from gaining Victory cards on the second round and I really think it's in quite good shape.

I do prefer it by a wide margin to Observatory. Observatory is fine, but sort of similar to Mortuary, and not all that seaside-y.

[GwinnR]

As there were not so many votes this time, what about extending the time you have to vote in the next round? The next contest seems to start 2 weeks after the last one. So we could extending the deadline until the next round starts. (Not this time for sure.) But so we have more time to think and discuss the votes and maybe playtesting some cards.

[eHalcyon]

I think $1 and $1 would make the card a lot less interesting over all, and if the Province-piling is problematic then it doesn't fix it.  Someone proposed making the second turn an actual Upgrade (exactly $1 more) but I believe that this would be a buff overall because it lets you trash Copper freely.

I have a couple of suggestions though:

1. Make the FIRST turn a Governor (exactly $2 more).  This reduces some flexibility, most importantly Province->Province but also Estate->Silver (or $3 engine piece).  You can still Gold->Province and Province->Province on the second turn, but I think that's more an interesting gambit than anything broken (I don't think the original is broken either, but this is markedly less so).

2. Add "not a victory card" to one of the gains.  Adding it to the first turn would be the bigger nerf because then you can't get to Province without a $7 on the board.

As I mentioned, I made Dispatch because I loved Recycle's concept, but thought it was slightly too clunky. These changes would push it into very clunky territory. I always try to fix cards by making them simpler before making them more complex. The less similar Recycle's two remodel effects are to each other, the less elegant the card becomes.

Why do you think changing the effects to be the same (+$1) makes the card less interesting? I think it makes it far more compelling, especially if it means it can cost $4.

Less related, another nerf would be to reverse the effects -- have it be an upgrade the first turn, remodel on the second turn.  This is a nerf because then you have fewer options as to what gained card to put into your next hand.

It's also a buff because you're always able to use it to turn $5 cards into Provinces over two turns (Gold is always on the board).

Hmm, maybe you are right.  Definitely right about how reversing turns could be a buff, whoops.

I find $1/$1 less interesting because I like it as an Expand over two turns, vs. Remodel over two turns.  But I suppose it could work.

[LastFootnote]

On a whim, I think I'll unilaterally break the rules and out the creators of Recycle (yuma), and Observatory (Archetype), trusting that neither one's star power is going to influence you voters out there. I'm doing this because I'd really like to hear what they have to say about their cards. There may be something we're missing about one or both of them.

Congrats to both of you, by the way, for making it into the final showdown!

[LastFootnote]

As there were not so many votes this time, what about extending the time you have to vote in the next round? The next contest seems to start 2 weeks after the last one. So we could extending the deadline until the next round starts. (Not this time for sure.) But so we have more time to think and discuss the votes and maybe playtesting some cards.

I'm seriously considering some sort of two-round vote. Sort of like this except with more than two cards in the second round. That way the discussion can be more focused and playtesting is at least more likely.

[SirPeebles]

As there were not so many votes this time, what about extending the time you have to vote in the next round? The next contest seems to start 2 weeks after the last one. So we could extending the deadline until the next round starts. (Not this time for sure.) But so we have more time to think and discuss the votes and maybe playtesting some cards.

I'm seriously considering some sort of two-round vote. Sort of like this except with more than two cards in the second round. That way the discussion can be more focused and playtesting is at least more likely.

I haven't wanted to suggest this because it would be more work for you, but it is really draining trying to give serious consideration to 50 cards.  I sort of feel bad when someone like Showdown or Minotaur tosses up a few fan cards on a whim and they get orders of magnitude more consideration than some of the submissions to this contest.  But sometimes going through these lists I'm just looking for an excuse to reject cards so as to narrow the field.

Is there any way to use the poll feature here to implement approval voting?  It seems like it would be way, way easier for you if that voting/tallying were automated.

[dghunter79]

I find $1/$1 less interesting because I like it as an Expand over two turns, vs. Remodel over two turns.  But I suppose it could work.

But Expand costs 7!  Expand-over-two-turns is sometimes worse than Expand, but it's flexibility makes it often better.  I just don't see how it can cost 5.

I like it much more as a 1-and-1 costing $4, though.

