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[EFHW]

We have nkirbit up high enough that he will be lynched unless someone gets a lot more votes.  Are there any other strong candidates?  There are probably 5 or 6 more scum out there, right?

[Dsell]

Holy fridge how did I miss nkirbit get to 8 votes!?

That seemed really fast. Nkirbit kinda freaked out, yes, and I think ALL of this claiming business (not just nkirbit's part) has been nonsense, but I am still unconvinced that he's scum. He might be scummier than average but I do not think he is the best lynch for today.

TA has been really adamant that scum has been leading the charge against nkirbit, but I don't know that I agree...not because I necessarily think it's been a scum-free wagon but because I haven't seen anyone being really terribly outspoken against him. A lot of people have expressed suspicion and voted but TA, who in your mind has been leading this wagon? Who of them do you think is likely scum? To my eyes, this wagon formed rather naturally, and due to nkirbit's own actions, rather than anyone else's.

PPE: 10?!

[faust]

TA, why are you not listing nkirbit's possible scumslip?

Because I don't think it's a scumslip.

Well that may be, but it's definitely a facet of the nkirbit case, so why leaving it out when you list them?

[Voltgloss]

Voltgloss, you may need to steer us a bit in our lynch pool like Galz did in HP (by taking candidates off the table). I don't see anything happening to get us to focus otherwise. I'm viewed as too scummy for anyone to take my lynch pools seriously.

I've been working on my thoughts throughout the day and I will give them in due time.  That time's not yet, but it's soon.

Also:  self-pity grinds my gears.  Especially when you're not the guy with 8 votes on him.

Also also:  for the love of redacted stop suggesting that I "steer" things.

Sorry for suggesting a strategy I've seen work for town in the past.

Is there a game or game(s) in particular that you have in mind where an IC steering things on Day 1 has worked out well for town?  (I'm not being facetious.  If there is, I'd like to know about it.  I was gone for a while and so there could certainly be just such a case.)

[Voltaire]

Is there a game or game(s) in particular that you have in mind where an IC steering things on Day 1 has worked out well for town?  (I'm not being facetious.  If there is, I'd like to know about it.  I was gone for a while and so there could certainly be just such a case.)

Harry Potter. Galz. He wasn't a true IC but he claimed a town PR and was not countered. He steered the lynch at the end of the day down to a small pool that included scum. The fact we lynched scum was not a foregone conclusion, but looking back the choices he made were all beneficial. It's where I've been getting my "leave the active posters alive D1" thoughts from, etc.

[EFHW]

There was that blitz game Insomniac ran, where we changed targets at the last minute b/c of the IC, and got scum.  I think TA was IC then?

[faust]

Well that may be, but it's definitely a facet of the nkirbit case, so why leaving it out when you list them?

You're also ignoring the proposal to vig Galz, as I just noticed. To me it seems you only pick out the weaker arguments against nkirbit and ignore the stronger ones.

[nkirbit]

Voltgloss, you may need to steer us a bit in our lynch pool like Galz did in HP (by taking candidates off the table). I don't see anything happening to get us to focus otherwise. I'm viewed as too scummy for anyone to take my lynch pools seriously.

I've been working on my thoughts throughout the day and I will give them in due time.  That time's not yet, but it's soon.

Also:  self-pity grinds my gears.  Especially when you're not the guy with 8 votes on him.

Also also:  for the love of redacted stop suggesting that I "steer" things.

Sorry for suggesting a strategy I've seen work for town in the past.

Is there a game or game(s) in particular that you have in mind where an IC steering things on Day 1 has worked out well for town?  (I'm not being facetious.  If there is, I'd like to know about it.  I was gone for a while and so there could certainly be just such a case.)

I think it actually kind of makes more sense for an IC to steer in a game this huge than a smaller game, actually.  You do know the least out of every player in this game, there's no way around that fact.  But the information gap is much smaller here than it would be in a 13 person or 9 person game.

I still don't think people should be asking the IC who to vote for by any means.

