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[2.71828.....]

Here is the kingdom:

To finish this game I used a combo of apprentice and market square to get hands with 11 golds to buy 4 provinces and 17 golds to finish off the provinces with as many duchies as I could buy. 

My question is how does this combo stack up against hermit/madman with market square? Especially on a board that makes you play with 3 card hands almost every turn.  If you replaced develop with hermit/madman on this set, what would be the most dominant strategy?

[sudgy]

Well, it would be nice to know how fast this was...

[2.71828.....]

Sorry, forgot to add the log

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130825/log.515f2508e4b09ee2d2aa5c19.1377458053223.txt

[sudgy]

The game ended about as fast as BM, so it's probably just a bit better than it (You got seven provinces by that point (but trashed two)), but Hermit/MS is way faster than that.  So, to answer your question about those two, I'm pretty sure Hermit/MS is faster.

[jonts26]

The game ended about as fast as BM, so it's probably just a bit better than it (You got seven provinces by that point (but trashed two)), but Hermit/MS is way faster than that.  So, to answer your question about those two, I'm pretty sure Hermit/MS is faster.

The presence of goons changes this a bit. It went as fast as BM but the goons certainly slow things down. And hermit/MS really doesn't like handsize reduction.

[Kirian]

The game ended about as fast as BM, so it's probably just a bit better than it (You got seven provinces by that point (but trashed two)), but Hermit/MS is way faster than that.  So, to answer your question about those two, I'm pretty sure Hermit/MS is faster.

In fairness, Hermit/MS would also be slowed quite a bit by Goons.  More so, in fact, because Apprentice/MS can dump a Gold for 6 cards, but Hermit/MS chokes if the opponent played Goons last turn.

Edit:  ninja'd, of course.

[ragingduckd]

The game ended about as fast as BM, so it's probably just a bit better than it

App-MS is faster than this game suggests, certainly way faster than BM. Check the VPs compared to the number of turns in my App-MS pro games where neither player resigned. The 15+ turn games were against junkers.

 turns | vps |                                     logurl                                     
 ------+-----+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    12 |  18 | http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130729/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1375160108583.txt
    12 |  12 | http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130716/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1374012619559.txt
    16 |  31 | http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130607/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1370645712414.txt
    16 |  32 | http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130527/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1369678253597.txt
    15 |  18 | http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130526/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1369635844948.txt
    14 |  30 | http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130523/log.50b0c843e4b0c5dcbb3e0403.1369298819990.txt

For a faster App-MS win, just switch from Stables to Apprentices earlier while continuing to trash with Mercenary. Go a little easier on the Gold and Market Squares. I suspect you can shave off 2-4 turns.

My question is how does this combo stack up against hermit/madman with market square? Especially on a board that makes you play with 3 card hands almost every turn.  If you replaced develop with hermit/madman on this set, what would be the most dominant strategy?

Either Hermit-MS or App-MS should beat a conventional strategy comfortably. Pure Hermit-MS can't fire off the combo if your opponent literally plays a discard attack every turn after T10. But Hermit could probably add a couple Stables or Apprentices if that started to look likely. It's so far ahead of a Goons engine that it can afford some precautions.

So it's really about which MS strategy wins head-to-head. Hermit is maybe 2-3 turns faster in a solo game, but an App-MS deck is a lot more flexible. Mercenary may swing the balance in favor of App-MS. I like your Urchin-Militia open for App-MS... maybe that deck can realistically plan to play a Mercenary or Militia every turn from T11 to T15 and then fire off its own combo. Hermit can't defend itself with Stables in the same way because it doesn't have the extra time against App-MS that it does against Goons.

[SCSN]

I played an Apprentice/Market Square mirror today that took only 10 turns.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I think the combo should really be described as Apprentice/Market Square/"Trasher that doesn't suck at killing Copper". Because Apprentice really really sucks at trashing Copper, and to have the big fun Gold printing times consistently/quickly enough you have got to get rid of coppers. Just Apprentice/Market Square alone is a little underwhelming, though probably still good on some boards.

edit: Or possibly a non terminal drawer, or village/draw engine instead of good Copper trashing.

