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Nato

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Keeping Score
« on: October 27, 2011, 06:25:14 pm »
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Hey everyone. This is my first post here and I wanted to thank everyone in this community for making it what it is!

My wife and I just purchased Dominion last week. We knew we were addicted when we ordered Prosperity just a few days later... Anyway, i've played probably 50 games total, both on iso and irl, and determined that among my many weaknesses, I need to learn to count VP better. A lot of times I lose, I thought i was winning and bought the last province only to find out I was in fact losing.

Does anyone have any tips to share? There's probably quite a few ways to track it: number and types of VP cards bought, total score (which you calculate as things happen), delta vs my score.

Just wondering what has worked for all of you!
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2011, 07:07:40 pm »
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On isotropic I play with the point counter enabled. Some people think this is cheating or frown upon it...I see where they're coming from, I guess, but I find that it just removes tedium on my part, since I can always count cards on paper if I want. *shrug*

Every now and again I will find myself in a game without it enabled; for those games I typically count deltas ("I ambassador an estate, returning 2 to the supply...ok, I'm down 3...he ambassadors a curse, returning 1, now I'm down 5", etc.). This is basically what I do when I play 2p live as well, although I tend to play more multiplayer games live which tend to overwhelm my little brain -- I just play as well as I can and hope I have the most VP, since you have much less control over when the game ends in a 4p or even 3p game.

This is for the standard VP cards, including fixed-point kingdom cards. I treat variable point cards on a case-by-case basis:

Duke: track separately ("I'm up 6 and down 3-4 in duchies...ok he bought a duke, now I'm up 2 and down 3-4 duchies")
Fairgrounds/Silk Road: count # bought, figure out how much they're worth towards the end of the game
Gardens: last reshuffle before I think the game will end, see how many cards are in my deck, add the cards in hand, track deck size from there on out
Vineyards: track total vineyards bought, hope I have more actions (basically give up :P)

Curious to hear what high-level players, especially those that choose not to play with the point counter, do. Especially when they play live.
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jonts26

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2011, 07:09:20 pm »
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Welcome!

Counting points is definitely a lot easier in 2p games. You don't need to keep track of what your opponent buys, just what you do. Knowing what you have in your deck plus what's in the supply (plus what's in the trash), lets you figure out what your opponent has. Also remember that things like VP chips (you'll get to use those in prosperity) are not hidden. You are allowed to see those point totals at any time. It's a little harder in multiplayer as you have to actually track someone else's buys as well.

The really hard parts are things like gardens or vineyards which do not have a fixed VP value. I rarely actually keep track of those points, and it's only cost me once or twice in the many games i've played.
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Epoch

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2011, 07:12:22 pm »
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Speaking as a decidedly mediocre player, here's basically what I do:

I keep track of the number of Provinces that I have bought.  Or Colonies, if it's a Colony game.

Since I play two-player, which it sounds like you do too, and since I can see the number of Provinces left in supply, that tells me how well the other player is doing.

And, you know?  Honestly?  That gets me a lot of the way there.  Sure, not all the way there, but a lot of it.

If it's going to come down to Duchies, usually that's because you're pretty certain that you are going to split the Provinces evenly (probably, you're stuck at 3 Provinces each).  So when you start buying Duchies, you count that instead of Provinces -- the first time you buy a Duchy, look at the size of the supply pile.  That tells you how many the other player has already bought.  Then you know everything.

I'm a little unconvinced that counting points at a finer level than that really increases your win rate.  See Geronimoo's experimentation with implementing the PPR.  Most of the time, if you could end the game but you shouldn't because you'll lose if you do, what happens is then your opponent ends the game instead.  And wins.
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jonts26

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2011, 07:16:23 pm »
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I agree with Epoch here. Point counting is very often not a factor in the game. Knowing the score will help you steal a win every now and then, but it wont often turn a defeat into a victory. If, for example, I know buying the last province will result in me losing, I'll take the duchy instead. But odds are I'm still going to lose.

That said, depending on your gaming background, counting points might come pretty easy to you. I play a lot of card games, so I have no trouble keeping score, so hey, why not.
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DG

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2011, 07:51:16 pm »
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Personally I keep track of the number of each type of vp card with each player and typically lose count when I need to track more than provinces and duchies.


Some games are much more important to track than others. Counting curses is always a good idea too, just so you know how much to expect from each player's deck and what options you have for a quick or slow finish.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2011, 08:05:50 pm »
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I often track the score on a notepad, scratching it really fast as to not slow down the game. I even do this in real games (I don't think the rules forbid this, but they might, been a while since I read the base rules).

It's not that important to do in games without Curse attacks or alt-victory cards, but once the victory conditions are a little more convoluted, I find keeping score quickly REALLY helps. For example, I just finished a game where I had attacked with Ill-Gotten Gains a lot. Tracking the score was a gold mine, because I knew that buying the last Province would produce a one-point win, even though the opponent had managed to trash all 10 Curses I gave him.

One small piece of advice, from one noob to another...

1. Stick around here, there are some amazing players here.

2. Stick to Province games, just don't enter a Colony game yet. I find they are much more complex.

3. Bias the selection of the sets to base set (or whatever other set you are very familiar with). I stopped doing this and really regret it. The more familiar the board is to you, the better you will play it.

4. Don't get so good at this, your wife loses interest in playing. I purposely govern my play on isotropic to just a few games a day. I don't want to become so exceptional, my wife has no chance. The key reason I play is for the social aspect of it...otherwise what's the point? Victory? Sure, that's nice too, but I'd rather win at soccer, that way I win and I give my heart and lungs a nice work out. :)

5. Good luck and have fun and if you need more advice from another noob, please feel free to ask. Us noobs gotta stick together!
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2011, 08:21:28 pm »
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I always try to keep track of the score differences, but I usually give up with variable VP cards. I find counting is most helpful when you have a big turn and can then decide to empty piles rather than go for score because you know you're already up.
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Elyv

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2011, 08:21:54 pm »
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Personally I keep track of the number of each type of vp card with each player and typically lose count when I need to track more than provinces and duchies.


Some games are much more important to track than others. Counting curses is always a good idea too, just so you know how much to expect from each player's deck and what options you have for a quick or slow finish.
Yeah, basically this. I almost never keep track of the curses, but if the game is anywhere near even it usually means a 5-5(or at worst, 6-4) split.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2011, 08:56:52 pm »
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Keeping track of the score on paper is confirmedly illegal (by Donald X.; somebody want to find the post?). However, as he will tell you, if everybody agrees with it, it makes your gaming experience more enjoyable, and it doesn't violate the law where you are, go for it.

ChaosRed

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2011, 09:06:47 pm »
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Keeping track of the score on paper is confirmedly illegal (by Donald X.; somebody want to find the post?). However, as he will tell you, if everybody agrees with it, it makes your gaming experience more enjoyable, and it doesn't violate the law where you are, go for it.

Cool, good to know. I'll still do it games with Curse attacks and alt-victory cards online though. :)
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ftl

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2011, 09:12:47 pm »
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This post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=111.msg1147#msg1147 and this post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=508.msg7019#msg7019 .

I never got around to posting about point counters, and then Doug added one so there was a lot less to say, but obv. keeping open points or what have you is a rules variant, not cheating, and I give everyone permission to play any rules variants they want for any games they want. If you are using a rules variant against an opponent's wishes though, that's obv. cheating, why is that even a question.

We finally have an official ruling on the legallity of an automatic point counter?
A point counter is for sure a game variant, not allowed by the rules.

I encourage people to play whatever game variants they want, provided they comply with local laws and are agreed upon by all players.

I guess these are about automatic point trackers, at least.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2011, 09:42:02 pm »
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Keeping score on paper is outside the scope of the rules as printed just like keeping score in your head is outside the scope of the rules. Forum posts by the designer to the contrary don't change that reality. If he wanted scorekeeping by external means to be against the rules, he should have said so in the rulebook.

I would find it impossibly rude if somebody in my group got out a piece of paper and started tracking the score of a Dominion game. I certainly don't do this. It's a matter of decorum based on the standards of the people you play with. But it's not actually illegal since the rulebook doesn't even wave in the general direction of addressing it.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2011, 10:04:05 pm »
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Keeping score on paper is outside the scope of the rules as printed just like keeping score in your head is outside the scope of the rules. Forum posts by the designer to the contrary don't change that reality. If he wanted scorekeeping by external means to be against the rules, he should have said so in the rulebook.

I would find it impossibly rude if somebody in my group got out a piece of paper and started tracking the score of a Dominion game. I certainly don't do this. It's a matter of decorum based on the standards of the people you play with. But it's not actually illegal since the rulebook doesn't even wave in the general direction of addressing it.
It's also not illegal to physically take the cards from your opponents' hands then? That's not expressly prohibited, either. Man, I just don't by the 'it's-not-against-the-printed-rules-therefore-it's-legal argument'. But ok, while I think point-tracking with paper should be one of those obviously-illegal things, I guess other people don't.

