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[Davio]

I was highly disappointed because I liked the introduction, but didn't care for soldier Dan.

This season has been absolutely horrible so far.
Not one of the four episodes managed to grab me by the throat like the old ones could.

The standard of the new season just pales in comparison to episodes like "Don't Blink", "Turn Left", "Pandorica Opens" and the one in the Library with the things in the shadows where River dies.

[Teproc]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

[Davio]

Well, it's not that I don't like any episode from the later series.
I loved the "Rings of Akhaten" and the Trenzalore arc from the last one.

It's just that it seems they wanted to make a clean break from all previous seasons, but I don't like the direction they're moving in.

[Polk5440]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

[Teproc]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

I missed "Pandorica Opens" in that post (probably because I don't like it all that much). And yeah, Doctor Who has been coasting for a long, long time. Hopefully this last episode is a sign that Moffat has finally found back the magic from his standalone episodes in the RTD era.

[Kirian]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

Technically yes, but DW seasons are shorter than US TV seasons.  By a factor of two or so.  Seven seasons of New DW, counting all the specials, is the same screen time as the first four seasons of TNG.

[Teproc]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

Technically yes, but DW seasons are shorter than US TV seasons.  By a factor of two or so.  Seven seasons of New DW, counting all the specials, is the same screen time as the first four seasons of TNG.

What's your point ?

Also I'd assume people posting in a Doctor Who thread know about the length of British seasons (or series if we really want to be technical).

[jsh357]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

Technically yes, but DW seasons are shorter than US TV seasons.  By a factor of two or so.  Seven seasons of New DW, counting all the specials, is the same screen time as the first four seasons of TNG.

What's your point ?

Also I'd assume people posting in a Doctor Who thread know about the length of British seasons (or series if we really want to be technical).

His point was to counter the claim that "5 seasons is a lot of TV," at least by US television standards. 

[EFHW]

It's also the episode that finally makes 12 distinctive in non-superficial ways.

I agree.

The tensions between Dan and Clara were more realistic than their previous interaction, too. 

[Kirian]

Finally got a chance to view Listen.  Possibly the best one-off episode since Blink, not counting the ultra-special Day of the Doctor.

Also, what's up with you crazy people who didn't like River Song?  I personally think the reason Series 7 seemed so... off?  just plain bad by comparison?  is that The Wedding of River Song was the real end of the 11th Doctor's arc.  Series 7 was just a huge extended prologue to the anniversary episodes.

[Dsell]

Riversong is my absolute favorite Dr. Who character ever. By quite a bit, actually. I really wish she were a fixture, but I understand why they didn't make her that way.

[Teproc]

I liked River Song at first, but the character never went anywhere. It was just the same note, over and over again. Which was fun for a time, but just became grating.

[Davio]

The main thing I liked about her was that she was the only one able to match the doctor.

[ashersky]

I liked River Song at first, but the character never went anywhere. It was just the same note, over and over again. Which was fun for a time, but just became grating.

That's the doctor's sister that has visions and stuff, right?  And Captain Reynolds doesn't want her on board but is overruled?

[Tables]

So Time Heist, best Doctor Who episode in quite a while. Up until now, this series had seemed fairly mediocre to me. Episode 1 was pretty entertaining but dragged on a little. Episode 2 was good, although it was also fairly predictable for the most part. Episode 3 felt like a generic filler episode. Episode 4 was one of those potentially great ones marred by awful writing (CLARA LET GO OF THE IDIOT BALL!). But episode 5 has really excited me for this series's potential.

[Davio]

Finally an episode I liked, hurray!

Although I didn't get the end with the fuzzy time logic.

Can anyone explain how it's possible that:
1. The Doctor gets a call
2. The Doctor tells someone to call him
3. Go back to one

How would such a loop be possible?

I know trying to use regular physics to understand Dr Who is neigh impossible, but I'd like for the episodes to make at least some sense.

[Teproc]

Can you think of a time travel story that makes sense Davio ? Because I can't.

This episode was ok, I don't know. I was disappointed by the direction, it asn't as slick as I expected a "heist" episode to be.

[Kirian]

That sort of closed information loop is a staple of time travel fiction.  In this case, though, it's technically an open loop due to amnesia; at the time The Doctor gives her the phone number, he doesn't remember the original call.. Karabraxos remembers the original heist, however; she can therefore be all but assured of the heist's success.  At the same time, The Doctor has figured out that he's the guy who made this all happen, so he guesses that an information loop is needed, and gives away his number.

Other closed information loops include Chuck Berry's "sound" in Back to the Future, Zefram Cochran's quote in First Contact, at least one instance in a Stainless Steel Rat book,  --All You Zombies--,

Hell, look up Stable TimenLoop on Tvtropes.  Try not to get sucked in for hours though.

[Galzria]

You don't even need to look back that far. One of the best examples in recent history is 'Blink'.

1) Doctor receives a script of questions and answers
2) Doctor gets trapped back in time
3) Doctor creates 'Easter Eggs' with his portion of the script
4) Sparrow asks the questions on the script, based off the answers the Doctor has recorded.
5) Sparrow provides Doctor with Script

If the Doctor doesn't have the script before he gets trapped, he can't get back - yet the script can't be made unless it already existed TO be made.

Timey-Wimey, Wibbly-Wobbly of course. And that's all you have here as well. A -> B -> C -> A.

That said, this was my least liked episode of the new run. From a story standpoint, and a writing/acting standpoint, it was fine. But the direction killed me. The scenes were choppy, the overuse of a single corridor under different lighting (albeit a DW staple as well) felt like a missed opportunity, and I never felt any real suspense building during the heist itself.