[ragingduckd]

I think the combo should really be described as Apprentice/Market Square/"Trasher that doesn't suck at killing Copper". Because Apprentice really really sucks at trashing Copper, and to have the big fun Gold printing times consistently/quickly enough you have got to get rid of coppers. Just Apprentice/Market Square alone is a little underwhelming, though probably still good on some boards.

edit: Or possibly a non terminal drawer, or village/draw engine instead of good Copper trashing.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1377937009995.txt

Apprentice is a crappy Copper trasher, but 4 Apprentices together do a pretty good job. I've seen other decks that can buy half the Provinces on T12 or buy all 8 by T14, but they're all considered classic combos too.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I think the combo should really be described as Apprentice/Market Square/"Trasher that doesn't suck at killing Copper". Because Apprentice really really sucks at trashing Copper, and to have the big fun Gold printing times consistently/quickly enough you have got to get rid of coppers. Just Apprentice/Market Square alone is a little underwhelming, though probably still good on some boards.

edit: Or possibly a non terminal drawer, or village/draw engine instead of good Copper trashing.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1377937009995.txt

Apprentice is a crappy Copper trasher, but 4 Apprentices together do a pretty good job. I've seen other decks that can buy half the Provinces on T12 or buy all 8 by T14, but they're all considered classic combos too.

That is fast! Did you play many games before it went off well or did it only take one (honest question, I'm just curious)? The big hurdle for this deck would be hitting $5 often enough to buy Apprentices without getting a lot of Silvers, you seem to have pretty good luck in that log. You don't have any dead turns here (Apprentice always lines up with Estate). I'd be interested to see how the distribution of outcomes looks like, because I suspect that this is a very favorable one, and most will be many turns slower (I could be wrong about this). But I'll definitely look out for straight Apprentice/MS more often.

[dondon151]

Once you've trashed ~2 Estates, hitting $5 should be pretty consistent.

[ragingduckd]

I think the combo should really be described as Apprentice/Market Square/"Trasher that doesn't suck at killing Copper". Because Apprentice really really sucks at trashing Copper, and to have the big fun Gold printing times consistently/quickly enough you have got to get rid of coppers. Just Apprentice/Market Square alone is a little underwhelming, though probably still good on some boards.

edit: Or possibly a non terminal drawer, or village/draw engine instead of good Copper trashing.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1377937009995.txt

Apprentice is a crappy Copper trasher, but 4 Apprentices together do a pretty good job. I've seen other decks that can buy half the Provinces on T12 or buy all 8 by T14, but they're all considered classic combos too.

That is fast! Did you play many games before it went off well or did it only take one (honest question, I'm just curious)? The big hurdle for this deck would be hitting $5 often enough to buy Apprentices without getting a lot of Silvers, you seem to have pretty good luck in that log. You don't have any dead turns here (Apprentice always lines up with Estate). I'd be interested to see how the distribution of outcomes looks like, because I suspect that this is a very favorable one, and most will be many turns slower (I could be wrong about this). But I'll definitely look out for straight Apprentice/MS more often.

That was my only try, but yes, I do think that it was faster and luckier than average. You could definitely lose some turns to early $4 hands or draw some ugly late hand's like 4 App + Copper.

I would be interested to see a distribution of outcomes too, but I don't plan to generate one myself.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I think the combo should really be described as Apprentice/Market Square/"Trasher that doesn't suck at killing Copper". Because Apprentice really really sucks at trashing Copper, and to have the big fun Gold printing times consistently/quickly enough you have got to get rid of coppers. Just Apprentice/Market Square alone is a little underwhelming, though probably still good on some boards.

edit: Or possibly a non terminal drawer, or village/draw engine instead of good Copper trashing.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130831/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1377937009995.txt

Apprentice is a crappy Copper trasher, but 4 Apprentices together do a pretty good job. I've seen other decks that can buy half the Provinces on T12 or buy all 8 by T14, but they're all considered classic combos too.

That is fast! Did you play many games before it went off well or did it only take one (honest question, I'm just curious)? The big hurdle for this deck would be hitting $5 often enough to buy Apprentices without getting a lot of Silvers, you seem to have pretty good luck in that log. You don't have any dead turns here (Apprentice always lines up with Estate). I'd be interested to see how the distribution of outcomes looks like, because I suspect that this is a very favorable one, and most will be many turns slower (I could be wrong about this). But I'll definitely look out for straight Apprentice/MS more often.

That was my only try, but yes, I do think that it was faster and luckier than average. You could definitely lose some turns to early $4 hands or draw some ugly late hand's like 4 App + Copper.

I would be interested to see a distribution of outcomes too, but I don't plan to generate one myself.

I played a handful of solitaire games, and I was dead wrong about the speed/consistency. MS/Apprentice alone is plenty fast, you were right. Clearing Provinces in 14-16 turns.