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[Galzria]

bocaJ:

A) I agree(d) 100% with Robz asking for Doctor protection, and would've done so myself (for him) had I thought of it.

B) I wasn't on EFHW, I was on Sudgy. I moved to liopoil. I refused to move to EFHW when it was "demanded", and instead offered a much more likely candidate to be scum (AHoppy) based purely on the criteria that TA was supposedly interested in (lurking, didn't have suspicion). EFHW had almost 50 posts. AHoppy had 15. EFHW asked questions and took stances. AHoppy did, but less so. AHoppy had gotten as little (or less) attention as EFHW. Voltaire and TA were completely uninterested (big surprise).

[Galzria]

bocaJ:

A) I agree(d) 100% with Robz asking for Doctor protection, and would've done so myself (for him) had I thought of it.

B) I wasn't on EFHW, I was on Sudgy. I moved to liopoil. I refused to move to EFHW when it was "demanded", and instead offered a much more likely candidate to be scum (AHoppy) based purely on the criteria that TA was supposedly interested in (lurking, didn't have suspicion). EFHW had almost 50 posts. AHoppy had 15. EFHW asked questions and took stances. AHoppy did, but less so. AHoppy had gotten as little (or less) attention as EFHW. Voltaire and TA were completely uninterested (big surprise).

To clarify: I would've suggested Robz get a Doctor right at the end had I thought of it. If I WAS an actual Doctor, I still would've considered my options. The reason a suggestion like that needs to be placed out there late w/o discussion is that Voltgloss is the obvious Doctor choice. But because of that, scum will choose not to shoot him. Ideally, if Robz is getting investigated, you don't want him shot at the same time. By suggesting that a Doctor protect him, you give a potential Doctor the option of protecting Voltgloss or Robz. Scum then has to try and guess where the protection is if they shoot either of those two. Or, they can shoot outside those two. If you ask for the protection earlier, and it gets discussed, you could end up tipping your hand to scum making their shot easy.

So I absolutely support Robz asking for the protection. It gives a decent chance of protection to someone who is (hopefully) going to be investigated - thus ensuring the investigation isn't wasted. Whether or not he was ACTUALLY doctored I could care less about.

[bocaJ]

Alright, clearly I need to go reread.

unvote

[sudgy]

So, sorry, I was gone for the last several days, I didn't think I needed to say much because I still had internet access and it would be in night most of the time.

Well I was wrong.

I said I wouldn't be around at deadline my first post about an hour before deadline.  I had stuff to do.  I also wasn't able to be on today (yesterday?) or Sunday because I was driving ~600 miles.

Now.  Back to the game.  First, Vote: Invite Dede.  TA, I'm looking for my pen, I don't know how you could help me with that (short of having my pen).

Second, I'm not sure who to look at at the moment.  I know I need to reread, and will ask for the general consensus of who should be reread.  I can only think of Voltaire and shraeye at the moment, but I know I should do more.

[AHoppy]

I haven't had time for a reread yet, and I'll be busy until the weekend, so hopefully I can do one then.  I just have one thing: Could shraeye have been killed by bocaJ, the paranoid gun owner?  Maybe he thought that being a ninja would get him past the gun and kill someone we all believe to be town.  Seems like a long shot to me, but still a possibility.  And can someone remind me what macho townie means?  Not that it really matters...

vote: no invite because I don't know what this means

Just from memory:  I would agree, walrus is looking pretty scummy to me.  Especially this:

I'm sure that I fall into the category of people who watched but didn't post in the final hours. For me personally, that was a case of "I'm at work and I can watch this drama unfold, but there's no way I can meaningfully participate right now."

Also, seriously, there were like 8 million posts being made per second. If I tried to reply, there would be 20 more before I would finish a draft. It was like the goddamn New York Stock Exchange with votes flying everywhere. I honestly couldn't keep up, and I kind of like to make long, measured replies that address all the issues of the moment. I was happy with my vote, although disappointed to see the flip of course. I wish he would have like claimed or something. I guess a good place to start looking next might be people who voted for mcmc (yes, I know that's me too but still), there was possibly scum on that train, maybe? But even now I'm on my phone and I gotta go, so I'll think about it and cast a vote later.

