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Author Topic: Dark Arts  (Read 3351 times)

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BMan

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Dark Arts
« on: July 10, 2013, 09:18:05 pm »
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Action/Reaction

+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal your hand. +1 Card per Curse and Ruins revealed. If you do not reveal a Curse or a Ruins, +$1.
======
When you gain a Curse or a Ruins, you may discard this. If you do, +2 Cards.


Similar to crossroads, but it looks for curses and ruins instead. And it makes it at least slightly palatable if you don't show any, if for no other reason than guaranteeing a +buy.

How much should this cost? I was thinking $4 as-is, but should it be $5? Or something else?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:19:23 pm by BMan »
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mail-mi

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 09:25:48 pm »
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i think $3 because:

1. Action, buy, coin is worst than CM
2. Crossroads hits more often and is $2
3. But the reaction is pretty nice.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 09:31:07 pm »
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Probably $2.  Dark Arts (DA) has at least a couple points against it.  In kingdoms without Cursers or Looters, all this does is give non-terminal +Buy.  That's alright, but it's a $2 effect - see Pawn.  This precludes getting Curses or Ruins for the express purpose of activating this card, because that would be terrible.

In order to get any extra benefit, your junk must be in hand.  Chances aren't that great that you'll make $2 or more from DA.  Even if your deck is a complete mess, you still have a bunch of Coppers and Estates.  If your deck is horrible enough to make DA worthwhile, it'll be tough to scrape together more than $2 to buy it.
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BMan

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2013, 09:33:17 pm »
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Added $2 poll option. This is the first place I've seen where you can edit your own polls :) but wow that's a messy editing result. :(
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2013, 10:00:55 pm »
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With no junkers, its non-terminal Herbalist without topdeck. With junkers it is kinda like Crossroads, without +actions. You get draw a lot, but it will probabably still be junk. Might draw an multi-trasher, that would be good. Can be good with Death Cart, Perhaps?

Reaction is fine.

so, effect is basically a ~2$ with some advantages and disadvanges. It has reaction, which is a bonus. So, 2-3 range, I think.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2013, 10:04:04 pm »
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Oops, I misread it slightly.  Coin if no Ruins or Curse... well, sort of beats Pawn but mail-mi pointed out CM.

Still $2.  Won't draw as well as Crossroads.  Reaction might seem strong but Reactions are allowed to be -- Moat blocks all attacks, which is amazing!  Not to mention, the reaction is still completely vulnerable to hand reduction attacks.
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Powerman

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2013, 10:09:14 pm »
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Action and Reaction don't go well together.  If you look at the other ones, they seem to deal with multiple types of attacks:

Horse Traders: Deals with Handsize / Deck inspection through the set aside + Draw.  Deals with Junkers by discarding for cash.

Watchtower: Deals with Handsize / Deck inspection through drawing up to 6 cards.  Deals with Junkers by trashing as they come in.

Secret Chamber:  Deals with Handsize / Deck inspection by letting you pick best 3 of 7 or putting a card on top of your deck of choice.  Deals with Junkers by discarding for cash.

Etc.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 10:10:19 pm »
+1

Crackerjacks
$2 Action

Discard the bottom card of your deck.  If it is a Province, gain a Prize (from the Prize pile);  otherwise, take a Peanut.
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enfynet

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 01:28:43 am »
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Should say "+1 Card per Curse or Ruins" and not "Curse and Ruins" right?
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Warfreak2

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 03:54:15 am »
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Moat at least does something when there are no attacks in the kingdom, and people already don't like Moat; this does less (nonterminal disappearing +buy, OK) in games without junking attacks, which are quite a bit more common than games without attacks.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 01:22:50 pm »
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As written, though, the card has some interesting interactions with cards like Cellar, Madman, Chapel, etc., as well as itself, that I think might push the value up to $3, though $2 would still be okay -- no one is likely to open with this card, so I think the $2/$3 decision really has to do with whether or not you want this to get bought out easily as a non-terminal $2 to hasten a 3-pile finish. With the friends I've played with, $2 non-terminals are almost always wiped out by end game, especially in 3-4 player games.

Since you get +1 card per Curse/Ruin in your hand, but aren't required to discard those Curses/Ruins, it leaves them in your hand for Cellar to discard, for Chapel to trash, and with a potentially huge hand for Madman to double. It also means that multiple Dark Arts could reveal the same Curses/Ruins to keep adding extra cards to the hand.

If you change the card so it discards the Curses/Ruins from your hand, then definitely $2.

Another way to word the card that I think would make it more interesting, and more in-synergy with itself is:

Dark Arts
Action/Reaction

+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal your hand. +1 Card per Curse; discard the Curses. Play any Ruins that are revealed. If you do not reveal a Curse or a Ruins, +$1.
======
When you gain a Curse or a Ruins, you may reveal this and gain the Curse or Ruin into your hand.


With the ability to gain Curses/Ruins into hand, it would sync well with any cards that allow you to trash a card; especially those that allow you to trash a card and replace it with a card of the same value (Butcher is a good fit here). You could trash a Curse into a Ruin with Butcher (keep the $2), gain the Ruin to your hand by revealing Dark Arts, then get to play the Ruin without spending an action when you play Dark Arts.

I also like that this would get to play multiple Ruins for free. Maybe change the title to fit with the Ruins idea... something like "Archeologist" or "Excavator."
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 02:27:28 pm »
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As written, though, the card has some interesting interactions with cards like Cellar, Madman, Chapel, etc., as well as itself, that I think might push the value up to $3, though $2 would still be okay -- no one is likely to open with this card, so I think the $2/$3 decision really has to do with whether or not you want this to get bought out easily as a non-terminal $2 to hasten a 3-pile finish. With the friends I've played with, $2 non-terminals are almost always wiped out by end game, especially in 3-4 player games.

