Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[werothegreat]

I was trying to figure out how to view the contents of the Black Market deck on Goko today (click the "all cards" button above the Trash pile and scroll over), and I thought it might be a cool idea to make a series of videos - one for each Dominion card, as a sort of tutorial on use and strategy for each of these cards, specifically for play on Goko.  Along with general strategy, it would include things like how exactly to use the interfaces that pop up for each card.  Would anyone actually watch these videos?  Would anyone like to help me make them?

[Tables]

Ooh, sounds pretty interesting. I might I'll certainly be up for helping, although I'm hardly an expert. I was considering doing Dominion videos for beginners.

Edit: I would definitely say we should do base before anything else, and actually, I'm very willing to take part. I guess we don't need to go into too much detail anyway, so an intermediate like me should be fine.

[werothegreat]

It would probably go expansion by expansion, starting with the simplest, best or most iconic cards, and moving along.  So for Base, probably start with Smithy, Market, Chapel, Militia, and wending our way to Adventurer.

For each video, I would provide some pre-scripted narration, over a screencap video of me showing its basic mechanics against a bot.  What I would need from other players is footage of the card in action, being used effectively.  Going over the strategies listed in its corresponding article, if there is one.  I would probably also narrate over this footage.  AdamH recommends this sortware, though I have yet to try it myself:

http://camstudio.org/

[SCSN]

Along with general strategy, it would include things like how exactly to use the interfaces that pop up for each card.

Videos entitled "How to use Hamlet on Goko" and "How to not discard your good cards with Cartographer" would be much appreciated!

[TrojH]

What I would need from other players is footage of the card in action, being used effectively.

I guess we'll never have a Scout video, then.

[yed]

What I would need from other players is footage of the card in action, being used effectively.

I guess we'll never have a Scout video, then.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130906/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1378477689432.txt
Turns 22 and 23.
Scout helped SCSN buy Province next turn. Unfortunately not recorder.

[dondon151]

"How to use the Smithy:"
"Play the Smithy."
"And that's how you use the Smithy."

(For further information, please consult eHow.com.)

[werothegreat]

"How to use the Smithy:"
"Play the Smithy."
"And that's how you use the Smithy."

(For further information, please consult eHow.com.)

I never said the videos have to be of considerable length.

[sudgy]

If you wanted to, Smithy could be a lesson on how to use terminal draw.  On later terminal draw cards, you could say, "This is like Smithy with these differences..."

[serakfalcon]

Terminal Draw. The Video. The Game.

[Awaclus]

The Game.

Damn you.

[werothegreat]

So, Smithy first?  Go forth, Dominionators, and take footage of you playing with Smithy in optimal situations!

I think after that:
Market
Village
Chapel
Militia
Cellar
Moneylender

[AdamH]

If you want free screencap software for Windows, CamStudio is probably best. It's not perfect but it will do what you need it to do.

I'd be willing to help, but I really should update my own Dominion video tutorial series, because it still uses iso. I also finally feel like I'm good enough to talk about the next thing I wanted to talk about in a tutorial without getting it totally wrong. I really should be doing that. Must. Find. Motivation. Hmh.

Well, that makes me think about this stuff though. If it were me making these videos, I'd be asking myself "what's the point?" What is the viewer going to take away from these videos? In one of my tutorial videos I mention that it's a good idea to read the card text and every card and understand why you would want that card in your deck. How does that card help you (and also how can it be misused)?

When I answer those questions in my mind, I categorize the cards in certain ways: Trasher, Attack, Gainer, Plus Buy, Draw, Village, Worthless. Then there are subcategories, like for Attacks you have Junkers, Discard attacks, Top-deck attacks, trashing attacks, etc. For Worthless you just have Scout .

The way I think about Dominion (which may be different than the way you all do) is a "top-down" approach. When I'm looking at a board I categorize every card like this and it gives me an idea of the landscape of the game. That's where stuff like this would fit into my mental model of the game.

It makes me think you might want to take this approach when making these videos. You can make a separate video for each card but I think there's so much repetition and not much benefit from it. I think a discussion on how to categorize the cards that is generic enough for lots of people would be helpful.

[Tables]

Can I suggest, you make one video (e.g. Smithy) all on your own, to give us an idea of what to contribute and what you're looking for? It's very vague to just say 'go use Smithy in optimal contexts' I fear.

[werothegreat]

Can I suggest, you make one video (e.g. Smithy) all on your own, to give us an idea of what to contribute and what you're looking for? It's very vague to just say 'go use Smithy in optimal contexts' I fear.

Give me a couple days.

