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[eHalcyon]

Do you guys actually mean "discard this" in general, or "discard this from your hand"?  I don't think there is a general case rule like there is for "gain [from the supply]", so as written I could play it and then discard it from play for the extra bonus.

I believe there is a general-case rule actually?

I don't think so.  Consider Market Square, which specifically states "discard this from your hand".  A potential counter is Beggar which does not specify, but it only reacts to opponent's attacks so it can't ever be discarded from play.

[Asper]

I'm not in love with the card, but it needs +$2 to even approach viability, I'm guessing.

Seems not enough better than Smithy; you're still not at all happy about drawing it dead.

Well, it wasn't that much about doing an awesome card, but about the mechanism in general. I wouldn't have opened a new thread for Jeweler, that's for sure (By the way i guess you are both right about the +2$). Maybe putting the mechanic on Beer Wagon is more to your liking:

Beer Wagon - $4
Action - Reaction
+1 Card, +2 Actions
When you play a Treasure, you may discard this. If you do: +$2

The "When you play a Treasure" clause could be considered a little nerf. After all, it's a card that can become one of two 3$s, for 4$.

Aaaaaand now it's almost strictly better than Silver for $4. The "when you play a Treasure" clause just isn't much of a penalty.

It was strictly better than Silver to begin with. My original intent still was to talk about the mechanic, though i admit speaking about nerfs is actually part of a balance discussion. Truth be told, i didn't really think much about balance and just wrote what crossed my mind in that respect. I consider a Silver/Village underpriced for 4$, myself.

Do you guys actually mean "discard this" in general, or "discard this from your hand"?  I don't think there is a general case rule like there is for "gain [from the supply]", so as written I could play it and then discard it from play for the extra bonus.

I meant "from your hand". Good catch.

[scott_pilgrim]

Do you guys actually mean "discard this" in general, or "discard this from your hand"?  I don't think there is a general case rule like there is for "gain [from the supply]", so as written I could play it and then discard it from play for the extra bonus.

I believe there is a general-case rule actually?

I don't think so.  Consider Market Square, which specifically states "discard this from your hand".  A potential counter is Beggar which does not specify, but it only reacts to opponent's attacks so it can't ever be discarded from play.

There is a general-case rule.  Look at the text of Cellar, Secret Chamber, Baron, Torturer, etc.  If not specified, "discard" means from hand.  I'm not sure why MS specifies it.

[eHalcyon]

Yeah, but those are discarding other cards. This discards itself, and it's a reaction.

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah, but those are discarding other cards. This discards itself, and it's a reaction.

I'm not sure why that would make a difference.  It looks like Beggar and Market Square are the only official cards that can discard themselves from your hand, so we don't have many examples.  I guess it could be ambiguous.

[Awaclus]

Yeah, but those are discarding other cards. This discards itself, and it's a reaction.

I'm not sure why that would make a difference.  It looks like Beggar and Market Square are the only official cards that can discard themselves from your hand, so we don't have many examples.  I guess it could be ambiguous.

And there's Tunnel which doesn't say "from anywhere".

[AJD]

And there's Tunnel which doesn't say "from anywhere".

That's "when you discard this", not "discard this". Border Village doesn't say "from anywhere" either because when you gain this doesn't default to meaning the supply.

[jbrecken]

Maybe it would be easier to do it the other way:

Beer Wagon - $4
Treasure- Reaction
Worth $2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the beginning of your turn, you may reveal and discard this card.
If you do: +1 Card, +2 Actions

It loses the ability to choose to use it for actions after seeing what you get from other actions, but if you're trying to use it as a village you'd likely want to start with it.

[soulnet]

Maybe it would be easier to do it the other way:

Beer Wagon - $4
Treasure- Reaction
Worth $2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the beginning of your turn, you may reveal and discard this card.
If you do: +1 Card, +2 Actions

It loses the ability to choose to use it for actions after seeing what you get from other actions, but if you're trying to use it as a village you'd likely want to start with it.

If you can discard it at any time, it should definitely cost $5 because its too good. As it is, maybe fine.
It will also cause some confusion with "at the beginning of your turn" duration card effects (because in general you would choose the order of "beginning of turn" effects, but this is not an effect until you actually do it, so, after drawing for previous turn Wharf, is it still the beginning of turn?).

