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[Young Nick]

There are a lot of cards that are borderline attacks, but does it matter all that much?

Example:

Copper Flooder
$3
Action(-Attack?)
+$2
Each opponent gains a Copper.

Is this an attack? What if it reads as "Everyone gains a Copper?"

I mean Overgrown Estate is technically a Victory card even though it doesn't net you VP's. Talk about straining a definition...

Card types are an increasingly malleable affair.

Yes that is an attack.  It is a copper junker.  Giving other people Copper is a common use case of Ambassador, which is an attack.  It is also an attack that was tested by Donald X. and ultimately scrapped because the size of the Copper pile doesn't scale with numbers of players.  Existing Copper junkers are gated in some way -- Ambassador by the starting Copper in your deck (people are unlikely to buy more just to send to others); Noble Brigand and Jester by having to hit specific cards in the opponents deck (non-Treasures for NB, Copper for Jester); Mountebank by the built in Curse bane.

I understand where you are coming from, don't get me wrong. What about if "Flooder" gave a Copper that was specifically gained in-hand, so effectively giving opponents +$1 on their first turn after you play it. Now is it an attack? Maybe, but not necessarily. What if it gives them 2 Coppers in hand? I'm just trying to say that it is truly a complicated affair and it's best to avoid this design space when possible for that exact reason.

Pseudo-attacks sure are interesting to think about (if not design), even if they can cause head-aches.

[Just a Rube]

I understand where you are coming from, don't get me wrong. What about if "Flooder" gave a Copper that was specifically gained in-hand, so effectively giving opponents +$1 on their first turn after you play it. Now is it an attack? Maybe, but not necessarily. What if it gives them 2 Coppers in hand? I'm just trying to say that it is truly a complicated affair and it's best to avoid this design space when possible for that exact reason.

Pseudo-attacks sure are interesting to think about (if not design), even if they can cause head-aches.

It's still an attack. The fact that Soothsayer lets your opponents draw a card doesn't mean Soothsayer is not an attack, even though it helps the opponent while junking his/her deck.

Are there times an opponent would like to be affected by an attack? Sure, as anyone with a hand of 5 junk cards in a minion game can attest. Likewise tunnels against militia. Those cases don't make either minion or militia not be attacks.

But we're kind of straying from the OP here. Can you think of other examples of cards that wouldn't work (well) in-person but might online?

[heron]

Walled Village doesn't work very well in-person; I can't check to tell if my opponent has a Google+ account.

[Destry]

Tracking all the possible victory points is too much hassle in person, but is open information. How about a catch-up card?

Friar
Action - $2

+2 Action
If any opponent has more victory points than you, +1 Card and you may trash one card
If all opponents have more victory points than you, +1 Card and you may trash one card.


Possibly too strong for 2-player. I like the idea of deliberately buying a curse to active the Friars, and trying to time when to pull ahead.

[eHalcyon]

Tracking all the possible victory points is too much hassle in person, but is open information. How about a catch-up card?

Friar
Action - $2

+2 Action
If any opponent has more victory points than you, +1 Card and you may trash one card
If all opponents have more victory points than you, +1 Card and you may trash one card.


Possibly too strong for 2-player. I like the idea of deliberately buying a curse to active the Friars, and trying to time when to pull ahead.

I like the concept.  One possible flaw is that the total VPs is NOT open information when Masquerade is getting played in a game with more than 2 players.

[SirPeebles]

Looking at Tower again, I wonder if it might work out even better (well, differently in a still interesting way) as a $5 card rather than a $2 card.  At $2, you can use it to gain some engine pieces, and it becomes a nice card to spend a spare $2 on.  As a $5 card, it becomes a card which can plausibly gain Provinces given a suitable strategy.  One comparison to make would be Horn of Plenty.  Horn of Plenty requires a variety of cards, but also helps you out in the mean time gaining both variety and the engine pieces you need to put it all together.  Maybe a $5 Tower should give +$1 too, or gain to the top of your deck so that it can more quickly put high value cards into play.

