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Nisse

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Forge Question
« on: August 05, 2013, 10:38:49 am »
0

Lets say you want to forge two witches and two estates. The sum of two witches and two estates is 14 which forces you to take a $14 card. But lets say no $14 cards exists. What happens?

Is it still possible to trash the cards but you get nothing for it?

Or is it not possible to trash the cards at all?
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AHoppy

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 10:43:58 am »
+4

All 4 cards get trashed, and since there is no $14 cost card, you gain nothing. this is the same reason that on (most) boards you can upgrade or remake coppers, because there is (usually) no $1 card.

SirPeebles

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 11:13:37 am »
+1

Obviously you could Upgrade or Remake Copper regardless, but AHoppy means that it will allow you to trash the Copper without replacing the card;  contrast this with Remodel, which would force you to replace Copper with a card costing at most $2, which in many games is either an Estate or Copper.

You can also play Forge and trash no cards.  Then you will gain a $0 card.  On paper, Forge clashes with cost reducing cards like Highway.  But if you can get a card down to $0 cost, then you can gain it for free with Forge.  But then, Forge is a rather expensive way of going about gaining a $0 card...
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GendoIkari

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 12:07:27 pm »
+3

Just FYI, there is a general rule in Dominion that says "Do as much as you can." So you still follow as many of the instructions on a card as you can, even if you can't follow them all. So if you play Smithy, but only have 2 cards left in your draw/discard piles, then you draw those 2 cards. If you play Witch, but the Curses are already gone, you still draw 2 cards, etc.
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shMerker

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 01:01:24 pm »
+1

Lets say you want to forge two witches and two estates. The sum of two witches and two estates is 14 which forces you to take a $14 card. But lets say no $14 cards exists. What happens?

Is it still possible to trash the cards but you get nothing for it?

Or is it not possible to trash the cards at all?

"I play Forge and trash two Estates and two Witches. I don't have any treasure to spend so it's your turn now."
"Wait, don't you have to gain a card that costs exactly $14 first?"
"Ok, what costs exactly $14"
"Nothing."
"Allright. I gain nothing."
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zporiri

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 02:11:27 pm »
+11

OP's question was answered very clearly and precisely in the first reply. now, as usual on f.ds, everyone else will say the same exact thing but with different words and examples  :P
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eHalcyon

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 02:15:41 pm »
+13

OP's question was answered very clearly and precisely in the first reply. now, as usual on f.ds, everyone else will say the same exact thing but with different words and examples  :P

The first response was a perfectly adequate elucidation of the situation described by Nisse.  Despite that fact, multiple people will continue to post equivalent but paraphrased explanations (possibly with additional specific cases for illustrative purposes), as is common in this forum.
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GeoLib

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 02:20:00 pm »
+3

OP's question was answered very clearly and precisely in the first reply. now, as usual on f.ds, everyone else will say the same exact thing but with different words and examples  :P

Now all we need to do is bring in potion costs: If you trash a card with forge that has potion in its cost, then that doesn't count towards the value of the card you gain with forge because forge says "cost in coins" and... I mean really just think of cost as a partially ordered set...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:02:26 pm by GeoLib »
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shMerker

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 02:35:17 pm »
+1

At least no one has brought up hypothetical cards yet.
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sudgy

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 02:36:21 pm »
+1

At least no one has brought up hypothetical cards yet.

Say there was a card that costed PP, if you trashed it with Forge you would have to get a Copper or a Curse.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ConMan

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 07:20:16 pm »
+1

At least no one has brought up hypothetical cards yet.

Say there was a card that costed PP, if you trashed it with Forge you would have to get a Copper or a Curse.
Or the top Ruins, if they're in the game. So going back to the idea of costs being partially ordered, we take only the "coins" ordinate, and set the "potions" ordinate to zero regardless of the potion cost(s) of the trashed card(s). If we assume a third currency, for example "brains" (as part of a hypothetical zombie expansion), then trashing cards costing 2, 3P and 1B would result in us gaining a 6-cost card, such as Gold. Unless you've already played a Highway, Bridge, Quarry (via Black Market) or other hypothetical cost-altering card this turn, or some other hypothetical cost-altering effect is in place. Following which, subsequent forum members will elucidate a functionally identical explanation with lesser clarity.
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thespaceinvader

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 05:37:49 am »
0

At least no one has brought up hypothetical cards yet.