As for recent success... not in the past few months, really.  There's one blitz game, but that's a different enough format that it doesn't apply here.  Although I don't think there's been a regular game with an IC since mean girls, so not that much data in the very recent past.

[nkirbit]

There was that blitz game Insomniac ran, where we changed targets at the last minute b/c of the IC, and got scum.  I think TA was IC then?

Ashersky ran it, myself and spirit bears were ICs.  But a game with 1 IC / 20 unknowns is so different from a game with 2 ICs / 6 unknowns that it's not even relevant to compare them, I don't think.

[Voltgloss]

Thanks, Voltaire and EFHW.

The common thread in both examples is timing.  Galz steered the lynch "at the end of the day."  The IC in blitz got town to "change[] targets at the last minute." 

As I said before:  I have been developing thoughts throughout the day, and they have been helped along by most of the town's willingness to chatter.  That's a good thing.  (You all know that I will prod relentlessly to get an inactive town moving.  I am very grateful I have not had to do that in this game.)

Tomorrow night is our "soft deadline."  I will be posting my comprehensive thoughts either this evening or early tomorrow morning.  That is NOT a signal for everyone to fall silent.  (I don't seriously think you all will, but it can't hurt to emphasize this.)

In particular, I've asked a question to those voting nkirbit.  I'd like it to be addressed.

[Voltaire]

As for recent success... not in the past few months, really.  There's one blitz game, but that's a different enough format that it doesn't apply here.  Although I don't think there's been a regular game with an IC since mean girls, so not that much data in the very recent past.

You all have amnesia. 

Note I did not tell Voltgloss to tell me who to vote for. I thought it would be a good idea if he took everyone's lynch pools down from 20 to something less than 20 as it's unclear if an nkirbit lynch will go through (and for personal reasons I'd prefer a couple other people than him, I know this might not be the case with everyone).

Yes, this does give scum cover if somehow we epicFail and create a pool with no scum. But the odds of that are so small, and most importantly, the more scum post, the more opportunities they have to incriminate themselves. Hence why (barring other things!) leaving the active posters alive is good. Because they're leaving a long trail to read.

[Twistedarcher]

Well that may be, but it's definitely a facet of the nkirbit case, so why leaving it out when you list them?

You're also ignoring the proposal to vig Galz, as I just noticed. To me it seems you only pick out the weaker arguments against nkirbit and ignore the stronger ones.

I left it out because it seemed pretty ridiculous to me, but now that I'm going back and looking at the votes, given that 5 people voted him for it, it's pretty significant. It just seemed ridiculously silly to me.

Serious question: Out of the 5 people who voted Nkirbit specifically for the scumslip (Mail-mi, Chairs, Xeiron, EFHW, bocaJ, and throw Faust in there too), how many of you have ever watched community? From what I've seen, people who have seen the show have understood Nkirbit's line of reasoning, so I'm curious if your difference in opinion on the slip comes from not having seen the show and immediately hearing study group and thinking of Jeff, Britta, Abed, etc., instead of the town-alignment study group.

Suggestion to Vig Galz I skimmed over and didn't catch until after the post, but once again, it's an anti-town action that you have tried to paint as scummy. It's Nkirbit's opinion on his belief of Galz' role. It's not an unreasonable one, either. Hell, in fact, it's a very reasonable one, given that there's a very good chance Galz is either scum himself, or his death hurts scum. Why is he scummy for debating vigging Galz, when we've debated lynching Galz out in the open?

[Twistedarcher]

Here's the votes for Nkirbit:

#476 mail-mi votes for scumslip
#483 Chairs votes for scumslip
#500 Xeiron votes for scumslip
#520 EFHW votes for scumslip
#591 bocaJ votes for scumslip
#694 Robz votes for saying he's not the vig
#700 Faust votes for vigging Galz
#706 Sudgy votes for not caring if town wins or not
#745 Walrus votes Nkirbit for his indignance

I don't think mail-mi was scummy, as he was the first to point out the slip. It truly looks like he believes it was a slip. I'm more cautious of the subsequent people piling onto the slip. For chairs, it would be an easy place to park his vote, and I haven't seen much from him on why Nkirbit is scummy beyond the slip. Xeiron seems more genuine in his mistrust of Nkirbit, and although I disagree with his likelihood of scum!Nkirbit WIFOM'ing us, he makes good points about it. EFHW I honestly don't remember much about her D1, or her other opinions on Nkirbit, I will need to re-read. I believe bocaJ's claim.