[eHalcyon]

I find $1/$1 less interesting because I like it as an Expand over two turns, vs. Remodel over two turns.  But I suppose it could work.

But Expand costs 7!  Expand-over-two-turns is sometimes worse than Expand, but it's flexibility makes it often better.  I just don't see how it can cost 5.

I like it much more as a 1-and-1 costing $4, though.

That's been discussed though.  In my commentary, I've noted potential that it's too powerful but there ARE ways that Expand is better, and tweaks that can be made to create more of a difference.

I think it can cost $5 because it doesn't eclipse Expand and I don't think it would even be a top $5.  Inability to do $5->Province without a $7 on board is significant.

[jamespotter]

I'm with Sir Peebles on this one. I obviously don't want to make any more work for you, LastFootnote, but if there were an approval voting before a final vote, maybe with 5 to 10 winners in the pool, it would make it so much easier to read comment, vote, etc.

EDIT: Sorry, meant to quote and can't figure out how to do it retrospectively.

[ta56636]

Oh, also, if anyone is interested, Investment was posted in the forums before, and there is some discussion of it here.

So - does it stack now?  Have you tested it that way?

[Nic]

It was noted during discussion.  I think $1 and $1 would make the card a lot less interesting over all, and if the Province-piling is problematic then it doesn't fix it.  Someone proposed making the second turn an actual Upgrade (exactly $1 more) but I believe that this would be a buff overall because it lets you trash Copper freely.

I have a couple of suggestions though:

1. Make the FIRST turn a Governor (exactly $2 more).  This reduces some flexibility, most importantly Province->Province but also Estate->Silver (or $3 engine piece).  You can still Gold->Province and Province->Province on the second turn, but I think that's more an interesting gambit than anything broken (I don't think the original is broken either, but this is markedly less so).

2. Add "not a victory card" to one of the gains.  Adding it to the first turn would be the bigger nerf because then you can't get to Province without a $7 on the board.

Less related, another nerf would be to reverse the effects -- have it be an upgrade the first turn, remodel on the second turn.  This is a nerf because then you have fewer options as to what gained card to put into your next hand.

Of all the suggestions, I still think second turn Upgrade is the best. The most important part of a Remodel rush (at least in Base Set games) is trashing Provinces out of the supply as soon as you have a lead, and that requires you to play a terminal action on each turn, and to match up the cards on both turns. Getting a guaranteed Gold->Province->Province by playing a single action is too powerful, and that's what needs to be nerfed. If the possibility of trashing Copper on the second turn is OP, then we just boost the cost to $6.

My second choice would be the $4 option, because you wouldn't be able to gain Provinces and pile them out with the same play of the card.

[eHalcyon]

Oh, also, if anyone is interested, Investment was posted in the forums before, and there is some discussion of it here.

So - does it stack now?  Have you tested it that way?

The one that was submitted clearly stacks.  The one posted back then does not.  I haven't tested it, but the creator (LF) might have.  rinkworks' test results for the original are pretty interesting and I don't think allowing it to stack really changes the balance.  Yeah you can turn a cantrip into a Peddler into a Grand Market, but the opportunity cost for the second investment is much bigger (you're even closer to late game when time is running out, and the card you sacrifice to the mat is better than the card sacrificed the first time).

[LastFootnote]

Oh, also, if anyone is interested, Investment was posted in the forums before, and there is some discussion of it here.

So - does it stack now?  Have you tested it that way?

Yes and no, respectively.

[Archetype]

Yeah I think it would have to be $3.

I forgot to vote! If I had, Recycle would have won. Sorry, Recycle designer.

I like Recycle more but Observatory is cool too. But you shouldn't vote for it just because of the cost because that's likely to change.

Edit: but LF thinks it's too weak at any cost, so who knows...

I forgot to vote for Observatory! So it would've been tied again

[Guy Srinivasan]

I voted for Recycle but not Observatory.

Recycle is too powerful. As written, it's a slightly-worse Remodel that also has "when you gain this, gain a card that reads 'Lab, then Upgrade, but you can't get rid of Coppers/Curses this way'".

That's too good.

What about "at the start of your cleanup phase, put the gained card on top of your deck"? That makes it Remodel + Upgrade rather than Remodel+Lab+Upgrade. Or is that too big a nerf?

