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Author Topic: Crone  (Read 2720 times)

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ta56636

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Crone
« on: June 19, 2013, 06:18:12 pm »
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Card idea:

Crone, $0, Action

+1 Buy
+$1
-1 VP
--------
When you gain this +1 Buy, +$1
You may only buy one Crone per turn
--------
When attempting to trash this card you must discard a treasure in order to successfully trash


Basically this allows you to buy something $1 than you can currently afford, but at the cost of a bad card in your deck and being more difficult to trash.  If you just gain it'd also give you an extra buy. You could get multiple if you can gain and buy it.  Good synergy with Bridge/Garden type cards.

First card idea so be gentle!
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Warfreak2

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Re: Crone
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 06:54:32 pm »
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I think there have been a few suggestions similar to this, which give you an extra coin to spend in this buy phase in exchange for a junk card or some other negative effect. Let's have a look at yours:

"-1 VP": is this like Curse, which is worth -1VP at the end of the game, or does it cost you a victory point when you play it? If the former, it should be separated. If the latter, what happens when you don't have any VP tokens? In most games, you can't get them from anywhere, and there's no such thing as a negative VP token.

"When you gain this..." duplicates the action part, which is redundant - it could be "when you gain this during your buy phase, play it", for example.

"When attempting to trash this card..." is strange wording, it doesn't refer to any part of the Dominion rules. You could either react to "when you trash this" or "when you would trash this", depending on whether you want, e.g., Mercenary to activate when you try to trash it or not. Also the treasure card should be from your hand, and it's not clear if you mean it's mandatory to discard a treasure or not; if it's mandatory, there needs to be an accountability clause. So,

"When you [would] trash this, you may discard a treasure card from your hand. If you don't, [instead] put this in your discard pile", or
"When you [would] trash this, discard a treasure card from your hand (or reveal a hand with no treasures). If you don't, [instead] put this in your discard pile".

It's quite possible the main effect could be expressed more simply using Guilds' overpay mechanic.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 06:57:38 pm by Warfreak2 »
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Asper

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Re: Crone
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 07:15:53 pm »
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Reminds me of my Swamp.


Swamp, 0$, Action
+ 2 Actions
Discard a card.
When you play or buy this, if it is the first time you do that with a Swamp this turn: + 2 Buys

While this is in the supply, when you would gain a card, you may gain this instead.


Generally speaking, i think your card is too weak - the -1VP is a very hard penalty for the +1$. I wouldn't want to buy several, anyhow. Maybe to go from Province to Colony, making a total of 7VPs instead of 6, but only in the endgame or as a part of very specific strategies.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Crone
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 07:18:32 pm »
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The on-play effect seems incredibly weak.  If it happens to be the $1 that bumps you up from $7 to $8, and you have a spare action, then you would probably play it.  But for the most part, it's a dead card once it's in your deck.

I think the on-gain effect is something that has been done on other fan cards, and I think it runs into some problems, although limiting it to only buying one Crone per turn might circumvent most of them.  Limiting to only one buy per turn might also prevent some problems that tend to arise with a $0 kingdom card.

The on-trash clause is weird and you would have to be a lot more explicit about it.  Where does it go if I can't trash it?  Does it go back into my hand like Fortress?  Or am I just not allowed to trash it at all if I can't?  And if it's the latter, then what happens if I play a card that forces me to trash, and Crone is the only card in my hand?  It also has the Throne Room/Moneylender wording problem of being forced to do something, but not requiring that you reveal your hand to prove that you can't do it, although that's a lot more minor.

There's a reason no cards have an on-gain (or on-trash) effect that give +buy or +coin (or +actions).  That reason is that you can gain cards not on your turn, and then it gets weird.  If my opponent Swindles my Copper into a Crone, then hey I gained a Crone so I get +1 buy, +$1.  But it's not my turn, so what happens to that bonus?  Is it saved until next turn, or does it just go away?

To fix this, you probably just want to make it an on-buy effect, rather than on-gain.  I came up with a card once that had an on-trash effect that was something like "When you trash this, set it aside.  At the start of your next turn, +$3 and move it to the trash pile".  I think you might be able to get a similar wording to work for +coin on-gain, but I don't think that would have the same effect as what you intended.

