Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.  (Read 11403 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jackelfrink

  • Guest
What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« on: August 19, 2013, 08:27:05 pm »
+3

Im not sure how I should be wording my question.

Frequently I find myself 'running on autopilot' during a game. The interesting decisions all come from figuring out some combo and deciding how to set it up. But once Im actually in play, how I should play my hand for that turn is sort of automatic. If I have a laboratory, a goons, and three copper in my hand, I never sit there struggling as I attempt to choose what one I play first.

Now I realize that part of this is just the design of gameplay. It is intended to play quick. One of the design decisions is to avoid all players sitting around waiting and watching as that one analysis paralysis prone friend struggles through their hand. Anything that may have slowed down game play was simply removed during playtesting. So by its very nature, I dont think dominion has a lot going in this area. If a friend is watching the game, and he knows what kind of deck I am running, I could feel safe getting up to go to the restroom and let him play a few hands. Knowing that the decisions he makes on a turn are going to be nearly identical to the decisions I would have made. Us being not at the same skill level only means that we spot combos to go for differently. Not that we ~play~ differently.

Is there any cards or decks that reward skillful play?
Logged

Powerman

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 766
  • Respect: +605
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 08:29:58 pm »
0

Hunting Party or Menagerie.
Logged
A man on a mission.

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 08:40:53 pm »
+8

Procession maybe. It's too easy to cannibalize your deck into nothing if you're not careful, or procession the wrong things.

I think in general, all of the trash-for-benefit cards which you might want to use to cannibalize your own deck for points at various times - when to do that is a non-obvious decision.

I think Hamlet can be nontrivial. You need to decide whether to discard for +Action or +Buy or both - and at the beginning of the turn, you often have incomplete information about whether you'll need the +Buy or +Action later in the turn. I know I've had the occasional turn where I end with only 2 buys and lots of $, and think of a few hamlets near the beginning of the turn where I didn't discard copper for +Buy, and vice versa, turns where I discarded for +Buy and didn't end up using the buy.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 08:41:59 pm by ftl »
Logged

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1559
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 10:21:45 pm »
+1

It's tricky to play any engine that can gain cards and then play them in the same turn. More so if the gainer is also a trasher (hello Forge). Even more so if some of the cards you gain are gainers themselves.

Plentiful +buy and trash-for-benefit both tend to make the endgame pretty complex. The former because it increases the likelihood of unexpected 3-piling, and the latter because you'll often want to eat your victory cards to net an increase in VP (apprentice especially), or even just to change the parity on the province pile (salvager especially).

Any engine that can top-deck cards for next turn can be interesting, especially in non-Scheme scenarios where you need to give up playing a card this turn in order to have it in hand next turn. Also there are game-winning cute tricks like putting a copper on top to pass to Masquerade.
Logged

clb

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 424
  • Respect: +182
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 11:33:59 pm »
0

I think the cheap, easy answer to the OP is that anything that the Bots don't do well (and perhaps a few things they do) are strong candidates for cards/combos/strategies where a skill level will make a significant difference.
Logged

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2577
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4340
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 11:46:54 pm »
0

I remember Scrying Pool decks having a huge learning curve for me with regards to when to go for them, what cards to get, etc.  Nowadays I think Golem and Procession-based decks are probably the hardest to run.
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 12:08:16 am »
0

Rebuild to an extent. I do agree with Procession though and also Develop. Also, Graverobber
Logged

Wingnut

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • Respect: +75
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 12:25:06 am »
+1

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Governor yet so I will. It is obviously powerful but harnessing it correctly without giving up major advantages to your opponent takes a lot of skill.
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5347
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 12:34:11 am »
0

I'd say the obvious answer is Rats. Also weak cards where skill lies in recognizing when and how to go for them, like Counting House. Alchemy also has some skill cards, the whole Potion thing is skill-rewarding.

Edit: Oops, sorry, should have read the OP more carefully...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 04:31:25 pm by Asper »
Logged

AHoppy

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
  • Respect: +529
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 12:45:21 am »
+4

Cant believe that nobody has mentioned Horn of Plenty yet.  I really didn't get this card for a long time, and knowing when you can use it to set up a truly spectacular megaturn is difficult.  But if you can do it, it's amazing.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3391
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 12:47:46 am »
+8

Governor and Horn of Plenty are the big ones that come to mind for me.

Incidentally, all the deck re-ordering cards (Apothecary, Wandering Minstrel, Cartographer, SCOUT) take skill to use on Goko, because the re-ordering mechanic is counterintuitive.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Piemaster

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 260
  • Respect: +170
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 12:59:16 am »
0

Cant believe that nobody has mentioned Horn of Plenty yet.  I really didn't get this card for a long time, and knowing when you can use it to set up a truly spectacular megaturn is difficult.  But if you can do it, it's amazing.