Jimmmmm

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2011, 10:30:34 pm »
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I guess the rules say what you are and aren't allowed to do with the cards. During his first game (no Curses), a friend I was teaching how to play assumed you could trash cards whenever you like. Do the rules explicitly say 'you may not trash cards whenever you like'? I would suspect not. Do they say 'you may not do anything with the cards except for things explicitly allowed by the rules'? I don't think so, but that seems to be the idea. In terms of anything else, some things are obviously illegal (the rules don't say that you're not allowed to sneak behind your opponent and take a look at his hand before playing your Possession) and some things are obviously legal (they also don't say that you're allowed to talk about what you're going to have for dinner after you finish playing). Donald could have written a full-on encyclopaedia detailing every possible thing you're allowed to do within a game of Dominion and finished with 'and everything else is a variant'. But the general public have played enough card games to know what is generally acceptable and what is not. But where does that leave point-counting? I think it's obvious that you're allowed to do it in your head: the game can't try to dictate what you are and aren't allowed to think (okay, maybe blackjack might have something to say about this, but I am yet to receive a good explanation as to why card counting should be illegal). Are you allowed to do it on paper? Well, as Donald states, a public scoring system as part of the game itself is not mentioned in the rules, and so is a variant. In terms of keeping score privately on a piece of paper... the rules don't mention what you can and can't physically do while you're waiting for your turn to come around. In my opinion, privately scoring on paper is a violation of the spirit of the rules rather than the rules themselves.
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Epoch

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2011, 10:43:47 pm »
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(okay, maybe blackjack might have something to say about this, but I am yet to receive a good explanation as to why card counting should be illegal).

It's legal in both the sense of "the rules of blackjack" and "the actual law."  Casinos just don't LIKE people doing it, and exercise their right to ask people to leave the establishment.  It's like if you're an obnoxious drunk: nothing against the rules of blackjack if you're an obnoxious drunk, but you might be asked to leave anyway.

But, yeah, it's perfectly all right to count cards in blackjack.  It might get you banned from casinos if you're good at it.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2011, 11:11:41 pm »
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Man, I just don't by the 'it's-not-against-the-printed-rules-therefore-it's-legal argument'.
I never said that, and I find it rather irritating every time this strawman is thrown up. I said scorekeeping on paper was outside the scope of the rules. Stealing people's cards (altering the game state in direct violation of the actual rules, I mean come on, seriously?) or peeking at their hand to discern private information are well within the scope of the rules. Using outside aids to track information that is already public is not.

In my opinion, privately scoring on paper is a violation of the spirit of the rules rather than the rules themselves.
The rules do not affect any spirit whatsoever with respect to writing things on paper during the game. It's simply outside the scope of what they deign to address.

If you're an obnoxious drunk at the table (thanks Epoch!), or if you whip out a piece of paper and start keeping score, I'll find you very rude and seek not to play with you anymore. But I won't tell you you're breaking the rules, because the rules have absolutely nothing to say (or imply, or even hint at) on the subject.

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2011, 11:28:36 pm »
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How is looking at someone else's cards (thus gaining information you don't have a right to) in the scope of the rules while writing them down not? What is the basis for that distinction, because I don't get it.
And no, the stealing thing wasn't serious, it was an absurd exaggeration to illustrate a point.

guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2011, 11:34:20 pm »
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How is looking at someone else's cards (thus gaining information you don't have a right to) in the scope of the rules while writing them down not?
I don't understand the question. Looking at someone's hand gives you private-to-them information about what's in their hand. No amount of mental or on-paper tracking of public information will tell you what's in someone else's hand.

The contents of everyone's deck (as opposed to their hand) is knowable from public information, with the sole exception of passing cards via Masquerade in a multiplayer game. I certainly don't propose anyone should be entitled to know the exact score in a multiplayer game involving Masquerade, since the exact score will potentially depend on private information.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2011, 11:38:41 pm »
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How is looking at someone else's cards (thus gaining information you don't have a right to) in the scope of the rules while writing them down not?
I don't understand the question.
You nevertheless answered it.
I can see how the public/private thing could be a legit distinction, I just don't think it is.

guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 11:52:28 pm »
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If you believe public information can't be legitimately tracked, why is it OK to track it mentally? Can I pause to commit score changes to memory? Can I count points on my fingers? Can I make up a little rhyme about the current score every time it changes? What if I'm rhyming in code that only I understand; is that better or worse? Where exactly on the scale of practicality is this bright line you have in mind between public information tracking that is OK vs. that which is against the rules and constitutes a variant separate from the official game?

Public information is public. If the rules don't make any comment about what sort of tracking is or isn't allowed for public information, then it's up to the playgroup's standards of decorum to make that determination.

The very least a game can do if it doesn't want you to track scores is say outright that scoring is private even if knowable from public information - I'll happily agree that someone writing down a running score for a Smallworld game is cheating, since the rules deliberately address the issue of "private" scoring, bringing the tracking of that information under the scope of the rules. Indeed, in order to respect the spirit of the rules I specifically avoid even keeping mental track of the exact scores when playing Smallworld.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 11:59:17 pm by guided »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2011, 12:03:52 am »
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I of course don't have a problem of people mentally tracking it. But using the outside aid of the pencil-and-paper, the point tracker, whatever, that's what I have an issue with. I'm of the mind that you shouldn't have any aids external to yourself (beyond, you know clothes and stuff).

rod-

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 12:16:42 am »
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But, yeah, it's perfectly all right to count cards in blackjack.  It might get you banned from casinos if you're good at it.
It's perfectly all right to keep track of score at dominion.  It might get you banned from some peoples' games if you're good at it. 
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popsofctown

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 12:25:02 am »
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What is "yourself", though.  It's a philosophical question.  If I used machinery to encode and store my memories would that be internal or external?  If I have a prosthetic arm or transplanted kidney, internal or external?  What if I don't have a prosthetic arm, but I have a swiss army knife that I never let go of? 


If the answer is "none of those things record information", well, by counterexample I'm next to positive that I could record information in scratches on my fingernails if I wanted to.  That's no more obviously cheating than you using the your auditory memory to remember the cards is, or you using visual memory to remember your scores (actual best way, according to Moonwalking with Einstein.  Which includes simple techniques that are enough to completely invalidate the short term memory section of an IQ test).

It makes more sense to be more flexible than "nothing that can help you that does not have your DNA in it".
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jonts26

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 12:28:59 am »
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Oh man. I have no idea where this thread has gone, but it is certainly not answering the OP's question anymore. Perhaps everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it at that or move this discussion somewhere else if it's really that important.
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popsofctown

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2011, 12:36:17 am »
+1

Poppycock.  I may have just inspired OP to scratch his left pinky every time he buys a Duchy.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2011, 12:37:39 am »
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(okay, maybe blackjack might have something to say about this, but I am yet to receive a good explanation as to why card counting should be illegal).

It's legal in both the sense of "the rules of blackjack" and "the actual law."  Casinos just don't LIKE people doing it, and exercise their right to ask people to leave the establishment.  It's like if you're an obnoxious drunk: nothing against the rules of blackjack if you're an obnoxious drunk, but you might be asked to leave anyway.

But, yeah, it's perfectly all right to count cards in blackjack.  It might get you banned from casinos if you're good at it.

Thanks for the clarification. I obviously don't play much Blackjack.

In my opinion, privately scoring on paper is a violation of the spirit of the rules rather than the rules themselves.
The rules do not affect any spirit whatsoever with respect to writing things on paper during the game. It's simply outside the scope of what they deign to address.

Well okay, the spirit of the game then. I think (and people who know can correct me on this) that the game was designed (and is best played) for the players to know the score up to the extent that they can keep track of in their head if they choose to do so. So while doing more than this is technically not against any particular rule in the rulebook, it's not how the game was meant to be played, which I think we can all agree on.
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jonts26

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2011, 12:47:32 am »
+1

Poppycock.  I may have just inspired OP to scratch his left pinky every time he buys a Duchy.

I'll accept your argument, but only for the use of the word poppycock.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2011, 12:57:58 am »
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Well okay, the spirit of the game then. I think (and people who know can correct me on this) that the game was designed (and is best played) for the players to know the score up to the extent that they can keep track of in their head if they choose to do so. So while doing more than this is technically not against any particular rule in the rulebook, it's not how the game was meant to be played, which I think we can all agree on.
I already discussed decorum, which is what you're talking about here. I think you can find broad consensus (including from me) that tracking Dominion scores on paper would be rude. Still, rudeness and cheating are different things.

It's just question-begging, though, the idea that Dominion was specifically designed to be most fun for each individual player by that player and each other person they play with tracking the score in their heads exactly as much as each of them is willing to do. I think someone with no interest in mentally tracking the score will find it less fun to play with a group who is obsessed with mentally tracking the exact score, but certainly nobody has cause to complain that the other players are cheating or even violating the spirit of the game.
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danshep

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2011, 01:35:24 am »
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It all depends on your approach to the game.

If dominion is a fun game for you to play with friends around the table with the expectation that winning or losing is a fairly random event, putting the extra effort in to do score tracking detracts from the people having fun aspect, so it's rude.

