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[Tables]

Wow, this fizzled out. Anyone playtested any of the cards?

I was just thinking the same thing. I guess people have done most of their analysis. Honestly I kind of feel like there's a few too many cards to reasonably consider and compare them all, but what can you do? It just ended up making me only vote for a select handful of my favourite cards.

Don't forget to vote everyone! That is, don't forget to vote, everyone. Not, don't forget to (vote everyone). That'd be pointless. Commas help I guess.

[Nic]

Wow, this fizzled out. Anyone playtested any of the cards?

Like I said, I've managed to rope someone in for playtesting, but work is brutal right now. We won't be able to play more than a few games on Sunday and Monday, and it'll just be Indulgence and my own Prosperity entry that get tested. I will take notes, and start a dedicated thread.

[eHalcyon]

Pick some more cards to discuss.  I would want to talk about my own submission, but I'm not going to bring it up myself.

[Polk5440]

Pick some more cards to discuss.  I would want to talk about my own submission, but I'm not going to bring it up myself.

Lots of people have commented on their favorite cards already. Do you want people to mention just one card in each post? Or mention different cards from the ones they've already picked as favorites? Or just comment more per card?

[eHalcyon]

Pick some more cards to discuss.  I would want to talk about my own submission, but I'm not going to bring it up myself.

Lots of people have commented on their favorite cards already. Do you want people to mention just one card in each post? Or mention different cards from the ones they've already picked as favorites? Or just comment more per card?

Just more on their favourites, probably.  Or maybe pick things you think are worth debating (e.g. you find it hard to judge without playtesting).

[eHalcyon]

Silk Merchant
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. You may trash two cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per token on the Trade Route mat.
Setup: Put a token on each Victory card Supply pile. When a card is gained from that pile, move the token to the Trade Route mat.

Clarification: The Trade Route mat and tokens referred to by Silk Merchant are the same as those referred to by Trade Route.  If both Trade Route and Silk Merchant are in the kingdom and/or Black Market deck, use only one token on each victory card pile.

I like the idea of using the Trade Route mat for more things, and the name is a great thematic fit.  The specific implementation could be better, but I think the concept is clever enough to go past that.

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

[Schneau]

Silk Merchant
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. You may trash two cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per token on the Trade Route mat.
Setup: Put a token on each Victory card Supply pile. When a card is gained from that pile, move the token to the Trade Route mat.

Clarification: The Trade Route mat and tokens referred to by Silk Merchant are the same as those referred to by Trade Route.  If both Trade Route and Silk Merchant are in the kingdom and/or Black Market deck, use only one token on each victory card pile.

I like the idea of using the Trade Route mat for more things, and the name is a great thematic fit.  The specific implementation could be better, but I think the concept is clever enough to go past that.

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

I think it's a little weird, but probably fine. It would be bad if it somehow made Trade Route play differently, but since they both put tokens on the Trade Route mat in the same way, I don't think it's a problem. For example, a card that, for example, played all of the cards on your Native Village mat is something I couldn't get behind, since it would play so much differently depending on whether NV is in the kingdom or not.

The card itself, I like it for the most part. It's more interesting and less broken than a lot of the submissions.

[Tables]

I dislike that the mat is called the Trade Route mat, and this card is of course not called trade route. Outside of that, I think it's fine.

[AJD]

It doesn't bother me, since the Trade Route mat is really just for bookkeeping. If it said "per Victory card pile in the supply that has been gained from", it'd do the same thing.

[SirPeebles]

Silk Merchant
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. You may trash two cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per token on the Trade Route mat.
Setup: Put a token on each Victory card Supply pile. When a card is gained from that pile, move the token to the Trade Route mat.

Clarification: The Trade Route mat and tokens referred to by Silk Merchant are the same as those referred to by Trade Route.  If both Trade Route and Silk Merchant are in the kingdom and/or Black Market deck, use only one token on each victory card pile.

I like the idea of using the Trade Route mat for more things, and the name is a great thematic fit.  The specific implementation could be better, but I think the concept is clever enough to go past that.