Say there was a card that costed PP, if you trashed it with Forge you would have to get a Copper or a Curse.
You don't need hypotheticals for this; Transmute and Vineyards both exist.
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ConMan

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 07:57:59 am »
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At least no one has brought up hypothetical cards yet.

Say there was a card that costed PP, if you trashed it with Forge you would have to get a Copper or a Curse.
You don't need hypotheticals for this; Transmute and Vineyards both exist.
But they only cost P. For a PP cost card, you have to go into the realm of the hypothetical.
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Asper

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 04:41:42 pm »
0

At least no one has brought up hypothetical cards yet.

Say there was a card that costed PP, if you trashed it with Forge you would have to get a Copper or a Curse.

Copper and Curse don't cost PP. What you mean is, if there was a card costing PP, i could gain it for trashing any number of Coppers, Ruins and Curses as well as either two of one or one of each, Transmute and Vineyards.

OP's question was answered very clearly and precisely in the first reply. now, as usual on f.ds, everyone else will say the same exact thing but with different words and examples  :P

Fun fact: Making this statement has become just as common, only that it has a better respect ratio.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 05:28:18 pm by Asper »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 04:45:41 pm »
+1

At least no one has brought up hypothetical cards yet.

Say there was a card that costed PP, if you trashed it with Forge you would have to get a Copper or a Curse.

Copper and Curse don't cost PP. What you mean is, if there was a card costing PP, i could gain it for trashing any number of Coppers, Ruins and Curses as well as either two of one or one of each, Transmute and Vineyards.

No, sudgy is correct.  Forge only looks at coin cost.  To use a real example, suppose I use Forge to trash an Alchemist and a Silver.  The total cost of the two cards is $6P, but I cannot gain Possession because Forge only cares about the cost in coins.  Therefore I would gain a Gold (or other $6 card).

Or the example that the spaceinvader pointed out -- if I Forge a single Vineyard, I have to gain a Curse or Copper because the cost *in coins* is $0.
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Asper

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 05:27:48 pm »
0

At least no one has brought up hypothetical cards yet.

Say there was a card that costed PP, if you trashed it with Forge you would have to get a Copper or a Curse.

Copper and Curse don't cost PP. What you mean is, if there was a card costing PP, i could gain it for trashing any number of Coppers, Ruins and Curses as well as either two of one or one of each, Transmute and Vineyards.

No, sudgy is correct.  Forge only looks at coin cost.  To use a real example, suppose I use Forge to trash an Alchemist and a Silver.  The total cost of the two cards is $6P, but I cannot gain Possession because Forge only cares about the cost in coins.  Therefore I would gain a Gold (or other $6 card).

Or the example that the spaceinvader pointed out -- if I Forge a single Vineyard, I have to gain a Curse or Copper because the cost *in coins* is $0.

Oh, i always thought that was just a german mistranslation :(
*beats himself up for not checking*
Thanks for pointing out my mistake, eHalcyon. And sorry, sudgy.
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shMerker

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 06:23:19 pm »
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OP's question was answered very clearly and precisely in the first reply. now, as usual on f.ds, everyone else will say the same exact thing but with different words and examples  :P

When explaining a concept, it's often helpful to describe it multiple times in different ways to ensure that it's understood. This can include examples and illustrations. Up above I wrote a little script that plays out one possible way to arrive at the conclusion that Forge works the way it does, just in case other answers were unsatisfying. Also I'm doing it right now.
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heron

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 08:03:23 pm »
0

In case it makes it easier, imagine the following card:
$? Nothing: No Type
When you either reveal a card triggered by the fact that you would or you would gain this, return it to the supply. If there is a different card with the same cost as this, gain it.

Now, the next time you play dominion, pretend there are an infinite number of nothing piles in the supply, one for each cost, as well as a few modified versions for spoils and whatnot.

And then, your dominion games will be exactly the same.
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Powerman

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Re: Forge Question
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 10:29:35 pm »
+4

Now, if you play 3 Highways, then Black Market and a Quarry, then 2 more Highways, you can Forge 3 Peddlers into a Province.  Pretty good deal.
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