If, however, you're approaching dominion as battle of strategies, which I'm sure a lot of the higher-level player do, you want the game to be determined by strategy as much as possible. I don't want to lose because I didn't notice when my opponent trashed two curses, but I don't want to win that way either. If all players are playing with this view of the game, a point tracker makes the game better for everybody.

Memorization of public information is NOT a strategic aspect of the game (taking into account the difference in players memory skills is a strategic decision, remembering whether you bought 3 duchies or 2 is not).
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DStu

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2011, 02:20:09 am »
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@offtopic:
I just glanced through the ( German Version of the  " International Skat and Tournament Order ", which for me is the vogon example of german bureaucraty, with 16 paragraphs on how to give each 10 cards to 3 players, and I have not found any hint on what it thinks using a paper to keep track of the (puplic information) game state that you are not allowed to recover by other means like counting cards, except (in bold face!) (translated from the german version, the english version somehow misses the point I want to make
Quote
Alle Teilnehmer haben sich in jeder Situation fair, sachlich und sportlich zu verhalten und kein fadenscheiniges Recht zu suchen.
In every situation, every participant has to behave fairly, sportingly and objectively [ not sure if that are the correct adverbs all, but the important point is the next one anyway ] , and may not seek for paltry right.
Maybe we need something like that also.

@topic:
I usually keep track of my victory cards. Sometimes only the "important" ones, but usually I try to also remeber how many GreatHalls I got. You anyway want to be sure if the difference of them crosses and important barrier (like 3vp or 6vp) to see if you need a Duchy or two to compensate for the difference...
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2011, 08:14:51 am »
0

@topic:
FtF multiplayer games: I track Province/Colony counts and have a pretty good idea of counts of other victory cards. I keep up with trashing & cursing decently well but not religiously or anything. In general, I'm much more willing to end the game in 2nd place (or be happy with a good non-winning score in general) and much less willing to try desperation tactics (like the $15 Duchy buy or whatever) in a multiplayer game where there are multiple other people who could end the game before my next turn.

2p games (mostly online): I track Province/Colony and Duchy counts exactly, with probably about 95% accuracy. I track Estate counts (including trashing) with maybe 80% accuracy. If I end up in a situation where I need the exact count, I mentally replay the game to get the best count I can (and I'm pretty good at this even when I may not have tracked the score exactly to that point). Or, at least, that's all what I used to do: I started using the official isotropic point tracker (requiring the consent of both players, notice!) a couple months ago, and it's taken the tedium of tracking scores out of the game for me.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2011, 08:41:05 am »
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i don't think it is all that hard to keep track of points in 2p.  you just have to keep track of what you have and what you have trashed.  by then looking at the supply and trash pile you can figure out what your opponent has pretty easily.  gardens/fairgrounds/silk road/vineyard is a little trickier, but i still keep track in my head if it seems like it is a close game and it might matter. 

alternately, i will sometimes just keep track of point differential.  it doesn't matter much if the score is 24-20 or 44-40, it matters that the difference is 4.

i dont care either way on the presence of the point tracker, and just leave that box set as don't care.  if others play with it, sure, if not oh well. im not sure what the big deal is myself.  as long as it is information that we both have free access to, i don't see how it could affect the game in any negative way.
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popsofctown

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2011, 01:40:12 pm »
0

There's an iPhone app you can pay money for that will flash Dominion victory cards at you on the screen and test whether you can remember the score at the end so you can practice card counting on the go.

Explain to me a universe where something is right with that.
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Nato

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2011, 02:33:14 pm »
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Wow, thanks for all of the replies! I had no idea this would spark such a heated debate about ethics...

The bottom line for me I think is: practice.
As i improve, I have also started to take the view danshep mentioned: that dominion is a battle of strategies. One part of a well-executed strategy is knowing when to end the game and to end it in your favor. That's why I asked in the first place.

popsofctown, i can definitely think of a better use for my time (and money) than that.. like buying another expansion...  ;D
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ChaosRed

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2011, 03:37:25 pm »
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Explain to me a universe where something is right with that.

Without coming across as too pedantic and contradictory, I imagine the app is pretty good at sharpening short term memory in general, and helping you develop memory maps. Which actually, is a pretty useful skill for your brain.

I have to do similar exercises, because I am old, and as a programmer you work your short term memory a lot, transitioning things to long term memory all the time. Something our brains are not really very good at and get worse at, as you get older.

Practicing this stuff helps. Which of course, reveals the fact that when I do keep score on a quick scratch pad, I am really cheating myself.

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biopower

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2011, 12:07:42 am »
0

There's an iPhone app you can pay money for that will flash Dominion victory cards at you on the screen and test whether you can remember the score at the end so you can practice card counting on the go.

Explain to me a universe where something is right with that.

There are numerous exercises in card counting in general with, y'know, actual playing cards. I don't feel like there are any ethical qualms to card-counting in poker, so I don't really believe that there is any moral problem with an app that does the same thing for Dominion.
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Karrow

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2011, 12:00:30 pm »
0

Back to the OP.  There are exceptions, but in the big scheme of things it usually doesn't matter. 

If ending the game will cause you to loose, what are your other options?  If you don't end the game, your opponent who is winning probably will.  Realistically in most cases, instead of buying that province you can get one duchy.  So all your opponent needs to do is buy the prov to win, or buy a duchy to return to the exact situation when you started your turn.  In most cases, your options are to end the game losing, or drag the game on and lose.

In 3-4player if you can end the game and don't, odds are that you will not get another turn.  If you can't pull a lead, you are loosing no matter what.

So really 95+% of the time if you're beat, you're beat.  By skill or luck they built a better deck and played better.  Dragging it out will not change that.  If you don't have a way to pull off 3 buys or have a kings court/possession combo in your deck, why bother.

As someone suggested, if you want to count, only keep track of your opponents score difference.  It keeps the numbers small.  It's usually easier to remember that your opponent is +2 rather than "he has 21 and I have 19".
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popsofctown

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2011, 12:14:10 pm »
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Studies show that arbitrary memorization doesn't tend to improve memorization in a different application.  The app is only useful for dominion.

There's nothing immoral about the app.  I just think something is wrong when people have to do work just so they can play the game well.
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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2011, 06:39:09 pm »
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There's nothing immoral about the app.  I just think something is wrong when people have to do work just so they can play the game well.
That's true of pretty much any strategy game worthy of the name. I know I did a lot of work to become an IM.
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theory

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2011, 06:52:20 pm »
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There's nothing immoral about the app.  I just think something is wrong when people have to do work just so they can play the game well.
That's true of pretty much any strategy game worthy of the name. I know I did a lot of work to become an IM.
This is true of everything in life.  No one ever excels at anything without deliberative practice.

You might argue that this app is a foolish use of time, insofar it spends a lot of effort for very little gain, but this whole forum is living proof that people like to work in order to get better at a board game :)
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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2011, 07:03:37 pm »
0

I presume that the 'have to do work to play the game well' comment was really meant to be 'have to do so much work that doesn't really have anything to do with the strategy of the game to play a strategy game well'.
And I disagree with theory on the point about practice. I know plenty of people who are exceptional at certain things without much or any practice. To be fair, they more or less always get more exceptional with more practice.

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2011, 07:50:35 pm »
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If you believe public information can't be legitimately tracked, why is it OK to track it mentally? Can I pause to commit score changes to memory? Can I count points on my fingers? Can I make up a little rhyme about the current score every time it changes? What if I'm rhyming in code that only I understand; is that better or worse? Where exactly on the scale of practicality is this bright line you have in mind between public information tracking that is OK vs. that which is against the rules and constitutes a variant separate from the official game?

What is your opinion on using computerized anagram generators in Scrabble?
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Kirian

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2011, 11:28:04 pm »
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Studies show that arbitrary memorization doesn't tend to improve memorization in a different application.  The app is only useful for dominion.

There's nothing immoral about the app.  I just think something is wrong when people have to do work just so they can play the game well.

There's a sucker born every minute.  The only thing vaguely immoral about it is that someone's making money off of... something you could do by yourself with a deck of cards.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2011, 12:37:12 am »
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What is your opinion on using computerized anagram generators in Scrabble?
I'd suggest you make your arguments directly rather than asking loaded questions, particularly given that I've repeatedly addressed the points you seem to be hinting at.

I would not play FtF scrabble with someone who is using an anagram generator, since a generator will replace some very large fraction of the skills the game seeks to test. A Dominion point tracker, on the other hand, is tinkering slightly at the margins with a tedious bit of tracking that has little bearing on the skills required to play the game well. And even so, I've already stated (several times) that I would not play FtF Dominion with people who insist on writing the score down on paper, because this would fall outside my personal standards of decorum for FtF play. For online play, I don't care, since the tracking is not distracting from the game nor giving anybody some huge advantage (especially since I can figure the score pretty accurately even if I haven't been making an effort to track it, in the rather rare cases where knowing the score is the difference between winning and losing).