Discarding it may create infinite loops (for instance, if you have a 5-card deck, you can discard it and redraw it as much as you want, and then play a Diadem for infinite money). You should set it aside until the end of the turn or something like that.

[eHalcyon]

Yeah, but those are discarding other cards. This discards itself, and it's a reaction.

I'm not sure why that would make a difference.  It looks like Beggar and Market Square are the only official cards that can discard themselves from your hand, so we don't have many examples.  I guess it could be ambiguous.

Treasury, Hermit, Alchemist and Herbalist have text about when you discard them from play.  Generally speaking, the cards that care about discarding themselves (the above and Market Square) specify from where.  Beggar is the exception here, but it's unambiguous about where it would be from.

The cards that tell you to discard other cards (e.g. Cellar) always mean "from hand" unless otherwise specified, because it would be silly otherwise.  But it's not so silly for cards to care about themselves being discarded from play OR from hand (or even from the deck).

[sudgy]

Yeah, but those are discarding other cards. This discards itself, and it's a reaction.

I'm not sure why that would make a difference.  It looks like Beggar and Market Square are the only official cards that can discard themselves from your hand, so we don't have many examples.  I guess it could be ambiguous.

Treasury, Hermit, Alchemist and Herbalist have text about when you discard them from play.  Generally speaking, the cards that care about discarding themselves (the above and Market Square) specify from where.  Beggar is the exception here, but it's unambiguous about where it would be from.

Well, if you knew your top card was Beggar, you could try to discard it from the top of your deck...

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah, but those are discarding other cards. This discards itself, and it's a reaction.

I'm not sure why that would make a difference.  It looks like Beggar and Market Square are the only official cards that can discard themselves from your hand, so we don't have many examples.  I guess it could be ambiguous.

Treasury, Hermit, Alchemist and Herbalist have text about when you discard them from play.  Generally speaking, the cards that care about discarding themselves (the above and Market Square) specify from where.  Beggar is the exception here, but it's unambiguous about where it would be from.

The cards that tell you to discard other cards (e.g. Cellar) always mean "from hand" unless otherwise specified, because it would be silly otherwise.  But it's not so silly for cards to care about themselves being discarded from play OR from hand (or even from the deck).

But Treasury, Hermit, Alchemist, and Herbalist are not examples of what we are talking about.  The question is whether it is necessary to specify "discard from hand" when you're discarding from hand.  Of course Treasury, Hermit, Alchemist, and Herbalist have to specify, because they're not from hand.  The general rule that we were wondering if it exists is that discard always means from hand.  Regardless of whether that rule exists or not, Treasury, Hermit, Alchemist, and Herbalist would still specify from play.  Market Square and Beggar are the only examples we have (I'm pretty sure), so we have one that does specify and one that doesn't.

[eHalcyon]

Market Square and Beggar are the only examples we have (I'm pretty sure), so we have one that does specify and one that doesn't.

Well alright.  In this case, Beggar is unambiguous while Market Square is not, so MS specifies.  The fan card being discussed is ambiguous, so it should specify.

[Fragasnap]

If a card says "discard," regardless of whether it is "discard this" or "discard X cards," it is automatically assumed to be "discard (x cards\this) from your hand" unless it says otherwise. If that was not the case, I would argue that I can discard Beggar from the Supply in order to gain Silvers when another player plays an Attack.
As such, Market Square's wording is redundant-- probably a hold-over from when it trashed itself to gain Golds.

Market Square: ... Originally the reaction was, you could trash this to gain a Gold when one of your cards was trashed. Time has shown that gaining a Gold is not as awesome as it looks (btw spoilers), and I eventually got around to testing the stronger version that made it into the set.

Source

[eHalcyon]

Why is that automatically assumed? Is it actually in a rule book? Has Donald X actually stated that?

[Fragasnap]

Why is that automatically assumed? Is it actually in a rule book? Has Donald X actually stated that?

Emphasis added

"Discard" – unless otherwise specified, discarded cards are from the player’s hand. When a player discards a card, he places the discarded card face-up onto his Discard pile. When discarding several cards at once, the player need not show all cards he is discarding to his opponents, but player may need to show how many cards he is discarding (for example, when playing the Cellar). The top card of a player’s Discard pile is always visible.

[eHalcyon]

Ok then, I stand corrected.