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[NoMoreFun]

I am making a fan expansion (which will have card art etc.), and I want to have both these cards in it. Is there any way to word them both so that they look similar, but they are also simple and elegant?

I'll make in table form showing where you put the Treasures:

Benefactor:
Action/(Attack?) - $2
Each Player (including you) gains a Treasure that you choose:

Code: [Select]

Treasure     You         Everyone Else
Copper       In Hand       Top Deck
Silver       In Hand       Discard
Other        In Hand       In Hand
Philanthropist
Action/(Attack?) - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each player (including you) gains a Treasure that you choose:

Code: [Select]

Treasure     You         Everyone Else
Copper       In Hand      Discard
Silver       Top Deck     Discard
Other        Bottom Deck  Discard

[AJD]

"Gain a Treasure card, putting it in your hand. Each other player gains a copy of it, putting it on top of his deck if it is a Copper, in his discard pile if it is a Silver, and in his hand otherwise."

[NoMoreFun]

The idea is that, since the gains are washes

Benefactor: Choose one
* +$1, temporarily slow down your opponents even more
* +$2
* +$3 for everyone

Philantropist: Choose one
* A Peddler
* A sort of Conspirator Variant
* A nice deck density thing that comboes with pearl diver?

The only thing there that is most certainly intended as an attack is the $1 option for Benefactor, but is that enough to make both cards Attacks?

[Davio]

Jester is an Attack even if you can use it to give opponents Platinums.
So yes, this has to qualify as well.

Basically, anytime you can interact with every opponent (you can play with more than 1) in a way they might not want most of the time, it's an attack.
Possession only interacts with the guy to your left so that's why it's not an attack.

So why isn't Governor an attack? Well, drawing a card or gaining a Silver don't seem to be that hurtful generally.

[AJD]

Jester is an Attack even if you can use it to give opponents Platinums.
So yes, this has to qualify as well.

So if everybody reveals a Moat, you pick Gold, I guess?

Basically, anytime you can interact with every opponent (you can play with more than 1) in a way they might not want most of the time, it's an attack.

This isn't really true for Masquerade.

[dominator 123]

Basically, anytime you can interact with every opponent (you can play with more than 1) in a way they might not want most of the time, it's an attack.

This isn't really true for Masquerade.

That is because it would be too confusing to know what would happen if someone reveals a Moat.

[NoMoreFun]

Jester is an Attack even if you can use it to give opponents Platinums.
So yes, this has to qualify as well.

Basically, anytime you can interact with every opponent (you can play with more than 1) in a way they might not want most of the time, it's an attack.
Possession only interacts with the guy to your left so that's why it's not an attack.

So why isn't Governor an attack? Well, drawing a card or gaining a Silver don't seem to be that hurtful generally.

On one hand, the Hag'd copper is a pretty good attack, and not being able to stop it with your Moat in hand would be frustrating.

But what if they were attacks. Since you have to reveal Moats before the player chooses which of the options he's doing, the player of this card can just choose one of the other options on the card and seriously benefit. It will activate Secret Chamber, Beggar and Horse Traders, and make the card gainable with Squire, but it seems like making them Attack type does more harm than good.

[NoMoreFun]

I think Jester is an attack because it almost always hurts the opponent and not you when any player that isn't Edgecasing or Kingmaking plays it. Some decisions like late game Silvers are difficult but it's usually pretty clear cut.

I would maintain that in order for it to be an attack, it has to hurt everyone more than it hurts you by a wide margin.

[Davio]

Basically, anytime you can interact with every opponent (you can play with more than 1) in a way they might not want most of the time, it's an attack.

This isn't really true for Masquerade.

That is because it would be too confusing to know what would happen if someone reveals a Moat.

Well, wouldn't it be fun to receive a card, but don't have to pass one?

[NoMoreFun]

Basically, anytime you can interact with every opponent (you can play with more than 1) in a way they might not want most of the time, it's an attack.

This isn't really true for Masquerade.

That is because it would be too confusing to know what would happen if someone reveals a Moat.

Well, wouldn't it be fun to receive a card, but don't have to pass one?

The card could say "You and each affected player passes a card to his left".

Edit: Although it's not quite clear that only the affected players receive cards.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Philanthropist
Action/Attack - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Name a Treasure. Each player (including you) gains a copy of it. Put it in your hand if it is a Copper, on your deck if it is a Silver, and at the bottom of your deck otherwise.