But Horn of Plenty is not at all difficult to play, it's just difficult to know if/when to buy.  That's the distinction the OP was trying to make.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2013, 01:57:37 am »
0

The first card that comes to my mind is Mandarin. You have to avoid autoplay both when you play it and when you buy it.

As ftl said, most trash-for-benefit cards also benefit from careful play, especially Develop.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2013, 02:24:26 am »
0

Hermit-Market Square, if you want to get the numbers right.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11815
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12868
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2013, 04:55:50 am »
0

The whole Dark Ages expansion and coin token cards from Guilds.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

lespeutere

  • 2012 German Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 488
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 05:51:57 am »
+2

Governor and Horn of Plenty are the big ones that come to mind for me.

Incidentally, all the deck re-ordering cards (Apothecary, Wandering Minstrel, Cartographer, SCOUT) take skill to use on Goko, because the re-ordering mechanic is counterintuitive.

I'd say it's counterisotropic, but I guess more people find it intuitive to put cards back one by one.

Develop is a high skill card.
Logged

Simon (DK)

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 347
  • Shuffle iT Username: Sirusc
  • Respect: +218
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 06:01:06 am »
+1

The most complex turn I've ever played is my last turn in this match: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130619/log.513880ece4b006f8dc8ce4c2.1371667477821.txt.
It has: Procession, Fortress, Cultist, Death Cart, Horse Traders and Graverobber.
Logged

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1708
  • Respect: +1788
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 10:05:14 am »
0

I do think Horn of Plenty is tough to play as well as buy. I took a long time to get even a mediocre feel on when to stop gaining Actions/money with it and gain green.

I also agree Scrying Pool was really hard for me to get down at first, too. Develop and Procession are definitely up there for me, too.

Logged

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 10:12:18 am »
0

notes:

1. i think the difficulty with the card return on Goko is that typically (with say apothecary) you're very concerned about what you will draw NEXT when you compute what order the cards go back in, so you have to click on the opposite of what you computed in your head. the BSW/iso method seemed more logical to me. Not that Goko is fatally confusing, just that it requires the sort of work I'd rather do on paper.

2. i don't think governor or tournament are particularly high skill cards, simply because they're so powerful. i'd wager that winning the gov. split 6-4 (early) is more important than making the right decision (assuming you are making competent decisions, i.e. not remodelling coppers into estates). actually, maybe just first player. same with tournament. there are a lot of skill questions in a tournament game, but the problem is that "just spam tournament" is a decent strategy.

3. contrast ambassador, which is also a powerful card but requires high skill

4. or expand, which is a weak card that requires high skill.

5. or treasury.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 11:50:52 am »
+3

BM+X mirrors and monolithic strategies typically require substantial skill to win on average.
Logged

Stealth Tomato

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 507
  • Dorkneel
  • Respect: +480
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2013, 11:59:23 am »
+1

Cant believe that nobody has mentioned Horn of Plenty yet.  I really didn't get this card for a long time, and knowing when you can use it to set up a truly spectacular megaturn is difficult.  But if you can do it, it's amazing.

But Horn of Plenty is not at all difficult to play, it's just difficult to know if/when to buy.  That's the distinction the OP was trying to make.

Horn of Plenty incredibly difficult to play perfectly. Buying/gaining them at exactly the right time is a huge skill differentiator.

I see a lot of cards on this list that are elementary for a lot of the 40+ players... Hunting Party, Scrying Pool, and Rats are particularly notable. On the other hand, Governor is indeed really difficult to optimize. Develop and Procession are both great calls. I love the Mandarin mention even though it might fall into the 40+ category.

Then again, I'm blatantly using my own strengths/weaknesses as a measure of card difficulty. Then again, I might actually be qualified to do that.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2013, 12:09:44 pm »
+3

I think good players not only know what decisions to make with difficult cards, but know how to optimize their deck for those decisions before they buy the card. This makes everything look so much easier. For example, a poor player won't appreciate what can be done with apprentice. A moderate player will look at each apprentice hand and might make the right choice of card to trash. A good player will know how to use apprentices to clear out poor cards, seed the deck with high cost cards, then trash high cost cards in the end game for big draws and game winning turns.
Logged

Voltaire

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • flavor text
  • Respect: +1097
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2013, 12:17:47 pm »
0

This is a wonderful idea for a topic. I second pretty much every card that has been nominated.
Logged

Eevee

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eevee
  • A wild Eevee appears!
  • Respect: +867
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 01:21:25 pm »
0

Merchant guild seems like a high skill card. Reminds me of develop a lot (both are really weak with the potential of being super strong).
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: What card / deck takes the most skill to use properly.
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2013, 01:41:26 pm »
0

courtyard. Too many times I've put back an estate and realized I had 9$ and should have put back a copper instead. (or something similar). Doesn't take a lot of skill to slow down and count your money beforehand, but still. also sometimes there can be tougher decisions (put back gold and buy a duchy, or put back estate and buy a province)
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.053 seconds with 21 queries.