I would expect a Scrabble tournament to specifically forbid the usage of an anagram generator, and of course if it's against the rules of your tournament then it's against the rules of your tournament. Similarly a Dominion tournament could forbid the use of paper or smartphones or whatever else to track the score, and then it would be against the rules. And as I've already stated (again, several times) any game that wants tracking something on paper to be illegal can simply print in the rules that it's illegal, or at least establish clear intent by specifying in the rules that scoring is secret or private. Dominion's rules establish no such intent. Do Scrabble's? I have no idea.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:59:40 am by guided »
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Donald X.

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2011, 08:04:14 am »
+8

And as I've already stated (again, several times) any game that wants tracking something on paper to be illegal can simply print in the rules that it's illegal, or at least establish clear intent by specifying in the rules that scoring is secret or private. Dominion's rules establish no such intent. Do Scrabble's? I have no idea.
I am cool with people playing Dominion by whatever variants they want, provided that all players have agreed to them, including using an automatic score tracker.

I disagree vehemently with what you're saying here though.

In all games, within game contexts, you may only do things expressly allowed by the rules. This is what it means to have rules; it is the covenant you have agreed to by agreeing to play. You can play tic-tac-toe in a van while yodeling, but putting a Z in a box is out of the question.

It is not up to any rulebook to say that you can't use a memory aid; rather it is up to the rulebook to specifically allow it, or else you can't use one. It doesn't matter how much the game for you is not about this memorization, how much the memory thing seems tangential to whatever fun the game provides; you do not get to use anything other than your brain to handle that memorization, unless of course you are explicitly playing a variant. You also do not get to - and this is important - scrawl notes to yourself on your belly using your own blood. Games between players are played between players, and "players" do not by default include notebooks or pencils, even makeshift ones that are constructed from the players. Expecting all rulebooks to repeat this is nonsense, and anyway would offend people who don't like to talk about blood.

My original long essay on this topic also addresses the question of glasses; I will leave that as an exercise for the reader here.
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barsooma

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2011, 09:26:36 am »
+2

And as I've already stated (again, several times) any game that wants tracking something on paper to be illegal can simply print in the rules that it's illegal, or at least establish clear intent by specifying in the rules that scoring is secret or private. Dominion's rules establish no such intent. Do Scrabble's? I have no idea.
I am cool with people playing Dominion by whatever variants they want, provided that all players have agreed to them, including using an automatic score tracker.

I disagree vehemently with what you're saying here though.

In all games, within game contexts, you may only do things expressly allowed by the rules. This is what it means to have rules; it is the covenant you have agreed to by agreeing to play. You can play tic-tac-toe in a van while yodeling, but putting a Z in a box is out of the question.

It is not up to any rulebook to say that you can't use a memory aid; rather it is up to the rulebook to specifically allow it, or else you can't use one. It doesn't matter how much the game for you is not about this memorization, how much the memory thing seems tangential to whatever fun the game provides; you do not get to use anything other than your brain to handle that memorization, unless of course you are explicitly playing a variant. You also do not get to - and this is important - scrawl notes to yourself on your belly using your own blood. Games between players are played between players, and "players" do not by default include notebooks or pencils, even makeshift ones that are constructed from the players. Expecting all rulebooks to repeat this is nonsense, and anyway would offend people who don't like to talk about blood.

My original long essay on this topic also addresses the question of glasses; I will leave that as an exercise for the reader here.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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PettyThiefLout

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2011, 09:39:24 am »
0

My original long essay on this topic also addresses the question of glasses; I will leave that as an exercise for the reader here.

Link to that? It's not under the "bible of Donald" section.
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Dauntless

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2011, 11:04:16 am »
0

If you are using a non-standard aid without informing your opponent it falls somewhere between "poor form" and "cheating". For Dominion this shouldn't be an issue. In an FtF game you can easily explain why you need your score pad. On Isotropic there is a score tracker (although I can't figure out how to activate it). If you are using a point tracker that isn't the built-in one... Why? Just get out of the moral grey area and use what is provided.
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Octo

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2011, 12:02:59 pm »
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Well, of course you can explain why you have your score pad and if you're both okay with that then it's all fine, but the point is what happens if the other guy thinks that the pad is poor form and doesn't want you to use it? Are they within their "game-rights" to refuse you that privilege?

Donald X. is clear on this: the use of a score pad is a variant, and you must decide whether to play a variant, or to play standard rules.

A more demonstrative example could be this: there's nowhere in the rules that says you can't run every purchase through a simulator before you make it to find the optimal purchase. Now, sure, you could both agree that it's fine to do that and so go for it, but then the game has become something slightly different from standard dominion and is most certainly a variant.
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barsooma

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2011, 01:09:44 pm »
0

Well, of course you can explain why you have your score pad and if you're both okay with that then it's all fine, but the point is what happens if the other guy thinks that the pad is poor form and doesn't want you to use it? Are they within their "game-rights" to refuse you that privilege?

Donald X. is clear on this: the use of a score pad is a variant, and you must decide whether to play a variant, or to play standard rules.

A more demonstrative example could be this: there's nowhere in the rules that says you can't run every purchase through a simulator before you make it to find the optimal purchase. Now, sure, you could both agree that it's fine to do that and so go for it, but then the game has become something slightly different from standard dominion and is most certainly a variant.

Donald X couldn't even decide how to properly play KC and durations, so who cares what he thinks is a variant?
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ftl

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2011, 01:51:25 pm »
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WTH, barsooma? What's with the trolling? Seriously, two one-line posts, the last one saying "who cares what Donald X thinks"?
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rinkworks

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2011, 01:52:55 pm »
+2

Well, of course you can explain why you have your score pad and if you're both okay with that then it's all fine, but the point is what happens if the other guy thinks that the pad is poor form and doesn't want you to use it? Are they within their "game-rights" to refuse you that privilege?

Donald X. is clear on this: the use of a score pad is a variant, and you must decide whether to play a variant, or to play standard rules.

A more demonstrative example could be this: there's nowhere in the rules that says you can't run every purchase through a simulator before you make it to find the optimal purchase. Now, sure, you could both agree that it's fine to do that and so go for it, but then the game has become something slightly different from standard dominion and is most certainly a variant.

Donald X couldn't even decide how to properly play KC and durations, so who cares what he thinks is a variant?

He changes his mind once -- on a pretty inconsequential point, at that -- and so now we shouldn't care what the designer of this game says the rules are?  Bit of an overreaction, don't you think?

I'm kind of shocked at some of the disrespect toward Donald that gets casually tossed around sometimes.  Not so much here, but I remember one of the responses to one of the card previews on BGG said something like, "I'm sorry but that card seems BROKEN."  What the hell.  A year of Donald and his team of testers pounding at that card, and some upstart pronounces a judgment of failure 30 minutes after he's seen the card and before he's even tried it.

Back to the point at hand.  If one can't extend Donald some trust in his game design skills -- and in particular treat his willingness to change his mind when he thinks it would be appropriate to do so, rather than rotely labelling such a thing as evidence of utter failure -- then why is one playing this game in the first place?  Surely there are other games one would deem more perfect to invest in.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2011, 02:02:58 pm »
0

I'm kind of shocked at some of the disrespect toward Donald that gets casually tossed around sometimes.  Not so much here, but I remember one of the responses to one of the card previews on BGG said something like, "I'm sorry but that card seems BROKEN."  What the hell.  A year of Donald and his team of testers pounding at that card, and some upstart pronounces a judgment of failure 30 minutes after he's seen the card and before he's even tried it.

You are right about Donald X (obviously), but I also really want to highlight the second point that a team of people play test these cards before they are released. NOTHING reveals a card's strength (or lack of it) than play testing it thoroughly. When Donald presented IGG for example, he said something to the effect of, "this is what it turned out costing", meaning during play-testing they realized the card's strength warranted a 5$ cost. A LOT of games, have much, much sloppier play testing teams. Anyone whoever played terrible games like MLB Showdown know this, and even classic games like Axis and Allies have produced utterly BROKEN variants, that were clearly never play-tested thoroughly.

We're pretty lucky Donald cares enough about his brand, to ensure each expansion is nicely balanced and thoroughly play-tested, it doesn't happen in a lot of games. Indeed, to my knowledge, no combination of Dominion cards are banned, after several expansions this is amazing. Even Magic had to "ban" certain cards, because they were broken.

As for the topic, I will still scratch notes to myself when I play on isotropic. Isotropic is a learning tool for me (a rather rough one, the way its designed). I know the scratch pad violates the "spirit" of the rules, but I still need that crutch to learn the game effectively. It's better than the electronic point tracker, because I can jot notes as things happen (like how many curses I still have lingering in my hand), which help me learn the scope of the game. Again, I understand the spirit of the rules are not intended to play this way, but I still find the notes invaluable.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 03:21:35 pm by ChaosRed »
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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2011, 02:34:36 pm »
0

I'm kind of shocked at some of the disrespect toward Donald that gets casually tossed around sometimes.  Not so much here, but I remember one of the responses to one of the card previews on BGG said something like, "I'm sorry but that card seems BROKEN."  What the hell.  A year of Donald and his team of testers pounding at that card, and some upstart pronounces a judgment of failure 30 minutes after he's seen the card and before he's even tried it.

