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Compynerd255

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Multigame cards
« on: August 20, 2013, 09:19:18 pm »
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At my internship, the coworkers I played Dominion with always played three separate 3-4 player games, created from all of the expansions. As I played, I couldn't help but wonder if there was a good way to link all of these games together in a sort of interactive tournament. After some research and thought, here is my solution:

Overview

Play a tournament of multiple, simultaneous "games". Each game must start at the same time, and the winner of the tournament is the player who gained the most VP per turn. Tournament players can interact with one another by playing "Multigame" cards, which are available in every individual game.

Cycling Order

When playing such a tournament, you must define a "cycling order", or a circular loop that passes through all available seats in all games. Each seat in your tournament has a "next seat", and this chain of "next seats" should lead you all the way through all the seats in the tournament and back to your starting point (i.e. no branches, closed loops, or unreachable seats).
- In this post, "next seat" refers to the next seat in the cycling order, whether or not it is occupied.
- "Next player" refers to the next player you encounter as you move from your seat through the cycling order.
- "Previous seat" and "previous player" move in the opposite direction in the cycling order, but are otherwise the same.
For example, the most straightforward cycling order for multiple games at a banquet table is clockwise around the banquet table. But you can have fun with this - perhaps go counterclockwise, or zigzag in a weird way, anything that your players can remember. This is especially important if you choose to use the tournament rules in a single game.
On a related note, all games should have the maximum number of seats available that you wish to support in each game, even if the seats aren't filled up at the start of the tournament.

Game ending and victory

Throughout the game, all players keep exact track of the number of turns they took (most likely through a piece of paper with tally marks).

When a game ends (Provinces out, Colonies out, three-pile), all players in that game may either choose to stop playing or attempt to continue in a different game.
- When you stop playing, you vacate your seat and sit off to the side until all tournament games end. You keep your deck and VP chips.
- If you want to keep playing, you may select any empty seat in the cycling order, at which point you will enter the game there in your appropriate spot in their turn order. If no such seat is available, you must stop playing.
- When you choose to keep playing, any effects that trigger "at the end of the game" do not trigger - any Islanded cards stay Islanded, any Native Village cards stay on your Native Village mat, etc.
When all players have vacated their seats, the cycling order is modified to skip those seats. That game still exists for tournament reasons, but the seats cannot be visited.

When all players have chosen to stop playing, all players count their Victory points and divide them by the number of turns they have played. Whoever has the highest point/turn ratio wins the tournament!

(OFF NOTE: This is the part I'm still trying to work out. This solution allows for faster Province strategies to remain valid even in the face of slower Colony games happening elsewhere, or for even faster Gardens rushes to beat standard Province games happening elsewhere. I still have to find out, though, if VP/turn ratios tend to be the same with different strategies given equally skilled players).

Multigame Cards

The real heart of these tournament rules is the new set of cards - Multigame cards. While most of the cards only interact with your immediate game, these cards can interact with the rest of the tournament, affecting other players or moving between games and the like.
- All games in a Tournament must have the same Multigame cards in their Kingdoms - non-Multigame cards can (and should) differ, but Multigame cards cannot. For instance, if one game has the Foreign Currency card (listed below), the rest must too.
- When you play a Multigame card that affects other players (such as a Multigame Attack), you must announce that you are doing so to the entire tournament, and all players must comply at once.
  - Note that this will even affect other players taking their turns *while* they are taking their turns. In this case, all other players must wait until these players finish resolving any Action card they were playing at the moment the announcement *began*, then all players run the appropriate effect. (Of course, that means that if this was during a TR/KC/Pr run, we could be waiting a long time). If they play a Multigame card that affects other players while resolving this card, they will also wait, then that card's effect will resolve after the first card's.
- Some Multigame cards allow players to move around in the cycling order. When you do, keep these rules in mind:
  - All cards remain in the same state they were in when you move - in deck, in discard, in hand, in play, set aside.
  - Turn orders are modified appropriately when a player changes seats.
  - A game with only one player at it is solitaire Dominion until someone else shows up. A game with no players is dormant, but can still be moved to and played.
- Still other cards allow you to interact with other Supplies. Each Supply is independent, and you can only interact with other Supplies if a Multigame card allows or directs you to do so.
  - If you play Ambassador (or a similar card) that tells you to return a card to the Supply and that Supply pile does not exist at your game, generate a new one at your game. This pile does not count towards the endgame condition if emptied, but does count as being part of the Supply.
  - If you play Madman or Spoils (or similar cards) that return themselves to special piles and those piles do not exist at your game, generate new ones.
  - Similar rules apply to interacting with other Trashes.

