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[WilsonWriter]

http://wilsonwriter.com/assets/images/manna_hi-rez.jpg

MANNA
$3 - Action/Duration
Put a Treasure card face-up under this card and set both aside. At the start of your next turn, choose one: put another Treasure under this card, or put all Treasures gathered in this way into your hand and discard this card.

Love this card. It's so simple, yet so effective. In our last 3-person game, I used one Manna and two Markets, to buy 2 Colonies, 2 Provinces, and 1 Duchy in the game's last turn.

[Kirian]

Worth way more than $3.  "Trash a copper and gain a coin token."  Yes, please.

[SirPeebles]

http://wilsonwriter.com/assets/images/manna_hi-rez.jpg

MANNA
$3 - Action/Duration
Put a Treasure card face-up under this card and set both aside. At the start of your next turn, choose one: put another Treasure under this card, or put all Treasures gathered in this way into your hand and discard this card.

Love this card. It's so simple, yet so effective. In our last 3-person game, I used one Manna and two Markets, to buy 2 Colonies, 2 Provinces, and 1 Duchy in the game's last turn.

Seems like an interesting effect.  As worded, the set aside Treasure cards are trapped for the rest of the game if you don't scoop them up the next turn, since you are never given another opportunity.  Maybe say "While this is in play, at the start of your turn...".

[AJD]

"You may set aside a Treasure card from your hand under this card. At the start of every turn this is in play, you may put all set-aside cards under this one into your hand and discard this card. If you don't, you may set aside another Treasure under this card."

Fun facts:
Procession + Manna ≈ "trash two Treasures"
Scheme can never top-deck Manna

[SirPeebles]

I would propose forcing pick up when you don't tuck a Treasure card.  Together with my other suggestion,

"While this is in play, at the start of your turn you may put a Treasure card from your hand under this card.  If you do not, put all Treasure cards under this into your hand, and discard this card."

[AJD]

I would propose forcing pick up when you don't tuck a Treasure card.

I mean, that's fine with me; I was just trying to paraphrase what I thought WilsonWriter's intent was, which I don't think has that requirement.

Together with my other suggestion,

"While this is in play, at the start of your turn you may put a Treasure card from your hand under this card.  If you do not, put all Treasure cards under this into your hand, and discard this card."

I'm not entirely sure how "while this is in play" interacts with the way Duration cards work. I think "at the start of each turn this is in play" is a bit clearer. It's probably fine either way though.

[AJD]

I was just trying to paraphrase what I thought WilsonWriter's intent was

(assuming my interpretation of "gathered this way" is correct)

[AJD]

Together with my other suggestion,

"While this is in play, at the start of your turn you may put a Treasure card from your hand under this card.  If you do not, put all Treasure cards under this into your hand, and discard this card."

I'm not entirely sure how "while this is in play" interacts with the way Duration cards work. I think "at the start of each turn this is in play" is a bit clearer. It's probably fine either way though.

Actually, the more I think about this the more confused I get. Either way, it seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy: if you discard it as usual in the cleanup phase of the turn you play it, you don't seem to have broken any rules; if you leave it in play (which is what's presumably intended), you also haven't broken any rules. There's nothing in the actual rules for Duration cards which quite specifies how to deal with this situation.

(No official Duration card has a next-turn effect that hinges on whether or not the Duration card itself has remained in play.)

[AJD]

Okay, I think this should work (though not with Peebles' mandatory pick-up if you can't tuck a Treasure):

"You may set aside a Treasure card from your hand under this card. At the beginning of your next turn, choose one: put all set-aside cards under this into your hand; or play this card again."

[SirPeebles]

How about just "At the start of your turn, if this card is in play, ..."

Hmm, but that has messy tracking issues.  If that card is played a second time, it will execute the "..." twice, but only if you are playing literally the same copy of that card.

[AJD]

Okay, I think this should work (though not with Peebles' mandatory pick-up if you can't tuck a Treasure):

"You may set aside a Treasure card from your hand under this card. At the beginning of your next turn, choose one: put all set-aside cards under this into your hand; or play this card again."

(The interaction with Procession becomes very weird though.)

[SirPeebles]

Okay, I think this should work (though not with Peebles' mandatory pick-up if you can't tuck a Treasure):

"You may set aside a Treasure card from your hand under this card. At the beginning of your next turn, choose one: put all set-aside cards under this into your hand; or play this card again."

