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[TheMirrorMan]

In one of the games I played (on Goko), I counterfeited a spoils. Now counterfeit says that the card should be trashed, yet spoils says it should be returned to the pile. Goko put it back to the pile.

What do you guys think ?

[LastFootnote]

In one of the games I played (on Goko), I counterfeited a spoils. Now counterfeit says that the card should be trashed, yet spoils says it should be returned to the pile. Goko put it back to the pile.

What do you guys think ?

Goko has it right. Sometimes I forget and try to activate a Market Square that way.

[TheMirrorMan]

Well it's a bit weird for me. There was a forager in play and of course that makes it all the more important.

I always teach people Dominion by saying they need to execute everything in order you read it. So first card takes the priority for the rules.

On a side note, suppose you expand a spoils. Would it be returned to the pile too ?

[mail-mi]

Well it's a bit weird for me. There was a forager in play and of course that makes it all the more important.

I always teach people Dominion by saying they need to execute everything in order you read it. So first card takes the priority for the rules.

On a side note, suppose you expand a spoils. Would it be returned to the pile too ?

No because you didn't play it.

Take counterfeiting a spoils. First, you play counterfeit. Then, because of counterfeit, you can play a Spoils twice. You play the spoils the first time, getting +$3 and returning it to the pile, then play it again, getting +$3 and failing to return it to the pile because it is already there. Then, counterfeit tries to trash it, but it loses track of it because Spoils isn't where the counterfeit expected it to be.

Did that make sense?

[gman314]

Spoils doesn't get returned to the pile unless you play it. When you Expand it, you don't play it so you trash it.

Counterfeit says "When you play this, you may play a treasure from your hand twice. If you do, trash that treasure." So, you play Spoils which says "When you play this, return it to the pile." so the Spoils gets returned to the pile. Then you play it again, and then Counterfeit tries to trash it, but can't because the Spoils isn't in the play area where Counterfeit expects it to be.

[eHalcyon]

Well it's a bit weird for me. There was a forager in play and of course that makes it all the more important.

I always teach people Dominion by saying they need to execute everything in order you read it. So first card takes the priority for the rules.

On a side note, suppose you expand a spoils. Would it be returned to the pile too ?

No, if you Expand a Spoils it is trashed.  You do everything you can.  So let's look at Counterfeit-Spoils:

Counterfeit tells you to play a card twice.  You choose Spoils.
You play Spoils.  It tells you to return it to the Spoils pile, so you do.
You play Spoils again.  Note that you can "play" it even though it is no longer physically available, having been returned to the pile.
Counterfeit now tells you to trash the treasure.  Since it was returned to the pile, the "lose track" rule means you cannot trash it.  Oh well.

When you use Expand, you just trash a card outright and Spoils does not get returned to its pile.

PPE: ninja'd, but oh well.  Paraphrasing for paraunderstanding!

[DG]

From the Dark ages rulebook

Six cards in Dark Ages are never part of the Supply: Spoils, Madman, Mercenary, and the three Shelters: Hovel, Necropolis, and Overgrown Estate. Keep these cards handy for when they are needed. These cards cannot be bought, and cannot be gained by cards that gain cards from the Supply, such as Armory. They cannot be returned to the Supply with Ambassador (from Seaside). They can end up in the trash if something trashes them. These piles being empty does not count towards the end condition for the game, or towards the count of empty piles for City (from Prosperity).

There are PDF copies of all the rulebooks available at the Rio Grande website.

[WanderingWinder]

Well it's a bit weird for me. There was a forager in play and of course that makes it all the more important.

I always teach people Dominion by saying they need to execute everything in order you read it. So first card takes the priority for the rules.

On a side note, suppose you expand a spoils. Would it be returned to the pile too ?

First card takes priority isn't a rule, and actually it's not something you can really codify well - what is the first card? What you do is everything that the card tells you which you can do in order. So if it tells you to do something you can't, then you don't. And you complete one activity before starting the next. And anything which that causes to happen resolves before you move on.

