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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 235870 times)

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Robz888

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2013, 01:00:55 pm »
+1

I've yet to play a board with KC that hasn't been an insane engine or megaturn game.

Oh, it definitely happens. Not every board has good actions that you would like to King. A lot of them do, but you can get mostly Treasure sets, or sets where like all the actions are villages but there is no draw, or just a lot of trashers where there isn't so much use to Kinging them, or heavy slogs without trashing. It definitely happens.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2013, 01:03:23 pm »
+2

I've yet to play a board with KC that hasn't been an insane engine or megaturn game.

That's because whenever people see KC, both players tend to bend over backwards to make a KC deck. And that's not such a bad strategy because KC is incredibly strong, but sometimes it isn't worth it.
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gman314

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2013, 01:04:25 pm »
+1

I've won a fair number of KC games with Province by ignoring KC. I find that in Province games I need a good reason to go for KC, while in Colony games I need a good reason to avoid it.
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-Stef-

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2013, 01:08:36 pm »
+5

I'm not sure I can even squeeze KC into the top 10.

I agree here. No way KC is in the top 5. I don't buy KC every game I see it, it's as simple as that. Neither do I buy chapel all the time, and I just love playing around Sea Hag.

However, games with Fishing Village, Masquerade or Tournament in the kingdom but not in my deck are had to imagine. And Upgrade, but that's a bit of a personal favorite.

I'm ok with rebuild very high. And stonemason? Still too new to rank it properly, but it sure is strong.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2013, 01:12:33 pm »
0

Did I get the right ones?

Cellar is bad because Warehouse.
Cellar is cheaper than Warehouse, and warehouse is pretty good. Expand is more expensive than all these cards, and most of them are pretty bad, apart from its effect largely being worse.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2013, 01:14:56 pm »
0

I think KC is probably borderline top 10 for me. Ambassador and Masq have to be top 10, as does Goons, the $5 junk attacks (Mountebank, Witch, Cultist), and Wharf. That leaves 3 spots for KC, Tournament, Fishing Village, Governor and Rebuild. Right now, I'm leaning towards Governor, Tournament, KC.
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jonts26

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2013, 01:33:09 pm »
0

I think KC is probably borderline top 10 for me. Ambassador and Masq have to be top 10, as does Goons, the $5 junk attacks (Mountebank, Witch, Cultist), and Wharf. That leaves 3 spots for KC, Tournament, Fishing Village, Governor and Rebuild. Right now, I'm leaning towards Governor, Tournament, KC.

No chapel in your top 10?

Anyway, I'm finding that making a top 10 for myself is really really hard. I feel like I need to put 15 cards in there.
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Young Nick

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2013, 01:37:59 pm »
0

I think KC is probably borderline top 10 for me. Ambassador and Masq have to be top 10, as does Goons, the $5 junk attacks (Mountebank, Witch, Cultist), and Wharf. That leaves 3 spots for KC, Tournament, Fishing Village, Governor and Rebuild. Right now, I'm leaning towards Governor, Tournament, KC.

No chapel in your top 10?

Anyway, I'm finding that making a top 10 for myself is really really hard. I feel like I need to put 15 cards in there.

That's why WW's tier system is so much better. No need to try to say there is a top tier consisting of only ten cards. I bet his final group will have 13 +/- 2 cards.
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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2013, 01:38:08 pm »
0

It's tough to call what #1 will be here. I'm guessing either Rebuild or Ambassador will be #1. It takes a disproportionate amount of effort to beat the Rebuild rush, and Ambassador is good for so many decks, though it takes a hit when shelters are in the game.

Goons needs extra actions to really be worth it, although it's still a very strong card when played every turn. KC needs other actions, but can usually do something neat. Can't say for sure if Mountebank and Witch will make the top 10.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2013, 01:40:12 pm »
0

There exist a not insignificant fraction of boards where you can draw your whole deck and play 3-4 pirate ships a turn after around 12 turns but the +coin is not strong enough to compete with bm otherwise (ie +coin is something like bazaar or treasury). I would guess that pirate ship can crush any money based strategy on those boards even without +buy because it can force a pin well before the 50% VP point. I should clarify that I think pirate ship is virtually never an early buy, instead it has value when bought reactively once the engine has been completed if your opponent has been going for bm.

If your opponent is building a money deck on a board that can draw the full deck with 3-4 surplus actions, he's probably a colossal dumbass.
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Robz888

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2013, 01:42:32 pm »
0

My list (not my prediction, although I doubt it will be far off)

1. Rebuild
2. Masquerade
3. Chapel
4. King's Court
5. Witch
6. Goons
7. Ambassador
8. Mountebank
9. Wharf
10. Young Witch

(Next: Fishing Village, Remake, Cultist, Governor... and then I can't decide.)
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Warfreak2

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2013, 01:55:21 pm »
+1

My only real disagreement so far is that Advisor is either slightly or way too high. The card is terrible.
Advisor can be really good; you need a lot of them. If your deck is homogeous enough (e.g. Advisor/Masterpiece) then it draws two OK cards and discards an OK card. Otherwise, if you are drawing your deck anyway, it doesn't matter what they discard.

