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[theorel]

Hmm...reading back I think I was actually arguing on reasons of xerxes' vote.  i.e. I don't think scum would have pushed this lynch in a scummy fashion, because it wasn't likely to go through.  Which led to conjecture as to what would be a scummy way to act towards it.

Anyways, looking back the following players interacted in some fashion:
TA (first vote)
yuma (second vote, added a couple quotes)
mail-mi: descriptive of the OMGUSRVS stuff.
nkribit: quasi-defense (i.e. states that the reasons for the vote read neutral to him)
ash (third vote, adds the comment that sudgy is copying his meta)
Eevee (fourth vote...frustration + believable scum-narrative)
Xerxes: counter-vote on TA.

Theorel: derailed the conversation (sorry about that; to be fair, I'm also the one that tried to re-rail it)

So, people who opposed the sudgy-wagon directly: nkirbit, Xerxes.
People who opposed the sudgy-wagon indirectly: mail-mi, myself.
People who ignored the sudgy-wagon everyone not mentioned above, initially myself also.

I would argue that nkirbit most closely resembles my proposed scum-narrative.  Xerxes also looks scummy for opposing the wagon AND simultaneously pushing suspicion in a different direction.  OTOH, that could be new-player caused rather than scum-caused.  As a new-player I'm not sure how to read the action...it seems too clumsy for scum-play?  But new-scum might end up being clumsy.  Anyways, it weighs in less for that.

Okay, so re-read nkirbit...
He also: does some probability arguing (I don't understand the "haven't done theater" comment, is it relevant?), pushes ash to claim instead of implying his claim, and points out the huge flaw in follow-the-cop (i.e. ROLEBLOCKER).
That last one is definitely pro-town.  Scum could have waited until a cop unwisely claimed.  They could have jumped on it early for town-cred, but it seems more likely they'd hesitate.

Meh, I'm going to vote: nkirbit anyways, and see what happens (maybe it'll result in my having a vote on nkirbit?  Ha, I made the joke before you could)

[sudgy]

I see your reasons for voting nkirbit and almost voted him (it's better than most things at this point), but, I'm keeping my vote on Robz until he answers my question.

[yuma]

I see your reasons for voting nkirbit and almost voted him (it's better than most things at this point), but, I'm keeping my vote on Robz until he answers my question.

How bout you answer my question first...

[yuma]

for reference...

I thought the wagon on TA was still RVS too...

why would you think this?

my vote:

I just think that a vig should make this decision for themselves. They would have more information, and would be able to make a more informed decision.

Still scummy.

To clarify, they don't have more information, and I do agree with anti-vig folks that the risk/reward scenario generally favors anti-town folks, so scum will make arguments like TA's to not discourage while not encouraging Vigs.

is something of a sheep of ashersky's explanation. My vote is obviously not a joke and ash's analysis is very serious in tone

vote: ta

ash's vote:

Ok, we are talking about different things here. I am talking about the Vig individually having more knowledge of the setup, while you are talking about all of us having more knowledge (ie on the existence of a SK). I agree that your plan will let us know the existence of a SK, but I honestly think we will know that sooner or later. There's also the possibilities of a kill getting blocked, doctored, etc., so we wouldn't know for certain, so the plan isn't good.

Odds are, there won't be a vig shot, given the community census about N1 vig shots. But I don't think we should completely take that option away from the vig. The vig will know better on whether or not he should shoot N1 than we will, especially this early in the day.

But why would set-up knowledge help th vig when he's deciding who to kill?  That's the fallacy of your argument, and continuing to push it is scummy.

vote: TA if I wasn't already.

ash's vote here is obviously not RVS either, it continues on the line of thought that he had previously (mentioned above) and is of a serious nature...

neither are RVS at all....

I still don't like Robz's stance on ashersky. But I think I am more inclined to vote for sudgy. vote: sudgy Theorel, this is a real wagon, sometimes you can get a wagon on someone pretty early in a game. Winterspartan in Samuri's and Ninjas for example...

[nkirbit]

Theorel: theater = "the math", I was phone posting and it autocorrected to that, I guess.

As for Sudgy.. I guess he could be scum trying to emulate Ash's town play here, but again, I don't see why that's more likely to come from scum!Sudgy than town!Sudgy.  Town!Sudgy gets mislynched a lot, so he has every reason to try and emulate the behavior of a player who doesn't get lynched as town that often... and Ash doesn't get lynched often as town.

