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[yuma]

anyone else having a really hard time posting? that last one took about 5 tries to get through...

[ashersky]

If I were the Vig, I would absolutely shoot tonight.

So you can potentially shoot the cop that you need for the follow-the-cop plan to work... I just don't see it. I really don't! If we think that is a possibility why screw it up with such a dumb move?

Why are we arguing about something that, in this case (me), doesn't matter?  I love vigs.  I think they should shoot.  Others disagree.  That's the game.

As you mention, high-risk, high-reward.  If the Vig kills the Scum Roleblocker on N1, we can follow-the-cop.  That's the counter to your worry.

[ashersky]

anyone else having a really hard time posting? that last one took about 5 tries to get through...

Yes.

[yuma]

If I were the Vig, I would absolutely shoot tonight.

So you can potentially shoot the cop that you need for the follow-the-cop plan to work... I just don't see it. I really don't! If we think that is a possibility why screw it up with such a dumb move?

Why are we arguing about something that, in this case (me), doesn't matter?  I love vigs.  I think they should shoot.  Others disagree.  That's the game.

As you mention, high-risk, high-reward.  If the Vig kills the Scum Roleblocker on N1, we can follow-the-cop.  That's the counter to your worry.

Well you have some sway with people I think. I know I am not trying to convince you, but our conversation might convince others... And the point that I am making is that the part about the sK only works if everyone single person agrees to it, otherwise if have 2 kills, we are left wondering... SK or vig?

Do you think that the utility of finding out if there is a SK in the mix is worth having the vig shoot. I really thought you would agree with me on this point as you are so pro figuring our the setup...

[chairs]

If I am the vig, I will not shoot Night1.

[Twistedarcher]

If I am the vig, I will not limit my potential utility in a bolded statement, and will instead choose myself what I believe to be the best decision for town, whether that be to shoot or not to shoot N1.

Blanket telling PRs what to do doesn't make sense here. I trust any vig to make their own decisions, since they ARE playing to town's win condition.

[yuma]

If I am the vig, I will not limit my potential utility in a bolded statement, and will instead choose myself what I believe to be the best decision for town, whether that be to shoot or not to shoot N1.

Blanket telling PRs what to do doesn't make sense here. I trust any vig to make their own decisions, since they ARE playing to town's win condition.

well if that is the case then no one else bold any statements... like i said we need 100% for this to work. and we already aren't. w/o it, it is worthless... so whatever.

[Twistedarcher]

I just think that a vig should make this decision for themselves. They would have more information, and would be able to make a more informed decision.

[ashersky]

If I were the Vig, I would absolutely shoot tonight.

So you can potentially shoot the cop that you need for the follow-the-cop plan to work... I just don't see it. I really don't! If we think that is a possibility why screw it up with such a dumb move?

Why are we arguing about something that, in this case (me), doesn't matter?  I love vigs.  I think they should shoot.  Others disagree.  That's the game.

As you mention, high-risk, high-reward.  If the Vig kills the Scum Roleblocker on N1, we can follow-the-cop.  That's the counter to your worry.

Well you have some sway with people I think. I know I am not trying to convince you, but our conversation might convince others... And the point that I am making is that the part about the sK only works if everyone single person agrees to it, otherwise if have 2 kills, we are left wondering... SK or vig?

Do you think that the utility of finding out if there is a SK in the mix is worth having the vig shoot. I really thought you would agree with me on this point as you are so pro figuring our the setup...

Do I really sway anyone, though?  No more than you, it seems, looking at PPE posts.

I think finding out if an SK exists is important.  Depending on how D1 goes for the SK, I could see them not shooting just to hide themselves from D2 suspicion.

Plus, Vigs can just claim their shots.  Or SKs can say they are vigs.  Blanket "no vigs shooting" policies don't make for perfect plans, anymore than my ideas do.

[ashersky]

I just think that a vig should make this decision for themselves. They would have more information, and would be able to make a more informed decision.

Still scummy.

[ashersky]

I just think that a vig should make this decision for themselves. They would have more information, and would be able to make a more informed decision.

Still scummy.

To clarify, they don't have more information, and I do agree with anti-vig folks that the risk/reward scenario generally favors anti-town folks, so scum will make arguments like TA's to not discourage while not encouraging Vigs.

[yuma]

I just think that a vig should make this decision for themselves. They would have more information, and would be able to make a more informed decision.

i agree in general, except that in this setup we can use this to help determine if we have sk or not. i think that information is worth giving any vig a chance to decide for themselves if the should shoot or not... this only applies to night1... after that vigs do whatever they want. i suggest not shooting, but for different reasons than my night 1 bolded statement

[yuma]

I think finding out if an SK exists is important.  Depending on how D1 goes for the SK, I could see them not shooting just to hide themselves from D2 suspicion.

yes we only gain info if there are 2 shots... anything else we are left wondering. but i think a sk still shoots... that is their weapon. a no kill night for the sk is like a no lynch for town...

man typing one handed... super hard...

[yuma]

I just think that a vig should make this decision for themselves. They would have more information, and would be able to make a more informed decision.

Still scummy.

To clarify, they don't have more information, and I do agree with anti-vig folks that the risk/reward scenario generally favors anti-town folks, so scum will make arguments like TA's to not discourage while not encouraging Vigs.

vote: ta

[Twistedarcher]

I agree that a SK wouldn't hold off on shooting just to stay hidden.

How do they not have more information? They know more letters of the setup. It doesn't lead to more information on to whether or not there is an SK, since it alternates, and won't affect the decision on whether to shoot or not N1 probably, but how do you they not have more information on the setup?

It's very possibly best for the vig to not shoot, as Robz and others say. But absolutely saying "the vig should never shoot tonight" takes away a possible tool from a town PR. The vig should determine tonight what they believe the best option is.