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

As I mentioned previously, I like the idea.  Linking the VP tokens to trashing seems potentially problematic to me though, at least when the Trade Route Mat gets full enough.  With a bit of alt VP, it can easily reach 6, and I'm afraid it would then encourage the players to simply cannibalize their decks. Keep a Pawn (for the nonterminal buy) and Silk Merchant, and then just buy and trash two Coppers each turn for a Province worth of points.

[eHalcyon]

Silk Merchant
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. You may trash two cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per token on the Trade Route mat.
Setup: Put a token on each Victory card Supply pile. When a card is gained from that pile, move the token to the Trade Route mat.

Clarification: The Trade Route mat and tokens referred to by Silk Merchant are the same as those referred to by Trade Route.  If both Trade Route and Silk Merchant are in the kingdom and/or Black Market deck, use only one token on each victory card pile.

I like the idea of using the Trade Route mat for more things, and the name is a great thematic fit.  The specific implementation could be better, but I think the concept is clever enough to go past that.

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

As I mentioned previously, I like the idea.  Linking the VP tokens to trashing seems potentially problematic to me though, at least when the Trade Route Mat gets full enough.  With a bit of alt VP, it can easily reach 6, and I'm afraid it would then encourage the players to simply cannibalize their decks. Keep a Pawn (for the nonterminal buy) and Silk Merchant, and then just buy and trash two Coppers each turn for a Province worth of points.

I think that's OK.  You still have to buy fodder, and it pushes the game towards ending on piles.  It's no bigger an issue than Bishop, IMO.  Bishop might actually be worse, because it can gain VP even without trashing anything.

I do feel that the trashing on this card doesn't feel very cohesive, but Tables hypothesized in his video that it's to match/reference Spice Merchant.

[Polk5440]

Savant
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+3 Cards. +1 Action. Each other player draws a card, then reveals and discards one or more cards. He gets +1 VP per Action or Treasure card he discards.

Hedge Fund
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action.
You may return a VP token. If you do, +3 Cards, +1 Buy, and each other player gets +1 VP.
Setup: Each player gets +2 VP.

So I ended up voting for both of these because I really like the idea of +3 Cards +1 Action, each other player gets a VP externality. But it's hard to figure out without playtesting what the right externality is. I do like Hedge Fund's approach a little better because the externality is more well-defined and there is less AP and fewer potential surprise balance problems (+6 VP to an opponent for discarding 6 Coppers....?). It then becomes all about getting the numbers right (probably in playtesting).

I like the setup with Hedge Fund, too, so even if there are no other VP chip cards and no one else buys Hedge Fund, you still get to play it twice. There's definitely a limiting aspect to it that wouldn't be present with the more simple

+3 Cards
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Each other player gets +2 VP.

I am unsure whether that limiting is needed or what the right amount is for the externality or set up, but I really like the ideas in this card.

[SirPeebles]

Silk Merchant
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. You may trash two cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per token on the Trade Route mat.
Setup: Put a token on each Victory card Supply pile. When a card is gained from that pile, move the token to the Trade Route mat.

Clarification: The Trade Route mat and tokens referred to by Silk Merchant are the same as those referred to by Trade Route.  If both Trade Route and Silk Merchant are in the kingdom and/or Black Market deck, use only one token on each victory card pile.

I like the idea of using the Trade Route mat for more things, and the name is a great thematic fit.  The specific implementation could be better, but I think the concept is clever enough to go past that.

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

As I mentioned previously, I like the idea.  Linking the VP tokens to trashing seems potentially problematic to me though, at least when the Trade Route Mat gets full enough.  With a bit of alt VP, it can easily reach 6, and I'm afraid it would then encourage the players to simply cannibalize their decks. Keep a Pawn (for the nonterminal buy) and Silk Merchant, and then just buy and trash two Coppers each turn for a Province worth of points.

I think that's OK.  You still have to buy fodder, and it pushes the game towards ending on piles.  It's no bigger an issue than Bishop, IMO.  Bishop might actually be worse, because it can gain VP even without trashing anything.

I do feel that the trashing on this card doesn't feel very cohesive, but Tables hypothesized in his video that it's to match/reference Spice Merchant.

Bishop either needs expensive stuff or is too slow and will be surpassed by ordinary decks (aside for edge cases like Fortress).  Silk Merchant, on the other hand, could potentially incentivize both players to slowly buy a Copper or two per turn until the Copper pile is emptied.  At which point, your deck has been cannibalized to the extent that it would struggle to do anything more than move onto the Curse pile.  And then what, if both the Copper pile and Curse pile are empty without either player having the economy to afford even an Estate?

