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Author Topic: Help Me Untangle This Board  (Read 3684 times)

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Young Nick

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Help Me Untangle This Board
« on: August 26, 2013, 10:50:11 pm »
+1

I played this board recently. The key players here are Rebuild, Knights, Duke, and Feodum. There's other stuff, namely Lab and Stables, but here's my problem:

I don't really understand Rebuild/Duke interactions.
I don't really understand Rebuild/Feodum interactions.
I don't really understand Rebuild/Knights interactions.
I don't really understand Knights/Alt VP interactions.

So yeah, help me out. I ended up going for Knights hoping to trash yed's Rebuilds and Duchies, but he picked up enough Feoda(sp?) that it wasn't an issue for him. I figured I could trash enough of his stuff that Rebuild wouldn't be fast enough and I could pick up enough VP's via Dukes to stay competitive. It didn't end up working out that way.

What's the best strategy? It seems like a whole bunch of RPS here so what opening would leave me most flexible? I would guess Storeroom/Silver but maybe Silver/Silver would be better considering that 5 is a key price point and Storeroom's terminal draw isn't good here.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 12:04:00 am »
0

I played this board recently. The key players here are Rebuild, Knights, Duke, and Feodum. There's other stuff, namely Lab and Stables, but here's my problem:

I don't really understand Rebuild/Duke interactions.
I don't really understand Rebuild/Feodum interactions.
I don't really understand Rebuild/Knights interactions.
I don't really understand Knights/Alt VP interactions.

So yeah, help me out. I ended up going for Knights hoping to trash yed's Rebuilds and Duchies, but he picked up enough Feoda(sp?) that it wasn't an issue for him. I figured I could trash enough of his stuff that Rebuild wouldn't be fast enough and I could pick up enough VP's via Dukes to stay competitive. It didn't end up working out that way.

What's the best strategy? It seems like a whole bunch of RPS here so what opening would leave me most flexible? I would guess Storeroom/Silver but maybe Silver/Silver would be better considering that 5 is a key price point and Storeroom's terminal draw isn't good here.

In isolation:
  • Rebuild beats knights
  • Rebuild/Feodum is strong
  • Rebuild/Duke is overpowering
I don't think combining these three changes the situation too much. Rebuild/Feodum might be a little better against Knights than Rebuild/Duke is, but knights are the third-best strategy anyway. Rebuild/Duke should beat Rebuild/Feodum pretty handily, since the latter isn't great at gaining Duchies.

It's worth checking out SheCantSayNo's posts and sample games on Rebuild/Duke, but basically you spend your $5 hands on Rebuild (and not Duchy) and buy a lot of Estates. The alternative route to Provinces make the Duchy split less important and makes both Estate and Rebuild stronger than usual. Mostly protect Duchy when you play Rebuild.

Neither Storeroom nor Moneylender is a great Rebuild enabler. I'd go Silver/Silver over Silver/Smugglers in an ordinary Rebuild game, but with Duke there are going to be a lot more $2-$5 gains, so I think I like Silver/Smugglers best.
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Young Nick

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 12:09:48 am »
0

I like these thoughts, but I guess I am curious as to how this would turn out in the mirror. Getting the Duchy split would be huge, obviously. After that, protect Duchies and go Estate->Duke->Province, I suppose, while being especially conscious of piles.

How is it that despite owning Dark Ages and it being so much older, I still get more confused by it than I do by Guilds? Especially Knights and Rebuild.

-__-
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lespeutere

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 05:27:26 am »
0

I like these thoughts, but I guess I am curious as to how this would turn out in the mirror. Getting the Duchy split would be huge, obviously. After that, protect Duchies and go Estate->Duke->Province, I suppose, while being especially conscious of piles.

How is it that despite owning Dark Ages and it being so much older, I still get more confused by it than I do by Guilds? Especially Knights and Rebuild.

-__-

Is it that huge? From what ragingduckd said (spend 5$ on rebuilds, buy lots of estates), it doesn't look like it is. You eventually don't want dukes to be worth alot but you want to win on provinces, as I understand it.

As for your confusion: I think it's because DA just has many more cards and they haven't been played on iso. There is not that much of a consensus with respect to how to play these cards as there aren't so many detailed articles on these cards.
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SCSN

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 06:35:58 am »
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In a normal Rebuild game, you vie for Duchies to both get the most points immediately and the most options for 3VP Rebuild plays (Duchy -> Province). In these games any Estate that remains after the Duchies are gone is a liability because it decreases the expected return of your Rebuilds by occasionally being forced to Rebuild Estate -> Estate for a 0VP gain.

In a Duke game, however, those Estates remain useful to the point that you want to get alot of them, as even splitting the Duchies now allows for a 3VP gain by Rebuilding Estate -> Duke, which is as good as Duchy -> Province in a normal Rebuild game. As a consequence, in Duke games you actually want as few Provinces as possible in your deck, as here Province serves the same role as Estates in a normal game: your inability to protect them decreases the expectation of your Rebuild plays. However, beyond not discarding Dukes with sifters or in the face of a discard attack, there's very little you can do to avoid gaining Provinces because Duchies should always be protected over Dukes.

Rebuild-Duke games usually end with a Duchy/Estate/Duke 3-pile, in that order.
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SCSN

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 07:11:03 am »
0

It's worth checking out SheCantSayNo's posts and sample games on Rebuild/Duke, but basically you spend your $5 hands on Rebuild (and not Duchy) and buy a lot of Estates. The alternative route to Provinces make the Duchy split less important and makes both Estate and Rebuild stronger than usual.

