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[Nato]

Hey everyone. This is my first post here and I wanted to thank everyone in this community for making it what it is!

My wife and I just purchased Dominion last week. We knew we were addicted when we ordered Prosperity just a few days later... Anyway, i've played probably 50 games total, both on iso and irl, and determined that among my many weaknesses, I need to learn to count VP better. A lot of times I lose, I thought i was winning and bought the last province only to find out I was in fact losing.

Does anyone have any tips to share? There's probably quite a few ways to track it: number and types of VP cards bought, total score (which you calculate as things happen), delta vs my score.

Just wondering what has worked for all of you!

[mischiefmaker]

On isotropic I play with the point counter enabled. Some people think this is cheating or frown upon it...I see where they're coming from, I guess, but I find that it just removes tedium on my part, since I can always count cards on paper if I want. *shrug*

Every now and again I will find myself in a game without it enabled; for those games I typically count deltas ("I ambassador an estate, returning 2 to the supply...ok, I'm down 3...he ambassadors a curse, returning 1, now I'm down 5", etc.). This is basically what I do when I play 2p live as well, although I tend to play more multiplayer games live which tend to overwhelm my little brain -- I just play as well as I can and hope I have the most VP, since you have much less control over when the game ends in a 4p or even 3p game.

This is for the standard VP cards, including fixed-point kingdom cards. I treat variable point cards on a case-by-case basis:

Duke: track separately ("I'm up 6 and down 3-4 in duchies...ok he bought a duke, now I'm up 2 and down 3-4 duchies")
Fairgrounds/Silk Road: count # bought, figure out how much they're worth towards the end of the game
Gardens: last reshuffle before I think the game will end, see how many cards are in my deck, add the cards in hand, track deck size from there on out
Vineyards: track total vineyards bought, hope I have more actions (basically give up )

Curious to hear what high-level players, especially those that choose not to play with the point counter, do. Especially when they play live.

[jonts26]

Welcome!

Counting points is definitely a lot easier in 2p games. You don't need to keep track of what your opponent buys, just what you do. Knowing what you have in your deck plus what's in the supply (plus what's in the trash), lets you figure out what your opponent has. Also remember that things like VP chips (you'll get to use those in prosperity) are not hidden. You are allowed to see those point totals at any time. It's a little harder in multiplayer as you have to actually track someone else's buys as well.

The really hard parts are things like gardens or vineyards which do not have a fixed VP value. I rarely actually keep track of those points, and it's only cost me once or twice in the many games i've played.

[Epoch]

Speaking as a decidedly mediocre player, here's basically what I do:

I keep track of the number of Provinces that I have bought.  Or Colonies, if it's a Colony game.

Since I play two-player, which it sounds like you do too, and since I can see the number of Provinces left in supply, that tells me how well the other player is doing.

And, you know?  Honestly?  That gets me a lot of the way there.  Sure, not all the way there, but a lot of it.

If it's going to come down to Duchies, usually that's because you're pretty certain that you are going to split the Provinces evenly (probably, you're stuck at 3 Provinces each).  So when you start buying Duchies, you count that instead of Provinces -- the first time you buy a Duchy, look at the size of the supply pile.  That tells you how many the other player has already bought.  Then you know everything.

I'm a little unconvinced that counting points at a finer level than that really increases your win rate.  See Geronimoo's experimentation with implementing the PPR.  Most of the time, if you could end the game but you shouldn't because you'll lose if you do, what happens is then your opponent ends the game instead.  And wins.

[jonts26]

I agree with Epoch here. Point counting is very often not a factor in the game. Knowing the score will help you steal a win every now and then, but it wont often turn a defeat into a victory. If, for example, I know buying the last province will result in me losing, I'll take the duchy instead. But odds are I'm still going to lose.

That said, depending on your gaming background, counting points might come pretty easy to you. I play a lot of card games, so I have no trouble keeping score, so hey, why not.

[DG]

Personally I keep track of the number of each type of vp card with each player and typically lose count when I need to track more than provinces and duchies.


Some games are much more important to track than others. Counting curses is always a good idea too, just so you know how much to expect from each player's deck and what options you have for a quick or slow finish.

[ChaosRed]

I often track the score on a notepad, scratching it really fast as to not slow down the game. I even do this in real games (I don't think the rules forbid this, but they might, been a while since I read the base rules).

It's not that important to do in games without Curse attacks or alt-victory cards, but once the victory conditions are a little more convoluted, I find keeping score quickly REALLY helps. For example, I just finished a game where I had attacked with Ill-Gotten Gains a lot. Tracking the score was a gold mine, because I knew that buying the last Province would produce a one-point win, even though the opponent had managed to trash all 10 Curses I gave him.

One small piece of advice, from one noob to another...

1. Stick around here, there are some amazing players here.

2. Stick to Province games, just don't enter a Colony game yet. I find they are much more complex.

3. Bias the selection of the sets to base set (or whatever other set you are very familiar with). I stopped doing this and really regret it. The more familiar the board is to you, the better you will play it.