Remember, some people still think Chapel is broken.  And are pretty vehement about it.

Agreed with ChaosRed on the playtesting thing.  No particular card is broken.  There are cards I would ban in a tournament if I personally ran one, but for logistics rather than game-breaking reasons.
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Epoch

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2011, 02:50:19 pm »
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Remember, some people still think Chapel is broken.  And are pretty vehement about it.

Agreed with ChaosRed on the playtesting thing.  No particular card is broken.  There are cards I would ban in a tournament if I personally ran one, but for logistics rather than game-breaking reasons.

Most discussions of what is "broken" end up being semantic exercises in determining the definition of the term "broken."

Jack of All Trades is...  a card that makes 90% of all Province games that it's in a boring exercise in playing the Two Jacks bot.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2011, 03:24:20 pm »
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Jack of All Trades is...  a card that makes 90% of all Province games that it's in a boring exercise in playing the Two Jacks bot.

Yeah I agree, it becomes a semantic discussion at that point, the difference between "very strong" and "broken" is somewhat subjective. I would say, that as strong as JoaT apparently is, it is nowhere near as broken as other deleterious mistakes I've seen made in other games. In other words, if JoaT is the poster-child of a "broken" Dominion card, that's a pretty good looking poster, compared to a lot of other games.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2011, 04:57:56 pm »
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Actually that's exactly how I feel about what Donald wrote. I do not subscribe to his philosophical position on this issue, nor do I find his arguments convincing. Saying "you do not get to use anything other than your brain to handle that memorization, unless of course you are explicitly playing a variant" is flatly begging the question.

Players will probably find it easier to play Dominion if they sit on chairs. They may find it easier to shuffle with sleeves. They may find they need glasses to properly see the cards. None of these things are allowed by the rulebook either. What is or is not "within [the] game context" is for the rulebook to scope out, or failing that for the players to agree based on their standards of decorum.
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Donald X.

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2011, 05:09:29 pm »
+1

Players will probably find it easier to play Dominion if they sit on chairs. They may find it easier to shuffle with sleeves. They may find they need glasses to properly see the cards. None of these things are allowed by the rulebook either. What is or is not "within [the] game context" is for the rulebook to scope out, or failing that for the players to agree based on their standards of decorum.
Dude what?

When you play Dominion, do you shuffle whenever you want to, like say to get rid of an Estate someone left on top with Spy? The rulebook doesn't say you can't.

When you play Dominion, do you eat cookies?

Do you not see the difference?
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ftl

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2011, 07:12:04 pm »
+1

When you play Dominion, do you shuffle whenever you want to, like say to get rid of an Estate someone left on top with Spy? The rulebook doesn't say you can't.

I thought it did...

Quote from: the rulebook
Shuffle only when new cards needed.

(emphasis in the original)

I'm pretty sure the rulebook is pretty exhaustive when describing what to do with cards, I remember being very impressed with it because it was so explicit about how the Discard pile worked instead of just saying 'discard cards' and leaving it at that.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 07:14:13 pm by ftl »
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2011, 07:16:08 pm »
+1

When you play Dominion, do you shuffle whenever you want to, like say to get rid of an Estate someone left on top with Spy? The rulebook doesn't say you can't.
The rulebook absolutely does say you can't do this, so "Dude what?" right back at you.

What the rulebook doesn't do is give even the remotest hint that it cares about external aids like reading glasses (to more easily see the cards) or pen-and-paper. Other games' rulebooks (like Smallworld was my example earlier) do hint that they care about tracking public information.
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Donald X.

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2011, 07:35:28 pm »
+5

The rulebook absolutely does say you can't do this, so "Dude what?" right back at you.

What the rulebook doesn't do is give even the remotest hint that it cares about external aids like reading glasses (to more easily see the cards) or pen-and-paper. Other games' rulebooks (like Smallworld was my example earlier) do hint that they care about tracking public information.
Okay, obv. I didn't check, what were the odds.

I cited glasses, man. I did not go into details there but really, do you need that, you do not. Of course you can use glasses, hearing aids, and artificial kidneys.

Rules tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. You can't do things that rules don't let you, inside the game. Outside the game, whatever. If a rulebook mentions that you can't do something, that's just to answer common questions from foolish people; if you aren't told you can, you can't, that is what it means to be rules.

It should be clear that rules work this way, because games are just utterly messed up otherwise. People can produce ridiculous questions all day. Can you put a card from your hand on your deck for next turn whenever you want? Hey maybe the rulebook covers that, I am not checking. It for sure does not answer every ridiculous question of this nature because there is no end to them.

If you accept that rules say what you can do, rather than what you can't - and why would you, this is the internet - then the question becomes, is taking notes like eating or is it actually relevant. And of course it's relevant. The game has a memory component, and of course there are games that are nothing but memory, to make it clear that memory can be an element of a game.

Also, while we're here, in Dominion, you may not take notes. I am making this clear for anyone who somehow does not get it. You can't. You didn't know before, so that wasn't cheating, but if you do now, it's cheating. I would get into the idea of variants but let's keep this simple.
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danshep

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2011, 09:52:29 pm »
+3

What is your opinion on using computerized anagram generators in Scrabble?

I know this is really stretching the topic, but Scrabble is actually a fairly deep strategic game even after you equalize the vocubulary of the players (such as letting players use an anagram generator, or as is the case for most online scrabbles, guess at letter sequences that may or may not be words). It's not just about playing the biggest scoring word at any time. You've got to hold onto strong letters for bingos, protect and expand to score multipliers and recognise placement opportunities.

My opinion of anagram generators is that playing games using them will make you a better scrabble player. My opinion of the point trackers is that using them will make you a better dominion player.

Edit: Though just to be clear, if you play scrabble with an anagram generator, you're playing Scrabble++, not Scrabble. Same as with dominion. I LOVE playing Dominion++, but I don't expect to be able be able to count points if I haven't discussed it with everybody beforehand, so in person and non-point-counter games, I just play Dominion.

Really guys, you're arguing with LETTER of the law, when you get to talk to the guy that wrote the damn law. The SPIRIT is the important part.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 09:59:22 pm by danshep »
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2011, 11:55:37 pm »
+2

You can't do things that rules don't let you, inside the game.
I totally agree with this, but see, I reject the notion that tracking public information on the side is "inside the game" unless the rules deliberately include it in their scope. Taking notes is certainly more relevant than eating, and it's more relevant than wearing glasses... but wearing glasses is also clearly more relevant than eating. Where on the continuum of relevance is the bright line drawn between "cheating" and "well duh obviously that's OK"?

This is in practice a complete non-issue. Play groups will use or not use whatever variants or non-variants they like. Tournaments will have rules in addition to the published rules and (failing that) tournament directors to make rulings on the spot. Undetectable cheating or non-cheating on the internet is equally undetectable whether it's technically "cheating" or not. I'm arguing about nothing more or less, in the end, than whether the designer is entitled to use words like "variant" and "cheating" with respect to a particular practice. There's an xkcd comic that comes to mind.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 11:59:03 pm by guided »
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ftl

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2011, 12:06:46 am »
0

Yeah. I had a wall-of-text that I posted here, and then realized that this thread is better off without it and deleted it. SIWOTI indeed...
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Donald X.

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2011, 12:47:24 am »
+2

I totally agree with this
hooray

, but see, I reject the notion that tracking public information on the side is "inside the game" unless the rules deliberately include it in their scope. Taking notes is certainly more relevant than eating, and it's more relevant than wearing glasses... but wearing glasses is also clearly more relevant than eating. Where on the continuum of relevance is the bright line drawn between "cheating" and "well duh obviously that's OK"?
It seems so straightforward. Dominion does not have a vision element. If you have trouble seeing the cards, that's not part of the game. In a vision contest, you either would not get to wear glasses, or would only get to wear them in a qualified manner - the competitor is Joe plus glasses, and we can compare that to the competitor that is Joe with no glasses. But Dominion, no vision element at all. There is no point at which the game challenges you to see something, visually.

Dominion does have a memory element though. It is not a pure memory game, but there is a memory element. This mostly comes up with scoring, but is called out specifically by cards like Wishing Well.

That is what is different about memory vs. vision in Dominion. If you don't see that difference I don't know what to tell you. It's right there.

Wait, here's another way for you to look at it. Someone with glasses, that's someone with sub-par vision. The glasses are correcting their vision. They are not wearing x-ray specs for an edge, or what have you; they need glasses. But someone with a notebook, that's not someone with memory damage. It's not that guy in Memento. It's just someone not interested in the memory component of the game.

