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Author Topic: Possession...  (Read 2932 times)

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tolenmar

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Possession...
« on: June 19, 2013, 12:51:21 pm »
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I hate this card with a passion rivalling the fury of the sun.  just thought you would like to know.

I never get it first in a game, no matter how I play.  When I do finally get it, I get crap out of their hands, they get province when they play it on me.

Don't get me wrong, It sounds like a fun card, and I know it is popular.  But for me.... I just want to rage quit when I see it.

Ok, rant over.  You can go about your business.
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Robz888

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 01:11:53 pm »
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Lots of people feel that way. And I can understand, there is something infuriating about the card. No one likes watching his opponent play his cards.

Its a high skill card, though, so I tend to enjoy it's presence.
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Awaclus

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 02:03:46 pm »
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Maybe you should start ignoring it more often, it's not usually a key card.
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Davio

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 02:05:39 pm »
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Maybe there would be less hate if it worked like Outpost, but with a full hand.
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eliegel34

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 02:28:15 pm »
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There is something fun about buying possession and then destroying your deck so your opponent can't do anything when he possesses you. This is fun if you get to use a good deck to buy tons of VPs.  However in the mirror, its terrible, and you both end up with the worst deck you can make, and just struggle to 3 pile with the game being decided by 1 lucky hand. 
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tolenmar

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 02:42:20 pm »
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The very first time I played with it, it was fun. Otherwise, it has not been.  In the game in question, though my opponent managed 6 out of 8 provinces, but I piledrived the Feodum and stacked myself to the gills with silver.  Beat him by something like 8 points. 

However, the point is is that it is no fun to watch your oppponent repeatedly play the game for you.  Even if it isnt a key card most of the time, I still have to deal with it when it shows up. It's so irritating.

Note, I am not complaining that possession made me lose, just that I can't stand watching other people play my hand. Especially since they benefit from it when I don't. So yeah, I'm pouting about it.  It's on my veto list, now.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 03:26:48 pm »
+1

Boards where multi-Possession is possible lead to an incredibly stupid sequence of optimal play:

1. Build an economy as fast as possible to pick up a few Possessions.
2. Immediately destroy that economy so your opponent can't use it, but without nuking your ability to play the Possessions.

You basically end up trapped in the riddle where two brothers are competing to see who has the slowest horse.

e: Except both brothers have the opportunity to kneecap their own horse before the race, so both riders end up just sitting at the starting gate.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 12:57:11 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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RTT

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 06:13:09 pm »
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BTW who decides which card to discard if you are possessing someone and play advisor or envoy
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Watno

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 06:15:33 pm »
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The player to the left (or is it right?) of the player you're possessing.
It's not you playing Envoy or Advisor, it's the guy you're possessing.
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RTT

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2013, 06:16:24 pm »
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So Advisor is another Card you should not buy und Possesion boards with 2 players right?
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AJD

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 06:27:00 pm »
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So Advisor is another Card you should not buy und Possesion boards with 2 players right?

Pretty much.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 06:44:02 pm »
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You basically end up trapped in the riddle where two brothers are competing to see who has the slowest horse.

This does happen sometimes, but there are an awful lot of cards which can either make your deck better or worse when your opponent uses it, compared to when you use it. For example, Golem and Herald are dead cards in the hand of the possessor because they don't want to risk playing your Possession; most Attack cards can't be played without hurting themselves, and VP-giving cards can't be played without helping you. Duration cards present a dilemma, because the possessor will improve both their possessed turn and yours; Tactician is an exception because your opponent won't play it for your benefit, but you also risk being possessed after playing it yourself. (Other cards like Apprentice, Salvager, Envoy/Advisor, and famously Ambassador and Masquerade, turn your deck into something your opponent can get a lot more out of than you can.) It's certainly possible to build a deck that you can get Provinces with but your opponent won't.
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

sudgy

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 10:03:23 pm »
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There is something fun about buying possession and then destroying your deck so your opponent can't do anything when he possesses you. This is fun if you get to use a good deck to buy tons of VPs.  However in the mirror, its terrible, and you both end up with the worst deck you can make, and just struggle to 3 pile with the game being decided by 1 lucky hand.