[scott_pilgrim]

Recycle is too powerful. As written, it's a slightly-worse Remodel that also has "when you gain this, gain a card that reads 'Lab, then Upgrade, but you can't get rid of Coppers/Curses this way'".

But this comparison isn't helpful at all in determining the power-level of the card.  Like, I don't know off the top of my head how much "slightly worse" is, or how good an Upgrade that can't get rid of Coppers/Curses is.

By "slightly worse", I'm guessing you're referring to the fact that it misses the shuffle more often?  That's a pretty big deal.  And an Upgrade that can't trash Coppers/Curses is pretty weak I think.  Also note that this hypotheical Lab/Upgrade card also misses the re-shuffle more often than a non-duration version of it.

I mean, I'm also worried that it's too powerful, but I don't see the need to compare it to some other hypothetical card whose power level we know nothing about.

[markusin]

I voted for Recycle but not Observatory.

Seaside isn't big on gainers, but a Remodeler is a nice middle ground. I like the card into your hand bit of Recycle. I don't know how to fix the Province pile-out issues, but giving the first turn remodel an "exactly" clause seems like it could work well.

Observatory, well, it just seems like a nerfed Appentice, though I suspect that non-terminal trashing for $2 is quite strong on its own.

I also liked Dispatch, as it seemed to have been worded carefully to reduce tracking issues as much as possible.

If it matters to anyone, sorry for not providing my input on the Seaside cards earlier. The combination of my workload and my state of health gave me no time to do so (at least when I was in the mood for it).

[yuma]

I generally don't participate in fan card discussion, I like thinking about new ideas and concepts, but generally the discussions are often a bit over my head but since Lastfootnote requested some commentary from the author I thought I might oblige him. Despite this being my card, I have actually learned a lot more from the discussion about it than anything I thought of when actually developing it.

Recycle
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card, setting it aside face down. At the start of your next turn, return the gained card to your hand and trash a card from your hand, gaining a card costing up to $1 more than that trashed card.

So the basic idea I had behind this card was thus:

1. There isn't a Duration trasher, how can I make a duration that trashes

2. The obvious answer is to obtain the trashed card next turn; but the card still needs to do something next turn as well.

3. The next question was how to have cards gained. Thus the remodel/remake question. I tinkered with both and originally submitted the card with remake like trashing ("exactly"), but ultimately changed it to remodeling to allow for greater flexibility.

4. The next question was the amount of teching up the card would allow. $1/$1? $2/$2? $1/$2? $2/$1 were the options I considered. 1/1 is certainly possible. But ultimately it wasn't my favorite. Mostly because when I originally addressed this card it was with the intent to get coppers into $3 cost cards. Maybe that wasn't the right way to approach it, but I feel that would be the basic utility of the card, clearing coppers into $3 cards and estates into $5, but that it would take 2 turns to do it. 1 2/2 is obviously way too strong. $4 can become provinces. No dice. 1/2 I think is also too strong as $5 cards can become provinces without $7 cards because a $5 can become a $6 gold which can become a $8 province. So that wouldn't work. $2/$1 I felt was the right call.

(I feel like most of the discussion around the gaining of provinces is perhaps a bit overblown? I think that conversation misses the point of the card, or maybe I am just not realizing the cards full potential. There are four other cards that allow teching up by $3 that I can remember (pretty sure there aren't any others). 1. Expand 2. Mine 3. Graverobber 4. Rebuild. Oh... and 5. Butcher I guess can as well...

Obviously this card is quite similar to Expand. The major differences are the price differences ($5 to $7) and the flexibility this card offers in potentially trashing 2 cards. Perhaps it is that I don't generally use Expand as a Province gainer (I often do, but I dont' think of that as Expand's primary purpose... I see it more as a way to get estates into $5 cards and then into Provinces if it fits into my game plan) To obtain a province you have to have expand (hard to do early due to its cost) and a $5 card in hand.

Mine is also similar, but again, different. If you are using recycle to tech up coppers into silvers, you are probably doing it wrong, the same way that Expand shouldn't be used that way. Obviously, you can't gain Provinces with Mine.