[LastFootnote]

Pick some more cards to discuss.  I would want to talk about my own submission, but I'm not going to bring it up myself.

What I'd really like to discuss at this point is my favorite Hinterlands submission. I guess that'll have to wait until Monday, though.

[WanderingWinder]

Pick some more cards to discuss.  I would want to talk about my own submission, but I'm not going to bring it up myself.

What I'd really like to discuss at this point is my favorite Hinterlands submission. I guess that'll have to wait until Monday, though.

But I haven't submitted your favorite Hinterlands submission yet!

[eHalcyon]

Bishop either needs expensive stuff or is too slow and will be surpassed by ordinary decks (aside for edge cases like Fortress).  Silk Merchant, on the other hand, could potentially incentivize both players to slowly buy a Copper or two per turn until the Copper pile is emptied.  At which point, your deck has been cannibalized to the extent that it would struggle to do anything more than move onto the Curse pile.  And then what, if both the Copper pile and Curse pile are empty without either player having the economy to afford even an Estate?

Mmm, fair enough.

Pick some more cards to discuss.  I would want to talk about my own submission, but I'm not going to bring it up myself.

What I'd really like to discuss at this point is my favorite Hinterlands submission. I guess that'll have to wait until Monday, though.

But I haven't submitted your favorite Hinterlands submission yet!

Don't worry, I already did it for you.

[Robz888]

Ehalcyon
Type: Action
Cost: $5

Name a card. If you do, that card wins the Fan Card Design Contest.

[eHalcyon]

Ehalcyon
Type: Action
Cost: $5

Name a card. If you do, that card wins the Fan Card Design Contest.

Maybe I should stop posting name ideas for others!

FWIW my submission here has had lukewarm reception and only minor discussion.

[Tables]

Ehalcyon
Type: Action
Cost: $5

Name a card. If you do, that card wins the Fan Card Design Contest.

Maybe I should stop posting name ideas for others!

FWIW my submission here has had lukewarm reception and only minor discussion.

I don't suppose your idea was the one that you guessed mine was, in a kind of double-bluffing move ?

[eHalcyon]

Ehalcyon
Type: Action
Cost: $5

Name a card. If you do, that card wins the Fan Card Design Contest.

Maybe I should stop posting name ideas for others!

FWIW my submission here has had lukewarm reception and only minor discussion.

I don't suppose your idea was the one that you guessed mine was, in a kind of double-bluffing move ?

If it were, I would have done it publicly!  But I already named that guess in another post as one of my favourites, in a list that does not include mine at all.

[Wrclass]

Queen's Palace is very interesting. In the Secret History of the Dark Ages cards, Donald X. mentioned a throne-for-treasures he tried and cut for Prosperity. People didn't like it because they couldn't use it to get rid of their starting coppers. It was turned into Counterfeit in Dark Ages.
Queen's Palace may have the same problem, but it is more expensive, which means you will be getting it later in the game when you will not be seeing your Coppers as often.

[GendoIkari]

Silk Merchant
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. You may trash two cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per token on the Trade Route mat.
Setup: Put a token on each Victory card Supply pile. When a card is gained from that pile, move the token to the Trade Route mat.

Clarification: The Trade Route mat and tokens referred to by Silk Merchant are the same as those referred to by Trade Route.  If both Trade Route and Silk Merchant are in the kingdom and/or Black Market deck, use only one token on each victory card pile.

I like the idea of using the Trade Route mat for more things, and the name is a great thematic fit.  The specific implementation could be better, but I think the concept is clever enough to go past that.

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

I don't particularly like using the same mat for both, because it means that both of these cards being in 1 game automatically makes each of them stronger than if they were alone. I mean, sure you could say that same thing for Duke and Horse Traders, or Native Village and Bridge, but those just happen to be 2 cards that form a strong interaction. This is 2 cards that basically refer to each other, in a way, such that the combo is obvious and in-your-face. Almost like a card that said "If Trade Route is in the supply, this and Trade Route cost $1 less" or something.

