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Author Topic: Adjective Order  (Read 27135 times)

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Polk5440

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2013, 02:00:40 pm »
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It's too confusing. Let's just stop using "the."
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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2013, 03:04:50 pm »
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I was taught that articles are a weird category of adjectives, and while you clump them with adjectives, need to be treated differently.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

AJD

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2013, 04:19:31 pm »
+2

I was taught that articles are a weird category of adjectives, and while you clump them with adjectives, need to be treated differently.

That's basically like treating whales as a weird category of fish: the reason you need to treat them differently is because grouping them in that category was a mistake in the first place, according to the scientific criteria which are most useful for establishing classes of (words/species).
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ehunt

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2013, 02:39:18 pm »
+1

Here's one:

Say

Feet/feed
Peace/peas
Late/laid
Beck/beg
Knack/nag

In each case there are two orak clues that the words are distinct: the final consonant changes from voiceless to voiced and the vowel sound lasts longer. Only one of these is spelled.
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Grujah

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2013, 07:06:34 pm »
0

Here's one:

Say

Feet/feed
Peace/peas
Late/laid
Beck/beg
Knack/nag

In each case there are two orak clues that the words are distinct: the final consonant changes from voiceless to voiced and the vowel sound lasts longer. Only one of these is spelled.

Gotta say this reminded me of:
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ipofanes

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2013, 05:37:02 am »
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German has some of this. There's a specific order for things like time, place, and manner. I forget though what the order is.

Are you sure you don't mix up adjectives with adverbs here?

As a German native speaker, the rule never occurred to me but  think it's stricter on attributal than on adverbial adjectives. That is to say: "der rosa große Elefant" would be highly unusual to the extent of being plain wrong, when compared with "der große rosa Elefant". Whereas "ich habe auf meinem Zimmer gestern nachgedacht" is a bit less usual than "ich habe gestern auf meinem Zimmer nachgedacht" but more a matter of stressing location or time.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2013, 12:37:42 am »
+2

I just watched the video Grujah posted, and I couldn't understand either of them.
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AHoppy

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2013, 10:27:05 am »
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I'm suprised nobody has mentioned this yet:
I am taking french now and we learned that there is an adjective order (or at least, somewhat)
Words that have to do with beauty, age, goodness and size all come before the noun.  Other adjectives come after.  At least, that's the way I have been taught

Teproc

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2013, 07:29:31 am »
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I guess that's true to an extent, but the way I would formulate that rule would be that most subjective qualities come before the noun (which is a more general rule that what you said), and more objective and descriptive adjectives come after. So here, you would probably say "Le grand vieil homme français" (The tall old man French).

That being said, it's not really a rule. In fact, the example still sounds somewhat uncomfortable to me, because "grand" and "homme" actually are kind of an exception. It's ok here because there's another adjective between them, but "grand homme" definitely doesn't mean the same thing as "homme grand". The first one means "great man", the second one means "tall man". You might say that this goes pretty well with the general rule, except it doesn't work with, say, woman. "grande femme" or "femme grande" mean the same thing. I mean, you could use "grande femme" in a context where you obviously want to mean "great" by mirroring the masculin idiom, but you would need some context for it to be understood in that way.

I guess, going back to the example, that you could argue that "tall" falls into the objective half, but "Le vieil homme grand français" or "Le vieil homme français grand" both sound wrong. You might say "Le vieil homme français, qui est grand" (i.e. "The old French man, who is tall"), but that's a big long-winded.

Basically : there is a guideline, but as always in French, half of the cases you'll find yourself in might be arcane exceptions to the rule.

Which puts French in a similar position to that of English I think. Mostly, some orders sound "right" or "wrong", and it's gonna be hard to tell them apart if you're just learning the language.
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AHoppy

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2013, 07:46:41 am »
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Exactly the problems I'm having with learning French :P It's like English, where there are a lot of exceptions to the rules (at least, it feels that way to me) but then you throw gender on top of that, and my little English-speaking brain doesn't have any idea what is going on... 