Probably the best example of this is a game where I built a deck of several Possessions, King's Courts, victory cards, and Bishops.  It worked pretty well.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

jomini

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 09:46:03 am »
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My main beefs with Possession are:
1. It is anisotropic. Like Smugglers, but on steroids, Possession varies wildly in its effectiveness. Possessing a strong engine (buying two provinces) or someone who has scaling TfB (Forge a Province) are vastly better than possessing a slog deck. This means that in 3er or 4er you can be completely shut out of any chance to win if one person makes a Possession bait deck (e.g. Nv/Bridge) that you can't touch. Worst case scenario is where you can only possess a slog deck while the guy across from you can possess a megaturn deck. I love that Dominion, generally doesn't care about who is next to you at the table ... Possession really changes that for the worse.
2. Possession is pretty swingy. 6P is normally far harder to get than 8 or 9 (and normally 11 once you get a plat or two), there are far fewer degenerate hands for 6P so you can't substitute 2 coppers for a potion like you might with silver. Likewise, if you aren't drawing deck every turn, then you have the luck of drawing 6P or 8 hands when you still want Possession and the flip late game when you really only want provinces. It is not uncommon for one player to buy the first 3 Possessions.
3. Possession leads to the most heavy analysis paralysis in the game. When you control both hands something that used to be an auto-play (like Ghost ship) now becomes a question of do I hurt my next real hand or help my current Possessed hand. Likewise, Possession makes for really long games when you get to playing it many times.
4. Possession is fiddly. Just about every game mechanic has something that reasonable people will misconstrue for Possession. Coin tokens - hey those aren't part of my hand you can't spend them. Bishop - hey I played the card I get the VP chips. Durations - hey I don't start with just 3 cards for my turn and I can still use Outpost for a second turn. I trashed your Fortress that means it goes into my hand. None of these are correct and you arguably might be able to puzzle them all out just from the plain text reading, but way too many people have trouble with getting it all correct.
5. Possession has some absolutely killer interactions with certain cards - Masq and Ambassador are insanely powerful and there is little you can do to stop them (e.g. I Masq over a Masq, Possess you, have you Masq a Province for a Masq and the have you Masq over your Possession). Another troublesome shot is using the set aside clause to give you opponent nothing but dead cards - draw their deck with yours (Gov, Council room) or by trashing their Cultists and then trashing all their cards using say Forge leaves them with nothing for next turn.

In general, Possession has all of the bad things of each of several cards all rolled into one. The anistropy of Smugglers, the swinginess of Tournament, the analysis paralysis of Torturer, the fiddliness Black Market, and the abuse potential Masq ... all in one card.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 12:57:36 pm »
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It's actually possible to get to the degenerate gamestate Donald has tried to explicitly avoid (where neither player moves the game toward completion). If both players successfully set up multi-Possession, Chapel is available, the score is within a few points, and the players don't run out any piles, you can reach a situation where neither player ever wants to put more than $1 in the deck, so the leading player runs out Copper and Curses 1 at a time (trashing the new one the following turn) to avoid allowing the opponent to multibuy Estates. With all the Copper gone and no money in either deck, the game becomes impossible to end.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 01:32:23 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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gman314

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Re: Possession...
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 01:03:37 pm »
+1

My favourite thing I've done in a possession game is on a board with Colonies, Vault and Possession, I was going Vault-BM and then when my opponent picked up a Potion (with Possession as the only potion-cost card) I just started piledriving Provinces. I bought my first Province with $11 and my opponent was surprised, but it worked really well to slow his possession turns since he didn't want to buy Provinces and my deck couldn't buy colonies.
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