Several Multigame Cards
Here are a few of the available Multigame cards:
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Globalize - Cost $6 - Action / Multigame
Text: You may play an Attack card from your hand. Play it as if the entire tournament was one large game, with all players in the cycling order affected by the Attack.
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Comment: This allows you to play any Attack card against all other players in the tournament. For instance, if you Globalize a Militia, everyone else who's taking a turn resolves their current Action, then discards down to 3 cards in hand. All players may still reveal Reaction cards in response to these Attacks.

---
Egress - Cost $5 - Action / Multigame
Text: At the end of your turn, move to any empty seat in the cycling order.
---
Comment: A very useful card in both single- and multi-game tournaments, simply because you can change the turn order and get access to other Supplies. This also allows you to escape effects from the players on your right and left (Masquerade or Possession, anyone?).

--
Change of Hands - Cost $4 - Action / Multigame
Text: +2 Cards. Each player in all games passes a card to the next player in the cycling order all at once. You may then trash a card from your hand.
---
Comment: A Globalized Masquerade (Masquerade is not an Attack and thus needs its own card). In addition, if your cycling order isn't synonymous with your turn order, this can be different from Masquerade.

---
Global Ambassador - Cost $4 - Action / Multigame
Text: Reveal a card from your hand. Return up to 3 copies of it to any Supply in any game. Then each other player in that game gains a copy of it.
---
Comment: Don't like putting cards in your Supply? Put them elsewhere!

---
Royal Ball - Cost $6 - Action / Multigame
Text: Trash this. All players move to the next seat in the cycling order all at once. If multiple players are in the middle of their turns in the new game, each player finishes their turn simultaneously, then the next player is decided by consensus in that game.
---
Comment: Can easily shake up the entire game - probably would beat Possession as the most hated card in Dominion. Note also that since everyone has to move and you move during your turn, it is entirely possible that multiple players who are in the middle of their turns are stuck together - hence the explanatory text. This will not, however, interrupt an Attack or other Action that depends on the old game.

---
Foreign Currency - Cost $4 - Treasure / Multigame
Text: (1 Coin) While this is in play, all cards in other games' Supply piles are available for you to buy or gain.
---
Comment: The simplest possible Multigame card - access other games' Supply piles. This not only allows you to buy cards that are only found in other piles (think Black Market's diversity, but slightly nerfed), but also allows you to buy cards from games that have already ended or aren't close to ending. For instance, if you don't want to buy the penultimate Province, use this card to reach over and buy Provinces from other games!

---
Escape Ship - Cost $5 - Action / Duration / Multigame
Text: When continuing in a tournament after an individual game ends, players with more Escape Ships in play get first choice for choosing a seat over players with fewer. After choosing a new seat in such a situation, trash all Escape Ships you have in play.
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Comment: Essentially, players with more Escape Ships get to choose where to go before players with fewer do. Escape Ships stay in play when you change seats for any other reason - they are only trashed when you are escaping a finished game. You may also choose to stop playing even if you have Escape Ships in play - they only help you continue a game. If two players have the same number of Escape Ships, the first player to pick the seat gets it.

--- (Alternate to the above)
Escape Ship - Cost $5 - Action / Duration / Multigame
Text: When choosing a new seat to move to in a tournament, you may choose to move to a seat occupied by a player with fewer Escape Ships in play. That player must vacate their seat and move to a different seat, or stop playing if no seat is available.
---
Comment: This version of Escape Ship also applies to moving for other reasons, such as with Egress. This makes the card much more versatile and a little less confusing in wording, but I realize that it is also somewhat political (choose the seat of someone you don't like).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Multigame cards
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2013, 10:38:41 pm »
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the winner of the tournament is the player who gained the most VP per turn

This doesn't work.  This particular metric varies wildly depending on the board.  Suppose there are two simultaneous games.  I'm in a game with Governor and strong trashing.  You are in a game with Sea Hag (or any curser, really) and no trashing.  The players in my game are going to pile out the Provinces in a flash while you will slog through a 30 turn game where the final scores are low.  My VP/turn will be much better than yours.  Doesn't mean I played better though.

I may be misunderstanding your broader system, so correct me where I go wrong. :)

Your suggestion seems to allow players to switch between different games, but that doesn't solve the problem.  Maybe I get to spend much more time on the Governor board, racking up many more points in far fewer turns.