Oh, and I'm doing vote: no invite because I already lost my secondary wincon and I'm feeling bitter [/grumpycat]

Long and measured, that's something scum wants to do.  They want to cover everything, but they want to be slow and contemplative about it so they don't screw it up.  Flurry of posts is not their thing and getting their views out is less important than tripping up.  For town:  Tripping up is much less important than giving their views or voting.  So for now, I'm going to vote: walrus

[Voltgloss]

I haven't had time for a reread yet, and I'll be busy until the weekend, so hopefully I can do one then.  I just have one thing: Could shraeye have been killed by bocaJ, the paranoid gun owner?  Maybe he thought that being a ninja would get him past the gun and kill someone we all believe to be town.  Seems like a long shot to me, but still a possibility.  And can someone remind me what macho townie means?  Not that it really matters...

If shraeye had tried to nightkill bocaJ, then bocaJ would be dead as well. 

"Macho" means that nkirbit could not be saved by Doctor protection.

[Voltgloss]

shraeye, as enabled scum, responded to Galz's claim by arguing that Galz should not be lynched and instead should be left alive for scum WIFOM purposes.  He also reacted strongly and adversely to the prospect of someone vigging Galz.

Who else reacted in similar way(s)?

[Voltgloss]

Speaking of vigging Galz:  that idea was, as I recall, proposed by nkirbit (now confirmed town) and then advocated by sudgy.  We now, of course, know that vigging Galz is something the mafia would NOT have wanted.

[Voltgloss]

Can those suggesting "alternate scum could have killed shraeye" explain why they think shraeye was a logical target for competing scum to kill?

[faust]

We have some flips now. Even one mafia flip! That's great, as I believe it may be of help when we try to find the other scum. We should look closely on who interacted with mcmc, nkirbit and shraeye in a suspicious way. I've already done a reread for mcmc during the night, and I'll try to give some results here.

So which interactions are notable?

Liopoil/Jorbles: Helps mcmc fulfill his secondary wincon. (post #296) Defends mcmc a lot (#979, #994, #1015,#1022), but in the end agrees to vote for him, despite still thinking he is town (#1350). I can easily see his interactions as scum trying to oppose the lynch of a townie to gain towncred.

EFHW: This is interesting because EFHW is basically the only one who pushed mcmc for things other than lurking (#940, #1070,#1078). She doesn't agree that an mcmc lynch will be informative, however. (#986) This gives me more of a town vibe for her.

Robz: Opposes the mcmc wagon (#1072, #1186), but is frustrated that he left later (#1485). Is this scum hoping for a claim by mcmc, getting trust for opposing the wagon on him? Could be. Slight scum.

Walrus: Sheeps Voltgloss (#955) and EFHW (#989) on the mcmc case. Looks like scum jumping the easy wagon.

Voltaire: Strange. A lot back (#355, #1031, #1064, #1521) and forth (#881, #895, #1255, #1319, #1332) here. First gets town vibes from mcmc, then is okay with lynching him, then again shows concern. I'm getting more of a town vibe from this, scum I think would stick to their reads more.

Sudgy: defends mcmc all the way through (#990, #1341, #1370). I could see scum here, but it could be determined town.

Liopoil/Jorbles and Walrus seem most scummy from this. I will try to get this done for our other flips as well.

[Eevee]

Was Galzria enabling shraeye's ninjaness or his ability to kill altogether?

[Voltgloss]

Looking back, I note that scum!shraeye was completely silent on the whole nkirbit "scumslip" wagon.  Like, I don't think he said anything about that topic.

What conclusions can we draw from that regarding whether shraeye's scumpartner(s) were on or off that wagon?

[faust]

Now to the second flip – nkirbit. Generally, I tend to find the people giving him a town read townier – because hey, scum lynched nkirbit, so they must have been worried that some town members find nkirbit townie. The list of people finding nkirbit townie includes:

Twistedarcher (many posts, for example #756), Eevee (#1154) and Robz (#919)

More specific interactions:

Twistedarcher: This really stands out. TA opposes the nkirbit wagon from the beginning (#728, #744, #756, #786). But I thought then and think now that his reasons for that were weak, and there was some misleading going on. Also note that scum!shraeye states that he gets „good vibes“ from TA for that (#830). Then, after Voltgloss' defense of nkirbit, TA has a „yay, the IC agrees with me“-post (#889). All in all, this really seems like scum playing for towncred.

Walrus: He doesn't jump on the „scumslip“, says he can understand it (#510). Then he votes nkirbit with not much more reasoning than „it's the only viable wagon“ (#745). After Voltgloss' post, he changes his vote „for the sake of town solidarity“ (#955). Much sheeping here. I'm leaning scum.