Another thing is situations when you want to draw bad cards to trash them; Count and Forge let you trash a lot of cards at once, and a bunch of Advisors let you draw almost everything you want to trash, instantly powering up your Advisors. Even in the opening, you can play the "do I have my Chapel this hand?" game.

Then of course there are situations where you literally don't care what else in your hand; Secret Chamber/Storeroom/Vault, Cellar discarding exactly as many cards remain in your deck (Cellar/Counting House-style). Double-Tactician/Vault generates $9 per turn without assistance, tack on two Advisors and you can get a Colony; Secret Chamber/Storeroom works for Provinces with just one Advisor.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 02:01:57 pm by Warfreak2 »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2013, 02:02:48 pm »
0

I think KC is probably borderline top 10 for me. Ambassador and Masq have to be top 10, as does Goons, the $5 junk attacks (Mountebank, Witch, Cultist), and Wharf. That leaves 3 spots for KC, Tournament, Fishing Village, Governor and Rebuild. Right now, I'm leaning towards Governor, Tournament, KC.

No chapel in your top 10?

Anyway, I'm finding that making a top 10 for myself is really really hard. I feel like I need to put 15 cards in there.

Currently, no. But it's top 15, probably with Remake and Swindler. And if you ask me tomorrow, it could be top 10 :). I did not put a great deal of work into this list...
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brokoli

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2013, 02:27:51 pm »
0

I wouldn't put ambassador in the top 10, not even in the top 20. KC and Chapel not in the top 10 either. Swindler not in the top 50.
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Just a Rube

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2013, 02:39:08 pm »
0

I wouldn't put ambassador in the top 10, not even in the top 20. KC and Chapel not in the top 10 either. Swindler not in the top 50.
You don't think swindler makes the top 25% of cards? I mean, not in the top 10? sure, not in the top 20? reasonable, but you really think there are 50 cards more powerful than a $3 junker that also directly hurts the opponents economy?
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jonts26

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2013, 02:46:38 pm »
+1

Ok, my -Stef- tier of cards is as follows (in no particular order and ignoring guilds due to lack of experience):

Rebuild
Cultist
Chapel
Witch
Masq
Tourney
Ambassador
Fishing Village
Wharf
Mountebank
Goons
KC
Governor
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ragingduckd

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2013, 03:26:37 pm »
+6

... and I just love playing around Sea Hag.

So did the neighbor kids... until the day they disappeared.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2013, 03:29:48 pm »
0

... and I just love playing around Sea Hag.

So did the neighbor kids... until the day they disappeared.

Thief 3?  Please tell me Thief 3
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2013, 03:57:19 pm »
+1

Rebuild the absolute strongest card in the game?

Man, I'm worse with it than I thought.
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Witherweaver

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #94 on: July 01, 2013, 06:11:58 pm »
0

I'm not sure I can even squeeze KC into the top 10.

I agree here. No way KC is in the top 5. I don't buy KC every game I see it, it's as simple as that. Neither do I buy chapel all the time, and I just love playing around Sea Hag.

I'm curious about the playing around Sea Hag part.  Can you expand on that?
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #95 on: July 01, 2013, 07:05:28 pm »
+1

I think KC is probably borderline top 10 for me. Ambassador and Masq have to be top 10, as does Goons, the $5 junk attacks (Mountebank, Witch, Cultist), and Wharf. That leaves 3 spots for KC, Tournament, Fishing Village, Governor and Rebuild. Right now, I'm leaning towards Governor, Tournament, KC.

No chapel in your top 10?

Anyway, I'm finding that making a top 10 for myself is really really hard. I feel like I need to put 15 cards in there.

That's why WW's tier system is so much better. No need to try to say there is a top tier consisting of only ten cards. I bet his final group will have 13 +/- 2 cards.
Heh, I haven't put a tier system here, I am just putting out 10ish cards at a time. Probably that I give each little section a title is confusing - I put it in there just as a 2 second thought for a little fun, but yeah probably I shouldn't. The only actual real big tier I see here so far is that Scout and Adventurer are clearly a bottom tier to their own. There aren't really clearly delineated tiers, though, it's mostly marginal differences all around. Probably the next reasonably large ump for me will come between 172 and 173. Then 148/149, 134/135, 118/119, 93/94, 67/68, 56/57, 29/30, and 21/22. Everything in the top 21 is pretty zany strong, but I actually guess 10/11 is a pretty significant split, as is 6/7.

