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Author Topic: Card Idea: Flea Market  (Read 5908 times)

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LastFootnote

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Card Idea: Flea Market
« on: July 08, 2013, 06:34:28 pm »
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Usually I like to playtest my cards a bit before posting them, but I haven't had much opportunity for playtesting lately, so I thought I'd post this here and get some feedback.

Flea Market
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Buy. Put your deck into your discard pile.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from it.

I believe it has the potential to be a very effective deck thinner. I believe that Chapel is the only published $2 deck thinner. This is quite different, but may be close in power. What it lacks in trashing speed it makes up for in being able to trash cards outside your hand.

Criticisms, comments, and concerns are welcome.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 06:40:47 pm »
+1

Looks interesting. Presumably you can't trash the bought card, since it hasn't made it to your discard pile yet?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2013, 06:57:07 pm »
+1

Looks interesting. Presumably you can't trash the bought card, since it hasn't made it to your discard pile yet?

No, but if you are going for a Goons or Merchant Guild megaturn, you can trash all but one of your Coppers.  Pretty much just as nice as Watchtower there (and with an extra buy).
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2013, 07:07:29 pm »
+1

Looks interesting. Presumably you can't trash the bought card, since it hasn't made it to your discard pile yet?

No, but if you are going for a Goons or Merchant Guild megaturn, you can trash all but one of your Coppers.  Pretty much just as nice as Watchtower there (and with an extra buy).

Except that it costs an action.
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Asper

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 07:12:35 pm »
+1

I'd cost it at 3$, and if only to spare Chancellor from being even more ridiculed. I also think it can still compete at that cost. At the very least, you can use it to exchange two of your Curses or Estates for Coppers.

Looks interesting. Presumably you can't trash the bought card, since it hasn't made it to your discard pile yet?

No, but if you are going for a Goons or Merchant Guild megaturn, you can trash all but one of your Coppers.  Pretty much just as nice as Watchtower there (and with an extra buy).

Except that it costs an action.

If you can manage a Goons megaturn, chances are you have actions covered...
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Awaclus

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 08:26:24 pm »
+1

I was expecting this to gain Fleas.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 08:36:27 pm »
+1

Looks interesting. Presumably you can't trash the bought card, since it hasn't made it to your discard pile yet?

No, but if you are going for a Goons or Merchant Guild megaturn, you can trash all but one of your Coppers.  Pretty much just as nice as Watchtower there (and with an extra buy).

Except that it costs an action.

If you can manage a Goons megaturn, chances are you have actions covered...

Well maybe, but quite possibly it means playing one fewer Goons.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 11:15:33 am »
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Looks interesting. Presumably you can't trash the bought card, since it hasn't made it to your discard pile yet?

Right. Although I'm thinking of changing it to on-gain. The only time it would make a functional difference for your normal buys is when you're only buying crap cards you don't want in your deck and trashing them. Say you have $5 and 3 buys and you want to buy a Cartographer and trash two Curses from the Supply. All you'd have to do is buy the Curses first and the Cartographer last. By changing it to on-gain, it would create less AP in the Buy phase, I think. I'm just concerned it might boost the card's power too much when combined with card-gaining effects like Talisman. Then again, Talisman could probably use the boost.

I'd cost it at 3$, and if only to spare Chancellor from being even more ridiculed. I also think it can still compete at that cost. At the very least, you can use it to exchange two of your Curses or Estates for Coppers.

It's not that comparable to Chancellor simply because it doesn't give +$2, which is pretty huge. But in general it's good to cost cards as low as possible. If it turns out to be unworkable at $2, I'll definitely try it at $3. But if it works at $2, I'll keep it there. The set I'm working on needs more $2 cards anyway, you see.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2013, 01:31:07 pm »
+1

I like it as a $2 trasher. It seems to compliment Chapel, since with this, you'd prefer to have your Estates in your discard instead of in your hand.

This obviously won't be as powerful as Chapel in the early game, which is obviously when Chapel matters most. But for mid/late game, especially with extra actions/buys floating around, this will be far more effective than Chapel at getting junk out of your deck. Makes cursing much less effective and would definitely be a game changer.

I don't think it will be broken, but it will be very powerful.

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2013, 06:01:11 pm »
+1

Looks interesting. Presumably you can't trash the bought card, since it hasn't made it to your discard pile yet?

Right. Although I'm thinking of changing it to on-gain. The only time it would make a functional difference for your normal buys is when you're only buying crap cards you don't want in your deck and trashing them. Say you have $5 and 3 buys and you want to buy a Cartographer and trash two Curses from the Supply. All you'd have to do is buy the Curses first and the Cartographer last. By changing it to on-gain, it would create less AP in the Buy phase, I think. I'm just concerned it might boost the card's power too much when combined with card-gaining effects like Talisman. Then again, Talisman could probably use the boost.