(The interaction with Procession becomes very weird though.)

Yeah.  Not literally broken, since I believe you can still play the card from the trash (or where ever it ended up), you just won't put it into play. So there will be this phantom Manna card that keeps playing itself.  But then what if that same Manna card shows up again?  OK, yeah, maybe broken.

[AJD]

How about just "At the start of your turn, if this card is in play, ..."

I think this still has the self-fulfilling-prophecy problem:

When do you clean up a Duration card? On the last turn on which it does something.

How do you know if Tactician is going to do something on the next turn? It will do something if you discarded cards to it, so you clean it up this turn if you didn't discard, and you don't clean it up if you did.

How do you know if Manna is going to do something on the next turn? It will do something on the next turn if it's in play. So you clean it up this turn if it's not going to be in play next turn, and you don't clean it up if it is going to be in play. Which is a tautology, not an instruction.

[AJD]

Okay, I think this should work (though not with Peebles' mandatory pick-up if you can't tuck a Treasure):

"You may set aside a Treasure card from your hand under this card. At the beginning of your next turn, choose one: put all set-aside cards under this into your hand; or play this card again."

(The interaction with Procession becomes very weird though.)

Yeah.  Not literally broken, since I believe you can still play the card from the trash (or where ever it ended up), you just won't put it into play. So there will be this phantom Manna card that keeps playing itself.  But then what if that same Manna card shows up again?  OK, yeah, maybe broken.

I guess the Procession stays in play forever (or until you stop replaying the Manna, anyway), so come to think of it that part of the rule isn't too bad, no more than when you Procession a Wharf or something. But if it's in the trash... are the cards that were set aside "under it" before it was trashed still "under it" now? If not, what happens to them? If you set aside cards "under it" while it's in the trash, how do you track which cards are set aside under it and which cards are just in the trash?

[jbrecken]

I think the wording ought to be something like:

Put a Treasure card face-up under this card.

At the start of each turn while it is in play, choose one: put another Treasure under this card, or remove all the Treasures from under this card and put them in your hand.

This card remains in play until it has no Treasure cards under it.

I removed the "Set aside" wording since there doesn't seem to be a reason why it can't just stay in the "duration cards in play" area.

[SirPeebles]

I think the wording ought to be something like:

Put a Treasure card face-up under this card.

At the start of each turn while it is in play, choose one: put another Treasure under this card, or remove all the Treasures from under this card and put them in your hand.

This card remains in play until it has no Treasure cards under it.

I removed the "Set aside" wording since there doesn't seem to be a reason why it can't just stay in the "duration cards in play" area.

What if you put a Quarry under it?  If it is in play, then Actions cost $2 less for everyone for potentially the rest of the game.

[Warfreak2]

Also Hoard, or Royal Seal.

I feel like all of these should be allowed as combos, actually; on the condition that you have to put another Treasure card under it at the beginning of every turn, or they all get discarded, at least.

[eHalcyon]

But you wouldn't count cards underneath it as in play. They are just set aside, so Quarry, Hoard, etc. would confer no benefits.

(Edit: I see that "set aside" was removed. But it's still not "in play". It's technically "under this card", which is an implied "aside" I think. Outside official rules, at least. )

If the point is to making you give up treasure or pick up, then it should also use "if you do" wording to be clear. Otherwise I could choose "set aside treasure" and not have to pick up, even if I had no treasure to set aside.

[SirPeebles]

But you wouldn't count cards underneath it as in play. They are just set aside, so Quarry, Hoard, etc. would confer no benefits.

(Edit: I see that "set aside" was removed. But it's still not "in play". It's technically "under this card", which is an implied "aside" I think. Outside official rules, at least. )

If the point is to making you give up treasure or pick up, then it should also use "if you do" wording to be clear. Otherwise I could choose "set aside treasure" and not have to pick up, even if I had no treasure to set aside.

I was responding to someone who explicitly suggested putting the Treasure cards into the "in play" location rather than a "set aside" location.  This would have ramifications with cards like Quarry, Hoard, Royal Seal, Herbalist, Grand Market, Mint, Mandarin, Horn of Plenty, and so forth.   The Treasures would then be cleaned up that turn as usual.