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2013, 11:33:04 am »
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Exactly the problems I'm having with learning French :P It's like English, where there are a lot of exceptions to the rules (at least, it feels that way to me) but then you throw gender on top of that, and my little English-speaking brain doesn't have any idea what is going on... 

Oh yeah, French is a mess, probably the hardest language to learn (among European languages, obviously I assume Chinese or Arabic are more difficult).

And it's not you, there really are exceptions everywhere. For example, you have to, as a child, learn a laundry list of nouns ending in -al that don't become -aux in plural form, rather -als (Bal, Festival, Carnaval, Chacal... and others that I've since forgotten). Same for words in -ou that become -oux rather than -ous in plural, and I could go on.

The gender thing is not specific to French (German is even worse, as it has a neutral gender), but French has those numerous incoherences that make it worse ...

But, you know, good luck learning it  ;D
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AHoppy

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2013, 11:38:12 am »
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Hahah thanks.  I took 2 years of German in high school, and I actually found the gender things easier than french.  In German, as I recall, you really only had to change "the" or "one" depending on the gender.  French, you change adjectives based on gender and it just seems like there is a lot more that it affects than in German.  Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I'm just more confused because I know some German, but that has probably been one of the hardest things.

pingpongsam

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2013, 12:52:29 pm »
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Somewhere on slashdot, many years ago there was a topic about this sort of thing and someone wrote that the meaning of the sentence, "I am going to assassinate the president" ever so slightly changes when emphasis is placed on the different words. The exercise was to repeat the sentence placing emphasis on each successive word for each respective repetition. So, there I was, in my cube at work repeating in various ways the above sentence.

That adjective ordering can change the meaning or perceived meaning of a sentence is functionally the same as changing the intent of a sentence by altering which words are stressed. My French speaking friend was absolutely mystified when I explained this phenomenon to him. Apparently, at least in French, the stress of a word is irrelevant to the overall function of that word in the sentence.

For a safer sentence to repeat out loud try "That pizza tasted good".
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Teproc

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2013, 01:03:42 pm »
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Well, surely it doesn't really change the meaning, just puts a different emphasis, right ? As in :
- THAT pizza tasted good (emphasizing the uniqueness of the pizza)
- That PIZZA tasted good (emphasizing the fact that it's a pizza, not some other piece of the meal)
- That pizza tasted GOOD (emphasizing that is tasted really good)

I have to admit that I'm somewhat confused here. Emphasis of course exists in French, as in any language I'd assume, but I fail to see how it would actually change the core meaning of the sentence ? Right ?
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sudgy

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2013, 01:13:15 pm »
+1

Well, surely it doesn't really change the meaning, just puts a different emphasis, right ? As in :
- THAT pizza tasted good (emphasizing the uniqueness of the pizza)
- That PIZZA tasted good (emphasizing the fact that it's a pizza, not some other piece of the meal)
- That pizza tasted GOOD (emphasizing that is tasted really good)

I have to admit that I'm somewhat confused here. Emphasis of course exists in French, as in any language I'd assume, but I fail to see how it would actually change the core meaning of the sentence ? Right ?

"That pizza TASTED good" implies that there was something else wrong with the pizza, while all the others don't.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Polk5440

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2013, 01:38:02 pm »
+2

"I didn't say you stole my money."

Try the above emphasis exercise on that sentence.
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pingpongsam

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2013, 01:40:55 pm »
0

Well, surely it doesn't really change the meaning, just puts a different emphasis, right ? As in :
- THAT pizza tasted good (emphasizing the uniqueness of the pizza)
- That PIZZA tasted good (emphasizing the fact that it's a pizza, not some other piece of the meal)
- That pizza tasted GOOD (emphasizing that is tasted really good)

I have to admit that I'm somewhat confused here. Emphasis of course exists in French, as in any language I'd assume, but I fail to see how it would actually change the core meaning of the sentence ? Right ?