[werothegreat]

Something like this?  Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV9Qy_9HEso

[Awaclus]

Something like this?  Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV9Qy_9HEso

That seems like a good simple tutorial for beginners.

[AHoppy]

That looks good, but if these are also tutorials for goko, then maybe the first time you play the card you could show it slower or something, showing where these extra cards are coming from.  But that all could be added into one big video about the goko interface.  I'm just thinking that people who might stumble upon these videos who only play IRL might be quite confused about what is going on.  But I like this initiative, and I wouldn't mind helping out with this.

[AdamH]

I actually like that video quite a lot. I don't know that someone who doesn't have your particular voice could be as effective at narrating a video like that.

If this is your aim for these videos, it seems that you wouldn't want a separate video for every single card out there. It may be helpful for us to brainstorm the ones we want to make. We have one for "terminal draw" here, I had mentioned some other categories before. Do other people think this is a good idea?

[brokoli]

You should post it on Board game geek.

[werothegreat]

That looks good, but if these are also tutorials for goko, then maybe the first time you play the card you could show it slower or something, showing where these extra cards are coming from.  But that all could be added into one big video about the goko interface.  I'm just thinking that people who might stumble upon these videos who only play IRL might be quite confused about what is going on.  But I like this initiative, and I wouldn't mind helping out with this.

The transitions are a little quick, aren't they?  In future I'd spend more time on each video and make sure that everything were clearly visible.

I actually like that video quite a lot. I don't know that someone who doesn't have your particular voice could be as effective at narrating a video like that.

*blush* Oh, stop...

If this is your aim for these videos, it seems that you wouldn't want a separate video for every single card out there. It may be helpful for us to brainstorm the ones we want to make. We have one for "terminal draw" here, I had mentioned some other categories before. Do other people think this is a good idea?

And yet each terminal draw card has its own special flavor to be discussed, usually.  Margrave should not be spammed, Rabble and Torturer should be, Journeyman requires finesse, and so on.  And I would be discussing the categories - are you familiar with the wiki at all?  There are actually separate articles for each category.

I guess my intention for these is for a player to look up a specific video for a specific card to get specific advice on how to play it.  As we get further into the expansions, the advice would get less and less "wait, what's an Action?" and more concerned with strategy and metagame.

[werothegreat]

You should post it on Board game geek.

But... but... but that involves logging into Board Game Geek...

[AdamH]

I actually like that video quite a lot. I don't know that someone who doesn't have your particular voice could be as effective at narrating a video like that.

*blush* Oh, stop...

No

But seriously, if I read those same words and attempted to sound like you, I'd come off as condescending of patronizing, but you come off as welcoming and caring.

And yet each terminal draw card has its own special flavor to be discussed, usually.  Margrave should not be spammed, Rabble and Torturer should be, Journeyman requires finesse, and so on.  And I would be discussing the categories - are you familiar with the wiki at all?  There are actually separate articles for each category.

I guess my intention for these is for a player to look up a specific video for a specific card to get specific advice on how to play it.  As we get further into the expansions, the advice would get less and less "wait, what's an Action?" and more concerned with strategy and metagame.

So how much information are you planning to repeat in the Hunting Grounds video vs. the Smithy video? You seem to have a particular vision that's different from the way I think about categorizing the cards, but I'm wondering if there's some way to get the best of both worlds here. If you're going to compare the terminal draw cards like that, it seems like that that content would fit best in one single video, not mentioning the sentence fragment that applies to Journeyman in that Journeyman video.

[werothegreat]

Well, for Hunting Grounds in particular, I'd probably start with "it's terminal draw" as a starting place without repeating much from the Smithy video, but then go into the implications of the higher cost, and discuss the on-trash effect and its uses - when you'd take the Estates and things like that.

[brokoli]

You should post it on Board game geek.

But... but... but that involves logging into Board Game Geek...

Did you forget your password or what ?
If you want, I can do that myself. Actually I wanted to do so but there is a message : "Notice: PLEASE do not add videos created by other users before they have had a chance to do so themselves."

[AdamH]

Well, for Hunting Grounds in particular, I'd probably start with "it's terminal draw" as a starting place without repeating much from the Smithy video, but then go into the implications of the higher cost, and discuss the on-trash effect and its uses - when you'd take the Estates and things like that.

That sounds good. I'd sort of be interested in seeing that one next rather than one from a different category, but I'm just one person who probably won't be able to help very much other than to help come up with ideas and talk about it, so yeah...

[werothegreat]

Well, for Hunting Grounds in particular, I'd probably start with "it's terminal draw" as a starting place without repeating much from the Smithy video, but then go into the implications of the higher cost, and discuss the on-trash effect and its uses - when you'd take the Estates and things like that.

