Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...  (Read 7419 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« on: August 28, 2013, 09:34:15 pm »
0

I couldn't find a set this would fit under, so I'm putting it here (there's probably a bajillion cards with this name):

Metropolis
$6 Action
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
-----
You may not gain this if you have any Metropolises in play.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 09:50:25 pm »
0

I'd say that it fits Prosperity as a strong expensive card.

You should only restrict people from buying it, or it may conflict with other cards that force gaining (e.g. Jester, or various gainers like University or Workshop after some cost reduction).  Or you can use "would gain", e.g. "When you would gain this, if you have any Metropolises in play, gain a Gold instead."
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 09:54:17 pm »
0

it also creates a tiny prosperity theme of vanilla actions costing 6 that have a buy restriction.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 10:20:30 pm »
+1

Well it's too late to put it in anyway...

I'd say that it fits Prosperity as a strong expensive card.

You should only restrict people from buying it, or it may conflict with other cards that force gaining (e.g. Jester, or various gainers like University or Workshop after some cost reduction).  Or you can use "would gain", e.g. "When you would gain this, if you have any Metropolises in play, gain a Gold instead."

I didn't want you to be able to gain it with gainers/TfB, so I said gain instead of buy.  I think saying gaining would still be fine.

1. Try to gain Metropolis
2. Check if Metropolises are in play
3. If they are, then you fail to gain it, just like you fail to gain a $1 cost card with Upgrade and such.
4. If they aren't, you gain the Metropolis.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 10:24:46 pm »
+1

Well it's too late to put it in anyway...

I'd say that it fits Prosperity as a strong expensive card.

You should only restrict people from buying it, or it may conflict with other cards that force gaining (e.g. Jester, or various gainers like University or Workshop after some cost reduction).  Or you can use "would gain", e.g. "When you would gain this, if you have any Metropolises in play, gain a Gold instead."

I didn't want you to be able to gain it with gainers/TfB, so I said gain instead of buy.  I think saying gaining would still be fine.

1. Try to gain Metropolis
2. Check if Metropolises are in play
3. If they are, then you fail to gain it, just like you fail to gain a $1 cost card with Upgrade and such.
4. If they aren't, you gain the Metropolis.

It's not the same.  Upgrade says "gain a $1 card" but there aren't any, so it's impossible.  Jester says "gain a Metropolis".  If it's in the supply, it is possible.  If a Metropolis is in play, it says you can't.  Now you have to choose to break the rules on either Metropolis or Jester.  It's not a given (from existing Dominion rules) that Metropolis takes precedence.  Note that Grand Market only restricts on Buy, not Gain.  At the end of the day, you can make this ruling via FAQ if you want.  Or you could use "would gain".
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 10:27:48 pm »
0

Well it's too late to put it in anyway...

I'd say that it fits Prosperity as a strong expensive card.

You should only restrict people from buying it, or it may conflict with other cards that force gaining (e.g. Jester, or various gainers like University or Workshop after some cost reduction).  Or you can use "would gain", e.g. "When you would gain this, if you have any Metropolises in play, gain a Gold instead."

I didn't want you to be able to gain it with gainers/TfB, so I said gain instead of buy.  I think saying gaining would still be fine.

1. Try to gain Metropolis
2. Check if Metropolises are in play
3. If they are, then you fail to gain it, just like you fail to gain a $1 cost card with Upgrade and such.
4. If they aren't, you gain the Metropolis.

It's not the same.  Upgrade says "gain a $1 card" but there aren't any, so it's impossible.  Jester says "gain a Metropolis".  If it's in the supply, it is possible.  If a Metropolis is in play, it says you can't.  Now you have to choose to break the rules on either Metropolis or Jester.  It's not a given (from existing Dominion rules) that Metropolis takes precedence.  Note that Grand Market only restricts on Buy, not Gain.  At the end of the day, you can make this ruling via FAQ if you want.  Or you could use "would gain".

I still feel like the wording on Metropolis shows that it's impossible to gain a Metropolis.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 10:29:15 pm »
0

"While this card is in play, when you would gain a Metropolis..."

... gain a Duchy instead?
... gain a Silver instead?
... gain an Action card costing less instead?
... gain a Curse instead?
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 10:31:00 pm »
+1

"While this card is in play, when you would gain a Metropolis..."

... gain a Duchy instead?
... gain a Silver instead?
... gain an Action card costing less instead?
... gain a Curse instead?

It would be simpler and more what I was wanting if you don't gain anything...  I'm wanting the card to be pretty simple.

Also, I find it funny how when anybody posts a card, people bring it down through showing it's over/underpowered, but here it's just the wording somewhere...  Nobody's even said what they think of the card.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 10:40:58 pm »
0

"While this card is in play, when you would gain a Metropolis..."

... gain a Duchy instead?
... gain a Silver instead?
... gain an Action card costing less instead?
... gain a Curse instead?

It would be simpler and more what I was wanting if you don't gain anything...  I'm wanting the card to be pretty simple.

Also, I find it funny how when anybody posts a card, people bring it down through showing it's over/underpowered, but here it's just the wording somewhere...  Nobody's even said what they think of the card.

I think it's probably fine?  As you probably realize, the general concept isn't new and it's even commonly named "Metropolis" since it is basically a big City.  It certainly can't cost $5.  Not sure about $6 or $7, while you have $6 with a restriction.  It is probably fine.  The restriction means nothing for the first copy, and probably doesn't mean much for the second either.  Makes it hard to accumulate a lot though.