In programming terms, it's more like a stack than a queue.

[elahrairah13]

Why doesn't the Counterfeit lose track of the Spoils between the first and second play? Just curious

[michaeljb]

It doesn't need to track it to play it the second time. It's like Throne Rooming a Feast.

[Warfreak2]

The "lose track" rule is that if an effect would move a card from somewhere, and the card isn't there, then the card isn't moved. ("Trash" means move to the trash pile, "Play" means move to the play area, &c.) Counterfeit does lose track of the Spoils, when it tries to trash them (move them from the play area, where they are expected to be, to the trash pile), so it fails to trash the Spoils. However, playing the treasure the second time doesn't require moving it: Counterfeit (incorrectly) expects the Spoils to already be in the play area, and if it doesn't know otherwise, why would it try moving it there? Therefore at this moment nothing is lost track of - no effect tried to move a card, so no card failed to be moved.

[yudantaiteki]

It has always been confusing to me that Counterfit is able to execute the "play it" part despite the card being back in the supply, but cannot execute the "trash it" part.  I know how you're supposed to play the card, I've just never quite understood the underlying rules here.  Same thing with Throne Room and trashing cards.

I know that trashing a card does not remove your ability to follow the rest of the text on the card (or Feast would do nothing).  But there was a very long discussion on BGG where Donald (first?) brought up the lose track rule where someone was trying to define what "play" a card means, in light of situations like Counterfeit-Spoils or Throne Room-Feast/Mining Village.

[sudgy]

It has always been confusing to me that Counterfit is able to execute the "play it" part despite the card being back in the supply, but cannot execute the "trash it" part.  I know how you're supposed to play the card, I've just never quite understood the underlying rules here.  Same thing with Throne Room and trashing cards.

I know that trashing a card does not remove your ability to follow the rest of the text on the card (or Feast would do nothing).  But there was a very long discussion on BGG where Donald (first?) brought up the lose track rule where someone was trying to define what "play" a card means, in light of situations like Counterfeit-Spoils or Throne Room-Feast/Mining Village.

The reason that things happen like they do, is that to play a card, you don't need to know where it is, but to trash it, you need to move it, so you need to know where the card is.

[Warfreak2]

It's not so much that you don't need to know where a card is, to play it - imagine an action card with "when you reveal this, put it in your hand", Golem wouldn't be able to play it because it would lose track, it would be in your hand instead of the pile of cards being revealed from your deck.

It's more that to play a card which is already in play, you don't need to move it in play (it's already there), so you don't need to try to move it, so the Lose Track rule isn't relevant. If card A plays card B multiple times, even if card B isn't in the play area before it has to be played the second time, card A isn't trying to move it so it doesn't matter.

[AJD]

It's not so much that you don't need to know where a card is, to play it - imagine an action card with "when you reveal this, put it in your hand", Golem wouldn't be able to play it because it would lose track, it would be in your hand instead of the pile of cards being revealed from your deck.

I think Golem would play it (i.e., activate whatever is supposed to happen when you play it) but leave it in your hand rather than putting it in the play area.

[ftl]

Let's not veer into discussions of hypothetical cards? It only confuses matters.

[sudgy]

Let's not veer into discussions of hypothetical cards? It only confuses matters.

Well, say there was this card:

Some Card

When you play this, play it as a hypothetical card.  If you do, annoy ftl.

[scott_pilgrim]

What if there were no hypothetical situations?

[Kirian]

What if everyone stopped asking rhetorical questions?

[Awaclus]

What if everyone stopped asking rhetorical questions?

Hey, what do you get when you combine a joke and a rhetorical question?

[Kirian]

What if everyone stopped asking rhetorical questions?

Hey, what do you get when you combine a joke and a rhetorical question?

So far, 3 respect for me, and 2 for you.

[Awaclus]

What if everyone stopped asking rhetorical questions?

Hey, what do you get when you combine a joke and a rhetorical question?

So far, 3 respect for me, and 2 for you.

That's because I upvoted you and you didn't upvote me.