Blueswan

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2013, 04:52:34 am »
0

I'm more and more inclined to regard Rebuild as the strongest card in the game, since even with zero support it closes the game very very fast and it doesn't really care too much about having junk in your deck. The only real drawback for it seems to be shelters. On an Estate board, unless a very strong engine is possible that can close out the game in 12 turns or so, you probably should always go Rebuild. I think it is undercosted. At $6 it would have been much weaker, but still good. I don't like strategies as simple as the Rebuild strategy to be that strong.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 04:55:38 am by Blueswan »
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-Stef-

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2013, 04:56:26 am »
+1

I'm not sure I can even squeeze KC into the top 10.

I agree here. No way KC is in the top 5. I don't buy KC every game I see it, it's as simple as that. Neither do I buy chapel all the time, and I just love playing around Sea Hag.

I'm curious about the playing around Sea Hag part.  Can you expand on that?

Sea Hag hurts the opponent, but doesn't provide any resources for me either. I consider playing around it when...

* Trashing cost $5, like Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Trading Post
* Power $5 cards provide better cursing, like Mountebank, Witch
* Trashing is really good, like Remake, Masquerade, Chapel, sometimes Forge
* This great game against Marin. I lost it by opening Sea Hag.
* A rush/slog with Ironworks & Silk Road/Gardens

This list is in no particular order and by no means complete. Just trying to illustrate Sea Hag is not an auto-buy.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2013, 07:23:34 am »
0

My only real disagreement so far is that Advisor is either slightly or way too high. The card is terrible.
Advisor can be really good; you need a lot of them.

I challenge you (or anyone reading this) to post one log where Advisor was "really good" :)

Quote
If your deck is homogeous enough (e.g. Advisor/Masterpiece) then it draws two OK cards and discards an OK card.

The only situation I can think of where my deck is more or less homogenously filled with OK cards is either Trader/Feodum or Masterpiece/Feodum (and things like Hamlet/Watchtower engines, but then you certainly don't need Advisor). However, in those games I do not want to waste a $4 buy on anything besides Trader, Feodum or Silver.

Quote
Otherwise, if you are drawing your deck anyway, it doesn't matter what they discard.

You can't draw your deck with Advisor, so if you are drawing your deck anyway you most likely have other means to draw, in which case your example mistakes the power of those other draw cards for that of Advisor. An exception might be if you have lots of spammable cantrips (Hamlets, Peddlers) or some sifters (Cellar, Warehouse), in which case having a bunch of Advisors isn't as bad as it usually is. Those situations, and the ones you list at the end, are why I'd rank it #197 instead of #204.

Quote
Another thing is situations when you want to draw bad cards to trash them; Count and Forge let you trash a lot of cards at once, and a bunch of Advisors let you draw almost everything you want to trash, instantly powering up your Advisors.

You first have to get a bunch of Advisors over other cards, and getting a bunch of bad cards in order to slightly facilitate the trashing of other bad cards sounds like a crappy idea. Besides, if you play multiple Advisors in a row, you are more likely to have your Forge/Count discarded than you are to have it in your starting hand, so you are left with all your junk and no means to trash it.

Quote
Even in the opening, you can play the "do I have my Chapel this hand?" game.

Whether you trash 3 or 4 cards early on is insignificant compared to your opponent potentially discarding your Chapel, which can be game-deciding.

Quote
Then of course there are situations where you literally don't care what else in your hand; Secret Chamber/Storeroom/Vault, Cellar discarding exactly as many cards remain in your deck (Cellar/Counting House-style). Double-Tactician/Vault generates $9 per turn without assistance, tack on two Advisors and you can get a Colony; Secret Chamber/Storeroom works for Provinces with just one Advisor.

Yes, but even here note that it only offers slight support, and is not a key card. Compare this to Secret Chamber, which can be an absolute monster in sufficiently trimmed Scrying Pool-engines, yet it's still ranked #196. My point is not that the card doesn't have its uses, but that it's often terrible, rarely good and never great.
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Warfreak2

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2013, 07:42:40 am »
+1

Here's a game in which I rejected the engine because I thought, no good trashing, no village, no good draw. Apparently, Doctor is good trashing, Herald is a good village, and Advisor is good draw. My opponent was able to draw his deck and play all of his Candlestick Makers six turns in a row, three of which were Outpost turns! I was extremely lucky to double-Province and end the game with a win, otherwise I was toast for sure.

Here's Qvist vs. Adam Horton in which Adam uses Advisors to draw his deck in a double-Tactician engine, against Qvist's Cartographer/Tunnel. Adam made a spectacular fail at the end, otherwise he had the game in the bag.

The only situation I can think of where my deck is more or less homogenously filled with OK cards is either Trader/Feodum or Masterpiece/Feodum
...Chapel? If there are no bad cards in your deck, everything is at least OK.

You can't draw your deck with Advisor
Obviously you can; everything except one card, anyway. Two other "+1 Card"s in your deck are sufficient to draw the whole thing, or one if you don't mind it being the one card you don't draw.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 07:44:25 am by Warfreak2 »
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