[SirPeebles]

Adding to what eHalcyon said, even in the absence of Masquerade, VP totals are not something that one is permitted to count.  A card which cares about current VP also opens up lots of confusion about whether Band of Misfits played as Great Hall is worth 1 VP while in play, or whether an Island set aside, a Province on your Native Village mat, or a Haven'd Harem technically contributes to your current score, or if the contribution only manifests itself when returned to your deck.

Edit:  I've changed my mind about the stricken text being a legitimate argument against Friar.  One of the perks of playing Friar could be that it reveals who is ahead, just as Hermit allows you to look through your discard pile and Philosopher's Stone permits you to count your deck (which could be nice if you have a Gardens deck)

[sudgy]

Adding to what eHalcyon said, even in the absence of Masquerade, VP totals are not something that one is permitted to count.  A card which cares about current VP also opens up lots of confusion about whether Band of Misfits played as Great Hall is worth 1 VP while in play, or whether an Island set aside, a Province on your Native Village mat, or a Haven'd Harem technically contributes to your current score, or if the contribution only manifests itself when returned to your deck.

Edit:  I've changed my mind about the stricken text being a legitimate argument against Friar.  One of the perks of playing Friar could be that it reveals who is ahead, just as Hermit allows you to look through your discard pile and Philosopher's Stone permits you to count your deck (which could be nice if you have a Gardens deck)

You can always count your deck...

Also, remember that this is in the online only cards thread.

[SirPeebles]

I was of course referring to the discard pile, not the draw pile.

Edit:  Still, that is a good example of how fickle the terminology is.  Technically, when you play a Chancellor and put your deck into your discard pile, all of your Gardens drop to 0 VP since your deck then has 0 cards.

[eHalcyon]

I was of course referring to the discard pile, not the draw pile.

Edit:  Still, that is a good example of how fickle the terminology is.  Technically, when you play a Chancellor and put your deck into your discard pile, all of your Gardens drop to 0 VP since your deck then has 0 cards.

No?  "Deck" does not mean just your draw pile.

[SirPeebles]

I was of course referring to the discard pile, not the draw pile.

Edit:  Still, that is a good example of how fickle the terminology is.  Technically, when you play a Chancellor and put your deck into your discard pile, all of your Gardens drop to 0 VP since your deck then has 0 cards.

No?  "Deck" does not mean just your draw pile.

It does in the rules.

During the game, a player’s cards are usually in three
parts: his Deck (which he draws cards from), his hand, and his
Discard pile. The player draws cards from his own Deck and
discards cards to his own Discard pile. When his Deck is exhausted
and the player needs to draw or reveal cards from his Deck, he
shuffles his Discard pile to reform his Deck.

[eHalcyon]

I was of course referring to the discard pile, not the draw pile.

Edit:  Still, that is a good example of how fickle the terminology is.  Technically, when you play a Chancellor and put your deck into your discard pile, all of your Gardens drop to 0 VP since your deck then has 0 cards.

No?  "Deck" does not mean just your draw pile.

It does in the rules.

During the game, a player’s cards are usually in three
parts: his Deck (which he draws cards from), his hand, and his
Discard pile. The player draws cards from his own Deck and
discards cards to his own Discard pile. When his Deck is exhausted
and the player needs to draw or reveal cards from his Deck, he
shuffles his Discard pile to reform his Deck.

Huh. I stand corrected.

[Kirian]

Looking at Tower again, I wonder if it might work out even better (well, differently in a still interesting way) as a $5 card rather than a $2 card.  At $2, you can use it to gain some engine pieces, and it becomes a nice card to spend a spare $2 on.  As a $5 card, it becomes a card which can plausibly gain Provinces given a suitable strategy.  One comparison to make would be Horn of Plenty.  Horn of Plenty requires a variety of cards, but also helps you out in the mean time gaining both variety and the engine pieces you need to put it all together.  Maybe a $5 Tower should give +$1 too, or gain to the top of your deck so that it can more quickly put high value cards into play.