You could combo it with Workshop and the like as well, unless you include an "in your Buy Phase" clause.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2013, 06:06:14 pm »
0

Looks interesting. Presumably you can't trash the bought card, since it hasn't made it to your discard pile yet?

Right. Although I'm thinking of changing it to on-gain. The only time it would make a functional difference for your normal buys is when you're only buying crap cards you don't want in your deck and trashing them. Say you have $5 and 3 buys and you want to buy a Cartographer and trash two Curses from the Supply. All you'd have to do is buy the Curses first and the Cartographer last. By changing it to on-gain, it would create less AP in the Buy phase, I think. I'm just concerned it might boost the card's power too much when combined with card-gaining effects like Talisman. Then again, Talisman could probably use the boost.

You could combo it with Workshop and the like as well, unless you include an "in your Buy Phase" clause.

Right. I was just talking about "normal buys". I'm guessing those combos would be fun rather than overpowered. It would be tough to pull off in a Big-Money game, and if you've drawn your entire deck you have nothing for Flea Market to trash!
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Asper

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2013, 06:47:54 pm »
+1

It's not that comparable to Chancellor simply because it doesn't give +$2, which is pretty huge. But in general it's good to cost cards as low as possible. If it turns out to be unworkable at $2, I'll definitely try it at $3. But if it works at $2, I'll keep it there. The set I'm working on needs more $2 cards anyway, you see.

That's fine, probably it's absolutely working at 2$ and won't get bought for 3$. I probably was focused too much on my personal approach that, if my cards interact with existing cards, they help weak ones and damage strong ones (Anti-Rebuild and Scout-friendly, so to say). So while i personally wouldn't do a cheaper Chancellor, on second thought this looks allright at 2$. Your cards generally are pretty well balanced.
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enfynet

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2013, 10:41:08 pm »
+1

I like on-buy instead of on-gain for this card.
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Asper

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 06:15:27 pm »
+1

Right. Although I'm thinking of changing it to on-gain. The only time it would make a functional difference for your normal buys is when you're only buying crap cards you don't want in your deck and trashing them. Say you have $5 and 3 buys and you want to buy a Cartographer and trash two Curses from the Supply. All you'd have to do is buy the Curses first and the Cartographer last. By changing it to on-gain, it would create less AP in the Buy phase, I think. I'm just concerned it might boost the card's power too much when combined with card-gaining effects like Talisman. Then again, Talisman could probably use the boost.

Don't forget about Dark Ages interactions if you do it on-gain.

For example, you could use it to trash all Squires/Feodums/Catacombs/Hunting Grounds in your deck for a three-pile when you are ahead. Or play Rats, gain a Rats, trash a Rats, draw a card. Play Ironworks, gain Fortress, trash it, put it in your hand. Or trash a Cultist, draw 3 cards, reveal and discard Market Square, gain a Gold and trash another Cultist, drawing another 3 cards.

I don't know if any of those is are actually broken, so just for consideration.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 06:17:06 pm by Asper »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2013, 04:15:45 am »
+3

The Rats thing is already possible with Watchtower, they become Lab Rats. IW/Fortress too. The rest don't sound broken either.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 04:17:20 am by Warfreak2 »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2013, 06:27:40 am »
+1

Why not make it when gain?

I have the following card in a fan expansion I'm making (based off a winning entry from the set design contest)

Barge
Action/Duration - $4
Put your deck in your discard pile
Now and at the start of your next turn: +$1, +2 Buys
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand.

The idea is it always misses its own reshuffle, because it's a very strong trasher. If it trashed from the discard, then it would stop cursers dead in their tracks, but I think it's more interesting being from hand.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 06:29:02 am by NoMoreFun »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 08:19:00 am »
+1

Is it really a strong trasher? It can't reduce your deck size, it can only replace cards from your hand with better cards that you buy - already it can't enable something like a Golden deck - but to do that three times with the +2 Buys, you have to buy three good cards without using three cards from your hand. Even buying two cards you actually want is difficult in the early game when strong trashing is important, and you have to do it with a virtually reduced handsize.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 08:21:06 am by Warfreak2 »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 08:02:17 pm »
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Is it really a strong trasher? It can't reduce your deck size, it can only replace cards from your hand with better cards that you buy - already it can't enable something like a Golden deck - but to do that three times with the +2 Buys, you have to buy three good cards without using three cards from your hand. Even buying two cards you actually want is difficult in the early game when strong trashing is important, and you have to do it with a virtually reduced handsize.