I don't agree with this btw, Duke makes winning the Duchy split more important than ever; winning it is pretty much game over. Being able to Rebuild Estate -> Duke for a 4VP gain and having a decent prospect at grabbing a few 5VP Dukes directly is fantastic.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 07:16:32 am »
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It's worth checking out SheCantSayNo's posts and sample games on Rebuild/Duke, but basically you spend your $5 hands on Rebuild (and not Duchy) and buy a lot of Estates. The alternative route to Provinces make the Duchy split less important and makes both Estate and Rebuild stronger than usual.

I don't agree with this btw, Duke makes winning the Duchy split more important than ever; winning it is pretty much game over. Being able to Rebuild Estate -> Duke for a 4VP gain and having a decent prospect at grabbing a few 5VP Dukes directly is fantastic.

Then you'd buy Duchy over Rebuild? It seems wrong to me since Rebuild is so valuable with an alternate 5VP card available, but I actually haven't played many (any?) Rebuild-Duke mirrors.
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SCSN

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 07:24:22 am »
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It's worth checking out SheCantSayNo's posts and sample games on Rebuild/Duke, but basically you spend your $5 hands on Rebuild (and not Duchy) and buy a lot of Estates. The alternative route to Provinces make the Duchy split less important and makes both Estate and Rebuild stronger than usual.

I don't agree with this btw, Duke makes winning the Duchy split more important than ever; winning it is pretty much game over. Being able to Rebuild Estate -> Duke for a 4VP gain and having a decent prospect at grabbing a few 5VP Dukes directly is fantastic.

Then you'd buy Duchy over Rebuild?

Depends on what Rebuild. Not over the second (unless I'm already behind), but definitely over the third.

Quote
It seems wrong to me since Rebuild is so valuable with an alternate 5VP card available, but I actually haven't played many (any?) Rebuild-Duke mirrors.

How do you plan to get your Dukes worth 5VP without buying any Duchies?
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ragingduckd

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 07:34:25 am »
0

It's worth checking out SheCantSayNo's posts and sample games on Rebuild/Duke, but basically you spend your $5 hands on Rebuild (and not Duchy) and buy a lot of Estates. The alternative route to Provinces make the Duchy split less important and makes both Estate and Rebuild stronger than usual.

I don't agree with this btw, Duke makes winning the Duchy split more important than ever; winning it is pretty much game over. Being able to Rebuild Estate -> Duke for a 4VP gain and having a decent prospect at grabbing a few 5VP Dukes directly is fantastic.

Then you'd buy Duchy over Rebuild?

Depends on what Rebuild. Not over the second (unless I'm already behind), but definitely over the third.

Quote
It seems wrong to me since Rebuild is so valuable with an alternate 5VP card available, but I actually haven't played many (any?) Rebuild-Duke mirrors.

How do you plan to get your Dukes worth 5VP without buying any Duchies?

In a non-mirror it's just a blowout, so it doesn't matter. In a fair mirror I'm looking at 4-4 Duchies if my opponent and I both go for them, or maybe 3-5 Duchies and some extra Provinces/Dukes if I go for early Rebuilds instead.

My intuition tells me that I'd rather have the extra Rebuilds than win the Duchy split, since we're neither player is likely to finish with more than 3 Dukes. It certainly warrants some testing though. Like I said, I don't have much experience playing Rebuild/Duke when my opp also goes Rebuild/Duke.
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SCSN

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 04:26:17 pm »
+1

It takes a fair bit of luck to tie the Duchies after preferring a 3rd Rebuild over a Duchy. If you do you are obviously in great shape, but I don't think it's a reasonable expectation.

If you don't, things look pretty grim: if you both end up with 3 Dukes, say, that's already a 12VP swing in your opponent's favor, forcing you to have 2 more Provinces just to equalize things, the getting of which would take you 4 more Rebuild plays with perfect luck, and more likely at least 5. But getting even 4 plays out of a Rebuild bought between T7 and T9 seems quite a stretch, so I find it really hard to convince myself that a 3rd Rebuild is anything but terrible, but by all means let's test it to be sure.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 06:40:25 pm »
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It takes a fair bit of luck to tie the Duchies after preferring a 3rd Rebuild over a Duchy. If you do you are obviously in great shape, but I don't think it's a reasonable expectation.

If you don't, things look pretty grim: if you both end up with 3 Dukes, say, that's already a 12VP swing in your opponent's favor, forcing you to have 2 more Provinces just to equalize things, the getting of which would take you 4 more Rebuild plays with perfect luck, and more likely at least 5. But getting even 4 plays out of a Rebuild bought between T7 and T9 seems quite a stretch, so I find it really hard to convince myself that a 3rd Rebuild is anything but terrible, but by all means let's test it to be sure.

I certainly wouldn't take 1 Rebuild over 12 VP, but it should be two Rebuilds against a 5-3 Duchy split, not one. And 3 Dukes each may also be a bit high, since that implies that Duchies, Dukes, and Estates all run out with only 2 Provinces gained.

So I think we're talking about considerably less than a 12 VP swing, and getting 2 plays each out of your 3rd and 4th Rebuilds seems plausible in a game that goes so much longer than an ordinary Rebuild mirror. Plus there's still that chance (10%? 20%?) of getting a third Rebuild and still splitting Duchies.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 09:33:19 pm by ragingduckd »
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Polk5440

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Re: Help Me Untangle This Board
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2013, 01:48:55 pm »
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This would be a great situation to simulate.
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