Or, to put it simpler: sudgy is trying to pull an ashersky, but it's so out of character for him that it isn't going to work.

vote: sudgy

Look, I agree that it's out of character for him, but it's equally out of character for town him and scum him.  I don't see how "Sudgy is acting differently than he normally does" is indicative of Sudgy being scum.

Keep in mind that Sudgy is a player who gets constantly mislynched as town.  Given that, I think it's somewhat reasonable to try and emulate the town play of another player, even as town.  That's not necessarily a scum thing.

[sudgy]

Just so you guys know, I wasn't even thinking of trying to play like ash.

[nkirbit]

I'm serious, I saw it being discussed, but couldn't find the initial post.

Well vote: Ash then.

What do you make of the point that it's a claim that, if he's scum, is guaranteed to get him found out?

Multiple people have made posts like this, but I want to re-iterate that this is simply untrue.

If Ashersky were on a mafia team of two members, he knows, 100% of the time, there is no 1-shot doctor in the game.  This is because there would be at least 5 T's in the game, leaving only two town PR rolls.  One of them was an "M" to make Galzria an IC.  There's only one more letter, which isn't enough to make a potential 1-shot doctor who would counterclaim Ashersky.

I bring this up again because people seem to be considering Ash's claim as 100% town, or at least a dangerous claim for scum to make.  In certain cases, it is a perfectly safe claim to make, and I think everyone should keep that in mind.

I don't think we should at all lynch Ash today, but I think everyone is giving him far too much town credit for his claim.

[nkirbit]

Vote: Robz

A complete lack of scumhunting.  Calls out people as scummy for suggesting that the Vig should shoot night1.. while this is a view that he does in fact hold, calling people out for it is an easy position to take.  (Jokingly?) votes Ash for him claim.. I'm not sure whether his vote is real or not.  And nothing else.

[nkirbit]

Wait, no, Vote: Voltaire

The post of his I just quoted indicates that he wasn't even considering the possibility of their being a 2-man scum team.  Is it because he knows there is a 3-man scum team?  I don't know, but it's a possibility that's stronger than any of my reads right now.

[Robz888]

Nothing I've done so far in this game has been serious. I plan to fix that soon, but I've barely read. Lots of other and IRL stuff going on.

[Voltaire]

What do you make of the point that it's a claim that, if he's scum, is guaranteed to get him found out?

Multiple people have made posts like this, but I want to re-iterate that this is simply untrue.

I was going off a post I can no longer find stating ash's claim would get him caught late in the game. Thought it was by theorel, couldn't find it, thought it was then by yuma, couldn't find it. I am not so hot at "theater", so I trust others to do it.

In other news being in multiple games has strained me (as I am still closely following M31 even though I am dead there).

[Voltaire]

Chairs has still done nothing but math posts. Keeping a vote: chairs.

[ashersky]

Vote Count Ash.1:

Robz888 (1): Yuma
Voltaire (2): Chairs, nkirbit
Chairs (1): Voltaire
Theorel (2): Robz888, Mail-mi
Sudgy (2): Twistedarcher, Ashersky
Nkirbit (2): Sudgy, Theorel
XerxesPraelor (1): Eevee
Twistedarcher (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (1): Galzria

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on October, 19 at 8:00 p.m. Forum time.

[ashersky]

Unluckily, this game and Modern Community both have day ends on Saturday.

We need something to get this game going again.  We've stalled out.  It's the usual mid-D1 lull.

[yuma]

I see your reasons for voting nkirbit and almost voted him (it's better than most things at this point), but, I'm keeping my vote on Robz until he answers my question.

Sudgy: How bout you answer my question first...

[yuma]

Vote Count Ash.1:

I am not on Robz, I should be on sudgy. But to make doubly sure vote: sudgy

[ashersky]

Nothing I've done so far in this game has been serious. I plan to fix that soon, but I've barely read. Lots of other and IRL stuff going on.

Scum!Robz says and does this more often than town!Robz.

vote: Robz

[chairs]

Nothing I've done so far in this game has been serious. I plan to fix that soon, but I've barely read. Lots of other and IRL stuff going on.

Scum!Robz says and does this more often than town!Robz.

vote: Robz

Yuma and Ashersky are voting the same person mid-D1? Must be bussing.  vote: Robz

[yuma]

Nothing I've done so far in this game has been serious. I plan to fix that soon, but I've barely read. Lots of other and IRL stuff going on.