Or hey, make it even crazier:

Tower
Action - $0+*

+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash this card.  If you do, gain a cheaper card.
----
When you buy or gain this card, you may name its price.  Each time you play this card, the cost of this card increases by 1.


Edge case: Gain Towers with HoP at $8, trash them later for Provinces without trashing HoP!

[Simon (DK)]

Looking at Tower again, I wonder if it might work out even better (well, differently in a still interesting way) as a $5 card rather than a $2 card.  At $2, you can use it to gain some engine pieces, and it becomes a nice card to spend a spare $2 on.  As a $5 card, it becomes a card which can plausibly gain Provinces given a suitable strategy.  One comparison to make would be Horn of Plenty.  Horn of Plenty requires a variety of cards, but also helps you out in the mean time gaining both variety and the engine pieces you need to put it all together.  Maybe a $5 Tower should give +$1 too, or gain to the top of your deck so that it can more quickly put high value cards into play.

Or hey, make it even crazier:

Tower
Action - $0+*

+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash this card.  If you do, gain a cheaper card.
----
When you buy or gain this card, you may name its price.  Each time you play this card, the cost of this card increases by 1.


Edge case: Gain Towers with HoP at $8, trash them later for Provinces without trashing HoP!

It doesn't work rule-wise.
"When you buy or gain" means after you've bought or gained the card. At that point you've already payed for it.
When you're trying to buy or gain it, it has no cost.

A solution would be having it as an overpay card, but then if you gain it without buying it first, it will always start at 0.

[LastFootnote]

Sorry to necro this thread. I just thought of what might be the simplest and most obvious card with "state", so I felt compelled to post it.

Stockpile
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
When you play this, it's is worth $1 per time it's been played this game (counting this).

Not as complex or cool as Kirian's Tower, but maybe compelling enough to work.

[yuma]

Bored Gamer
$6
Treasure

+ 1 Buy
Worth $1 per minute of lag time you have experienced during this game due to an unstable online platform (rounded down).

[Awaclus]

Bored Gamer
$6
Treasure

+ 1 Buy
Worth $1 per minute of lag time you have experienced during this game due to an unstable online platform (rounded down).

Way too powerful for $6.

[scott_pilgrim]

Bored Gamer
$6
Treasure

+ 1 Buy
Worth $1 per minute of lag time you have experienced during this game due to an unstable online platform (rounded down).

Way too powerful for $6.

Strictly better than Gold!

[heron]

Parade: Action, $2

+$2
Trash this and gain the cheapest action card costing more than this, if there is one. Put a Parade Sticker on that card.
—————————
When you play a card with a Parade Sticker, trash it and gain the cheapest action card costing more than it. Transfer the Parade Sticker to the gained card.

[cluckyb]

Parade: Action, $2

+$2
Trash this and gain the cheapest action card costing more than this, if there is one. Put a Parade Sticker on that card.
—————————
When you play a card with a Parade Sticker, trash it and gain the cheapest action card costing more than it. Transfer the Parade Sticker to the gained card.

Stickers are a pretty cool online only idea. Could also do something like:


Sharehold: Action/Victory: $5

Reveal a card from your hand. Put a Sharehold Sticker on it then return it to your hand.
—————————
Worth 1 VP for every 3 cards in your deck with a Sharehold sticker (rounded down)



or

Investor. Action $4

Reveal an action card from your hand. Put an Investor Sticker on it then return it to your hand.

When you play an action card, +$1 per Investor sticker on it.


or


Jinx. Action/Attack $4

Each other player reveals the top card of their deck. If it is an action or treasure card, put a Jinx sticker on it. In either case, they return it to the top of their deck.

When a player plays a card with a Jinx sticker they may trash it. If they do not, they gain a curse.

[soulnet]

I think revealing Moat or having Lighthouse in play when an Attack is played makes someone unaffected by the card, even the "while in play" part. I don't think anywhere says that you are only unaffected from the above the line text.