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[Galzria]

Top scum reads:

Ash - (arbitrary) 80% - This is to a T what I would expect scum Ash to do because he's done it in numerous other games. He simply tries to state things as true when they are provably false, and will continue until either he gets his way or is lynched and flips scum. On a very rare occasion (well, about 20% of the time really), he's town... and even then he tends (for my taste) to cause far more headaches and difficulty for the rest of town than he actually manages to be productive.

I love that Galzria is able to state, with 80% certainty, who scum is, this early into a game.  Let's see what trouble you can drum up this time.

I love how you can fail to comment on the entirety of the quote you commented on, or the fact that the numbers listed were stated each time as being arbitrary. Let's see how much you can continue to try and twist.

If the 80% was arbitrary, you should have said so.  The bolded parenthetical refers to nothing, as far as I can see.  If it is an arbitrary number, why use it at all?  Especially since everyone else being at 50% (which is of course correct) is NOT arbitrary.

You could have said "I think ash is 30% more likely than others to be scum."  But you didn't.  You said I am 80% likely to be scum.

You are clearly upset, frustrated, and annoyed.  That's scum!Galz, to me.  Maybe not to everyone.  Town!Galz is a calm fellow who tries to help town, not tear down others.

Again, I think you're trying desperately to discredit me because I called you out. I'll happily let others decide for themselves if they feel my meaning was unclear when writing that each number was arbitrary. Arguing with you serves no point though, and while I have my own personal feelings about your "game plan" thus far I'll keep them to myself as I feel that to post them would simply be to discredit you, instead of trying to convince others that you're scum.

As far as what town Galz does vs Scum Galz, they've both acted in about as numerous different modes as is possible throughout my mafia time here. Again, I could reference old games for the sake of arguing almost any position you wish to take on the issue. In this case though, it's simply town Galz who isn't backing down from being OMGUS'd after he called out a terrible plan.

And you know, had you put your ducks in a row over it and said something like "I didn't like the way Galz opposed the plan because of A, B and C" I would understand. But what you stated was "I get a scum read from Galz because he didn't oppose a bad plan that was obviously bad" - which in fact I directly DID do... and further, when Ipointed this out for the town to see clearly, you responded with "wwell that wasn't the comment I was talking about" instead of, you know, actually backing yourself up.

[Galzria]

Robz, you should reread my reasons for voting for Ash. They've very little to do with the "plan" itself, or even the idea of "faking a plan".

[Galzria]

Anyway, off to work. I'll catch up late tonight when I get home, but will likely not contribute much until tomorrow.

Have fun folks!

[ashersky]

And you know, had you put your ducks in a row over it and said something like "I didn't like the way Galz opposed the plan because of A, B and C" I would understand. But what you stated was "I get a scum read from Galz because he didn't oppose a bad plan that was obviously bad" - which in fact I directly DID do... and further, when Ipointed this out for the town to see clearly, you responded with "wwell that wasn't the comment I was talking about" instead of, you know, actually backing yourself up.

I don't mind this, really.  I think you did not do enough to discredit the plan, or to stop it from gaining any support.  What stands out to me was your "I don't do plans" crap, which was repeated more than once.  You used it in reference to my fake plan, lio's house claiming insistence, the house lynch coordination...it's been your mantra.

While you may have said the words "bad" and "plan" it was clear your message was "I'm covering my eyes and ears and ignoring this stuff."  That's not helping town.

What anyone else takes away from the whole thing is up to them, and it should include whatever opinions they want to form about me.  My specific goals were to get reactions to portions of the plan, the plan as a whole, and the reveal of the plan as fake.

The first two steps were basically already discussed, and non-controversial.  The second part of the plan was odd, (3 VTs?) and closely mimicked town!ash's plan in Blitz (as lio smartly pointed out).  The third part of the plan was ludicrous.

I liked how chairs and others were asking about the order of the Houses.  No one picked up on the fact that the order was in fact tied to Post #3, and in inverse order of role claims.  I thought someone might.  But people asking about it says something to me.  It helps me develop reads.

Yuma was consistent, at least.  And he pointed out the Follow-the-Cop similarities.  You just printed out the plan on multiple pieces of paper, the used it as toilet paper and waved it in everyone's face.

[Robz888]

Robz, you should reread my reasons for voting for Ash. They've very little to do with the "plan" itself, or even the idea of "faking a plan".