[Fragasnap]

How about:

Manna

You may reveal a Treasure from your hand and set it aside. Otherwise, discard this. If this is no longer in play, put the set aside cards into your hand. Otherwise, at the start of your next turn, play this.

$4 ACTION - DURATION

Let me puzzle through this:
Turn 1: You play it. You reveal a Copper and put it with Manna. It is still in play, so the Treasures (Copper) stay there and it will do something next turn- you don't discard it.
Turn 2: You pick it back up and play it (does it lose track of the Copper from Turn 1?). You reveal a Silver and put it with Manna. It is still in play, so the Treasures (Copper and Silver) stay there and it will do something next turn- you don't discard it.
Turn 3: You pick it back up and play it (does it lose track of the Silver from Turn 2?). You don't reveal a Treasure, so Manna is discarded. It's no longer in play, so you put the Treasures (Copper and Silver) into your hand. Because it is not in play, it will not do anything next turn. You would discard it, but it's already gone.

Procession:
Turn 1: You play Manna with Procession. You reveal a Copper and put it with Manna. You play it again. You reveal a Silver and put it with Manna. Manna is trashed and you gain an Action costing exactly $1 more than it. Manna is no longer in play, so the Copper and Silver jump back into your hand. Manna is no longer in play, thus it won't do anything next turn, so Procession is discarded correctly.

I think, assuming the Treasures don't get lost when you pick Manna back up to play it at the start of each turn, this works, though it is clunky and odd with Conspirator.

[SirPeebles]

How about:

Manna

You may reveal a Treasure from your hand and set it aside. Otherwise, discard this. If this is no longer in play, put the set aside cards into your hand. Otherwise, at the start of your next turn, play this.

$4 ACTION - DURATION

Let me puzzle through this:
Turn 1: You play it. You reveal a Copper and put it with Manna. It is still in play, so the Treasures (Copper) stay there and it will do something next turn- you don't discard it.
Turn 2: You pick it back up and play it (does it lose track of the Copper from Turn 1?). You reveal a Silver and put it with Manna. It is still in play, so the Treasures (Copper and Silver) stay there and it will do something next turn- you don't discard it.
Turn 3: You pick it back up and play it (does it lose track of the Silver from Turn 2?). You don't reveal a Treasure, so Manna is discarded. It's no longer in play, so you put the Treasures (Copper and Silver) into your hand. Because it is not in play, it will not do anything next turn. You would discard it, but it's already gone.

Procession:
Turn 1: You play Manna with Procession. You reveal a Copper and put it with Manna. You play it again. You reveal a Silver and put it with Manna. Manna is trashed and you gain an Action costing exactly $1 more than it. Manna is no longer in play, so the Copper and Silver jump back into your hand. Manna is no longer in play, thus it won't do anything next turn, so Procession is discarded correctly.

I think, assuming the Treasures don't get lost when you pick Manna back up to play it at the start of each turn, this works, though it is clunky and odd with Conspirator.

Procession:
Turn 1:  You play Manna with Procession.  You reveal a Copper and put it with Manna.  You play Manna again.  You choose not to reveal a Treasure.  You discard Manna, and return the Copper to your hand.  Procession trashes Manna, but has lost track.  You gain an Action card costing $5.

[AJD]

How about:

Manna

You may reveal a Treasure from your hand and set it aside. Otherwise, discard this. If this is no longer in play, put the set aside cards into your hand. Otherwise, at the start of your next turn, play this.

$4 ACTION - DURATION

You really have to have the cards set aside "under this" or something; otherwise multiple copies of Manna will be contributing to the same pool of Treasure cards, which I don't think is the intent.

[AJD]

How about:

Manna

You may reveal a Treasure from your hand and set it aside. Otherwise, discard this. If this is no longer in play, put the set aside cards into your hand. Otherwise, at the start of your next turn, play this.

$4 ACTION - DURATION

Let me puzzle through this:
Turn 1: You play it. You reveal a Copper and put it with Manna. It is still in play, so the Treasures (Copper) stay there and it will do something next turn- you don't discard it.
Turn 2: You pick it back up and play it (does it lose track of the Copper from Turn 1?). You reveal a Silver and put it with Manna. It is still in play, so the Treasures (Copper and Silver) stay there and it will do something next turn- you don't discard it.
Turn 3: You pick it back up and play it (does it lose track of the Silver from Turn 2?). You don't reveal a Treasure, so Manna is discarded. It's no longer in play, so you put the Treasures (Copper and Silver) into your hand. Because it is not in play, it will not do anything next turn. You would discard it, but it's already gone.