THAT implies maybe there was other pizza that wasn't as good. It emphasizes a specific subset of possible pizzas for reference.
PIZZA implies that it is specifically the pizza amongst other possible things that were tasted that tasted good.
TASTED implies that the taste may not have represented the whole of the experience. Maybe I ate so much of it I got a stomach ache or maybe I am allergic to some ingredient but ate it anyway because of the taste. Maybe the pizza was inordinately expensive.
GOOD emphasizes the traditional meaning of this sentence were there no emphasis placed elsewhere. It could imply that a stronger word than good may have been more appropriate to use in this instance.

In any of the instances above a message is conveyed that is either not clearly conveyed without the emphasis or that simply cannot be conveyed in that sentence alone without the emphasis. In general, the emphasis requires the listener to have participated in some degree in the events surrounding the statement so that emphasis bears a metadata context. It is in this way that the method of communication is clearly superior than simply the means. That is, words alone are perfunctory while delivery is more crucial.
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theory

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2013, 01:42:00 pm »
+1

Well, surely it doesn't really change the meaning, just puts a different emphasis, right ? As in :
- THAT pizza tasted good (emphasizing the uniqueness of the pizza)
- That PIZZA tasted good (emphasizing the fact that it's a pizza, not some other piece of the meal)
- That pizza tasted GOOD (emphasizing that is tasted really good)

I have to admit that I'm somewhat confused here. Emphasis of course exists in French, as in any language I'd assume, but I fail to see how it would actually change the core meaning of the sentence ? Right ?

You're almost there.  "THAT pizza tasted good" means that another pizza did not taste good.  "That PIZZA tasted good" means that something other than the pizza did not taste good.

An analogous concept is the placement of the adjective "only":

Quote
    You have been entrusted to feed your neighbor’s dog for a week while he (the neighbor) is out of town. The neighbor returns home; something has gone awry; you are questioned.

    “I fed the dog.”

    “Did you feed the parakeet?”

    “I fed ONLY the dog.”

    “Did anyone else feed the dog?”

    “ONLY I fed the dog.”

    “Did you fondle/molest the dog?”

    “I ONLY fed the dog!”
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Polk5440

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2013, 01:46:07 pm »
0

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eHalcyon

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2013, 03:47:17 pm »
+1

Exactly the problems I'm having with learning French :P It's like English, where there are a lot of exceptions to the rules (at least, it feels that way to me) but then you throw gender on top of that, and my little English-speaking brain doesn't have any idea what is going on... 

Oh yeah, French is a mess, probably the hardest language to learn (among European languages, obviously I assume Chinese or Arabic are more difficult).

And it's not you, there really are exceptions everywhere. For example, you have to, as a child, learn a laundry list of nouns ending in -al that don't become -aux in plural form, rather -als (Bal, Festival, Carnaval, Chacal... and others that I've since forgotten). Same for words in -ou that become -oux rather than -ous in plural, and I could go on.

The gender thing is not specific to French (German is even worse, as it has a neutral gender), but French has those numerous incoherences that make it worse ...

But, you know, good luck learning it  ;D

My first language was technically Cantonese, but my primary language is English.  I usually think in English, and though I am capable of conversing in Cantonese, there are many topics in which I am unable to communicate effectively (and I'm also Chinese illiterate).  I took French from grades 7-12 and I barely remember any of it.

I'm pretty sure English is harder to learn than French.  French has exceptions, but it is, for the most part, very structured.  It just doesn't feel that way to native English speakers, but English is just a disaster.  I mean, have you ever tried reading The Chaos?  I think I can get through most of it, but seriously -- English is lunacy.