That sounds good. I'd sort of be interested in seeing that one next rather than one from a different category, but I'm just one person who probably won't be able to help very much other than to help come up with ideas and talk about it, so yeah...

This will go easier if I get footage from others, rather than having to do it all myself.  How about I post the script I've written for each video, and people can propose changes, and start filming footage.

[Tables]

That seems really nice.

A few things I'd suggest:

Echoing what others have said about game speed. I'd play on Normal, heck maybe even slow, for a few of the super basic cards, then turn it up as we move on and know what everything means.

Each bit of footage seems very short. Like a know there's not a lot you can do when the footage is, play smithy, buy card, but maybe you could wait 1/2 a second to a second between each action - play village, wait, play Smithy, wait, play smithy, wait, buy gold. Makes it much clearer what is going on.

In addition, I'm not sure how I feel about you advertising the village+smithy engine. I mean, sure it technically is the simplest thing you can play, but it's also worse than Smithy+BM without any support (IIRC). I guess there's nothing wrong with what you say, it just kind of feels a little misleading I guess?

[Witherweaver]

So when I hear the voice I imagine that the dungeon master in The Gamers: Dorkness Rising is narrating.

[jsh357]

My main criticism of the Smithy video is that it does not touch on shuffle control.  There are a lot of situations where you should not play a Terminal Draw card--if you have needed Golds in your hand (assuming Smithy BM) that would miss the shuffle because of playing Smithy, or if you are in a mid-game situation where having the Smithy miss the shuffle would be a problem, for instance.   

I like the format.  I considering doing something similar a long time ago but got a bit spooked by the time investment. (and my lack of knowledge compared to better players) 

One issue I see with a video guide is that it's not easy to modify should new strategies be discovered or new data suggest using cards in a different way.  Like, how well did people understand Rebuild right after Dark Ages came out?  Not very.  If you put up a video, it's 'permanent' unless you go through the trouble of shooting it all over again, whereas a wiki page can be modified on the fly.  The videos are more fun to watch, though.  Bit of a trade-off there.

[AdamH]

In addition, I'm not sure how I feel about you advertising the village+smithy engine. I mean, sure it technically is the simplest thing you can play, but it's also worse than Smithy+BM without any support (IIRC). I guess there's nothing wrong with what you say, it just kind of feels a little misleading I guess?

FWIW, whenever I'm teaching the game, I address the Village+Smithy engine early and talk very harshly about it. I say it's not worth it because of dead draw and lack of economy and only at the very end of explaining it do I say something like "This kind of thing can work but it needs a lot of support and it's difficult to play right. It's just the way I choose to teach it, though, and you can do what you want.

[SirPeebles]

Judging from the video, this is intended for beginners.  I think the level of depth is perfect for that purpose.  I would consider shuffle control, particularly for Smithy, to be more of an advanced topic.  I would have liked to see more warning against buying too many terminals, since that is a common error which is especially pronounced for terminal draw like Smithy.

[jsh357]

Judging from the video, this is intended for beginners.  I think the level of depth is perfect for that purpose.  I would consider shuffle control, particularly for Smithy, to be more of an advanced topic.  I would have liked to see more warning against buying too many terminals, since that is a common error which is especially pronounced for terminal draw like Smithy.

While shuffle control could be construed as an 'advanced' subject (it's much easier to notice in IRL play), I would counter argue that Smithy is the most basic card to use in understanding the concept.  On idea is to have an "Advanced Tip" section at the end of each video that goes in to some concept beyond the immediate idea of using the card.

[werothegreat]

So what I'm getting out of this is you all mainly like the idea, but the Smithy video should be redone a little?  That's understandable - it really is just a rough thing I cobbled together.  AdamH, jsh, if you'd like to write up something for me to add to the script about the topics you've brought up, or if anyone would like to retake some footage (please in .avi or .wmv format, my movie-making program can't handle .mp4s), that would be awesome.

By the way, none of you have asked this, but the music is my own composition.

[Tables]

I did think the music was quite fitting, nicely done!

[AdamH]

I wonder if the whole Village/Smithy part is better suited for the Village video instead of this. The part where you say "there are ways around playing more than one terminal in a turn, but more on that later" you could just refer to the Village video, and talk about engines there?

In my video tutorial, I made an entire video about getting too many terminals, and I think Smithy is the place to show that. Your style is obviously different than mine so you'll want to word it differently.

[werothegreat]

I wonder if the whole Village/Smithy part is better suited for the Village video instead of this. The part where you say "there are ways around playing more than one terminal in a turn, but more on that later" you could just refer to the Village video, and talk about engines there?

