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ta56636

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Honours
« on: August 28, 2013, 04:45:51 pm »
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Honours
These are spread out in a fan and can be bought in any order - there is one of each type
They are part of the kingdom

I quite like this idea because they are self balancing - the less popular a card is (i.e. bought later) the cheaper it is.

Not sure if they are too powerful though, but you can see the basic syntax.


New card versions posted lower down



Gold Trophy
+1 Card
+1 Action
if you do not play any treasure cards this turn: +$3
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour

Silver Trophy
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may reveal a silver from your hand
if you do +$2
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour

Copper Trophy
+1 Card
+1 Action
if you trash a card from your hand: + $1
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour

Exhibition
+1 Card
+1 Action
if you play no duplicate cards this turn: take a Coin Token
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This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour

Livery
+1 Card
+1 Action
if at the end of your buy phase you have no cards in your hand and no excess actions, coin or buys: Gain a Duchy
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour

Charter of Franchise
+ 1 Action
Reveal your hand
if there are at least 4 cards and no duplicates: +2 cards
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This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour

Fayre
+1 Card
+1 Action
if you've played more than 3 actions (including this one): +1 Buy, Gain a card costing up to 4 that is not an honour
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour

Benefice
+1 Card
+1 Action
if you've played a copper, silver and a gold this turn: +1 VP token
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour

Shire
+1 Card
+1 Action
if you do not buy anything this turn: Gain 2 honours & 2 coppers
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Worth 1 VP for every honour in your deck
Action - Victory - Honour

Call to Arms
+1 Card
+1 Action
if you discard a card: Each other player must discard down to 3 cards
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Attack - Honour
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:58:07 am by ta56636 »
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ta56636

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Re: Honours
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 04:47:38 pm »
+1

Sorry this is meant to be in cards/variants - if anyone was able to move it...
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sudgy

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Re: Honours
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 04:50:09 pm »
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I haven't looked at them all, but looking at the gold trophy, with the current wording, you get the +$3 at the end of your turn.  You obviously don't want that.  It should probably say, "At the start of your buy phase, you may get +$3.  If you do, you may not play any treasures."
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ta56636

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Re: Honours
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 04:59:42 pm »
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Yep - you're probably right - although at this stage I'm more interested in responses about the overall idea: I'm sure there's lots of fiddling to do with the individual cards...
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Honours
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 05:12:03 pm »
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I like the general concept, but most of them have problems.  In particular, a lot of them just aren't worded clearly.

Gold Trophy - Sudgy already pointed it out, but when do you get the +$3?  To be consistent with other Dominion cards, you should get it when you play the card, but at that point you don't know whether you will be playing treasure cards this turn.  It should probably be something more like "+1 card, +1 action, +$3; If you play any treasure cards during your buy phase, -$3 (but not less than $0)."  That's a little weird, but we've had precedence for minus coin from Poor House.  It interacts a little differently with things like Procession and Black Market, but it's not a big deal.

Silver Trophy - I think this is way too strong.  It's a Conspirator that activates much more easily, and if it doesn't, at least it's still a cantrip.

Copper Trophy - Not quite sure what this is trying to say?  I think you mean "+1 card, +1 action; [line] While this is in play, if you trash a card from your hand, +$1."  If it stacks (+$1 per card trashed) it might be too strong.  If it doesn't stack it's too weak.

Exhibition - When do I check to see if I played no duplicates?  If it's when I play the Exhibition, then it's only a little worse than Baker, and probably too similar to Baker to be interesting.  (If that's the case, it should probably say "If you have no duplicate cards in play, take a coin token.")  If it's supposed to check after your buy phase, then it needs to be re-worded, and it's also very weak (almost always just a cantrip), but maybe interesting if you increase the reward.

Livery - Maybe okay balance-wise (but probably very hard to trigger).

Charter of Franchise - This is strictly worse than Menagerie?  In many (maybe most?) games it won't get bought at any price; in general you would have to activate it more than half the time in order to prefer having it in your deck to not having it in your deck.

Fayre - Probably okay balance-wise.  It should specify "...three or more actions this turn".

Benefice - Again, the timing is not specified.  Presumably, it doesn't check until after your buy phase (otherwise the only way to trigger it would be with Black Market).  It should say "+1 card, +1 action; At the start of your clean-up phase, if you have a Copper, a Silver, and a Gold in play, +1 VP."  I don't think I like the idea of having only one card in the supply that can give VP tokens, so that might be a concern.