To criticize the card itself (and not just the wording issues), I think it's a very very weak card.  Most of the time, it will not be worth getting a dead card just to get $1 more to spend on this turn, especially because you (usually) have to pay $1 to trash it.  But then it really changes things when you hit that $7 hand near the end when you know you're not going to be re-shuffling anyway.

So everything I've said so far sounds very negative; I hope it didn't come off as harsh.  I do think that you did a good job realizing some of the potential problems with it and addressed them appropriately (limiting to one buy of Crone per turn, making it hard to trash), but overall I just don't think it would work as it is.  If you really like the card, then you should keep working on it and try to fix some of the problems I mentioned.  It's not necessarily a concept that can't work, but I think if this concept is going to be successful, the end result will end up looking quite different from the card you have here.

Edit: I wrote this assuming that the -1 VP was like a -VP token that you got each time you played it.  As noted by Warfreak2, if you mean to make it like a Curse, you should have a line separating the -1 VP.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 07:21:36 pm by scott_pilgrim »
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Asper

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Re: Crone
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 07:26:56 pm »
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I think the on-gain effect is something that has been done on other fan cards[...].

Here's one by Davio - i like it a lot for its simplicity:

Credit - Treasure - $1
$1
--------------------
While this is in play, you may not buy a Treasure.
--------------------
When you buy this, + 1 $, + 1 buy, and play this immediately.
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El_Heffe

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Re: Crone
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2013, 04:41:22 pm »
+1

If the intent of the -1VP is that its like a curse at the end of the game and if the intent of the "you cant trash this unless..." wording is to make it like an untrashable curse, then one possible alternative is to give it on gain wording that gives +1VP token to each opponent.

This gives the same net effect and isnt reversed if/when you trash the Crone ... so go ahead and trash the thing if you like ... the damage is already done.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Crone
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 04:49:17 pm »
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If the intent of the -1VP is that its like a curse at the end of the game and if the intent of the "you cant trash this unless..." wording is to make it like an untrashable curse, then one possible alternative is to give it on gain wording that gives +1VP token to each opponent.

This gives the same net effect and isnt reversed if/when you trash the Crone ... so go ahead and trash the thing if you like ... the damage is already done.

No, having the junk card in your deck is usually more damaging than just creating a 1VP difference.  If it was a choice between handing out a Ruins card or giving others 1VP, I'd usually choose Ruins.  (Depends on the board, of course.)
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jbrecken

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Re: Crone
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2013, 07:27:37 pm »
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If it's worth victory points its type should probably be Action / Victory, if only so it's easier to sort out at the end of the game when counting up your points.  Or possibly make it Action / Curse if you'd rather see a half-purple than a half-green.
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ta56636

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Re: Crone
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 03:05:59 am »
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Thanks for your feedback everyone!  Maybe something (hopefully) simpler:


Crone, -$1, Action

+1 Buy

---------

When you buy this +1 Buy

---------

You may not buy more than one crone per turn


P.S. I agree - Credit is a well thought out card...
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ta56636

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Re: Crone
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 07:08:54 am »
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I might also change the name to investor - crone doesn't really seem to fit any longer...
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eHalcyon

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Re: Crone
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 09:42:56 am »
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Thanks for your feedback everyone!  Maybe something (hopefully) simpler:


Crone, -$1, Action

+1 Buy

---------

When you buy this +1 Buy

---------

You may not buy more than one crone per turn


P.S. I agree - Credit is a well thought out card...

OK, so what does this do now?  You use a Buy to buy it, then you get +1 Buy back... are you supposed to get $1 due to the negative cost?  Negative costs explicitly do not exist in official Dominion (see Poor House, Bridge and other cost reducers which always specify a minimum of $0) so there are no rules to govern what a negative cost means.  If I buy it, do I get that much money back?  If I trash it with Apprentice, do I have to discard a card?  You'll have to answer these questions.  But the weird interactions due to negative cost probably add more complexity than can be justified for one card, where the effect can already be worded in a simple way a la Davio's Credit. 
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ta56636

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Re: Crone
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 05:09:38 am »
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You've got it about right.  I hadn't thought about apprentice (as I don't have alchemy), but the more I think about it the more I think Credit does the general idea better!
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