4. Don't get so good at this, your wife loses interest in playing. I purposely govern my play on isotropic to just a few games a day. I don't want to become so exceptional, my wife has no chance. The key reason I play is for the social aspect of it...otherwise what's the point? Victory? Sure, that's nice too, but I'd rather win at soccer, that way I win and I give my heart and lungs a nice work out.

5. Good luck and have fun and if you need more advice from another noob, please feel free to ask. Us noobs gotta stick together!

[Jimmmmm]

I always try to keep track of the score differences, but I usually give up with variable VP cards. I find counting is most helpful when you have a big turn and can then decide to empty piles rather than go for score because you know you're already up.

[Elyv]

Personally I keep track of the number of each type of vp card with each player and typically lose count when I need to track more than provinces and duchies.


Some games are much more important to track than others. Counting curses is always a good idea too, just so you know how much to expect from each player's deck and what options you have for a quick or slow finish.

Yeah, basically this. I almost never keep track of the curses, but if the game is anywhere near even it usually means a 5-5(or at worst, 6-4) split.

[WanderingWinder]

Keeping track of the score on paper is confirmedly illegal (by Donald X.; somebody want to find the post?). However, as he will tell you, if everybody agrees with it, it makes your gaming experience more enjoyable, and it doesn't violate the law where you are, go for it.

[ChaosRed]

Keeping track of the score on paper is confirmedly illegal (by Donald X.; somebody want to find the post?). However, as he will tell you, if everybody agrees with it, it makes your gaming experience more enjoyable, and it doesn't violate the law where you are, go for it.

Cool, good to know. I'll still do it games with Curse attacks and alt-victory cards online though.

[ftl]

This post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=111.msg1147#msg1147 and this post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=508.msg7019#msg7019 .

I never got around to posting about point counters, and then Doug added one so there was a lot less to say, but obv. keeping open points or what have you is a rules variant, not cheating, and I give everyone permission to play any rules variants they want for any games they want. If you are using a rules variant against an opponent's wishes though, that's obv. cheating, why is that even a question.

We finally have an official ruling on the legallity of an automatic point counter?

A point counter is for sure a game variant, not allowed by the rules.

I encourage people to play whatever game variants they want, provided they comply with local laws and are agreed upon by all players.

I guess these are about automatic point trackers, at least.

[guided]

Keeping score on paper is outside the scope of the rules as printed just like keeping score in your head is outside the scope of the rules. Forum posts by the designer to the contrary don't change that reality. If he wanted scorekeeping by external means to be against the rules, he should have said so in the rulebook.

I would find it impossibly rude if somebody in my group got out a piece of paper and started tracking the score of a Dominion game. I certainly don't do this. It's a matter of decorum based on the standards of the people you play with. But it's not actually illegal since the rulebook doesn't even wave in the general direction of addressing it.

[WanderingWinder]

Keeping score on paper is outside the scope of the rules as printed just like keeping score in your head is outside the scope of the rules. Forum posts by the designer to the contrary don't change that reality. If he wanted scorekeeping by external means to be against the rules, he should have said so in the rulebook.

I would find it impossibly rude if somebody in my group got out a piece of paper and started tracking the score of a Dominion game. I certainly don't do this. It's a matter of decorum based on the standards of the people you play with. But it's not actually illegal since the rulebook doesn't even wave in the general direction of addressing it.

It's also not illegal to physically take the cards from your opponents' hands then? That's not expressly prohibited, either. Man, I just don't by the 'it's-not-against-the-printed-rules-therefore-it's-legal argument'. But ok, while I think point-tracking with paper should be one of those obviously-illegal things, I guess other people don't.

[Jimmmmm]

I guess the rules say what you are and aren't allowed to do with the cards. During his first game (no Curses), a friend I was teaching how to play assumed you could trash cards whenever you like. Do the rules explicitly say 'you may not trash cards whenever you like'? I would suspect not. Do they say 'you may not do anything with the cards except for things explicitly allowed by the rules'? I don't think so, but that seems to be the idea. In terms of anything else, some things are obviously illegal (the rules don't say that you're not allowed to sneak behind your opponent and take a look at his hand before playing your Possession) and some things are obviously legal (they also don't say that you're allowed to talk about what you're going to have for dinner after you finish playing). Donald could have written a full-on encyclopaedia detailing every possible thing you're allowed to do within a game of Dominion and finished with 'and everything else is a variant'. But the general public have played enough card games to know what is generally acceptable and what is not. But where does that leave point-counting? I think it's obvious that you're allowed to do it in your head: the game can't try to dictate what you are and aren't allowed to think (okay, maybe blackjack might have something to say about this, but I am yet to receive a good explanation as to why card counting should be illegal). Are you allowed to do it on paper? Well, as Donald states, a public scoring system as part of the game itself is not mentioned in the rules, and so is a variant. In terms of keeping score privately on a piece of paper... the rules don't mention what you can and can't physically do while you're waiting for your turn to come around. In my opinion, privately scoring on paper is a violation of the spirit of the rules rather than the rules themselves.