Voltaire: Says he buys nkirbit's „scumslip“ explanation (#518). Later he repeatedly defends people for being on nkirbit's wagon (#755, #768). I don't get a lot from that. As nkirbit was town, defending people voting for him seems a little bit scummy.

BocaJ: Votes nkirbit for the „slip“ (#591) and is the only one never to change that. I'm seeing town here. As a newbie, I can understand people wanting to vote on some „hard“ basis rather than „but XY is acting exactly like in that other game where he was scum!“

Liopoil/Jorbles: Defends nkirbits „scumslip“ (#491). Comes back after Voltgloss' post and calls the nkirbit wagon „silly“ (#941), which of course is an easy position to take once the IC has weighed in. I'm not really getting anything from that.

So from that, I get a town read on Eevee, Robz and bocaJ, and a scum read on Twistedarcher and Walrus (and a little bit Voltaire).

This is exhausting. I might take a little break before I look at the last (and probably most interesting) flip.

[Twistedarcher]

Now to the second flip – nkirbit. Generally, I tend to find the people giving him a town read townier – because hey, scum lynched nkirbit, so they must have been worried that some town members find nkirbit townie. The list of people finding nkirbit townie includes:

Twistedarcher (many posts, for example #756), Eevee (#1154) and Robz (#919)

More specific interactions:

Twistedarcher: This really stands out. TA opposes the nkirbit wagon from the beginning (#728, #744, #756, #786). But I thought then and think now that his reasons for that were weak, and there was some misleading going on. Also note that scum!shraeye states that he gets „good vibes“ from TA for that (#830). Then, after Voltgloss' defense of nkirbit, TA has a „yay, the IC agrees with me“-post (#889). All in all, this really seems like scum playing for towncred.

Walrus: He doesn't jump on the „scumslip“, says he can understand it (#510). Then he votes nkirbit with not much more reasoning than „it's the only viable wagon“ (#745). After Voltgloss' post, he changes his vote „for the sake of town solidarity“ (#955). Much sheeping here. I'm leaning scum.

Voltaire: Says he buys nkirbit's „scumslip“ explanation (#518). Later he repeatedly defends people for being on nkirbit's wagon (#755, #768). I don't get a lot from that. As nkirbit was town, defending people voting for him seems a little bit scummy.

BocaJ: Votes nkirbit for the „slip“ (#591) and is the only one never to change that. I'm seeing town here. As a newbie, I can understand people wanting to vote on some „hard“ basis rather than „but XY is acting exactly like in that other game where he was scum!“

Liopoil/Jorbles: Defends nkirbits „scumslip“ (#491). Comes back after Voltgloss' post and calls the nkirbit wagon „silly“ (#941), which of course is an easy position to take once the IC has weighed in. I'm not really getting anything from that.

So from that, I get a town read on Eevee, Robz and bocaJ, and a scum read on Twistedarcher and Walrus (and a little bit Voltaire).

This is exhausting. I might take a little break before I look at the last (and probably most interesting) flip.

So, you find myself, Walrus, and Voltaire (the people who everyone else has already said today they think they could lynch) scummy, while finding everyone who hasn't gotten any pressure today towny.

As I said multiple times, I found Nkirbit's actions null-to-slightly-towny, and the fact that everyone was jumping on actions that to me seemed null gave me a huge town read on Nkirbit. People on his wagon were trying to paint him as scummy from actions that just weren't scummy.

[Twistedarcher]

Looking back, I note that scum!shraeye was completely silent on the whole nkirbit "scumslip" wagon.  Like, I don't think he said anything about that topic.

What conclusions can we draw from that regarding whether shraeye's scumpartner(s) were on or off that wagon?

I'd imagine scum would want to split up on that wagon, it doesn't seem like the kind of wagon you'd want 3 or more scum to pile onto. So I'd expect in addition to Shraeye we'd find scum both on and off wagon. I do suspect that there were a couple of scum on Nkirbit, though.

[faust]

So, you find myself, Walrus, and Voltaire (the people who everyone else has already said today they think they could lynch) scummy, while finding everyone who hasn't gotten any pressure today towny.

As I said multiple times, I found Nkirbit's actions null-to-slightly-towny, and the fact that everyone was jumping on actions that to me seemed null gave me a huge town read on Nkirbit. People on his wagon were trying to paint him as scummy from actions that just weren't scummy.