I think you are wrong, though. Here is your vote, explained.

Vote: Ashersky

A) Intentionally lying and wasting town's time - whatever. You were "scumhunting" in your own fashion, fine.

B) Backing off and backpedaling AFTER being called out for it WHILE simultaneously claiming that you weren't called out for it - yeah. Not buying it. Reads entirely like "Fuck, this isn't going to work. Obviously bad and biased plan was too obviously bad. Now I need to save face. FoS those who called me on it for not being even MORE vocal!"

And in case you "forgot" where you were called out for it:

I think it has a lot to do with the fakeplan!

[EFHW]

At dinner Tuesday night, Professor McGonagall noticed the first year table was empty.  At first she became alarmed, but then she saw they were all at House tables chatting with their new housemates.  "If they can say their Houses now, why didn't they say before?!" she muttered to herself, shaking her head in a confused manner. 

Vote Count 1.4

mail-mi (1): yuma
Jimmmmm (1): Voltaire
ashersky (3): nkirbit, mail-mi, Galzria

not voting (7): liopoil, Robz, Eevee, ashersky, Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, chairs

With 12 people alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline: Monday, August 5th, 10 pm forum time

[chairs]

Replying to these in no particular order...

There is no plan.  My housemates and I decided to introduce a fake plan to try to draw out reactions.  We figured a clearly flawed plan that seemed to be based on "math" and good intentions (a la the Notorious Hider Boys) but that actually helps scum might draw differing reactions from players of different alignments.

I have multiple reads based off of reactions now.  Most strongly scum are Galz, then yuma, for not for opposing "plans" but for not pointing out how anti-town it really was, when that was clear.

Hot damn. Serious props, ash. I love this.

Why? I've been thinking about a way to try to figure out how to take advantage of the fact that scum didn't get to talk before the game started, but that they did get a chance to talk to town (probably). This actually seems like a good way to do it. I'm very curious to learn who was in ash's House and what they thought of this, or if they even did. I could easily see there being more of a reveal here. I don't find what this did to the thread useless at all, ash is very right that it gives us decent reads. And I like what it's done so far, and how people react will be great as well.

Let's get this talkingaboutHouseclaimingbutnotHouseclaiming over with. Shortens the thread. I'm in Slytherin with chairs and Eevee.

Slytherin: Voltaire, chairs, Eevee
Ravenclaw: liopoil
Hufflepuff:
Gryffindor:

Confirming I am in Slytherin with Voltaire and Eevee.  Our QT was pretty cool, though Ash's fake plan actually highlighted some weaknesses of my own that I'd failed to take into account.

Chairs:

Between the following two quotes, mail-mi posted twice. One post was a non-post about not being Mr. Sheep this game, and the other was restating a defense that he had already given multiple times. In your second quote below you pull your vote from mail-mi after seconding the direction of attention to Jimmm's absence (see the previous post by Volt calling it out and voting).

Volt had been one of three votes on mail-mi along with Yuma and you. With the two responses made by mail-mi, what changed to make your opinion of him (and subsequently your vote ON him) go from "RVS but has meaning now", to "was just RVS and is pointless"?

It reads at the surface like you found yourself accidentally on the growing wagon of a scum teammate that you put an early vote down on. Realizing you were in an awkward position (in the first quote) you decided you didn't want to be the one caught diffusing a scum wagon. After Volt moved his vote, you jumped at the chance to disperse the wagon almost entirely while shifting focus to Jimmm for lurking.

Please explain your change in stance based on the interim events of these two posts:

summary of all reads 7 pages into the game.... (some of these may be RVS... not sure)

mail-mi reads Jimmm as forgetting as scummy

chairs votes for mail-mi (RVS? I am not sure)

voltaire votes mail-mi (no reasons given)

yuma votes voltaire for not giving reasons

mail-mi votes nkiribit for a "scum-slip"

UoS suspicious of chairs for bad math

yuma reads lio townie for his setup complaint

eevee disagrees with the above

mail-mi does a reread of everything...

yuma votes mail-mi.

I am pretty sure that is it, all the scum hunting and reads and non-theory discussion we have had thus far. Judge for yourselves what to make of it, I certainly have an opinion and I am sure you can all guess what it is.

Confirming my mail-mi vote was RVS, though he's since been a bit flighty.

Wow, Jimmmm has been lurking hard.  Is he V/LA or something?

unvote.  I feel like we're moving forward and my RVS vote is less beneficial now.