Graverobber I have never quite figured out how to play. I generally use it to trash action cards into provinces. So I wonder if this is where we should be looking to compare recycle's ability to gain provinces as opposed to looking at expand. Graverobber is only capable of obtaining a province if you have a graverobber and a $5 action card in hand. Recycle is only capable of obtaining a province if you have a recycle and a $5 card in hand as well as a $7 card in the kingdom.

Rebuild is also a very different situation. The plus action allows you to play multiple a turn and doesn't require you to have the trashed card in hand.

Butcher again is a very different situation as it involves tokens.


So basically what I am saying, is that I am kinda a fan of the card the way it is. What can I say I am biased. I feel that it is stronger than expand, but perhaps not overly so. I wonder if that power difference is worth it missing the reshuffle and being played less? I guess I am open to some of the nerfs, but ultimately I think they change the original intent of the card. But like I said many of the players here seem to have a better grasp of balancing issues and might better come up with ways to balance the card that I might not be as apt to see. But very glad people liked the card...

[Archetype]

Well, I'll follow suit and talk about Observatory.

Observatory
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Look at one card from your deck per $ in its cost. You may put one of them into your hand and discard any number of the others. Put the rest back in any order.

This was posted a long time ago in this thread under the same name. I didn't know what card to submit to the contest, but eHalc reminded me of this card when he suggested the title 'Observatory' if people needed help naming their cards. It was Seaside-y enough, so I thought I'd submit it.

It is intended to be just like Salvager and Apprentice by trashing for benefit, but this does it in a very different way. The first obvious use is to trash Estates early game to put the best of 2 cards into your hand and then decide to leave the other card on top to improve your next turn, or discard it if it'll just get in the way. It can also trash higher costing cards to pull of a couple of tricks. Since it gives +1 Action, you can trash a higher costing card, arrange the top cards of your deck so you put some needed cards near the top, pitch anything you don't need, and then play a drawing card to put the cards you want into your hand.

The obvious 'real card comparison' is to Cartographer. It can function fairly similarly, but with the added bonuses of being able to trash a card, set your own range of cards to pull from, and of course pulling key cards into your hand.

People have said that this card is too weak, others have said that it is too strong. Which makes me think that it is just right. When you use it to pull cards, it's bad on cheap cards, but great on higher costing cards. But when you use it to reorder, it is really good on cheap cards, but pretty sucky on expensive cards. Either way, non terminal trashing is good. But depending on the game, one of these two uses may outshine the other. I think that in a game when you can use both well, this card will be a blast.


Potential changes: I considered adding 'You may trash one of the cards' and then bumping up the price. It made it less niche which I didn't really like, so I sent it as-is. If this card ends up needing a little extra boost, I wouldn't mind adding that clause in.

[scott_pilgrim]

Observatory, well, it just seems like a nerfed Appentice, though I suspect that non-terminal trashing for $2 is quite strong on its own.

I doubt that it will feel any more like a nerfed Apprentice than Smithy feels like a nerfed Torturer.  Sure, its effect is strictly worse than Apprentice, but it's much cheaper, and it plays out very differently.  You can only open Apprentice 1/6 of the time, but you can always open Observatory, so you can get started on the trashing right away.  In the end game, you can't use Observatory to explode into a megaturn, which is one of the things that makes Apprentice so great.  But you can use it to trash a good card to set up your next turn, which is what I think makes it such a cool card.  Let me elaborate.

The other non-Remodel-type scaling TfB cards in Dominion are Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, and Trader.  (For now I'm defining Remodel-type cards as cards which gain card(s) based on the cost of the trashed card(s), so that includes things like Forge and Stonemason.)  All of these except Trader (as well as most Remodel-type scaling TfB cards) like for you to kill your powerful cards in order to get an immediate bonus when you know the game is ending soon.  That's a great, fun, and interesting mechanic, but we already have a nice share of cards that do that.  Observatory gives you a decent bonus for trashing good cards, but it's still not really anything to write home about, and I think that will take quite a bit of finesse to use properly.  I imagine that cases in which it is worthwhile to trash a good card in order to stack your next turn will not be rare, but they will also not be nearly as common as with Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, and Remodelers.  I can see clearing two green cards from your next hand at the cost of a $5 card that's losing its utility making the difference from a Duchy hand to a Province hand, so I don't think the scaling aspect is useless above $2 as others have suggested.