In my video tutorial, I made an entire video about getting too many terminals, and I think Smithy is the place to show that. Your style is obviously different than mine so you'll want to word it differently.

Good point.  So how about just a discussion of Smithy-BM, then an "advanced tips" section on shuffle control?

[Tables]

I like that idea. Keeps the first video short and concise.

Edit: I'm going to start recording some more Smithy footage for use. Let me know what the easiest way to send it to you will be (firstly how to send it and secondly what format - I can do MP4 very easily or can convert it to wlmp or wmv with a little more work)

[werothegreat]

I like that idea. Keeps the first video short and concise.

Edit: I'm going to start recording some more Smithy footage for use. Let me know what the easiest way to send it to you will be (firstly how to send it and secondly what format - I can do MP4 very easily or can convert it to wlmp or wmv with a little more work)

You can email me - PM me for the address.  And I specifically can NOT use mp4 - please use avi or wmv.  Thanks!

[AHoppy]

What card would you be doing next so that we could start collecting video for that?

[AdamH]

What card would you be doing next so that we could start collecting video for that?

I would think we would want to get a least one video the way we want it just so we don't waste a bunch of video that ended up being the wrong thing. That's the way I'd do it, at least.

[Tables]

Hmm... actually an issue you might run into collecting footage from different people is a variety of qualities and sizes and the like, that could be an issue... I'll send what I have as a WMV, let me know if it's even really usable though.

[werothegreat]

What card would you be doing next so that we could start collecting video for that?

I would think we would want to get a least one video the way we want it just so we don't waste a bunch of video that ended up being the wrong thing. That's the way I'd do it, at least.

This.  But the next video will be Market.

[Tables]

Currently uploading 4 minutes of Smithy footage. 160MBs. Next time I might cut some stuff out... still at least I hope it'll be useful, once it's actually done uploading.

[Tables]

Bump. Any progress on this?

[werothegreat]

Bump. Any progress on this?

I have been so busy lately.  I may not have the time to do this, at least for the next couple months.

[dondon151]

The card combos thread got me thinking: instead of making strategy videos on every card, why not do it for combos instead?

[werothegreat]

Realize this is a bit of a necro (I know, it's been over a year), but I'm still interested in doing this, and my workload has finally lightened up somewhat.  I think the first thing to do would be to revamp the Smithy video before moving on to any other cards.

What I've gathered from your thoughts a year ago:

-Slower speed for the gameplay
-Focus a little more on where the card draw is coming from
-Nix the Village engine bit, save it for the Village video
-Add an "Advanced Tips" section at the end to discuss shuffle control

Any other ideas?  Is there still any interest at all in this?

[Beyond Awesome]

I watched the village video and liked it.

I would at some point in the video say that smithy can be used as terminal draw in BM or can be used in an engine, a more advanced topic we will cover in a later video. I would also mention other terminal draw cards like Rabble, Journeyman, etc. Just touch upon them, but state they do function slightly differently than Smithy.

I think you should focus on only the most important cards and go expansion by expansion. So, obviously, no Adventurer. Maybe cover Thief since a lot of beginners overestimate its power.

In your videos, I would allude to engines and whatnot, but maybe not go too much into topic and then make a video or two on building engines. You can also do a video on slogs and rushes and whatnot.

I would also make a tips and tricks video for beginners going over things lots of noobs make like buying coopers, over stuffing with terminals, planning ahead for what your deck will be like, etc. Maybe these videos will collectively cover that. I do like the idea of a video tutorial series, and I agreed with the poster who said put this on board game geek because I think players over there could benefit the most with videos like this.

Honestly, I can see these videos being immensely popular and people sending you to your channel for those who want to learn how to play Dominion or get better at.

Oh, and I love the music. Great job composing it. You also have a very good narrating voice.

[AdamH]

I had a suggestion from someone a while ago about maybe having some actual examples. Say you have a board where Smithy+BM is dominant and that's what you're playing. You could have some statistics about money density and probability of hitting $8, or maybe sim results with win rates too. I wonder if that would be useful.

[Hugovj]

Yes, yes, yes. This is a great idea.

I think the money density an simulation is a bit too much for a beginner video. You might want to cover that later on.

But yeah, send me a script and I'll start playing some good ol' Smithy+BM

[Beyond Awesome]

I had a suggestion from someone a while ago about maybe having some actual examples. Say you have a board where Smithy+BM is dominant and that's what you're playing. You could have some statistics about money density and probability of hitting $8, or maybe sim results with win rates too. I wonder if that would be useful.

I don't think we want the videos to be too long. How about just say in the video for more in depth analysis of how to use this card please visit the dominion strategy forums?