This is in practice a complete non-issue.
hooray

I'm arguing about nothing more or less, in the end, than whether the designer is entitled to use words like "variant" and "cheating" with respect to a particular practice.
Makes no sense. The rules determine what's a variant; if you aren't following the rules you are playing a variant. That's what a variant is; it's a variation on the rules. I guess it's English speakers who get to decide this, by common usage? That is what they have decided though. The rules can be computer-generated; they speak for themselves.
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tlloyd

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2011, 02:47:36 am »
+2

I totally agree with this
hooray

, but see, I reject the notion that tracking public information on the side is "inside the game" unless the rules deliberately include it in their scope. Taking notes is certainly more relevant than eating, and it's more relevant than wearing glasses... but wearing glasses is also clearly more relevant than eating. Where on the continuum of relevance is the bright line drawn between "cheating" and "well duh obviously that's OK"?
It seems so straightforward. Dominion does not have a vision element. If you have trouble seeing the cards, that's not part of the game. In a vision contest, you either would not get to wear glasses, or would only get to wear them in a qualified manner - the competitor is Joe plus glasses, and we can compare that to the competitor that is Joe with no glasses. But Dominion, no vision element at all. There is no point at which the game challenges you to see something, visually.

Dominion does have a memory element though. It is not a pure memory game, but there is a memory element. This mostly comes up with scoring, but is called out specifically by cards like Wishing Well.

That is what is different about memory vs. vision in Dominion. If you don't see that difference I don't know what to tell you. It's right there.

Wait, here's another way for you to look at it. Someone with glasses, that's someone with sub-par vision. The glasses are correcting their vision. They are not wearing x-ray specs for an edge, or what have you; they need glasses. But someone with a notebook, that's not someone with memory damage. It's not that guy in Memento. It's just someone not interested in the memory component of the game.

This is in practice a complete non-issue.
hooray

I'm arguing about nothing more or less, in the end, than whether the designer is entitled to use words like "variant" and "cheating" with respect to a particular practice.
Makes no sense. The rules determine what's a variant; if you aren't following the rules you are playing a variant. That's what a variant is; it's a variation on the rules. I guess it's English speakers who get to decide this, by common usage? That is what they have decided though. The rules can be computer-generated; they speak for themselves.

Donald, I've got all the love in the world for ya, but I have to side with Guided here. I personally am of the opinion that differential ability to count cards or keep running totals in your head should have very little to do with who wins a game of Dominion. I prefer to see the victory go to the player with better insight into card interactions, better ability to plan ahead and/or adapt to the other player's strategy, etc. But when I lose to Guided because he can walk back through the game turn-by-turn and thereby assure himself that he can win by three-piling, well credit to him but man I just can't do that. (Guided is also a stronger player on the dimensions I care about, but I'm trying to make a point).

In my mind a memory differential is (or should be) no more determinative of the outcome than an eyesight differential. So it doesn't seem remotely obvious to me that keeping track of the score on paper is cheating ("it doesn't say you can do that in the rulebook!") while using eyeglasses is not. I am not at all surprised that other people (yourself included) strongly disagree, but it's no more obvious than the "it" on Ironworks is unambiguous. (Sorry, low blow  ;D)

I think that puts the issue squarely in the realm of decorum, as Guided has said about a thousand times now. If you felt so strong about this, you could have put something in the rulebook. And given how meticulous and precise the Dominion card texts and rulebooks are (a credit to you), I just don't buy the argument that the rulebook's silence on an issue should automatically be interpreted as a prohibition.
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DStu

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2011, 03:05:43 am »
+1

Quote
If you felt so strong about this, you could have put something in the rulebook.

It's not really consequent to put something like "I feel this is so obvious that it does not need to put in the rulebook" in the rulebook.
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ftl

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2011, 03:40:24 am »
0

It doesn't need to be in the rulebook. It's an academic difference - it's a difference in philosophy for what you call "the rules of Dominion" and what is just custom. In the end, with that in the rules or not, games of Dominion will be played the same way. In-person, you'll agree with your opponents about what to do, regardless of what you're calling it. In tournaments, the tournament organizers will make it clear. Online, well, Isotropic has its optional score tracker. The game's done quite fine without this in the rulebook.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2011, 08:43:37 am »
0

Makes no sense. The rules determine what's a variant; if you aren't following the rules you are playing a variant. That's what a variant is; it's a variation on the rules. I guess it's English speakers who get to decide this, by common usage? That is what they have decided though. The rules can be computer-generated; they speak for themselves.
Naked question-begging in an insulting tone (and this isn't the first time ITT) is unbecoming. We've been arguing about whether score-keeping is in the scope of "following the rules" or not, so saying "My conclusion with respect to the central issue of this debate is correct, so obviously you're an idiot," is rather poor form.

It seems so straightforward. Dominion does not have a vision element. If you have trouble seeing the cards, that's not part of the game. In a vision contest, you either would not get to wear glasses, or would only get to wear them in a qualified manner - the competitor is Joe plus glasses, and we can compare that to the competitor that is Joe with no glasses. But Dominion, no vision element at all. There is no point at which the game challenges you to see something, visually.

Dominion does have a memory element though. It is not a pure memory game, but there is a memory element. This mostly comes up with scoring, but is called out specifically by cards like Wishing Well.
You know what Donald, I actually buy this argument. I concede that wearing glasses is categorically different from keeping score on paper with respect to the Dominion rules, and I can't think of another example of an external aid that would better illustrate the point I was trying to argue. You've convinced me that pen-and-paper scoring is sufficiently relevant to fall inside the scope of the rules.

Let me ask though, since this hinges on players not bringing anything outside themselves as a game skill aid: Is it OK to keep score on my fingers? Can I use my fingernails to scratch out the score on my arm, or even to make scoring motions on my palm that help me with visual memory? Can I make up little mnemonics under my breath about the score? None of these things is outside myself as a player. If the answer is "Yes" to all these questions I'm on the same page with that, though I suspect group standards of decorum will put the kibosh on certain of these practices in the wild. If the answer is "No" to any of them I would ask again where the line is to be drawn with respect to memory aids that do not use anything outside yourself.


tlloyd: Thanks for your kind words! I want to say though that I have specifically not been trying to make an argument that scorekeeping is legal just because I don't care about the memory element of the game. While it's an interesting point, I think it's more relevant to the debate of whether reasonable people should be open to allowing score-tracking at their table or online (even if we concede that it constitutes a "variant"). My central argument (which I now concede was flawed) was that external scorekeeping aids were outside the scope of the rules entirely.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 08:46:29 am by guided »
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Octo

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2011, 09:15:30 am »
+1

Quote from: Donald X.
You also do not get to - and this is important - scrawl notes to yourself on your belly using your own blood.
It seems to me that it's not a game of bodies and physicality (i.e. all of me vs all of you as you seem to be saying), it's a game of wits and mind. Your body is merely required to carry out the game decisions your mind thinks up.

(Not going to comment on any of the specific examples requested because don't want to put words into anyone's mouth, and also I'm genuinely curious about the distinction between mnemonics and paper)

With regard to "I don't think the game is about memory"....well, the creator just said it partly is. So it is. If you want to play a version that isn't, well, again, that's a variant. Your key phrases here are "In my mind" and "I personally", which should tell you the game in your head is probably your own version.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 09:21:22 am by Octo »
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2011, 09:29:45 am »
0

It seems to me that it's not a game of bodies and physicality (i.e. all of me vs all of you as you seem to be saying), it's a game of wits and mind. Your body is merely required to carry out the game decisions your mind thinks up.
This strikes me as a rather arbitrary distinction... even if you think the mind somehow transcends the physicality of the brain and body.

I specifically had the comment about scrawling notes in blood in mind when asking those questions. Appeal to authority is a 100% non-argument when one is debating directly with the authority :P
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Donald X.

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2011, 09:50:15 am »
+1

I personally am of the opinion that differential ability to count cards or keep running totals in your head should have very little to do with who wins a game of Dominion.
That's fine, it's just not relevant to the issue. You are still playing a variant if you use a notebook, even though you like your reasons for doing so.
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Donald X.

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2011, 10:10:56 am »
+1

Makes no sense. The rules determine what's a variant; if you aren't following the rules you are playing a variant. That's what a variant is; it's a variation on the rules. I guess it's English speakers who get to decide this, by common usage? That is what they have decided though. The rules can be computer-generated; they speak for themselves.
Naked question-begging in an insulting tone (and this isn't the first time ITT) is unbecoming. We've been arguing about whether score-keeping is in the scope of "following the rules" or not, so saying "My conclusion with respect to the central issue of this debate is correct, so obviously you're an idiot," is rather poor form.
I did not think I was being insulting there at all. I was not saying that with that good I-am-insulting-him feeling.

I guess you are finding the question mark insulting and well it not there to say "duh," it is there because we have not uh solidified what we are talking about language-wise and it's all tangential anyway. We would need to fill in some gaps and we haven't and so, question mark? Is this sentence relevant?

But I mean, I am a tactless guy, and love a witty put-down as much as the next guy, so, I am resigned to people thinking I am rude when I get involved in discussions of this nature online. Man, I'm rude. It's an honest rudeness dammit.

Anyway for sure I was thinking "who is this guy" as I typed some of the stuff in those posts, but that question mark is innocent.

You know what Donald, I actually buy this argument. I concede that wearing glasses is categorically different from keeping score on paper with respect to the Dominion rules, and I can't think of another example of an external aid that would better illustrate the point I was trying to argue. You've convinced me that pen-and-paper scoring is sufficiently relevant to fall inside the scope of the rules.
I am again pleased, it is rare that words convince people on the internet of anything. Not to insult you by calling you a person on the internet.

