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Author Topic: Figures with no Echoes is the best  (Read 5106 times)

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popsofctown

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Figures with no Echoes is the best
« on: August 02, 2013, 03:38:34 pm »
+5

Figures adds content to base.  But it does something more important than that.  It actually balances base, fixing the issues that often funneled decisions in base.

Base is very much about controlling the first three achievements.  The disappointing thing as you get better at base, is, you learn that your early plays are pretty much identical to computer code that was given the goal of "maximize the odds you claim the first 3 achievements."

There's some obvious reasons controlling the first three achievements is important.  But the reason that it's so good you don't want to trade them for ANY amount of techup or icon advantage has to do with some other things going on.  Pirate Code and Navigation are weak against 1's in score pile.  The only answer to 1's in score pile is Vaccination, but it gives away free techup, which is often one of the areas the early achiever sacrifices.  2's are a close runner up.  Navigation can't steal 1's, and 2's actually PROTECT you from losing 3's.  Pirate Code is really weak against score piles cushioned with 1's.  Evolution and Chemistry are hard to use without low value cards in your score pile.  Statistics punishes players who don't rely on 1's and 2's.  Both players want to score low value card early, and being the one lucky enough to achieve first by turn order or faster scorers has a really good edge.



Figures helps a lot.  The achievement action is punished by your opponent drawing a figure.  This effect usually isn't enough to deter you from taking an achievement, when given the shining opportunity.  That's not how it helps is, it now makes you think about whether achievement rush is worth it.  In base, if scores are your 2 to your opponent's five, and you have Agriculture on your board and Math in your hand, best play is to return Math and achieve Prehistory, hands down.  Now, if you return the Math, you definitely still want to achieve Prehistory.  But it's a little tougher to decide whether you want to return Math at all.    The other factors on the board would decide that, it's a more complicated decision in figures.


Later ages have better figures, which solves the issue base had with techup being too weak.  It's pretty cool to get some age powerful age 5 cards, but ages 6 and 7 are quite the no man's land.  Figures makes it a more certain thing that teching up has some reward.


Including echoes introduces balance issues similar to those of base+echoes; figures in the sand has difficulty helping fix those.  Echoes always felt like additional content that I wanted that came with balance issues I had to stomach.  Flute is an age 1 four for one, for goodness sakes.  Watermill, Almanac, and Clock all play "who's gonna draw me first" hardball long before Industrialization can even be drawn.  And I agree with the pro players that say the low age echoes cards are much more pivotal than Industrialization, but Industrialization is a one reason that toggling "add extra achievement" is little help.  These cards and several others funnel decisions by obviously being much more powerful than any base card on top, and by being leaps ahead of fellow echoes cards, even.  Figures 1-inspire for turn limit guarantees that figures never totally funnels all of the decisions (many inspire effects are humble enough not to need the limit, too). 
 

Just some stuff that was on my mind.


People say "these cards all look so OP", but I always play the skeptic until I see a card behave in a consistently powerful way.  My experiences so far have frequently left me unsure which figure to meld, and whether to ignore the figures entirely.  You can just score your figure away with Philosophy and use figures as a counterweight help for your base-based strategy if you want to. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 05:34:12 pm by popsofctown »
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NinjaBus

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2013, 02:23:17 pm »
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I'm inclined to agree with you, but I never actually got the hang of the echoes expansion. When one action can result in melding, tucking and scoring 5 different cards I just gave up on trying to plan anything in advance. Figures is much more manageable.

I've still found that claiming early achievements is your best bet, it's impossible to stop someone from claiming the final achievement with declarations in play.
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brokoli

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2013, 04:36:49 pm »
+1

I think I agree with you on the balance issue, it's really the main flaw of Innovation in my opinion. But on the other side, I love the combo/creative aspect echoes add, it's a really fun expansion I can't imagine playing without it.
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popsofctown

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 02:51:18 am »
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I think I agree with you on the balance issue, it's really the main flaw of Innovation in my opinion. But on the other side, I love the combo/creative aspect echoes add, it's a really fun expansion I can't imagine playing without it.
I think it's a novelty that will fade rather than truly worthwhile appeal.  That's my opinion
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Hideyoshi

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 10:17:26 am »
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Well, I agree with your argument on balancing issue. But I often say it is the problems of luck rather than balancing. It is probably the most important things about facing bad luck problems.

I would also suggest that the drawing system has changed when figures are introduced. In the old drawing system, many "strong" echoes cards are actually very weak, such as almanac and watermill. As echoes are actually designed for old drawing system, I think it is not quite fair to compare the cards directly.
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popsofctown

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2013, 06:06:28 pm »
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Well, I agree with your argument on balancing issue. But I often say it is the problems of luck rather than balancing. It is probably the most important things about facing bad luck problems.

I would also suggest that the drawing system has changed when figures are introduced. In the old drawing system, many "strong" echoes cards are actually very weak, such as almanac and watermill. As echoes are actually designed for old drawing system, I think it is not quite fair to compare the cards directly.
Well I'm not trying to bash echoes for adapting poorly to the new drawing system, i'm just saying that in my opinion, out of the four formats available {base, echoes, figures, echoes+figures}, figures is the best.
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ipofanes

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2013, 07:18:55 am »
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Including echoes introduces the balance issues echoes had. 

You may want to re-phrase that sentence in this excellent article.
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ipofanes

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2013, 07:29:15 am »
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Figures only is not really sparse when it comes to rules. It introduces new rules on top of the echoes rules, and while the echoes rules are used, they are not used very frequently. The cards try to remedy this in a way as figures that forecast tend to self-synergise quite quickly, thus enabling you to use the forecast before the figure has faded.

Therefore, base and figures may play well but are a nightmare when introducing them to players who only know base.

I have made the suggestion elsewhere before but I think the balance issues of echoes can be mitigated with the requirement that echoes achievements may only be claimed over their respective "discount" card. That way, blind Industrialization would not automatically to four or so extra achievements.

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popsofctown

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2013, 08:09:25 pm »
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There's more than one way to skin a cat.  Some sort of modication to echoes could be helpful though.  I'm not sure your solution does enough to solve the issues with cards that have unintended interactions with the new drawing rules: Flute, Dice, Watermill, Almanac, Crossbow (hey, I gotta remember the ones that get nerfed by it, right).
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ipofanes

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2013, 03:48:28 am »
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It doesn't address the issues in the first place. That's another cat to skin.

I think keeping an eye on which pile you'll draw from is a brilliant tactic element, and indeed, the repeated bonus card drawing makes it too easy. Dice doesn't recurse so in my opinion it doesn't need nerfing even though it's one of the stronger cards.

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popsofctown

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 04:26:31 am »
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Flute doesn't recur either, neither does Almanac.  EDIT: {either, neither, or, nor??}
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 04:32:45 am by popsofctown »
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ipofanes

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Re: Figures with no Echoes is the best
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 04:38:15 am »
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Almanac is so strong because of its additional echo effect, so you can easily make it draw from echoes piles twice. Also, it foreshadows so it keeps your hand free of bonus cards. In contrast, you can make Chaturanga easily draw an echoes cards as the first of two, but if it has no bonus it's like a booger on your index finger which you have to get rid of using Toothbrush or Pottery.

Normally draw > draw + foreshadow, but maybe Almanac would actually be nerfed when its echo effect became "Draw a [4]".
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