[Tables]

Silk Merchant
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. You may trash two cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per token on the Trade Route mat.
Setup: Put a token on each Victory card Supply pile. When a card is gained from that pile, move the token to the Trade Route mat.

Clarification: The Trade Route mat and tokens referred to by Silk Merchant are the same as those referred to by Trade Route.  If both Trade Route and Silk Merchant are in the kingdom and/or Black Market deck, use only one token on each victory card pile.

I like the idea of using the Trade Route mat for more things, and the name is a great thematic fit.  The specific implementation could be better, but I think the concept is clever enough to go past that.

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

I don't particularly like using the same mat for both, because it means that both of these cards being in 1 game automatically makes each of them stronger than if they were alone. I mean, sure you could say that same thing for Duke and Horse Traders, or Native Village and Bridge, but those just happen to be 2 cards that form a strong interaction. This is 2 cards that basically refer to each other, in a way, such that the combo is obvious and in-your-face. Almost like a card that said "If Trade Route is in the supply, this and Trade Route cost $1 less" or something.

Couldn't the same thing be said about Potion cost cards? And honestly I'm not convinced the presence of one makes the other stronger, at least, not by a significant amount. Both trigger off of trashing cards in your hand, if you're doing that a lot for one you can't do it much for the other.

[eHalcyon]

Silk Merchant
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. You may trash two cards from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per token on the Trade Route mat.
Setup: Put a token on each Victory card Supply pile. When a card is gained from that pile, move the token to the Trade Route mat.

Clarification: The Trade Route mat and tokens referred to by Silk Merchant are the same as those referred to by Trade Route.  If both Trade Route and Silk Merchant are in the kingdom and/or Black Market deck, use only one token on each victory card pile.

I like the idea of using the Trade Route mat for more things, and the name is a great thematic fit.  The specific implementation could be better, but I think the concept is clever enough to go past that.

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

I don't particularly like using the same mat for both, because it means that both of these cards being in 1 game automatically makes each of them stronger than if they were alone. I mean, sure you could say that same thing for Duke and Horse Traders, or Native Village and Bridge, but those just happen to be 2 cards that form a strong interaction. This is 2 cards that basically refer to each other, in a way, such that the combo is obvious and in-your-face. Almost like a card that said "If Trade Route is in the supply, this and Trade Route cost $1 less" or something.

If this is an issue, I think it would be a bigger problem with Butcher.  Rather than the Trade Route mechanic (which is only so named because Trade Route is the first/only thing that uses it), Butcher uses the coin token mechanic.  Butcher and other coin token cards also have huge synergy because the other cards directly feed Butcher, which trades in coin tokens.  I don't actually think this is a problem, with coin tokens or with reusing the mat.

Moreover, for Trade Route and Silk Merchant, I don't think having both on the board really makes them a combo at all.  They both grow stronger at the same rate (i.e. as Victory cards are gained from the Supply), but will that actually give you a reason to gain an early Estate or Duchy?  If you do, you also make the cards stronger for your opponent, that hasn't changed.  And would you actually want both?  They are both terminal, they both give money, they both allow trashing.  SM provides faster trashing and probably more money early (not to mention +VP), but TR has +Buy and potentially more money late.  I mean, maybe you want both, but I doubt you would want TR any more often than you would without SM on the board.

PPE: Tables makes a good point about Potion cards too.

[AJD]

What do people think about Silk Merchant's idea of reusing the Trade Route mechanic?  Not necessarily this card specifically.  I like the idea a lot, but I think some don't.  Why do you like or dislike reusing the mechanic?

I don't particularly like using the same mat for both, because it means that both of these cards being in 1 game automatically makes each of them stronger than if they were alone. I mean, sure you could say that same thing for Duke and Horse Traders, or Native Village and Bridge, but those just happen to be 2 cards that form a strong interaction. This is 2 cards that basically refer to each other, in a way, such that the combo is obvious and in-your-face. Almost like a card that said "If Trade Route is in the supply, this and Trade Route cost $1 less" or something.

What would you think if there were a card other than City that had an effect if there were empty supply piles? Because that interaction is equivalent to the interaction of this with Trade Route. The fact that Trade Route has a mat named after it is a red herring; it's just shorthand for a particular condition about the state of the supply.