Since you get +1 card per Curse/Ruin in your hand, but aren't required to discard those Curses/Ruins, it leaves them in your hand for Cellar to discard, for Chapel to trash, and with a potentially huge hand for Madman to double. It also means that multiple Dark Arts could reveal the same Curses/Ruins to keep adding extra cards to the hand.

If you change the card so it discards the Curses/Ruins from your hand, then definitely $2.

Another way to word the card that I think would make it more interesting, and more in-synergy with itself is:

Dark Arts
Action/Reaction

+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal your hand. +1 Card per Curse; discard the Curses. Play any Ruins that are revealed. If you do not reveal a Curse or a Ruins, +$1.
======
When you gain a Curse or a Ruins, you may reveal this and gain the Curse or Ruin into your hand.


With the ability to gain Curses/Ruins into hand, it would sync well with any cards that allow you to trash a card; especially those that allow you to trash a card and replace it with a card of the same value (Butcher is a good fit here). You could trash a Curse into a Ruin with Butcher (keep the $2), gain the Ruin to your hand by revealing Dark Arts, then get to play the Ruin without spending an action when you play Dark Arts.

I also like that this would get to play multiple Ruins for free. Maybe change the title to fit with the Ruins idea... something like "Archeologist" or "Excavator."

A few minor synergies does not push it from $2 to $3.  Those synergies aren't even that good.  DA usually would not draw nearly as well as Crossroads, and in the cases it would, you'll only be drawing more junk.  Cellar can discard it all and draw... again, more junk.  Madman can draw more junk.  Chapel can trash all the junk, and then DA's draw is useless again.

Your version doesn't really solve any of those problems.  Playing a bunch of Ruins for free is kind of interesting, but I think it would be way too much work to pull off and the reward isn't even that great. 

In general, I feel that it just isn't fun for a card to reward you for having junk in your hand.  Crossroads is fine because you DO want Victory cards, but DA is looking for cards you explicitly want to get rid of.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2013, 04:03:47 pm »
+1

A few minor synergies does not push it from $2 to $3.  Those synergies aren't even that good.  DA usually would not draw nearly as well as Crossroads, and in the cases it would, you'll only be drawing more junk.  Cellar can discard it all and draw... again, more junk.  Madman can draw more junk.  Chapel can trash all the junk, and then DA's draw is useless again.

Your version doesn't really solve any of those problems.  Playing a bunch of Ruins for free is kind of interesting, but I think it would be way too much work to pull off and the reward isn't even that great. 

In general, I feel that it just isn't fun for a card to reward you for having junk in your hand.  Crossroads is fine because you DO want Victory cards, but DA is looking for cards you explicitly want to get rid of.

Alright, I'm convinced it should be a $2, not a $3. But I do think BMan has a good card idea. I like how it would work on boards with Curses/Ruins and lacking efficient trashers.

I also like cheap sources of +Buy -- maybe it's just me, but it feels like most of the games I've played recently have only one source of +Buy, and it's usually on a card that is of only minimal value otherwise, but the +Buy makes it vital card.

Cheap, non-terminal +Buy mean this would get purchased in most of the kingdoms it appears in. Sure, it's not a card that anyone will build a strategy on in most games, but it seems like a good supporting player, and for boards with a lot of junk, it would help cycle the junk more quickly and get to good cards without risking any terminal collision. I also really like the idea of activating Ruins for free.

For comparison, it's probably worth comparing it to the four official $2 cards that can provide +1 Buy:

Pawn -- Choose two: +1 Card; +1 Action; +1 Buy; +$1. (The choices must be different.)
Herbalist -- +1 Buy; +$1 | When you discard this from play, you may put one of your Treasures from play on top of your deck.
Hamlet -- +1 Card; +1 Action | You may discard a card; if you do, +1 Action. | You may discard a card; if you do, +1 Buy.
Candlestick Maker -- +1 Action. +1 Buy. Take a Coin token.

Let's consider a board without curses or ruins; Dark Arts is simply +1 Action, +1 Buy, +$1.
Pawn -- In that case, it's sometimes better than Pawn, sometimes worse, since it gets 3/4 of Pawns choices, but there is no flexibility.
Herbalist -- Since it's non-terminal, it's better than Herbalist in engine games, possibly worse in BM games, but in BM+ games, you probably want some other terminal more than you want this.
Hamlet -- Hard to compare to Hamlet, since they work so differently -- which one you would want would clearly be a case of "depends on the kingdom," but it would usually be Hamlet.
Candlestick Maker -- This is the closet comparison. In kingdoms without Curses or Ruins, CM is strictly better. However, in Kingdoms with CM and DA appearing together, I think DA might still be bought; the extra buys from CM would make a 3-pile ending, wiping CM, Dark Arts and something else (Duchies?) a decent rush strategy.

So as-is, it looks like, without any curse/ruin consideration, Dark Arts would be a middle-of-the-road $2 card. With Curses and/or Ruins, DA can end up functioning as some other hyper-Pawn, depending on what's in hand.

I think the most interesting effects would be gaining Curses/Ruins into your hand when attacked. It helps offset the suffering of being attacked by guaranteeing your next turn is improved by receiving the curse.

Again, I'm not saying it's a power card, but I think it's got potential as an interesting card, especially in Dark Ages games. One of the things I wished existed in Dark Ages is a card that auto-activates Ruins. Ideally, it would be a card that also handed out or gained Ruins, to guarantee Ruins were part of the board. If I have any great ideas in that development space, I'll post them.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Dark Arts
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 03:53:25 am »
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Another problem is that its two use cases conflict with each other; you said it would be nice to have on a board with Ruins/Curses and no trashing, but in that case you aren't building an engine, so +buy is not so useful.
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