Top scum reads:

Ash - (arbitrary) 80% - This is to a T what I would expect scum Ash to do because he's done it in numerous other games. He simply tries to state things as true when they are provably false, and will continue until either he gets his way or is lynched and flips scum. On a very rare occasion (well, about 20% of the time really), he's town... and even then he tends (for my taste) to cause far more headaches and difficulty for the rest of town than he actually manages to be productive.

Chairs - (arbitrary) 65% - He avoided my direct question when I called him out about his vote regarding mail-mi, and the interactions between two very specific posts that contained a change of heart.

Mail-mi (arbitrary) 55% - As relates to Chairs interactions.

Everybody else is 50% right now, no real read. Volt and Yuma are both at about 60% townie however. Volt for having what seems to a consistent a fluid train of thoughts this game, and Yuma because if mail-mi is in fact scum, the odds that there's another in my house go down drastically.

Galz - I'm sorry, I have been in meetings for most of the day and haven't been able to read (I literally just read both of these posts in my catchup process).  I unvoted, not because I"m against voting mail-mi, but because my "he's feeling kind of flighty" doesn't quite hit the mark that I use for justifying a wagon, D1.  Also, if you were to quote my comment re: Jimmmm in context, you'd note that I am not the only one to have noticed his absence - in fact, I hadn't noticed it until it was called out as an absence, at which point I simply added my own comment expressing surprise (as I felt I had seen more posts by him, but then went back and reviewed to find that I had not).

I think you'll find that I frequently hop on and off wagons that aren't Robz (Sorry Robz, you're just scummy!) as I try to ensure I'm not participating in a mislynch.  I've been wrong (see Innovation), but I try very hard not to be, and if that means changing my mind 10 times about the same person, so be it.

FWIW I think the ash fakeplan concept was, although kind of anti-town in feeling, the kind of anti-town that I'm starting to expect from town!ash.

[Voltaire]

Volt, I'll need to think about your situation some more, but yeah I buy your reads, I'm just not sure if I agree with them yet or not.  Out of curiosity, because this may defuse any lingering suspicion I have of Chairs, did you get his numbers when you were trying to figure out the numbers?  Like did all 3 of you agree with those?

I was actually the first to post numbers, with the full caveat they were wrong (I was doing some dumb brute force thing). Chairs talked about mine some and stated that he would try to get his own numbers. By the time he did post, I didn't have time to reply to them before the lock. The delay is completely believable because he outsourced the computation, and he hasn't tried to tunnel his wrong numbers or anything. I just think that, like me, he was wrong.

Yuma voted mail-mi. That's an in-house lynch choice. Now, if that goes through, Gryffindor is down to Yuma/myself. Let's assume then that I die N1, leaving just Yuma. Does the fact that he pushed for a house mate to be lynched make him more or less likely to be scum? If he's not scum, am I the logical scum kill to "frame" Yuma, even at the potential cost of giving him control of a house vote?

This is why I was in favor of house claiming. It makes this sort of thing very tricky for scum. Since I have a middling town read on mail-mi, no comment here. You and yuma could both be scum. I have no idea yet (I could be wrong on mail-mi too).

PPE: More stuff.

[ashersky]

Ashersky, I've seen you play scum with a (forgive the expression) "balls to the wall" mentality where you don't care if you get caught as long as you do the most damage to town as possible before you go.

This plan makes no sense and each time you've posted has gotten fuzzier and fuzzier. Right down to "This is the magic formula you'll all have to trust me on that exists that I can't post but try to figure it out yourselves!"

Look, I'm not saying this plan doesn't have merit... I've no idea where you're coming from and no guarantee you'retown at all. But the vagueness and shadowing over everything reeks to me. Right now what I see is a plan that iouts everybody to scum, while doing nothing to help town identify scum at all, and the only thing you've given us to go counter to that is "trust me, there's a magic formula, it works". I think you'll have to forgive my skepticism and understand where my growing distrust of you is coming from...

Because Galz loves to self-quote.  Let me bold something for you, and tell me that works with your "but I did call your plan out as bad" statement.

The negatives here ("makes no sense...gotten fuzzier and fuzzier...vagueness and shadowing...forgive my skepticism...") all says well, I don't understand it, and I don't trust you.  It's saying (to me) that you think I'm scummy for it, not that the plan is terrible.  You say that "right now" (so maybe changed later) all you see is a plan that outs everyone and doesn't find scum.  "Right now" as a qualifier for your statement sticks out to me.