Out of the next four, I find Faust the most scummy, for reasons I've pointed out. However, in my eyes, all four of them (Walrus to a less degree, but still there) are voting Nkirbit for his anti-town behavior. That's a really easy excuse for scum to park their votes, especially on D1. Faust is my best bet for scum, but I'm suspicious of Robz and Sudgy as well, and I want to go re-read Chairs and EFHW.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.16:

Voltaire (1): shraeye
WalrusMcFishSr (2): AHoppy, Archetype
liopoil (1): Dsell
Galzria (2): mcmcsalot, liopoil
nkirbit (8): mail-mi, xeiron, EFHW, bocaJ, Robz888, faust, sudgy, Walrus
shraeye (2): chairs, Voltaire
chairs (1): nkirbit
sudgy (2): Galzria, Eevee
faust (1): Twistedarcher

Not Voting (1): Voltgloss

With 21 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on September 23 at 9:22 p.m.


N1 Greendale Glee Concert:

L Street (10):  liopoil, faust, EFHW, Robz888, Voltaire, mcmc, Eevee, Ahoppy, Dsell, shraeye
The Red Door (8):  Walrus, mail-mi, sudgy, Twistedarcher, Archetype, xeiron, chairs, Galzria

[xeiron]

Well that may be, but it's definitely a facet of the nkirbit case, so why leaving it out when you list them?

You're also ignoring the proposal to vig Galz, as I just noticed. To me it seems you only pick out the weaker arguments against nkirbit and ignore the stronger ones.

I left it out because it seemed pretty ridiculous to me, but now that I'm going back and looking at the votes, given that 5 people voted him for it, it's pretty significant. It just seemed ridiculously silly to me.

Serious question: Out of the 5 people who voted Nkirbit specifically for the scumslip (Mail-mi, Chairs, Xeiron, EFHW, bocaJ, and throw Faust in there too), how many of you have ever watched community? From what I've seen, people who have seen the show have understood Nkirbit's line of reasoning, so I'm curious if your difference in opinion on the slip comes from not having seen the show and immediately hearing study group and thinking of Jeff, Britta, Abed, etc., instead of the town-alignment study group.

Suggestion to Vig Galz I skimmed over and didn't catch until after the post, but once again, it's an anti-town action that you have tried to paint as scummy. It's Nkirbit's opinion on his belief of Galz' role. It's not an unreasonable one, either. Hell, in fact, it's a very reasonable one, given that there's a very good chance Galz is either scum himself, or his death hurts scum. Why is he scummy for debating vigging Galz, when we've debated lynching Galz out in the open?

I have not seen community, but have read a little about it for this game. I understand how 'study group' can make hin think of those seven.
What i don't understand is how he can read a town pm including the line "you win when all threats to the study group are eliminated" and then "it is almost like the study group are town" and then think the last one could be a sign that the seven players mentioned are town. Especially as nkirbit is a character from modern family, and not one of those seven.
My conclution is that nkirbit has not (carefully) read a town pm.
That can mean two things:
A. Nkirbit is scum.
B. Nkirbit did only skim his town pm.
I have earlier quoted nkirbit saying he pays special attention to flavour when ashersky are mod. This make A. More likely in my eyes.

Also note that during the discussion following nkirbit's slip, the mods updated page 1. This does not mean nkirbit is scum, but I see it as the mods admitting that they had not earlier mentioned study group = town anywhere for scum to see.

[bocaJ]

On the questions regarding my NK vote:

NK's explanation was "hey, I misunderstood what studygroup meant." I found that somewhat unlikely given that it had been mentioned both in the town PMs, and in the opening flavor. If he was still confused after seeing that in both places, he should have asked a mod. Also, if he had seen it in both places, I think he would have just put it together himself at the very least when he saw the bolded flavor and not have posted "interesting!" but I think that post does make sense if he had never gotten a PM that referenced studygroup, and didn't know that all the townies had gotten that post.

