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Author Topic: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur  (Read 3615 times)

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BMan

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Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« on: July 04, 2013, 06:56:03 pm »
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Saboteur is quite possibly the most annoying attack card in the game. Not only does it target only the cards you actually want in your deck, it keeps looking until it finds one, and destroys it. Most aggravating if that was a card you needed, even if you could turn it into a cheaper one that was at least somewhat useful.

Enter sab's kryptonite: The fortress. If you have fortresses in your deck, you WANT your opponent's sabs to hit one of them, because this is what will happen:

1. The attack is negated, without the need for a moat or lighthouse.
2. You have the option of gaining a $2 card (because you technically DID trash the fortress).
3. You add a card to your hand during another player's turn.
4. Which just so happens to be a village.

(Note, BTW, that countering a knight with a fortress--that just sounds so cool, BTW--gives the attacked person all of these benefits except for #2.)

If fortress did #1 alone--blocking the attack--it would be worth the investment. But by giving you all these "little" benefits that can really add up, fortress turns saboteur into an outright liability. Sabs are rather weak as-is, but with fortresses on the board, they can become as bad as scouts. Maybe worse. In short, if both cards are in the supply, don't even think about picking up a saboteur unless there is a very specific reason for doing so.
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Tables

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2013, 07:38:44 pm »
+1

Well... I disagree on a few points here. Saboteur is weak and ignorable enough that it doesn't usually need a counter, but that's besides the point, I guess. Just negating the attack would definitely NOT be worth the investment, unless you had very few cards costing $3 or more in deck. You'd be spending $4 on a card that has maybe a 1/6 chance or so of negating an opponent's $5 card play. That's really not worth it. Adding everything else in, and it can help, but only if you actually need the Villages. Otherwise, it means your 'counter' is that the occasional Saboteur play from the opponent becomes a lab for you, and a cheap card gain. That's a pretty nice swing, but I don't think grabbing Fortresses to try and make it happen is a good plan unless your opponent goes REALLY heavy in Saboteurs.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

serakfalcon

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2013, 09:26:13 pm »
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if i was going to get a village for an engine i might pick up fortress just so that everyone else has less of a reason to buy saboteur, but not specifically to counter.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2013, 03:02:50 am »
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Fortress counters all trashing attacks (except for the treasure trashers), so it's also a counter to Knights, Rogue, and especially Swindler, which is a way greater deal than countering Saboteurs.
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Awaclus

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2013, 04:30:10 am »
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I had my opponent buy 7 or 8 Saboteurs against me one game. Fortress would've been nice in that game, but Feodum was a nice replacement since Fortress wasn't available.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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dondon151

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2013, 04:37:17 am »
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Fortress counters all trashing attacks (except for the treasure trashers), so it's also a counter to Knights, Rogue, and especially Swindler, which is a way greater deal than countering Saboteurs.

Fortress is even more vicious against Knights because if you turn up 2 cards in the $3-$6 range, you get to choose which one (Fortress) to trash.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 04:41:46 am »
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Fortress counters all trashing attacks (except for the treasure trashers), so it's also a counter to Knights, Rogue, and especially Swindler, which is a way greater deal than countering Saboteurs.

Fortress is even more vicious against Knights because if you turn up 2 cards in the $3-$6 range, you get to choose which one (Fortress) to trash.

Yeah, but with Swindler you get the Fortress in Hand (= 6 card hand) AND you receive another 4 cost card. Now, there might be occasions where there are quite bad 4s, especially terminals, but even terminals should be no big issue with villages around (Fortress...).
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dondon151

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 04:42:33 am »
+4

Didn't you know? All kingdoms with Fortress and Swindler also come with Scout.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2013, 09:27:02 am »
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Uh, that would be like playing 8 Highways and a Swindler, trashing a province into a Curse.
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heatthespurs

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Re: Counter: Fortress vs. Saboteur
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 08:11:55 am »
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Didn't you know? All kingdoms with Fortress and Swindler also come with Scout.

But your opponent pick which card you gain, so chance is they wont gift you a scout
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