Even on the same board, VP/turn can vary wildly depending on the strategies that players choose.  If you run the tournament based on fixed time at each station, players can still be screwed because VP/turn is not constant throughout the game.  For example, mega-turn strategies like NV-Bridge or MS-Hermit will sit at 3 points (starting Estates) for maybe a dozen turns and then suddenly gain 48 points by pile-driving Provinces (probably a little less if some of the Provinces have already been purchased).  If you use a fixed time limit, then I could be screwed if one of the players in my game has severe Analysis Paralysis, such that we don't get to finish our game before time is up.

Determining a winner based on VP/turn can also really skew game play.  Now when we play that Sea Hag game, I suggest to everyone at the table that we all skip the cursing so that we can play a fast game.  Maybe on a board with KC-Bishop-Fortress we all make a pact to build infinite-VP engines that can gain 20 VP/turn by trashing Fortress, and then we just play them out for a hundred turns without stopping.

The multigame cards also really mess with things.  Now I have to worry about a Militia attacking me out of the blue, which I shouldn't have to plan for in a game without Militia!  It would be unbelievably swingy.  The one idea that makes you move to a different seat without changing the setup -- that's just asking for trouble.  Some are outright broken, like Global Ambassador.  I reveal a Rats and send it to a game without Rats in it... uhhhh.  Maybe I have KC-KC-Bridgex3 in hand and am just waiting for my chance to pile drive Provinces... and then someone across the room plays Royal Ball.  Now all my turns of 0VP gaining are wasted and some random other player gets a massive boost to their VP/turn for free.

Not to mention, it sounds like any one table can have any number of players for a game, which can wreak havoc because setup (i.e. number of VP cards, Curses) differs depending on number of players.





Basically, this entire idea sounds like utter chaos.  If that's what you're after, I guess that's fine.  But as a way to set up a tournament for testing skill, I don't see how this is viable at all.
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Compynerd255

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Re: Multigame cards
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 11:31:38 pm »
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Thanks for your feedback, eHalcyon. I do want to see how I could make this work - if it doesn't, I'm OK with that.

I do think that the VP thing would run into a problem very quickly - I was trying to think of a way where multiple strategies with different VP yields could have the same amount of success among differently set-up games. Obviously, as you've outlined, VP/turn is not it. That was the thing I was having the most trouble in determining, and I'll need to come up with something better. Some ideas are at the bottom of the post.

Yes, you can switch between games, but only when your game ends or you play a Multigame card that allows you to do so. And the seats that are set out are fixed - there can only be up to 6 players in a game simply because there are only 6 seats set out per game (or even less, if that's what you choose). If there are no more seats available at a particular game, no one else can move to it.

The other thing is that since greening (especially with engines) is a very deliberate action that you expect to paralyze your deck, when the game nears the end, players will make the conscious decision to either quit the game (and green) or continue at a different game (and keep building up their deck for the next game). Not to mention that when you do move between games, you get to keep all of your cards, so your concern about the KC-Bridge combo and Royal Ball isn't as much of an issue because you can just play it on the new board.

The Multigame cards are designed to further mesh all of these games into a single game - each game can give negatives to other games and take positives from them. For instance, your concern about a Militia attacking you out of the blue - it actually wouldn't be as out of the blue, because you're aware of what other cards are at other boards, so you can prepare for the rare Militia once that board gets to $6. And maybe that game that got stuck with Sea Hags could make the Governor game pay by Globalizing them. I see what you're saying with Global Ambassador / Rats - I could probably nerf it by saying that a copy of that card also has to exist in the destination Supply (which, when combined with the normal Ambassador, could still allow for the introduction of new cards if you can Egress over there and put the new cards in).

Yes, it is quite chaotic and not much like the tournament you might expect, but it could still be fun.

---

As far as I can tell, your concern about this rests largely on the VP/turn mechanic. I see that there are other problems, but how would your feelings change if I changed the endgame move / win mechanic to any of these:
- The player with the most VP among everyone wins the game. (This is probably even worse, though I can also see that more problems arose from the "/turn" than the differential VP itself)
- When players stop playing a game, they count up their VP, and the player with the most VP among them is one of the tournament winners (there is one per game on the board). Players who choose to continue at a different game aren't counted in this.
- Similar to above, but the player who wins the game goes on to the next round - a new set of games with new cards. This continues until 4 or fewer players remain, at which point they play a single game to determine the tourney winner.