Is that a better A, B, C, and D for you? 

[ashersky]

Deadline: Monday, August 5th, 10 pm forum time[/b][/color]

By the way, that's a shorter day than I expected.  I like it.

[Galzria]

Robz, you should reread my reasons for voting for Ash. They've very little to do with the "plan" itself, or even the idea of "faking a plan".

I think you are wrong, though. Here is your vote, explained.

Vote: Ashersky

A) Intentionally lying and wasting town's time - whatever. You were "scumhunting" in your own fashion, fine.

B) Backing off and backpedaling AFTER being called out for it WHILE simultaneously claiming that you weren't called out for it - yeah. Not buying it. Reads entirely like "Fuck, this isn't going to work. Obviously bad and biased plan was too obviously bad. Now I need to save face. FoS those who called me on it for not being even MORE vocal!"

And in case you "forgot" where you were called out for it:

I think it has a lot to do with the fakeplan!

I think perhaps I was unclear. I posted A) to show my general displeasure with the method, but meant it as written off for a reason to be scummy. Hence the "fine, it's just your style" attitude. Point B) was the driving factor, and the only one I've gone on at length about since.

[Robz888]

I think you'll find that I frequently hop on and off wagons that aren't Robz (Sorry Robz, you're just scummy!) as I try to ensure I'm not participating in a mislynch.

That's cute, and not unreasonable, but it's also something you are in danger of overexplaining, I think. I'm starting to get a feeling that you are scumy, actually. I had another reason, but I don't remember what it was.

[Galzria]

Ashersky, I've seen you play scum with a (forgive the expression) "balls to the wall" mentality where you don't care if you get caught as long as you do the most damage to town as possible before you go.

This plan makes no sense and each time you've posted has gotten fuzzier and fuzzier. Right down to "This is the magic formula you'll all have to trust me on that exists that I can't post but try to figure it out yourselves!"

Look, I'm not saying this plan doesn't have merit... I've no idea where you're coming from and no guarantee you'retown at all. But the vagueness and shadowing over everything reeks to me. Right now what I see is a plan that iouts everybody to scum, while doing nothing to help town identify scum at all, and the only thing you've given us to go counter to that is "trust me, there's a magic formula, it works". I think you'll have to forgive my skepticism and understand where my growing distrust of you is coming from...

Because Galz loves to self-quote.  Let me bold something for you, and tell me that works with your "but I did call your plan out as bad" statement.

The negatives here ("makes no sense...gotten fuzzier and fuzzier...vagueness and shadowing...forgive my skepticism...") all says well, I don't understand it, and I don't trust you.  It's saying (to me) that you think I'm scummy for it, not that the plan is terrible.  You say that "right now" (so maybe changed later) all you see is a plan that outs everyone and doesn't find scum.  "Right now" as a qualifier for your statement sticks out to me.

Is that a better A, B, C, and D for you?

Well, to a point, yes. However that's simply the way I play.

It breaks down like this:

You state something works.

I claim "Boy, that looks bad for a plethora of reasons, but I don't know if you're scum or not. Your refusal to explain a seemingly bad liking plan leaves me suspicious, however I don't know that if you're town or scum. So explain to me what I'm missing. Otherwise, bad plan is bad."

You call me scummy for not straight up condemning the plan.

Look, what it boils down to is that you think I should've straight up slammed the whole thing. But that isn't my style and I won't really apologize for it. I stated my personal thoughts looking at the plan, but also left room for you to explain yourself because at the end of the day, maybe I am in fact missing something. And even if I'm not, I respect the fact that you've appeared to come up with something you think works.

Essentially, it's showing you a certain amount of respect instead of simply and bluntly saying "bad plan is bad and you should feel bad for even having thought of it".

We're you in... M-IV? It's the game where I built a giant case on Robz just to come out later and say "yeah, the case was bunk and I just wanted reactions". I got slammed so very hard for it. Robz should recall. It's left a bitter  In my mouth for such play ever since. Still, when a player says "I think X", I feel my response will always be "I disagree with X", not "X is wrong".

In this case I found the plan bad and said so. However I respected your right to have it.

Now, I'm on the clock and really do have to go.

[mail-mi]

Okay unvote my moment of frustration is over. I think that the fakeplan plan was terribad and ash has moved up in scumminess for it, and by extension UoS very very slightly, I say we continue on with our regularly scheduled scumhunting.