[yuma]

I agree that a SK wouldn't hold off on shooting just to stay hidden.

How do they not have more information? They know more letters of the setup. It doesn't lead to more information on to whether or not there is an SK, since it alternates, and won't affect the decision on whether to shoot or not N1 probably, but how do you they not have more information on the setup?

Huh?

If there are 2 kills and we know for 100% that a vig didn't shoot we know there is a vig. There has to be. That gives us more information because we can eliminate half the possibilities and know that we have a sk to deal with.

But that only works if we 100% sure that the vig did not shoot. If we aren't 100% sure... well then the whole exercise is moot and becomes wifom...

that potential for surity is worth the one night loss of pr independence.

am i making sense?

[Twistedarcher]

Ok, we are talking about different things here. I am talking about the Vig individually having more knowledge of the setup, while you are talking about all of us having more knowledge (ie on the existence of a SK). I agree that your plan will let us know the existence of a SK, but I honestly think we will know that sooner or later. There's also the possibilities of a kill getting blocked, doctored, etc., so we wouldn't know for certain, so the plan isn't good.

Odds are, there won't be a vig shot, given the community census about N1 vig shots. But I don't think we should completely take that option away from the vig. The vig will know better on whether or not he should shoot N1 than we will, especially this early in the day.

[ashersky]

I agree that a SK wouldn't hold off on shooting just to stay hidden.

How do they not have more information? They know more letters of the setup. It doesn't lead to more information on to whether or not there is an SK, since it alternates, and won't affect the decision on whether to shoot or not N1 probably, but how do you they not have more information on the setup?

It's very possibly best for the vig to not shoot, as Robz and others say. But absolutely saying "the vig should never shoot tonight" takes away a possible tool from a town PR. The vig should determine tonight what they believe the best option is.

Every player knows more letters than what's public, unless you are VT, I suppose.  Vig's don't have more information than me, for example.

But I assumed you were talking about "information" in the sense that their decision on who to kill would be based on better info.  Because that's how it read, and that's what is important in discussing the pros and cons of the kill.  The fear is that Town Vig will kill Town Other PR (or VT, I guess) instead of scum, and all without the ability to claim at L-1, etc.

[ashersky]

Ok, we are talking about different things here. I am talking about the Vig individually having more knowledge of the setup, while you are talking about all of us having more knowledge (ie on the existence of a SK). I agree that your plan will let us know the existence of a SK, but I honestly think we will know that sooner or later. There's also the possibilities of a kill getting blocked, doctored, etc., so we wouldn't know for certain, so the plan isn't good.

Odds are, there won't be a vig shot, given the community census about N1 vig shots. But I don't think we should completely take that option away from the vig. The vig will know better on whether or not he should shoot N1 than we will, especially this early in the day.

But why would set-up knowledge help th vig when he's deciding who to kill?  That's the fallacy of your argument, and continuing to push it is scummy.

vote: TA if I wasn't already.

[Twistedarcher]

I agree that a SK wouldn't hold off on shooting just to stay hidden.

How do they not have more information? They know more letters of the setup. It doesn't lead to more information on to whether or not there is an SK, since it alternates, and won't affect the decision on whether to shoot or not N1 probably, but how do you they not have more information on the setup?

It's very possibly best for the vig to not shoot, as Robz and others say. But absolutely saying "the vig should never shoot tonight" takes away a possible tool from a town PR. The vig should determine tonight what they believe the best option is.

Every player knows more letters than what's public, unless you are VT, I suppose.  Vig's don't have more information than me, for example.

But I assumed you were talking about "information" in the sense that their decision on who to kill would be based on better info.  Because that's how it read, and that's what is important in discussing the pros and cons of the kill.  The fear is that Town Vig will kill Town Other PR (or VT, I guess) instead of scum, and all without the ability to claim at L-1, etc.

I agree that it's a large downside, and note that I'm not saying that the vig SHOULD shoot night.

What I'm saying is that the Vig should make that decision on his own, rather than us telling him what to do.

[yuma]

Ok, we are talking about different things here. I am talking about the Vig individually having more knowledge of the setup, while you are talking about all of us having more knowledge (ie on the existence of a SK). I agree that your plan will let us know the existence of a SK, but I honestly think we will know that sooner or later. There's also the possibilities of a kill getting blocked, doctored, etc., so we wouldn't know for certain, so the plan isn't good.

Odds are, there won't be a vig shot, given the community census about N1 vig shots. But I don't think we should completely take that option away from the vig. The vig will know better on whether or not he should shoot N1 than we will, especially this early in the day.

sooner or later... sure we might know... but sooner is better i think as it restricts what mafia is capable of claiming.

and yes... possibilit of doc/rb/whatever...

I already said it only works if we have 2 NKs. anything else we don't know... but don't tell me that a plan that has one of its results being only 1 NK is a bad thing...

and yes community consensus... but community consensus isn;t good enough for this... it only works if everyone explicitly states... but like I said I have given up on that, as you didn't explicity state and don't seem inclined to at any point... so discussion over?

[mail-mi]

If I am the vig, I will not shoot Night1.

[ashersky]

I already said it only works if we have 2 NKs. anything else we don't know... but don't tell me that a plan that has one of its results being only 1 NK is a bad thing...

I would point out the possibility that even 3 NKs (or 4, etc.) don't mean anything either.  The set-up allows for multiple vigs.  Plus mafia and SK NKs.

I get your plan, but it seems tough to pull off, and even then, we can't be sure.

[sudgy]

I think, if there's more than one NK, the vig, if any, should claim.  If no vig claims, then it was the mafia and SK that killed.

So now lets move on.

[sudgy]

Vote: ashersky for always saying to do things different than the established norm.