[Epoch]

(okay, maybe blackjack might have something to say about this, but I am yet to receive a good explanation as to why card counting should be illegal).

It's legal in both the sense of "the rules of blackjack" and "the actual law."  Casinos just don't LIKE people doing it, and exercise their right to ask people to leave the establishment.  It's like if you're an obnoxious drunk: nothing against the rules of blackjack if you're an obnoxious drunk, but you might be asked to leave anyway.

But, yeah, it's perfectly all right to count cards in blackjack.  It might get you banned from casinos if you're good at it.

[guided]

Man, I just don't by the 'it's-not-against-the-printed-rules-therefore-it's-legal argument'.

I never said that, and I find it rather irritating every time this strawman is thrown up. I said scorekeeping on paper was outside the scope of the rules. Stealing people's cards (altering the game state in direct violation of the actual rules, I mean come on, seriously?) or peeking at their hand to discern private information are well within the scope of the rules. Using outside aids to track information that is already public is not.

In my opinion, privately scoring on paper is a violation of the spirit of the rules rather than the rules themselves.

The rules do not affect any spirit whatsoever with respect to writing things on paper during the game. It's simply outside the scope of what they deign to address.

If you're an obnoxious drunk at the table (thanks Epoch!), or if you whip out a piece of paper and start keeping score, I'll find you very rude and seek not to play with you anymore. But I won't tell you you're breaking the rules, because the rules have absolutely nothing to say (or imply, or even hint at) on the subject.

[WanderingWinder]

How is looking at someone else's cards (thus gaining information you don't have a right to) in the scope of the rules while writing them down not? What is the basis for that distinction, because I don't get it.
And no, the stealing thing wasn't serious, it was an absurd exaggeration to illustrate a point.

[guided]

How is looking at someone else's cards (thus gaining information you don't have a right to) in the scope of the rules while writing them down not?

I don't understand the question. Looking at someone's hand gives you private-to-them information about what's in their hand. No amount of mental or on-paper tracking of public information will tell you what's in someone else's hand.

The contents of everyone's deck (as opposed to their hand) is knowable from public information, with the sole exception of passing cards via Masquerade in a multiplayer game. I certainly don't propose anyone should be entitled to know the exact score in a multiplayer game involving Masquerade, since the exact score will potentially depend on private information.

[WanderingWinder]

How is looking at someone else's cards (thus gaining information you don't have a right to) in the scope of the rules while writing them down not?

I don't understand the question.

You nevertheless answered it.
I can see how the public/private thing could be a legit distinction, I just don't think it is.

[guided]

If you believe public information can't be legitimately tracked, why is it OK to track it mentally? Can I pause to commit score changes to memory? Can I count points on my fingers? Can I make up a little rhyme about the current score every time it changes? What if I'm rhyming in code that only I understand; is that better or worse? Where exactly on the scale of practicality is this bright line you have in mind between public information tracking that is OK vs. that which is against the rules and constitutes a variant separate from the official game?

Public information is public. If the rules don't make any comment about what sort of tracking is or isn't allowed for public information, then it's up to the playgroup's standards of decorum to make that determination.

The very least a game can do if it doesn't want you to track scores is say outright that scoring is private even if knowable from public information - I'll happily agree that someone writing down a running score for a Smallworld game is cheating, since the rules deliberately address the issue of "private" scoring, bringing the tracking of that information under the scope of the rules. Indeed, in order to respect the spirit of the rules I specifically avoid even keeping mental track of the exact scores when playing Smallworld.

[WanderingWinder]

I of course don't have a problem of people mentally tracking it. But using the outside aid of the pencil-and-paper, the point tracker, whatever, that's what I have an issue with. I'm of the mind that you shouldn't have any aids external to yourself (beyond, you know clothes and stuff).

[rod-]

But, yeah, it's perfectly all right to count cards in blackjack.  It might get you banned from casinos if you're good at it.

It's perfectly all right to keep track of score at dominion.  It might get you banned from some peoples' games if you're good at it. 

[popsofctown]

What is "yourself", though.  It's a philosophical question.  If I used machinery to encode and store my memories would that be internal or external?  If I have a prosthetic arm or transplanted kidney, internal or external?  What if I don't have a prosthetic arm, but I have a swiss army knife that I never let go of? 


If the answer is "none of those things record information", well, by counterexample I'm next to positive that I could record information in scratches on my fingernails if I wanted to.  That's no more obviously cheating than you using the your auditory memory to remember the cards is, or you using visual memory to remember your scores (actual best way, according to Moonwalking with Einstein.  Which includes simple techniques that are enough to completely invalidate the short term memory section of an IQ test).

It makes more sense to be more flexible than "nothing that can help you that does not have your DNA in it".

[jonts26]

Oh man. I have no idea where this thread has gone, but it is certainly not answering the OP's question anymore. Perhaps everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it at that or move this discussion somewhere else if it's really that important.