[Eevee]

Quick comments on these recent, fascinating developments:

-I love it ash, that was awesome! Whatever to help us past RVS. I get a town read from that, thinking of a different way to get the game going and scumhunt seems towny.

-I indeed find both chairs and Voltaire towny for our discussions in the qt.

-Everyone should use their qt to it's full potential and scumhunt the bejesus out of their mates there. It really is much easier to do so in a crowd of three as opposed to a full game.

-Should we post all discussions we had in the QT here? EFHW, are we allowed to?

-Galz, having a scum read on one or your house mates doesn't make the other townier because "having two scum in a house is unlikely". After you assume there is one scum, the second person is just as likely to be scum than anyone else.

[ashersky]

We're you in... M-IV? It's the game where I built a giant case on Robz just to come out later and say "yeah, the case was bunk and I just wanted reactions". I got slammed so very hard for it. Robz should recall. It's left a bitter  In my mouth for such play ever since. Still, when a player says "I think X", I feel my response will always be "I disagree with X", not "X is wrong".

I was not.  I started with MX.  I can understand the slams you got.  I expect it here.

Look, I also get your other point, which I cut for length, regarding the way you play and affording me some latitude.  I get it, but don't really believe it.  I think you'd have at least pointed out the obviously bad things for me to reply to.

Like, in Ozlefest2, I said we should flavorname claim.  You were against it, and you gave reasons (possible secondary wincon problems).  I felt like that plan refusal was townier than this one.

It's a gut feeling, but my reads have to come from somewhere.

[yuma]

catching up... saw a handful of posts via my e-mail at work as they came in but not a cohesive thread, will respond as I go along and then will continue after dinner and wife time...

[yuma]

I am pretty sure that is it, all the scum hunting and reads and non-theory discussion we have had thus far. Judge for yourselves what to make of it, I certainly have an opinion and I am sure you can all guess what it is.

Holy four letter words, town can scumhunt and discuss plans at the same time!!1! They are not mutually exclusive! Pretending it's one or the other is a great way to get me riled up.

Yes, I agree we can. But up to this point we hadn't. I think my post showing that is evidence enough that we had a total of what? 9 reads in 7 pages. Pretending that 9 reads in 7 pages is acceptable is what should get you rilled up. And hey, if the ugly truth gets you rilled up, you had better get used to it.

So, mail-mi. Vote was to gauge reactions, but placed on him specifically because he seems to have not read the rules at all. I wanted to see how he'd react to having a vote. Then, after that, he's been somewhat scummy (really, a summary post with no new content?). Yuma pointed out and voted because of this.

am I the only one that is getting really sick and tired of people voting to guage reactions. I know I have done it in the past (MIX), but really I don't think it is very effective at all. You just end up interpreting what happens the way that you want to interpret it. But mostly it is just a convenient excuse that town has allowed scum to make to cover up their tracks. I am suspicious of just about anyone that claims to use this method to scum hunt.

[yuma]

You run into issues of who is online and who is offline though.  I see 3 people viewing the thread right now.  Aren't Jimmmmmmm and Ash in Australia?  I don't think we can get everyone to claim at once, maybe best to allow counterclaims if scum is that nuts?

Hrm, that's a good point.  Should we start tallying who's in favor and who's against this, since it's better if it's unanimous?

For (4?) - Volt, Snow, chairs, (ashersky?)

Against (2?) - (yuma?), (galz?)


======

For a change of pace, here's my scum-to-chum:

Scum:
It's D1, hard to nail this down yet.

Scummy:
mail-mi's been a bit scummy.  I'm leaning towards a null-read on this, though, since mail-mi has been kind of scummy in every game I can find him in.
ashersky came up with a plan, which normally I'd say is towny, but isn't this ashersky the plan-hater?  I'm going to see if I can come up with a way that the plan could have been constructed to benefit the scumteam despite it sounding pro-town on the surface.

Towny:
Voltaire - Has been reasonably towny all day, no alarm bells yet.
Snow - Fixes my math (even if he does think that bad at math = scum  ) and generally provides excellent theory/number-crunching.
Eevee - I'm getting a towny feel from him v0v.
yuma - since scum couldn't communicate N0, but they did know their partners (according to the templated role PM), scum!yuma would be less eager (if scum!ash exists) to trample the plan.  Town!yuma is also generally anti-claiming and mostly anti-plan in favor of scumhunting with some light theory, so this is consistent with my experience of town!yuma.