[GendoIkari]

Possession only interacts with the guy to your left so that's why it's not an attack.

I disagree with this. Possession isn't an attack because the majority of the time, it has no negative impact on the player to your left. The normal effect for him is replacing his current 5-card hand with whatever 5-card hand he would have had next, which is about the same as Tribute; has equal chance of hurting and helping. Of course there's plenty of edge cases dealing mostly with Governor, Ambassador, Treasury, Alchemist, etc, but the usual use of Possession doesn't hurt your opponent.

[eHalcyon]

Possession only interacts with the guy to your left so that's why it's not an attack.

I disagree with this. Possession isn't an attack because the majority of the time, it has no negative impact on the player to your left. The normal effect for him is replacing his current 5-card hand with whatever 5-card hand he would have had next, which is about the same as Tribute; has equal chance of hurting and helping. Of course there's plenty of edge cases dealing mostly with Governor, Ambassador, Treasury, Alchemist, etc, but the usual use of Possession doesn't hurt your opponent.

Likewise for Masquerade, where both players pass their worst cards around.

[GendoIkari]

Possession only interacts with the guy to your left so that's why it's not an attack.

I disagree with this. Possession isn't an attack because the majority of the time, it has no negative impact on the player to your left. The normal effect for him is replacing his current 5-card hand with whatever 5-card hand he would have had next, which is about the same as Tribute; has equal chance of hurting and helping. Of course there's plenty of edge cases dealing mostly with Governor, Ambassador, Treasury, Alchemist, etc, but the usual use of Possession doesn't hurt your opponent.

Likewise for Masquerade, where both players pass their worst cards around.

Somewhat. I think it's generally a lot easier to hurt someone with Masq than it is with Possession. With Possession, you can only hurt them if comboing with other specific cards. Masq can be used to hurt an opponent no matter what else is in the Kingdom. Not sure if Donald himself ever said this or not, but I think it's pretty likely that Masquerade would be an attack if not for the possible Moat confusion.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Man, you can give people some awful reshuffles with Possession, regardless of what's on the board, as long as there's some draw of some sort.

[Asper]

Makes Tunnels and Beggars Moats, but why the hell not:

Benefactor
Action, 2$
Gain a Treasure card, putting it in your hand. Each other player my reveal a reaction card from his hand. If he doesn't, he gains a copy of the gained treasure, putting it on top of his deck if it is a Copper, in his discard pile if it is a Silver, and in his hand otherwise.

[NoMoreFun]

Makes Tunnels and Beggars Moats, but why the hell not:

Benefactor
Action, 2$
Gain a Treasure card, putting it in your hand. Each other player my reveal a reaction card from his hand. If he doesn't, he gains a copy of the gained treasure, putting it on top of his deck if it is a Copper, in his discard pile if it is a Silver, and in his hand otherwise.

That works but it's a bit too clunky.
The net effect of the "copper" attack is slowing down the opponents reshuffle by one card, and making sure one of the next cards in their hand is a copper (which could actually be beneficial). I'd be ok with this effect not being blockable personally.

[NoMoreFun]

Is Benefactor ok at $2? All of the effects seem like $2 effects, and it doesn't seem to benefit much from its versatility the way Steward does (a fast trasher that remains useful seems pretty different to a versatile gainer).

Same goes for Philanthropist. All the of the effects definitely fit within the $4 range, but is the versatility too much?

[Asper]

Benefactor is a Copper Hag. The fact that it's harming yourself and adds little for your turn doesn't change that. I am in favour of making it blockable. It's fine at its cost as far as i can see, probably even a little weak.

Philantropist i remember from an old thread, when i asked about you guys favourite selfmade cards. Playtested it back then, and even though my own fan card, Dwarf, could draw cards from a decks bottom, Philantropist seemed fine to me. I like it and think its a nice little 4$. Same about the blocking there, though.

[GendoIkari]

Man, you can give people some awful reshuffles with Possession, regardless of what's on the board, as long as there's some draw of some sort.

In most situations the worst you could really do is play Smithy while having some good cards in hand, which the person may have played anyway if they preferred getting a good hand now to a better reshuffle. In order to really hurt them, you'd need something that basically lets you draw your deck, then discard some bad cards, then cause a reshuffle.