The first few minutes of the episode detailed this bank, the safest in the known universe, unbreakable, highest possible security, etc. etc. - But when it came to breaking in, they didn't need to bypass the atomically locked seals, or deal with regulated air supply. They needed to climb down some back shaft ladders, unscrew a few vents, and crawl down to the vault. There was no REAL sense of the place being all that secure.

I dunno. I guess I was hoping for a direction style and story layout more like Ocean's 11/12/13.  It's still a far cry better than almost anything in the Smith era though, so I can't really complain (no hate towards Smith, but I'm so glad to have moved Doctor Who back away from being a storybook fantasy - and you know how Capaldi's Doctor felt about Robin Hood's laughter? That's how I felt about Smith's Doctor almost every episode...)

[Teproc]

What Galzria said.

I didn't hate the Matt Smith era though. It was fun, especially the first season.

[EFHW]

I really liked that they tied in the unanswered question of how Clara got the Doctor's number back at the start of season 7. 

[EFHW]

The first few minutes of the episode detailed this bank, the safest in the known universe, unbreakable, highest possible security, etc. etc. - But when it came to breaking in, they didn't need to bypass the atomically locked seals, or deal with regulated air supply. They needed to climb down some back shaft ladders, unscrew a few vents, and crawl down to the vault. There was no REAL sense of the place being all that secure.

I noticed that too.  Kind of a bummer.

I dunno. I guess I was hoping for a direction style and story layout more like Ocean's 11/12/13.  It's still a far cry better than almost anything in the Smith era though, so I can't really complain (no hate towards Smith, but I'm so glad to have moved Doctor Who back away from being a storybook fantasy - and you know how Capaldi's Doctor felt about Robin Hood's laughter? That's how I felt about Smith's Doctor almost every episode...)

I loved Matt Smith's Doctor!  He isn't as debonair as David Tennant, who is so far my favorite.  But he was funny and affectionate and kind, but with some really dark moments too.  I also liked when he got exasperated - "it's a time machine, any time is good for me".

[Galzria]

I dunno. I guess I was hoping for a direction style and story layout more like Ocean's 11/12/13.  It's still a far cry better than almost anything in the Smith era though, so I can't really complain (no hate towards Smith, but I'm so glad to have moved Doctor Who back away from being a storybook fantasy - and you know how Capaldi's Doctor felt about Robin Hood's laughter? That's how I felt about Smith's Doctor almost every episode...)

I loved Matt Smith's Doctor!  He isn't as debonair as David Tennant, who is so far my favorite.  But he was funny and affectionate and kind, but with some really dark moments too.  I also liked when he got exasperated - "it's a time machine, any time is good for me".

I didn't hate him by any means. It was really the story's that were written for him more than anything. I guess, I just never felt like I could take him seriously - he always felt like a fairy tale. In a way, that was largely intentional. It's how Amy saw him. But even his "darker" moments came across as... almost not genuine. He had a "Hmph! I'm going to pout in my corner now because I'm mad at you!" type attitude, and yet so often he would flip that 20 seconds later to laughing and brandishing the Sonic. He was whimsical, and he had charm, and he certainly knew how to have fun - I dunno. Maybe I'm getting old. But Smith lacked gravitas (Capaldi is almost an extreme opposite in this...) - best way for me to describe my feelings are that I just struggled to take him seriously.

[Kirian]

I just never felt like I could take him seriously - he always felt like a fairy tale. In a way, that was largely intentional.

Doctor Who is a fairy tale.  It's the story of a nearly-immortal, nearly-omnipotent person with the power to cross all of space and time.  He is essentially limited only by the plot--something that was an obstacle last week isn't even a bump in the road next week--and his own moral code.  He takes mortals whizzing through all of space and time, showing them things they could not even have dreamed of.  He can fascinate nearly anyone, sometimes even those who begin antagonistic to him.  He is always helpful, "never cruel or cowardly," and bends time to his will in order to fix his own mistakes.  He has literally destroyed and created universes!

He is a demigod who fits the mold of Peter Pan better than that of Q.  Of course it's a fairy tale!  And if that isn't enough to convince you, listen to River Song, at the end of Flesh and Stone:

River Song: You'll see me again, quite soon, when the Pandorica opens.
The Doctor: The Pandorica! [laughs] [sotto voce] That's a fairy tale!
River Song: [laughs] Doctor! Aren't we all?

[Galzria]

Ah, I agree, certainly Matt's entire storyline was. That's my point.

Yes, it's all make-believe, but Smith's Doctor was consistently written (or so I felt) to be more "magical". He was Amy's Raggedy Doctor. Her imaginary friend.

Yes, Matt's era WAS a fairy tale. River is absolutely right about that. Which is why I don't hate Smith for the way he portrayed the Doctor. His entire time was written to bank on that image.

You wouldn't say that Ecclestone's travels or arc were anything like a fairy tale. Sure, they're just as made up, but there was a seriousness to them, a feeling of being grounded.

Tennant DID have some fairy tale stories, but his arcs still came across as more Sci-Fi than fantasy overall. With the exception of perhaps The Master shooting fireballs... ugh.

All that isn't to say that the two can't coexist. Sci-Fi/Fantasy most often require one another. Smith's tenure just went too far to one extreme for my taste, and comments like River's, or descriptions presented by Amy, show that it was quite an intentional shift by the writers.

Yes, Dinosaurs in London is closer to Fairy Tale than Sci-Fi. And Robin Hood? You're absolutely right. But the 'feeling' of the stories has shifted. The overall tone feels more serious, and more mature. The Doctor "feels" more real now than before. He reacts in ways that make sense - for a human, a timelord, or any other being. His internal struggles with self-identification feel justified. He's not as personable as Smith was, no. But he comes across as much more real.