As far as writing goes, French was difficult for me because I had trouble remembering all the conjugations.  But there are rules and relatively few exceptions to them.  Speaking French should be simpler because many things are pronounced the same, and native speakers will often take shortcuts (e.g. I think, at least in some places, Francophones will drop the "ne" in negative phrases, since the "pas" is enough to get the meaning across).  English is confusing all around.  Cantonese... well, reading/writing is tough because of the lack of an alphabet.  With English, at least you can muddle through. :P
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soulnet

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2013, 04:13:33 pm »
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I'm pretty sure English is harder to learn than French.  French has exceptions, but it is, for the most part, very structured.  It just doesn't feel that way to native English speakers, but English is just a disaster.  I mean, have you ever tried reading The Chaos?  I think I can get through most of it, but seriously -- English is lunacy.

As far as writing goes, French was difficult for me because I had trouble remembering all the conjugations.  But there are rules and relatively few exceptions to them.  Speaking French should be simpler because many things are pronounced the same, and native speakers will often take shortcuts (e.g. I think, at least in some places, Francophones will drop the "ne" in negative phrases, since the "pas" is enough to get the meaning across).  English is confusing all around.  Cantonese... well, reading/writing is tough because of the lack of an alphabet.  With English, at least you can muddle through. :P

I strongly disagree. MAYBE pronouncing English while reading is harder than doing the same in French for non-advanced speakers, because French pronunciation is closer to its writing. But everything else is worse in French. I learned both as second languages (well, only starting with French, but still remember what it was starting English). English has a LOT less words to learn than French. Even if its pronunciation makes less sense relative to its writing, it still feels like there is a shorter list of things you have to know by heart. French has LOTS of cases and English only has a few. Also, English has more variations around the world (British, US, Australian, Indian, just to name a few) that people is used to mispronunciation, to the point that I would say that lots of rules are flexible in practice. In French, some slight  mispronouncing may make the other person not understand.
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Awaclus

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2013, 04:20:39 pm »
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Oh yeah, French is a mess, probably the hardest language to learn (among European languages, obviously I assume Chinese or Arabic are more difficult).
It depends on the person learning the language. French is an Indo-European language, so it's still probably easier to learn than any of the Uralic languages in Europe for someone who's speaking an Indo-European language as their first language. And you're correct in assuming that Chinese and Arabic are more difficult for someone who's speaking an Indo-European language, but for someone speaking an Afroasiatic language, Arabic is relatively easy.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2013, 05:38:31 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure English is harder to learn than French.  French has exceptions, but it is, for the most part, very structured.  It just doesn't feel that way to native English speakers, but English is just a disaster.  I mean, have you ever tried reading The Chaos?  I think I can get through most of it, but seriously -- English is lunacy.

As far as writing goes, French was difficult for me because I had trouble remembering all the conjugations.  But there are rules and relatively few exceptions to them.  Speaking French should be simpler because many things are pronounced the same, and native speakers will often take shortcuts (e.g. I think, at least in some places, Francophones will drop the "ne" in negative phrases, since the "pas" is enough to get the meaning across).  English is confusing all around.  Cantonese... well, reading/writing is tough because of the lack of an alphabet.  With English, at least you can muddle through. :P

I strongly disagree. MAYBE pronouncing English while reading is harder than doing the same in French for non-advanced speakers, because French pronunciation is closer to its writing. But everything else is worse in French. I learned both as second languages (well, only starting with French, but still remember what it was starting English). English has a LOT less words to learn than French. Even if its pronunciation makes less sense relative to its writing, it still feels like there is a shorter list of things you have to know by heart. French has LOTS of cases and English only has a few. Also, English has more variations around the world (British, US, Australian, Indian, just to name a few) that people is used to mispronunciation, to the point that I would say that lots of rules are flexible in practice. In French, some slight  mispronouncing may make the other person not understand.

Fair enough.  Perhaps it is easier to get by with poor English.  But the fact that people can understand English even with mistakes is not a testament that it's easier to learn. :P
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Polk5440

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Re: Adjective Order
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2013, 06:05:25 pm »
0

I mean, have you ever tried reading The Chaos?  I think I can get through most of it, but seriously -- English is lunacy.

That's a fun poem.

I am so glad hiccough is now usually spelled hiccup. Is there any other word in the English language where "ough" is pronounced "up"?
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