And what of these changes (not necessarily together):
- Royal Ball gives all players the choice to move into an opponent's seat. Each player is forced to move if the player behind them is forced to move, or you are behind them and want to move. And it doesn't trash itself. (I would want to make this work with Escape Ship somehow - I'd probably have to abstract both privileges away to some "priority" counter, and give you an extra priority point while you're playing the card)
- Global Ambassador can only return cards to a Supply if a copy of that card is already there (already mentioned in this post).
- Every tournament always uses at least one Multigame card, perhaps two. (I already knew that should happen)
- One of your starting Coppers is a Foreign Currency.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Multigame cards
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 12:02:28 am »
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Oh, your deck travels with you... that makes it even weirder. :P

OK, the issue then is that different cards have different values at different points of the game.  Maybe the spot I start at has great early game cards like Chapel while you have a bunch of good cards to pick up later (expensive strong cards, alt VP).  I set up my deck quickly while you fumble as best you can.  And then I play Royal Ball.  Now it's mid-game and you find yourself at a board with only early game cards and your deck has nothing great in it.  But my deck is primed and ready to pick up all these great expensive components and then plow through VP.

I suppose the question is, what is your goal?  Are you trying to make an actual tournament where skill matters, or just do something fun and interesting by way of chaos?  There is nothing wrong with the latter, if that's what you're going for.
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sudgy

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Re: Multigame cards
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 12:48:11 am »
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Oh, your deck travels with you... that makes it even weirder. :P

OK, the issue then is that different cards have different values at different points of the game.  Maybe the spot I start at has great early game cards like Chapel while you have a bunch of good cards to pick up later (expensive strong cards, alt VP).  I set up my deck quickly while you fumble as best you can.  And then I play Royal Ball.  Now it's mid-game and you find yourself at a board with only early game cards and your deck has nothing great in it.  But my deck is primed and ready to pick up all these great expensive components and then plow through VP.

I suppose the question is, what is your goal?  Are you trying to make an actual tournament where skill matters, or just do something fun and interesting by way of chaos?  There is nothing wrong with the latter, if that's what you're going for.

I think if you were wanting something fun by chaos, this is absolutely perfect.
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Compynerd255

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Re: Multigame cards
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 01:38:04 am »
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Oh, your deck travels with you... that makes it even weirder. :P

OK, the issue then is that different cards have different values at different points of the game.  Maybe the spot I start at has great early game cards like Chapel while you have a bunch of good cards to pick up later (expensive strong cards, alt VP).  I set up my deck quickly while you fumble as best you can.  And then I play Royal Ball.  Now it's mid-game and you find yourself at a board with only early game cards and your deck has nothing great in it.  But my deck is primed and ready to pick up all these great expensive components and then plow through VP.

I suppose the question is, what is your goal?  Are you trying to make an actual tournament where skill matters, or just do something fun and interesting by way of chaos?  There is nothing wrong with the latter, if that's what you're going for.

I think if you were wanting something fun by chaos, this is absolutely perfect.
I hope you aren't being sarcastic, because I think so, too. :) Of course, the chaos expands exponentially with the number of games you have running simultaneously - I would imagine that just two games would actually be reasonable here. And certain cards, such as Egress and Foreign Currency, are less chaotic than others, such as Globalize and Royal Ball.

And something else to think about - since all games have the same Multigame cards, many of these cards can be used to counter themselves. Thus, when you play Royal Ball (using the choose variant that doesn't trash itself), I see you another one (or two), pushing you back to where you were or to some other game with bad cards. I realize that some cards have different levels of effectiveness in different places (most notably Globalize, since we don't have Attacks everywhere) and would probably need adjustment or replacement to be good self-counters. A few more card ideas:

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Shipping Agents - Cost $4 - Action / Multigame
Text: Move a card costing up to $5 from any game's Supply to any other game's Supply.
---
Comment: Makes a card available so it can be bought later. Of course, if you don't have enough money for it, it becomes available for others to buy. This can also be used to pull things like Curses from other games so that your cursing attacks last longer.

--- (Alternate version that's even more powerful and works on non-Attack interactions as well as gainers)
Globalize - Cost $7 - Action / Multigame
Text: You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it as if the entire tournament was one large game, with all players in the cycling order participating, the turn order synonymous with the cycling order, and all Supplies as one large Supply.
---
Comment: This allows Globalize to work on all Action cards, including non-Attack interactions and gainers. Of course, this is probably far too powerful and lets me get out of making cards that work.

---
False Detour - Cost $4 - Action / Multigame
Text: +1 Card, +1 Action | While this is in play, the cycling order is reversed, and the player to your left is now the player to your right and vice-versa.
---
Comment: Combo this with other multigame cards that use the cycling order, and you can effectively reverse them (e.g. reverse a Royal Ball). This also works well with cards that depend on turn order, such as Masquerade and Possession.
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