I have not considered today's actions in this, honestly. Above that, what you're saying is not even true. Eevee has already been under suspicion.

[Twistedarcher]

Votes on EFHW leading up to deadline:

Voltgloss
Voltaire
mcmc
liopoil
TA

With the exception of mcmc, who was voting to save himself as much as anything else at that point, the people on EFHW were the same people on mcmc. If EFHW were scum, it stands to reason that her scummates would not all of a sudden, out of nowhere, throw a whole lot of weight her way as a snap decision at deadline. Not to... save mcmc, the townie.

So, either you buy that the entire list above is town, who altogether collectively lynched town, OR, you accept that EFHW is likely town herself.

Further, EFHW was one of the few people who actively supported me in the theory that "IF I enable scum, town wants me dead ASAP". If she is Shraeye's partner, in what universe does that make any sense whatsover? Why in the world would she sit there pushing MY lynch, post claim, knowing full well that it would strip her team of a power? What does she gain from it? Town!cred? Not really....

If she's Shraeye's partner, then lynching me would've been absolutely wrong. There's no way she forsee's Shraeye's death, and certainly can't make some grand, master plan about it on the fly midday.

So from where I'm standing: EFHW is town. No other way about it.

This argument doesn't work when you look closer at those 5 people:

Voltgloss: IC
Mcmc: Town
Liopoil: Just wanted a lynched that wasn't himself
TA: Town read on Lio, Scum read on EFHW, would have lynched most people over Lio. Also found EFHW scummy most of the day.
Voltaire: Found EFHW scummy most of the day.

So, we have 2 confirmed town on that wagon, the alternate target, and 2 people who had been finding EFHW scummy for awhile. The argument that EFHW must be town because there's 5 people who were willing to jump to her just doesn't hold water when you break town the individuals -- the only people I think you could even find slightly suspicious are myself and Voltaire, and we both had found EFHW scummy.

You're really misrepresenting the argument by saying "FIVE people were willing to lynch EFHW! She must be town!" when 2/5 were confirmed town and 1/5 was the alternate lynch.

[Voltgloss]

TA, what about galz's second point - that efhw wanted yo lynch galz because of his claim?

[Voltgloss]

yo = to

[Dsell]

Galz, does any of that factor in the possibility of two scum teams?

[Voltaire]

I remember reading on MafiaScum about some role where you had to switch out the person playing the role in the course of the game. For the life of me I can't remember what it was. I doubt that's what we have in lio/Jorbles but I think it's worth looking in to and I can't find it. Any help is appreciated.

Big ol' post coming up this morning.

[Twistedarcher]

TA, what about galz's second point - that efhw wanted yo lynch galz because of his claim?

Initially it does look like a fair point (I need to I reread what he's talking about when I'm not on my phone). However, as someone said, I wouldexpect scum to fall on multiple sides of any issue, including this one. So someone saying that galz should be killed would not make them close to confirmed townie.

[Twistedarcher]

I remember reading on MafiaScum about some role where you had to switch out the person playing the role in the course of the game. For the life of me I can't remember what it was. I doubt that's what we have in lio/Jorbles but I think it's worth looking in to and I can't find it. Any help is appreciated.

Big ol' post coming up this morning.

I doubt this. He is inactive in other forum games as well.

[Voltgloss]

I remember reading on MafiaScum about some role where you had to switch out the person playing the role in the course of the game. For the life of me I can't remember what it was. I doubt that's what we have in lio/Jorbles but I think it's worth looking in to and I can't find it. Any help is appreciated.

Are you thinking of Judas (or Saulus)?  A town- (or scum-) aligned role who, upon death, is not declared dead but instead replaced by a new player who has the opposite alignment.

[Jorbles]

Lio: Switching his vote from EFHW to Ahoppy at the last minute at post 1449, then claiming that the EFHW lynch was not happening, despite EFHW being tied for the lead in vote count. On top of that, if you’re worried about lynch viability, why change to a target that has only one other vote? He did switch back when called on it. When I first read this, I gave it a very high scum read, though now I give it more of a moderate read. Also, Lio made several posts claiming that he thinks this is a mislynch, which really sounds like pandering for town cred. Strong scum read. Also, if scum, it would also implicate EFHW (moving vote away from scum-buddies?).

I get this, I thought his vote jumping at deadline was scummy too, but as far as I can tell (since I'm only able to interpret lio's actions) it was a town member trying to get a good lynch through and being active in voting, not scum trying to save a partner.