Re: possible "gain instead", a neat interaction with more expensive items (Gold, Duchy, Silver in very rare cases) is that it can let you afford those cards when you otherwise might not via Quarry. :P
Logged

Aidan Millow

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 110
  • Respect: +116
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2013, 12:12:36 am »
0

Personally I think it should just be a buy prevention; part of the fun of Grand Market is getting around the no-buy cause with with gaining. Also, I feel like the plural of metropolis should be metropoli.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 12:14:53 am »
0

Spellcheck says metropolises is correct.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2013, 12:50:12 am »
+1

Also, I feel like the plural of metropolis should be metropoli.

The plural of something in -is is never ever ever in -i.
Logged

Aidan Millow

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 110
  • Respect: +116
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2013, 01:00:27 am »
0

But it should be.
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 01:04:44 am »
0

Logged

Aidan Millow

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 110
  • Respect: +116
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2013, 01:12:03 am »
0

I don't mean in the formal gramatical sense (I presume you're correct in that sense) but it feels right.
Logged

TWoos

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • Respect: +89
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2013, 06:02:04 am »
0

It would be simpler and more what I was wanting if you don't gain anything...  I'm wanting the card to be pretty simple.

Also, I find it funny how when anybody posts a card, people bring it down through showing it's over/underpowered, but here it's just the wording somewhere...  Nobody's even said what they think of the card.

It's a fairly simple card, powerful, but probably priced about right.  It could cost $7, and still get purchased, but I'd test it at $6 first.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2013, 02:28:09 pm »
0

"While this card is in play, when you would gain a Metropolis..."

... gain a Duchy instead?
... gain a Silver instead?
... gain an Action card costing less instead?
... gain a Curse instead?

It would be simpler and more what I was wanting if you don't gain anything...  I'm wanting the card to be pretty simple.

Also, I find it funny how when anybody posts a card, people bring it down through showing it's over/underpowered, but here it's just the wording somewhere...  Nobody's even said what they think of the card.

I think it's probably fine?  As you probably realize, the general concept isn't new and it's even commonly named "Metropolis" since it is basically a big City.  It certainly can't cost $5.  Not sure about $6 or $7, while you have $6 with a restriction.  It is probably fine.  The restriction means nothing for the first copy, and probably doesn't mean much for the second either.  Makes it hard to accumulate a lot though.

Looking back on this, making it hard to accumulate a lot was the exact thing that I felt like needed to fix +2 Cards +2 Actions.  By itself, you could buy a bunch of them and you have an uber engine (like Cities).  You can't make an uber engine with only four or something of them, but it's still a good card.  It's probably best with things like a bunch of Highways and/or Bridges to buy a bunch at once, and with engines that are already fairly good and you don't need to play the Metropolises to get them.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2013, 10:31:21 pm »
0

Maybe you could say:

"While this card is in play, the Metropolis pile is not part of the Supply."

That seems to shut down buying and gaining without causing contradictions.  Although it does have some further consequences, like you can't return one via Ambassador and if the Metropolis were empty it wouldn't count toward activating Cities.  You would still be able to recover them from the trash with Graverobber or Rogue, but I think you could live with that.
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 10:46:29 pm »
0

I still feel like saying what I said works.  When coppers are in play, Grand Market is unbuyable.  You can't even try to.  So, when Metropolises are in play, you can't even start to gain it, you wouldn't even ever "would gain" it.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 10:47:42 pm by sudgy »
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2013, 10:55:19 pm »
+2

The difference is that there are no cards which tell you to buy something.  There are, however, cards which tell you to gain.  It is just like when people suggest hypothetical cards which may not be played in certain instances.  What happens when Golem draws that card?  Which card's rule is broken?  Grand Market's buy restriction never contradicts another rule.
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2013, 11:22:06 pm »
0

I just feel like the simplest wording is the best, and I think that this is at least self-explanatory enough.

If I were to change it, I would say "When you gain this, if you have any Metropolises in play, return this to the supply."
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2013, 02:07:13 am »
0

Also, I feel like the plural of metropolis should be metropoli.

The plural of something in -is is never ever ever in -i.

You sound a bit testi about this. 
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1832
  • Shuffle iT Username: Drab Emordnilap
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1886
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2013, 05:57:10 am »
0

The difference is that there are no cards which tell you to buy something.

Black Market?
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2013, 07:40:44 am »
0

The difference is that there are no cards which tell you to buy something.

Black Market?

...tells you you may buy something, and doesn't stipulate what.
Logged

ConMan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
  • Respect: +1705
    • View Profile
Re: A card that doesn't fit in the contest...
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2013, 07:35:32 pm »
+2

Surely the point of *every* card is to do something the rules don't otherwise let you do? "Can I draw some cards in the middle of my turn? No? But I just played Smithy that says I can." "Can I buy that Grand Market? No, because it says I can't because of the Coppers I played."

So I don't see a problem with the card as worded. Sure there are no other cards with that wording, but that just means that you need to provide a more detailed explanation in the rules. Have the card say "You can't [buy or] gain this if you have a Metropolis in play", and then in the rules explain that it means that for the purpose of gaining (and "would gaining") cards, Metropolis effectively doesn't exist. I've added the "buy or" to avoid the silliness of spending $6 only to fail at gaining the card.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 1.54 seconds with 21 queries.