Scum!Robz says and does this more often than town!Robz.

vote: Robz

Yuma and Ashersky are voting the same person mid-D1? Must be bussing.  vote: Robz

I am not voting for Robz, and haven't been for a while now... at least since Friday I think. Not that I wouldn't mind voting for Robz. I probably would be if it weren't for sudgy and his play and complete lack of response to my queries twice, going on three times...

[ashersky]

Nothing I've done so far in this game has been serious. I plan to fix that soon, but I've barely read. Lots of other and IRL stuff going on.

Scum!Robz says and does this more often than town!Robz.

vote: Robz

Yuma and Ashersky are voting the same person mid-D1? Must be bussing.  vote: Robz

I am not voting for Robz, and haven't been for a while now... at least since Friday I think. Not that I wouldn't mind voting for Robz. I probably would be if it weren't for sudgy and his play and complete lack of response to my queries twice, going on three times...

Oh, I missed your switch to sudgy.

[ashersky]

Nothing I've done so far in this game has been serious. I plan to fix that soon, but I've barely read. Lots of other and IRL stuff going on.

Scum!Robz says and does this more often than town!Robz.

vote: Robz

Yuma and Ashersky are voting the same person mid-D1? Must be bussing.  vote: Robz

If the scum-team was me/yuma/Robz, it kills your "2-man scum team ashersky awesome fakeclaim" theory.

Also, we would win.

[chairs]

Nothing I've done so far in this game has been serious. I plan to fix that soon, but I've barely read. Lots of other and IRL stuff going on.

Scum!Robz says and does this more often than town!Robz.

vote: Robz

Yuma and Ashersky are voting the same person mid-D1? Must be bussing.  vote: Robz

If the scum-team was me/yuma/Robz, it kills your "2-man scum team ashersky awesome fakeclaim" theory.

Also, we would win.

I don't think I'm the one who came up with that theory.

But I do agree that the scumteam you just described is statistically likely to have a better-than-average win percentage.

[sudgy]

Vote Count Ash.1:

Robz888 (1): Yuma
Voltaire (2): Chairs, nkirbit
Chairs (1): Voltaire
Theorel (2): Robz888, Mail-mi
Sudgy (2): Twistedarcher, Ashersky
Nkirbit (2): Sudgy, Theorel
XerxesPraelor (1): Eevee
Twistedarcher (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (1): Galzria

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on October, 19 at 8:00 p.m. Forum time.

I'm voting Robz.

I see your reasons for voting nkirbit and almost voted him (it's better than most things at this point), but, I'm keeping my vote on Robz until he answers my question.

Sudgy: How bout you answer my question first...

Sorry, I wrote up a post and said to post it but my internet connection died and it didn't get posted.  When nothing was happening, I just quickly thought if there was anything.  I didn't remember anything, so I tried RVS.

[yuma]

This question specifically: Why would you think the votes on TA were RVS? What made you think that? What made you say that?

for reference...

I thought the wagon on TA was still RVS too...

why would you think this?

my vote:

I just think that a vig should make this decision for themselves. They would have more information, and would be able to make a more informed decision.

Still scummy.

To clarify, they don't have more information, and I do agree with anti-vig folks that the risk/reward scenario generally favors anti-town folks, so scum will make arguments like TA's to not discourage while not encouraging Vigs.

is something of a sheep of ashersky's explanation. My vote is obviously not a joke and ash's analysis is very serious in tone

vote: ta

ash's vote:

Ok, we are talking about different things here. I am talking about the Vig individually having more knowledge of the setup, while you are talking about all of us having more knowledge (ie on the existence of a SK). I agree that your plan will let us know the existence of a SK, but I honestly think we will know that sooner or later. There's also the possibilities of a kill getting blocked, doctored, etc., so we wouldn't know for certain, so the plan isn't good.

Odds are, there won't be a vig shot, given the community census about N1 vig shots. But I don't think we should completely take that option away from the vig. The vig will know better on whether or not he should shoot N1 than we will, especially this early in the day.

But why would set-up knowledge help th vig when he's deciding who to kill?  That's the fallacy of your argument, and continuing to push it is scummy.

vote: TA if I wasn't already.

ash's vote here is obviously not RVS either, it continues on the line of thought that he had previously (mentioned above) and is of a serious nature...

neither are RVS at all....

I still don't like Robz's stance on ashersky. But I think I am more inclined to vote for sudgy. vote: sudgy Theorel, this is a real wagon, sometimes you can get a wagon on someone pretty early in a game. Winterspartan in Samuri's and Ninjas for example...

[sudgy]

When nothing was happening, I just quickly thought if there was anything.  I didn't remember anything, so I tried RVS.