Shire - I think the victory half makes it too strong.  Without that it's probably okay.

Call to Arms - Again no timing specified.  Should be "+1 card, +1 action; [line] While this is in play, if you discard a card, each other player discards down to three cards in hand.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Honours
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 05:41:45 pm »
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On every card, you should capitalize "Honours" in the text below the line (and anywhere else you mention it as a type, e.g. in Fayre).

Gold Trophy -- All official cards either do everything right when you play them, or they use a "while this is in play" clause, or they specify a future time (most notable being Duration cards, which specify "at the start of your next turn").  It's easy to understand how you intend it to function though, so maybe it's still OK.  sudgy's wording uggestion may be a better thing to do though.

Copper Trophy -- Should read, "You may trash a card from your hand.  If you do, +$1."  (PPE: scott points out an alternate interpretation, in which case it should use a "while this is in play" wording.)

Exhibition -- Same issue as Gold Trophy.  Actually a little worse.  With Gold Trophy, at least you know that the condition should be evaluated in your Buy phase.  Exhibition has some strange timing issues though.  Suppose you enter the Buy phase.  Can you take a coin token if you hadn't yet played any duplicates?  Some might say no -- since your turn is not over, you might still play duplicates; you can't check the condition until the end of your turn.  But others might say that you can if you don't play any more Treasure (or at least, no duplicate Treasure).  It is kind of awkward.

Benefice -- This is an incredibly narrow card.  It will only ever grant +1VP in a game with Black Market.  Perhaps you mean to do another "future" condition, in which case you need to be extra careful with your wording.

Shire -- A single VP card?  Ehhhh.  Will elaborate more on this below.

Call to Arms -- Should read, "You may discard a card.  If you do, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand."





Overall -- the concept is interesting, but there are issues.  One is that they are not actually self-balancing.  Hypothetically, imagine that we have a stack of Victory cards with the same pricing mechanic as your Honour cards.  One of them is worth 100VP.  The others are worth different amounts all less than 10VP (maybe some are negative).  OK, that first one is the most expensive, but it is also massively better than the rest.  Hopefully it is clear that this is not at all balanced.

With your Honour cards, the balance between cards is much closer.  Nonetheless, there will be boards where one particular Honour is just much better than the rest.

That isn't to say that the idea isn't workable.  Knights can have similar issues (e.g. Anna on a board with no other trashing).  But the issue may be exacerbated with these Honours because 1. they are all available, unlike Knights where you don't get to pick what's on top; 2. they are all actually quite different, whereas Knights all share the same main attack function; and 3. Knights have a bit of a mitigation mechanic in that they can trash each other.

So this is something to keep in mind.  Just because the cost will go down doesn't mean that the cards are balanced.  The one single VP card stands out to me as particularly prone to imbalance.  The Honour cards do not seem super strong in general, but they are all cantrips so they are all quite safe to pick up.  I imagine that quite often a good play will be to pick up that Shire early and then use it to gain all the other Honours for a sweet 10VP.  Opponents could respond by buying the cards themselves, but if none of them are powerful for them then it just slows them down in the long run.  The Copper gaining from Shire is usually a penalty, but on some boards it is not.  Eh, maybe it isn't really a big deal, but it just strikes me as something to be wary about.

One more issue is how much time will need to be spent reviewing each of these cards, especially for newer players.  They are fairly diverse and since they are all available to purchase, a player may feel compelled to review every card when they buy.  That's a lot of reading to do.  With Knights, players only need to check whichever one is on top.

Oh, for the purpose of TfB cards, you need to specify an actual cost on the card.  The simplest way to get the same effect is probably to cost it as 0* and have it read, "this costs $1 more for every 2 Honour cards remaining in the Supply."
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AJD

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Re: Honours
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 06:11:43 pm »
+1

Gold Trophy -- All official cards either do everything right when you play them, or they use a "while this is in play" clause, or they specify a future time (most notable being Duration cards, which specify "at the start of your next turn").  It's easy to understand how you intend it to function though, so maybe it's still OK.  sudgy's wording uggestion may be a better thing to do though.

"At the beginning of your Buy phase, you may discard your hand. If you do, +$3."