Let me ask though, since this hinges on players not bringing anything outside themselves as a game skill aid: Is it OK to keep score on my fingers? Can I use my fingernails to scratch out the score on my arm, or even to make scoring motions on my palm that help me with visual memory? Can I make up little mnemonics under my breath about the score? None of these things is outside myself as a player. If the answer is "Yes" to all these questions I'm on the same page with that, though I suspect group standards of decorum will put the kibosh on certain of these practices in the wild. If the answer is "No" to any of them I would ask again where the line is to be drawn with respect to memory aids that do not use anything outside yourself.
I am not cool with writing the score on your belly in your own blood, as I gave as an example previously; I am fine with saying the score out loud or using Ars Memorativa or what have you. When you write on yourself, you're using yourself as a notebook; it's a weird thing that only comes up to try to get around the rules. If you say the score out loud to help you remember, that's normal.

While it's an interesting point, I think it's more relevant to the debate of whether reasonable people should be open to allowing score-tracking at their table or online (even if we concede that it constitutes a "variant").
And again, I feel people should change the game any way they want to and agree on, however mild or severe.
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Davio

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2011, 10:34:14 am »
+2

This topic made me think about the way games handle VP's. I did some research on BGG and found that a game with a mechanic similar to Dominion is Puerto Rico. In Puerto Rico, players ship goods and receive VP's which they may put on their tableaux face-down. I checked the forums and their was a debate there as well.

This quote from Rene Wiersma says how I think about it:
Quote from: Rene Wiersma
We always play with VP's hidden. The reason that VP's are hidden are to prevent overt kingmaker situations and analysis paralysis in the endgame. With VP's hidden you will have an idea of who is in the lead, but not by exactly how much. This way you cannot perfectly calculate what is the optimal move, you have to go by estimation and intuition. This keeps the game going.

I think that for 2p games on Isotropic, using the point tracker is not that big of a deal. It may stall the game somewhat, but not by much. Isotropic games are very fast anyway, due to the fact that they don't require any physical interactions from the player (setup, shuffling, counting) other than clicking the mouse. Besides that, there is no way to make sure that a player isn't using a notepad behind his PC anyway, so it's a good option to have if you are real paranoid about it.

In real life, it's a different case for me. I often play with more than 2p when I play IRL and with any real life game, downtime should be kept to a minimum. Dominion excels as a game because of its speed and relative brevity. You can easily play 4 games within 2 hours (barring excesses of course). I wouldn't like it much if in a game with Gardens, Vineyards and Silk Roads every player takes 10 minutes to calculate the new scores after someone buys them.

I don't think I would allow notepads in a tournament, because it distorts the natural flow of the game. The VP information is available to anyone willing to keep track in their minds and it is up to every player if they want to do this.

Now I like Dominion (probably twice) as much as the next guy, but if anyone wants to bring out his notepad for a simple board game, he is not paying much respect to the golden rule of board gaming: just have fun! To me, the social interaction is the most fun part of real life board gaming and if everybody brings out their notepads, it just goes against that aspect. It's not a math tournament, it's a board game!
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2011, 10:38:37 am »
+1

So at the end of Return of the Jedi, we see this nice image of the Force ghosts of Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker. Those lucky enough to see it when it first came out saw Anakin portrayed by Sebastian Shaw. But not too long ago some guy named George came along and changed it, and now he's portrayed by Hayden Christensen. Now it's my understanding that this was a fairly unpopular change among die-hard fans. But if someone was to go up to George and tell him that he was wrong, that the "real" image of the Force ghosts had Sebastian Shaw in it, George could quite rightly say "No, the original image is non-canon. The image with Hayden Christensen is canon." Why is the new image canon? Exactly and precisely because George said so. It's his franchise, he can say that a game of Dominion on Tatooine between Donald and guided in which they each scrawl the score on their respective bellies with their own blood is canon if he wants to. So regardless of what actually came out originally at the movies, or how anyone else feels about Hayden, or Jar Jar Binks, or scoring with your own blood, what George says is canon is canon and what George says isn't canon isn't canon.

So what are the official rules of Dominion? Well, exactly the rules according to its creator. The rulebooks do their best to convey these rules both as completely and as succinctly as possible, but who has the higher authority? The rulebooks or the writer of the rulebooks? The books, as we know, are incomplete. We have an official "lose track" rule. We also have an official ruling on how Ironworks and Trader interact. Donald has added some rules that are not present in the rulebooks. He can do that - they're his rules.

Now we can argue all day about exactly what you can and can not infer from the Base game rulebook. But that seems a little, I don't know, narrow-minded given all the rules and rulings we've received since said rulebook was published. And why do we need to? We're lucky enough to have the creator of the game and knower/decider of all rules to tell us anything that we're not sure of from the rulebooks.

Of course, not everyone's so lucky. Not everyone reads these forums. Someone could go their whole Dominion life never knowing that a lose track rule exists, or what the official Ironworks + Trader ruling is, or that the official rules prohibit the use of pen and paper to track the scores. Do they really need to know? Probably not. The rulebooks are enough to teach them how to play the game. If they come across anything unclear from the books, the group makes a decision, they play that way from then on, and everyone's happy. But those of us who love Dominion enough to go on a forum about it have Donald to tell us exactly what the official rules of his game are.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 10:41:24 am by Jimmmmm »
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DStu

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2011, 10:45:40 am »
0

So at the end of Return of the Jedi, we see this nice image of the Force ghosts of Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker. Those lucky enough to see it when it first came out saw Anakin portrayed by Sebastian Shaw. But not too long ago some guy named George came along and changed it, and now he's portrayed by Hayden Christensen. Now it's my understanding that this was a fairly unpopular change among die-hard fans. But if someone was to go up to George and tell him that he was wrong, that the "real" image of the Force ghosts had Sebastian Shaw in it, George could quite rightly say "No, the original image is non-canon. The image with Hayden Christensen is canon." Why is the new image canon? Exactly and precisely because George said so. It's his franchise, he can say that a game of Dominion on Tatooine between Donald and guided in which they each scrawl the score on their respective bellies with their own blood is canon if he wants to. So regardless of what actually came out originally at the movies, or how anyone else feels about Hayden, or Jar Jar Binks, or scoring with your own blood, what George says is canon is canon and what George says isn't canon isn't canon.
Han shot first! period. I'm with Eric Cartman here...

Quote
So what are the official rules of Dominion? Well, exactly the rules according to its creator. The rulebooks do their best to convey these rules both as completely and as succinctly as possible, but who has the higher authority? The rulebooks or the writer of the rulebooks? The books, as we know, are incomplete. We have an official "lose track" rule. We also have an official ruling on how Ironworks and Trader interact. Donald has added some rules that are not present in the rulebooks. He can do that - they're his rules.
If I understood it correctly, the creator said that there are no erratas. So given this statement with highest authority, we just not care what the authority says.
And I think Ironworks+Traders is clear from everything that is written in the rulebooks, if you think long enough about it. But other topic...
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Davio

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2011, 11:03:30 am »
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Well, it's always better to have the game designer give his insights for some very specific edge cases which you may come across once or twice in your entire life than to have the game designer ask the public for a rule for something that happens a lot!

Yes, there will be no Errata, this is not a collectible card game. Those cards are not created to be banned one day, every Dominion card has been created to see actual play with the least amount of confusion. Also, it's still a printed game, not an online game. We can never go back and change Throne Room to "you may" (I actually like it this way).

Still, I wonder why so many people are actually looking to Donald to sanctify their answers. If he would not post on these forums, I'm sure a lot people could have worked out some satisfactory ruling for themselves or just use whatever Dougz implemented on Iso. You could play the game anyway you want, as long as you have fun with it. Just don't do the blood-on-your-belly thing please, it's gross.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2011, 11:04:01 am »
+1

I don't really know what's the problem here. Quite certainly using a notebook for score tracking is a variant (even if it's not explicitely in the rulebook), but so what. If you want to do it, fine - but it's clearly not according to (maybe unwritten) rules. The same would apply for Skat for example, and I don't know whether there is a chess rule about taking notes of your planned turns and subsequent strategy changes, just to support your own brain a bit in the whole thinking / memoring process, but it would be against the (unwritten) rules too.

I do think that online it is a very sensible variant to automatically track the score because nobody can ensure that your opponent doesn't use a notebook himself at home to have an advantage over you. In real life (and that's the main focus) I see it as a clear deviation from what (in the rules or not) common sense would tell about what's allowed and what is not.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2011, 11:22:18 am »
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I am again pleased, it is rare that words convince people on the internet of anything. Not to insult you by calling you a person on the internet.
You will find I am a person who can be convinced of things by good arguments, on the internet or otherwise. Shouting matches where neither party admits the possibility that their reasoning could be mistaken are not something I consider worth my time and effort on this earth, and I do not make a habit of engaging in them.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2011, 11:25:50 am »
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So what are the official rules of Dominion? Well, exactly the rules according to its creator.
This is exactly, completely wrong. The rules are the rules, and short of publishing official errata designer intent can only clarify actual ambiguities in the rules.