It is not a good deck thinner, but as a trasher both Flea Market and my card are similar to cards like Moneylender where you're likely to trash a card, then buy one card in that buy phase so your deck remains the same size.

The compulsory reshuffle in Barge is there because otherwise it seemed to compare too favourably to Remake and Steward, though it can't really thin the deck like those cards. I also like the always missed reshuffle as a concept.

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Warfreak2

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2013, 04:01:22 am »
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Moneylender is not a strong trasher, though! And Moneylender gives you $3 for not spending your Copper, this gives you $1. OK, you can replace Estates, Curses or Ruins with Copper for free, that's nothing to be sneered at, but it's not strong trashing, certainly not so strong it needs a nerf. I'd put it at $3. Anyway, I'm always going to prefer Remake or Steward, because the primary advantage of strong trashing is getting a small deck with only good cards - small decks are totally reliable.

Actually your nerf is not really a nerf at all; compared to a straight Action card you can play once per shuffle, this one you can play slightly more often. Finding the card, discarding your deck and then going through another shuffle is about the length of 1.5 shuffles on average, but you get its effect twice because of the Duration part, and the second time you have five other cards in your hand to make use of the effect - you can play it 4 times every 3 shuffles, and half of the time it comes with a Laboratory, so actually your "nerf" improves the card substantially. Still, it's not a strong trasher, definitely not a "very strong" one.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 04:10:16 am by Warfreak2 »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2013, 04:14:42 am »
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Do you like the card, with the forced chancellor effect, at $4?

Edit: The way I saw it, Steward, Remake and Barge all let you trash 2 cards with each play. Steward goes on to become a nice enough card when it's done with its trashing, while Remake lets you gain Silvers for estates and can have some late game uses in some Kingdoms. Barge however gives you money, scope for additional trashing, and buys which will be especially good for the engines you can create with the card. I wanted therefore to create fewer trashes per reshuffle, so I made it miss a reshuffle it triggers.

Edit 2: How often do you aim for ultra thin, chapelesque decks with Steward and Remake? Most of the time I just use them to speed up engines, and not often for golden decks.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 04:29:12 am by NoMoreFun »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2013, 05:48:06 am »
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As I said, the Duration effect lets you play it twice, and the Chancellor effect speeds up one of the shuffles, so you're playing it more often than something like Moneylender. For a normal action card to do the same thing, it would Chancellor and topdeck itself 50% of the time you play it, and be a cantrip the other 50% of the time! But that's fine, probably it needs that boost. Also, because it doesn't make your deck smaller, it doesn't accelerate itself - the more you trash, the more often you see your Steward.

As for how it performs later in your engine, it's probably worse than Squire, which can also give +$1 +2 Buys. If you draw your deck, the Duration effect (and the Chancellor effect) are totally irrelevant because you can play it every turn anyway, like Merchant Ship just becomes a terminal Silver. OK, maybe you can get rid of some leftover Coppers, but you can't have that many of them by now, and Squire does so many other things, I don't remember the last time Squire was just my engine's +buy.

With Chapel or Steward, I always want to get my deck small enough that I can play everything every turn.

It's not a bad card, but it doesn't play at all like you think it does. Probably it's best in slogs, Gardens for the +4 buys, Vineyard to get rid of a Copper when you get your Vineyards (+buy is also important), or junking games without strong trashing, in which Copper is just a lot better than Curse or Ruins. Probably it can build an engine, but nowhere near as fast as Steward or Remake.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2013, 05:55:42 am »
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The niche I wanted it to have in my expansion is the trasher, so that's going to be a bit of an issue, but I like the card personally. I just thought your deck not growing as you bought cards was still pretty decent as far as trashing went.

I should go make a thread with all the cards I have so far even though it's very much a WIP.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2013, 06:12:31 am »
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Don't get me wrong, I like the card, and the "making it miss its own reshuffle" thing is cool, even if it isn't a nerf. Not every trasher has to be a strong trasher.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2013, 07:39:41 am »
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As far as the OP it's not going to function as a deck thinner, and not giving it any $ does hurt its buying power. I don't think adding $1 makes it too good for $2 (compare to Candlestick maker and Herbalist).
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Asper

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Re: Card Idea: Flea Market
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2013, 11:38:11 am »
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The Rats thing is already possible with Watchtower, they become Lab Rats. IW/Fortress too. The rest don't sound broken either.

Lab Rats... why didn't i see this before? Implied or not, have +1.
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