It interacts differently with Farmland, Tunnel, and maybe one or two other things, but seems like the simplest way to get the desired effect.
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ta56636

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Re: Honours
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 06:53:19 pm »
+1

Thanks for your feedback.  I'll try and have a look at all the card descriptions, wording and balancing as suggested, as this seems to be a sticking point.

The aim of these cards is for them *all things being equal* to be generally balanced: and then given the kingdom cards their relative value to fluctuate to make some more desirable then others.  I would even imagine a scenario where no-one would want to purchase at the starting 5 price, because of a) better 5s, and b) not to let someone else have an equally good one at 4.  But above those aims: I'd like the cards to 90% of the time offer a range of different ways of enhancing different strategies/combos.
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Asper

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Re: Honours
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 07:44:34 pm »
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I think i like the general concept and don't really see it as a problem. Knights are all pretty much the same, but they also all (except for one) cost the same. I feel making them too close to each other power wise would actually be a bad thing - "Allright, i could buy X, because it's better than Y, but then Tom will get Y for 1$ less, and that actually makes his a better deal than mine".

Also i think Livery is horribly weak. Triggering it on purpose is almost impossible, and it even anti-self-synergizes as every Duchy you gain increases your chances of having a dead card in hand you can't even discard willingly.
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ta56636

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Re: Honours
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2013, 09:59:21 am »
+1

New card versions: I've taken a bit more time with the wording, so hopefully they'll be a bit nearer the mark.


Gold Trophy, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
While this is in play, if you have no cards in your hand and no actions remaining: +$3
(Action, not Action cards)
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour


Silver Trophy, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard an action card from your hand.
If you do +$2.
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour


Copper Trophy, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may reveal a Copper from your hand.
If you do, + $1.
----------
This costs half the number of Honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour


Exhibition, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
When you discard this from play, if you have not played any duplicate cards this turn, take 2 Coin Tokens.
----------
This costs half the number of Honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour


Benefice, $?
+ 1 Action
+ 1 Card
Reveal your hand.
If there are no duplicates in it, gain a Duchy.
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour


Fayre, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
If you've played more than 3 actions this turn (counting this): +1 Buy, Gain a card costing up to 4 that is not an Honour.
----------
This costs half the number of Honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour


Livery, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
When you discard this from play, if you have had a Copper, Silver and a Gold in play this turn:  gain a Copper, Silver and Gold, putting them on top of your deck in any order.
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour


Call to Arms, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card.
If you do, each other player discards down to 4 cards in hand.
----------
This costs half the number of Honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Attack - Honour


Shire, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
When you discard this from play, if you didn’t buy any cards this turn, gain 2 Honours and a Ruins.
----------
This costs half the number of Honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Worth 1 VP for every 2 honour in your deck (rounded down)
Action - Victory - Honour


Charter of Franchise, $?
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal a card from your hand.
If it is representative of a person or people, gain another copy of it.
----------
This costs half the number of honours left in the supply (rounded down)
Action - Honour
----------
Setup: Decide as a group which kingdom cards in the supply this would apply to.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 04:20:48 pm by ta56636 »
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ta56636

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Re: Honours
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2013, 04:19:53 pm »
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Any thoughts on these before I print them out and give them a go?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Honours
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2013, 08:00:43 pm »
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Gold Trophy still has confusing wording.  "While this is in play" indicates a persistent effect, "if..." is a condition that is normally interpreted as single instance, and "+$3" is an effect that only occurs once.  I imagine that you mean for the condition to be continuously checked until it is fulfilled, at which point the player gets the bonus once.  I would suggest the following wording:

"The first time you have no cards in your hand and no actions remaining this turn: +$3".

Still a bit of a mouthful.  "The first time... this turn" informs the player that the condition may be fulfilled at any time this turn.  "first time" indicates that it can only happen once, and it protects against confusing situations involving, for example, Golem-Tactician-(non-terminal draw).


Livery's effect is quite strange.  Not at all sure of its balance.

Shire needs to have the Looter type, or else you cannot guarantee that the Ruins pile will even be in the supply.