Null:
Basically the rest of you.

saw this post in my e-mail. Immediately found it scummy in the way that I found eevee's forced list in mean girls to be scummy (reference for those that weren't in that game. It was day1 and I didn't know that eevee and I were partners in it and I was doing some genuine scum hunting)... although I also found chairs scummy for a similar post in Innovation as an observer as well, so keep that in mind.

[yuma]

I catch nkirbit's possible scum slip. (I still maintain that "No N0 chat" would be more forward in scum's mind than town's)

Again, dude, stop trying to make having read the set up be a scum slip.  Would you rather have everyone come into the game saying, "Well what PRs do we have?  Is this an open set up?  We're in houses?  What?? Why didn't anyone tell me?"

Or would you rather have everyone in the game selectively read and only admit to mail-mi's list of what's scummy to know and what isn't scummy to know?

Or would you rather have everyone read everything, and stop making stupid assumptions such as reading public information and having a memory doesn't make someone scummy, it just means someone is playing the game and cares about it and should be expected of every player in the game?  I know this is what I want.

It's nothing to get freaked out about! It's not something I'm going to get you lynched over. I just think it would be something that would be more likely for scum to post than town. Also, it was a bit to gauge reactions, and you freaking out over 1 vote gives me a bit of a scummy read. So I am more than happy to leave my vote on you (for now).

vote: mail-mi

This looks far and away to be scum mail-mi earlier reaching for a lynch by trying too hard and now using the classic justification. I don't think I have ever seen mail-mi vote for a reaction before... I think now it was an attempt to justify it retroactively.

So what you're saying is that I shouldn't try to find stuff that would be more forward in a Death Eaters mind than a Students, and also I shouldn't try anything new to get reads and reactions? Got it.

Ummm... no. Do whatever you want. But I have the right (that isn't the correct word, obligation maybe???) to interpret your actions as scummy. This sort of guilt, emotional response fits right up that alley however.

But really like I said before, any time anyone says a vote was too "gauge reactions" I don't buy it. It is just such an easy cover. "Ah! Guys I didn't really think he was scummy, I just thought that if I voted I could get some useful info out of it (except that most of the time it implicates scum instead of town, but hey that really isn't my point, I just want you to stop being suspicious of me and give me town points for using this neato meathod to scum hunt)"

[yuma]

Yuma, is it your on-week? You haven't been posting as much as usual.

yes this is my week on. I was on vacation the week before that so I haven't been around much lately.

[yuma]

it's a townie plan. vote fixer should claim. healer should give them 1-shot bulletproof.

Whatever, I'm houseclaiming, and everyone else should too, it's a good idea. I'm in ravenclaw. Shall I say who my fellow ravenclaw people are?

ugh... way to wait for everyone to chime in and just do whatever you think is best. awesome...

[yuma]

you think that scum would spend a kill just to get rid of the bulletproof? that raises our mislynch number, which is huge. No, I think the vote fixer will stay alive all game.

yuma did not "veto" my plan. If he refuses to put his permanent vote on someone who a majority of people have agreed we should put our permanent votes on, then we should lynch him the next day.

nice... really nice. So you expect me to abandon town reads and conform to the majority under threat?

Here I'll make it easier for you...
 
I hearby forfeit my right to my house vote. I will not use it, I do not think it is useful and I think it is more likely to be harmful to town than beneficial. That way my house won't come to a majority and it will be harder to lynch someone via this mechanism which I think is for the best.

[yuma]

this isn't something where we're weighing the pros and cons... there ARE NO CONS. I can not think of a good reason not to houseclaim. I can not think of a good reason not to coordinate house votes. I can not think of a good reason for the vote fixer not to claim.

since when are house votes public??

just cause you can't think of any doesn't mean that there aren't any.

[nkirbit]

Eevee, per the OP, we are allowed to directly quote .  I actually very strongly disagree with that, and think direct quoting should absolutely not be allowed, but thems the rules.

Yuma, I agree with your concerns about mail-mi.  He said initially that he was voting for me because I made a scumslip, and then later said he was digging for reactions when I gave him one.  Plus I don't see how my frustration with him making a case on someone for reading public information was at all scummy, but it is troubling to me that his conclusion matched his initial vote.  How convenient!