There is no cosmic force preventing Donald from coming out tomorrow and saying "Smithy only gives you 2 Cards now, because oops, that was my original design intent." And yet if he were to say that, it wouldn't change the rules: Smithy would still give you 3 cards.


edit: Also let me add (and Donald can obviously contradict me) that there is no official lose-track rule. The FAQs clarify how Throne Room works with Mining Village, but the versions of the lose-track rule in the BGG thread were never complete or official. I presume if the rule is ever really needed for cases not covered in the FAQs it will have a finalized statement in one of the expansion rulebooks. Somebody recently pointed out that lose-track technically applies to Inn + Watchtower, but this is only because of an incidental overstatement on the Inn card (presuming the Inn itself must be in the discard pile after being gained), and unlike the TR/MV case any result you would like to obtain from Inn/Watchtower can be achieved without appeal to lose-track by simply resolving them in whatever order you like.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 11:35:29 am by guided »
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tlloyd

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2011, 11:29:37 am »
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I am not cool with writing the score on your belly in your own blood, as I gave as an example previously; I am fine with saying the score out loud or using Ars Memorativa or what have you. When you write on yourself, you're using yourself as a notebook; it's a weird thing that only comes up to try to get around the rules. If you say the score out loud to help you remember, that's normal.

This distinction could be any or all of the following:
1. Reasonable
2. Explicitly addressed in the rules.
3. Implied by the rules.
4. So obvious there is no need to address it in the rules.

I think the distinction is certainly reasonable (and in fact I don't use the point tracker on Isotropic or take notes IRL--primarily for the reasons Davio mentions), but I don't see much basis for any of the other three claims about it. I don't claim that score-tracking is legal because I want a memory crutch (again, I don't use the score-tracker), I claim that it is not apparent from the rules that memory differentials are core to the game while vision differentials are not, and therefore any insistence that someone not use memory aids cannot be supported by an appeal to the rules.

Certainly Donald's opinion about how the game should be played is going to have some weight, but in this case I think he's crossed from interpreting the rules to providing a new rule--something he intended never to do. I'll leave it at this: while others may feel differently, I would not feel justified in calling someone who keeps score by some physical means a cheater (although I might have lots of other names for him if he slows down the game!).
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ChaosRed

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2011, 11:46:04 am »
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Well Donald said taking notes in a Dominion game (even on Iso) is cheating, unless both players agree. He's made that pretty clear. So I'll stop. It makes me sad, because notes were invaluable to me in helping understand and appreciate the game, in particular judging a deck's momentum and poise.

I'll still take notes during live games with my wife, but on iso, I'll stop. In general, games on iso aren't as fun anyway, so perhaps I just need to embrace that I prefer a more casual/analytical game than a competitive one. I like to win, but I much prefer the social aspect and meta-game. Which is cool, I can get that at home.

It's great Donald came in and cleared this up, and the argument resolved in the way it should: with the realization that Donald's argument was both correct and fair. Kudos to the designer for not only clarifying the issue, but presenting the argument with grace.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2011, 11:49:26 am »
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So what are the official rules of Dominion? Well, exactly the rules according to its creator.
This is exactly, completely wrong. The rules are the rules, and short of publishing official errata designer intent can only clarify actual ambiguities in the rules.

There is no cosmic force preventing Donald from coming out tomorrow and saying "Smithy only gives you 2 Cards now, because oops, that was my original design intent." And yet if he were to say that, it wouldn't change the rules: Smithy would still give you 3 cards.

Whether it would or it wouldn't, whether we would now have a published version and a new official version or just the original published version is kind of beside the point. To be clear, I was talking about additional rules not specified in the rulebooks, which is the issue, as opposed to rules that contradict the rulebooks. If Donald comes out with two rules that contradict each other, the game is broken. Assuming that he is a good enough game designer to avoid this, his rules are "the" rules. I was not meaning to say that Donald can change the published rules, only that they are a subset of the full set of official rules (which include, for example, the lose track rule).
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2011, 11:59:28 am »
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Also let me add (and Donald can obviously contradict me) that there is no official lose-track rule.

If that is the case, then I will concede that point to you. As Donald points out, it doesn't really matter as there's currently only one situation where it's important and we have the FAQs for that. On the other hand I'm still not entirely sure if the FAQs are meant to be official rules or simply interpretation of the rules. Regardless. There's no FAQ on score-keeping and apparently it's an issue but thank goodness we have Donald to clear it up for us.
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guided

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2011, 12:25:10 pm »
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If that is the case, then I will concede that point to you. As Donald points out, it doesn't really matter as there's currently only one situation where it's important and we have the FAQs for that. On the other hand I'm still not entirely sure if the FAQs are meant to be official rules or simply interpretation of the rules. Regardless. There's no FAQ on score-keeping and apparently it's an issue but thank goodness we have Donald to clear it up for us.
If you read the BGG thread he hedges and says basically "don't hold me to this exactly," and even over the course of extensive discussion there's no "official" rule established, just a general idea that there's this concept of losing track of cards that might matter in some weird edge cases.

In contrast I view the rule about cleaning up TR and KC cards from chains involving duration cards as official (because the rulebook is ambiguous and the ruling is unequivocal), and the rule about what happens when you Trader the card you tried to get from Ironworks is equally official too.
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Kirian

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2011, 02:05:31 pm »
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It seems to me that it's not a game of bodies and physicality (i.e. all of me vs all of you as you seem to be saying), it's a game of wits and mind. Your body is merely required to carry out the game decisions your mind thinks up.
This strikes me as a rather arbitrary distinction... even if you think the mind somehow transcends the physicality of the brain and body.

Ignoring physiological distinctions between mind and body, there is still a relevant philosophical argument to be made about mind-body duality within the scope of gaming.  As soon as an AI that can play the game is introduced--and an extremely basic BMU AI is easy enough to program--then we have to make certain that a distinction is drawn between player (active) and player (physical).

In Dominion, no physical presence is required, as we have seen.  It's possible to play with a virtual set using virtual decks on a virtual system.  Therefore, if we posit a virtual player (AI), anything that virtual player cannot do is something a physical player should not do.  Making up mnemonics?  Sure, OK.  Writing scores down?  While an AI could write virtual numbers on virtual paper, that's really an allocation of memory, not something separate from the AI... thus, for a human, mind-based.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2011, 02:29:20 pm »
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In Dominion, no physical presence is required, as we have seen.  It's possible to play with a virtual set using virtual decks on a virtual system.  Therefore, if we posit a virtual player (AI), anything that virtual player cannot do is something a physical player should not do.  Making up mnemonics?  Sure, OK.  Writing scores down?  While an AI could write virtual numbers on virtual paper, that's really an allocation of memory, not something separate from the AI... thus, for a human, mind-based.

Okay the thread has gone to a weird place, but just to indulge this, humans have been aiding their short term memory with notes and writing and symbols for centuries. If an AI must access data on a disk, (like the XML it loads to perform its algorithm), then the human equivalent is accessing notes written down or obtained in the game. Also most AIs DO record the circumstances of the game, and this is eventually actually WRITTEN somewhere for the machine to use, so in some obscure way, the AI is cheating. It's fully aware of the gaming circumstances, and it does so by recording things beyond RAM, but actually writing this to disk (or at a minimum caching the circumstances of the session, so that it can resume at the exact point, should the session get lost).

And really, since we're on the topic, is running simulators cheating? It's not written in the rules you can't test tactics in a simulator, but truly developing software to test tactics to 10,000 games or more, seems at some level, exploiting something to achieve tactical advantage.

I shouldn't have gone there, apologies.

It's clear that using a notepad to keep track of score, curses and purchases is considered not only "bad form" but cheating, even in isotropic. That's been made clear and I totally respect that and I vow to no longer do that kind of tracking online.
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barsooma

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2011, 02:31:17 pm »
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It's clear that using a notepad to keep track of score, curses and purchases is considered not only "bad form" but cheating, even in isotropic. That's been made clear and I totally respect that and I vow to no longer do that kind of tracking online.

It is not totally clear - I reject all arguments put forward so far and I have no respect for this position. I vow to continue doing whatever tracking I please.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2011, 02:42:05 pm »
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It is not totally clear - I reject all arguments put forward so far and I have no respect for this position. I vow to continue doing whatever tracking I please.

The designer of the game, and creator of the rules has declared it cheating. That ends the argument.

You may not agree with the decision, but there's no room for argument anymore. Similar to if a referee declares a penalty kick, you may not agree with the call, but it won't stop the ball from going to the mark and the penalty shot from being taken.

Games need refs to set rules and guidelines. Donald did that for us, there's no room for argument. It's been declared cheating, by the one person who can make that declaration authoritatively.
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theory

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Re: Keeping Score
« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2011, 02:47:35 pm »
+4

This seems like a good a time as any to lock the thread.  This exact debate has been done to death both here and on BGG and never gets anyone anywhere.
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