The condition "representative of a person" on Charter of Franchise is quite strange.  It makes the setup rule necessary, but that is also odd.  The decisions of the group will have an impact on the power of the card and thus the balance of the game (e.g. if it's very strong then it adds significantly to first player advantage).  Plus it could foster weird political debates ("Nobles isn't representative of people, it's just a construct of classist society!").  I don't know. :P

Other than that, I think the broad concerns mentioned above still apply.  Balance is tough to figure, and the setup is tough on people unfamiliar with the card and can really slow the game down as everyone repeatedly reads the cards.
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ta56636

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Re: Honours
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 05:57:19 pm »
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Thanks for your suggestion about Gold.

I agree that it's going to not be a new player friendly pile (but then that's hardly unique in Dominion).  For me, since there is only one of every card, unless it's some kind of weird pin/golden deck, it only going to enhance a strategy rather than create one.

I think the key flaw as to whether this works or not is whether it's be worth the first 5$ buy to get the ball rolling so to speak.

I might alter Shire back to Copper rather than Ruin.

I've done the card art so hopefully will get a chance to play test it soon...

PS. I think Nobles it quite clear - nobles refers to the people and nobility the class.  I think Harem is much trickier as I believe it can refer to both the physical space, and the people in the space.
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Mr.Oatmeal

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Re: Honours
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 06:36:37 pm »
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I really love the idea behind these cards and the pricing.  If any playtesting is done, I'd love to hear about it.
Here are some thoughts I had as I read over the cards.

Gold Trophy:  Preface - I've sat here thinking way too hard about this card.  I don't know what to think anymore.  The following two points were written before my brain kept going in loops:
First of all, I think the wording would be much easier if it activated at the beginning of the buy phase.  "While this is in play at the beginning of your buy phase, if you have no cards in your hand, and no unused Actions +$3"  (You do still need the "while this is in play" if you want to avoid crazy cash-ins for TR or KC)
Secondly, how often would this get activated?  It seems like this would very rarely be met, unless Storeroom or another similar card was on the board (is that the point?).  I think it would be a quality card without the "nothing in hand" clause - just if you have no unused actions +$3.  It would certainly be more powerful that way, but it would certainly get the ball rolling with the Honours.  With doing it this way, you could also make it +2 actions so you need more than one terminal, but now I've significantly changed your card...

For Benfice, Fayre and Livery, I would make the gaining a may gain.  Otherwise, people may choose to not play them - which is OK, but it seems that not really what you're going for since all of the Honours are cantrips. 

After saying all of that; great work.  And I understand that having some of the Honours be helpful on some boards and not on others is what makes your variable pricing interesting, so maybe the best idea is ignoring everything I just said. 
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ta56636

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Re: Honours
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2013, 05:15:26 pm »
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I really love the idea behind these cards and the pricing.  If any playtesting is done, I'd love to hear about it.
Here are some thoughts I had as I read over the cards.

Gold Trophy:  Preface - I've sat here thinking way too hard about this card.  I don't know what to think anymore.  The following two points were written before my brain kept going in loops:
First of all, I think the wording would be much easier if it activated at the beginning of the buy phase.  "While this is in play at the beginning of your buy phase, if you have no cards in your hand, and no unused Actions +$3"  (You do still need the "while this is in play" if you want to avoid crazy cash-ins for TR or KC)
Secondly, how often would this get activated?  It seems like this would very rarely be met, unless Storeroom or another similar card was on the board (is that the point?).  I think it would be a quality card without the "nothing in hand" clause - just if you have no unused actions +$3.  It would certainly be more powerful that way, but it would certainly get the ball rolling with the Honours.  With doing it this way, you could also make it +2 actions so you need more than one terminal, but now I've significantly changed your card...

For Benfice, Fayre and Livery, I would make the gaining a may gain.  Otherwise, people may choose to not play them - which is OK, but it seems that not really what you're going for since all of the Honours are cantrips. 

After saying all of that; great work.  And I understand that having some of the Honours be helpful on some boards and not on others is what makes your variable pricing interesting, so maybe the best idea is ignoring everything I just said.

Thanks for your thoughts Mr Oatmeal.  I do plan to play test these at some point, but I'm a little unhappy with a few of the specific cards.  (I also agree with your 'may gain' suggestion).

I think that Gold Trophy, Call to Arms, Charter of Franchise, Livery all need greater or lesser work.

I actually feel that Shire (despite valid criticisms above) is one of the most rounded cards (I've made it a copper rather than a Ruins BTW) and at least some of the others need a little beefing up to also make them valid choices for the first buy of 5.
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