Procession:
Turn 1: You play Manna with Procession. You reveal a Copper and put it with Manna. You play it again. You reveal a Silver and put it with Manna. Manna is trashed and you gain an Action costing exactly $1 more than it. Manna is no longer in play, so the Copper and Silver jump back into your hand. Manna is no longer in play, thus it won't do anything next turn, so Procession is discarded correctly.

I think, assuming the Treasures don't get lost when you pick Manna back up to play it at the start of each turn, this works, though it is clunky and odd with Conspirator.

Procession:
Turn 1:  You play Manna with Procession.  You reveal a Copper and put it with Manna.  You play Manna again.  You choose not to reveal a Treasure.  You discard Manna, and return the Copper to your hand.  Procession trashes Manna, but has lost track.  You gain an Action card costing $5.

...And at the start of your next turn, you play it again once. What happens when you do? You can set aside a Treasure, but regardless you have to immediately put the Treasure back in your hand, so I suppose that's acceptable.

..Unless after discarding it the previous turn you reshuffle and play it again, so it's in play again at the start of your next turn? Well, depends on the interpretation of "no longer", I guess; and we can give it the sensible interpretation.

[eHalcyon]

But you wouldn't count cards underneath it as in play. They are just set aside, so Quarry, Hoard, etc. would confer no benefits.

(Edit: I see that "set aside" was removed. But it's still not "in play". It's technically "under this card", which is an implied "aside" I think. Outside official rules, at least. )

If the point is to making you give up treasure or pick up, then it should also use "if you do" wording to be clear. Otherwise I could choose "set aside treasure" and not have to pick up, even if I had no treasure to set aside.

I was responding to someone who explicitly suggested putting the Treasure cards into the "in play" location rather than a "set aside" location.  This would have ramifications with cards like Quarry, Hoard, Royal Seal, Herbalist, Grand Market, Mint, Mandarin, Horn of Plenty, and so forth.   The Treasures would then be cleaned up that turn as usual.

The quote you responded to doesn't say to put all the treasures in play.  I mean, it puts the Manna in play and it puts the treasure cards underneath Manna, so I guess they would be in the play area, but the Treasure cards are never actually played.  Hm, OK, I see where the confusion is arising (does a card need to have been played to give a "while in play" benefit?  does being in the play area count as being in play?") and agree that it is at least very ambiguous.

I think the easiest solution is to use a mat.  This is a NV variant to me anyway.  Fragasnap's wording looks good to me, and using a mat should clear up any lose track issues.

Manna
$4 Action-Duration
You may set aside a Treasure from your hand face up on your Manna mat.  If you do not, discard this from play and put the cards on the Manna mat into your hand.  At the start of your next turn, play this.
---
generic clarification about cards on the mat at the end of the game.



Ah, but I guess that causes the issue AJD just mentioned, where every Manna contributes to the same pool.  Hm.

[AJD]

Manna
$4 Action-Duration
You may set aside a Treasure from your hand face up on your Manna mat.  If you do not, discard this from play and put the cards on the Manna mat into your hand.  At the start of your next turn, play this.

Notwithstanding the issue about multiple copies of Manna contributing to the same pool, I think the clauses are in the wrong order; this plays itself next turn regardless of whether you've discarded it or not. What you want here is

"You may set aside a Treasure from your hand on your Manna mat. If you do, then at the start of your next turn, play this again. Otherwise, put the cards on the Manna mat into your hand."

This automatically discards itself during cleanup if you cash in; no need for a specific "discard this" instruction. I don't really want to think through whatever Throne Room, King's Court, and Procession issues this version has; they're probably the same as the ones above.

Well, I'll name a King's Court issue, since I haven't yet mentioned King's Court issues at all. If you King's Court Manna and choose (for instance) cash in, tuck Treasure, tuck Treasure, then you leave the King's Court and the Manna in play till your next turn but have to remember to only play Manna twice at the start of the turn (even though there's a KC, not a Throne Room, in play with it).