I have not seen community.

If at least four people who have seen community will back up NK and say "I've seen Community, and I understand his confusion and believe that he is not scum," I will unvote him.

[chairs]

Well that may be, but it's definitely a facet of the nkirbit case, so why leaving it out when you list them?

You're also ignoring the proposal to vig Galz, as I just noticed. To me it seems you only pick out the weaker arguments against nkirbit and ignore the stronger ones.

I left it out because it seemed pretty ridiculous to me, but now that I'm going back and looking at the votes, given that 5 people voted him for it, it's pretty significant. It just seemed ridiculously silly to me.

Serious question: Out of the 5 people who voted Nkirbit specifically for the scumslip (Mail-mi, Chairs, Xeiron, EFHW, bocaJ, and throw Faust in there too), how many of you have ever watched community? From what I've seen, people who have seen the show have understood Nkirbit's line of reasoning, so I'm curious if your difference in opinion on the slip comes from not having seen the show and immediately hearing study group and thinking of Jeff, Britta, Abed, etc., instead of the town-alignment study group.

Suggestion to Vig Galz I skimmed over and didn't catch until after the post, but once again, it's an anti-town action that you have tried to paint as scummy. It's Nkirbit's opinion on his belief of Galz' role. It's not an unreasonable one, either. Hell, in fact, it's a very reasonable one, given that there's a very good chance Galz is either scum himself, or his death hurts scum. Why is he scummy for debating vigging Galz, when we've debated lynching Galz out in the open?

I've seen neither show.

I'm also voting shraeye at this point, not nkirbit, because I too believe the nkirbit wagon got too big too fast.

[nkirbit]

What i don't understand is how he can read a town pm including the line "you win when all threats to the study group are eliminated"

Since we are apparently allowed to quote directly from our PM to try and implicate me, can I start quoting directly from the PM to defend myself?  Or can we have a mod ruling telling players to cut this stuff out.  It's not the first time discussing specific language in the PM, and it's unfair unless I'm allowed to defend myself similarly.

[Voltgloss]

General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.

I do think we need a mod ruling on whether xeiron has broken this rule and what the consequences are.  I don't think allowing everyone to start quoting their PMs is the answer, though.

[nkirbit]

No, it's not, and it's why I'm not supplying any information about anything that's in mine.  It's a line that others have been approaching in this conversation, and Xeiron did cross it.

I just want the mods to issue a cease and desist warning.

[Voltgloss]

I would also like to hear from the remaining nkirbit voters why they find unconvincing nkirbit's explanation about his "scumslip."

[ashersky]

Thread locked.

[ashersky]

xeiron has been modkilled due to a serious rules violation.  He was Shirley Bennett, Moral Compass (Forced-Claim Cop).

Day 1 will continue with the same deadline.  With 20 alive, it still takes 11 to lynch.  Votes have NOT been reset.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.17:

Voltaire (1): shraeye
WalrusMcFishSr (2): AHoppy, Archetype
liopoil (1): Dsell
Galzria (2): mcmcsalot, liopoil
nkirbit (7): mail-mi, EFHW, bocaJ, Robz888, faust, sudgy, Walrus
shraeye (2): chairs, Voltaire
chairs (1): nkirbit
sudgy (2): Galzria, Eevee
faust (1): Twistedarcher

Not Voting (1): Voltgloss

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on September 23 at 9:22 p.m.


N1 Greendale Glee Concert:

L Street (10):  liopoil, faust, EFHW, Robz888, Voltaire, mcmc, Eevee, Ahoppy, Dsell, shraeye
The Red Door (7):  Walrus, mail-mi, sudgy, Twistedarcher, Archetype, chairs, Galzria

[Archetype]

...another PR.

But shoot. This sucks hardcore. Both for us and him. I don't understand what 'force-claim' could entail, but he was still a Cop.