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Author Topic: The value of a pure cantrip  (Read 6545 times)

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Eran of Arcadia

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The value of a pure cantrip
« on: June 16, 2013, 04:00:17 pm »
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I have been wondering, what would be the value of a card that is no more than +1 card, +1 action?

I don't mean, what would it cost. At $2 it is strictly worse than Pearl Diver and Pawn, and worse than Vagrant in all but a few edge cases (involving Taxman and the like). And I don't mean, when do you play it. Obviously, if it's in your hand, you need to play it.

But when would it be better to draw it, then play it to draw the next card, than it would be to not have it and simply draw the next card directly? I can think of 3 cases:

1. To help activate Conspirator.
2. To make Peddler cheaper.
3. With Throne Room/King's Court/Procession.

Are there any other combos that would benefit?
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dondon151

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2013, 04:10:56 pm »
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If you reveal it with Herald or Golem, you net an extra Action.
If it occupies a slot in your hand, it can help Menagerie.
You can trash it to Death Cart instead of a better Action.
If you use Possession on an opponent and want to trigger a terrible reshuffle if his bad cards are in the discard pile.

(Also, if it's in your hand, you don't need to play it.)
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2013, 04:12:29 pm »
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Your opponent is Pillaging you and doesn't know if or not you will draw a good card.

EDIT: Didn't read properly. This isn't a reason why you'd want to play it, but it's a reason why you want it in your hand.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 04:14:01 pm by Awaclus »
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2013, 04:19:26 pm »
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(Also, if it's in your hand, you don't need to play it.)

I figured that was almost certainly true, but couldn't think of any cases you wouldn't want to at some point on your turn.
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2013, 04:29:31 pm »
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Reshuffle control is the most universal one.

He're the thing that I wonder. Let's say that there was a kingdom card that was this. It costs very little - $0, perhaps, or $1. All it has is, +1 card, +1 action, and an on buy effect, which is when you buy it, you may gain up to 4 additional copies of it. Let's also say the kingdom pile is exceptionally large, 50 cards say. How often is it a good thing for your deck to pick these up with spare money, and how often is it a bad thing?

I suspect it's bad a lot more often than it's good - it clashes with terminal draw, with opponent's discard effects, all the other things we've noted in this thread and in the past. It's good sides - draw control, activation of things like Peddler, Conspirator, Throne Room, I think are more situational.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

brokoli

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 04:30:00 pm »
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(Also, if it's in your hand, you don't need to play it.)

I figured that was almost certainly true, but couldn't think of any cases you wouldn't want to at some point on your turn.
Trash for benefit !
Also, if you don't want to trigger a reshuffle.
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Powerman

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2013, 04:31:02 pm »
+1

AMAZING with Scrying Pool.
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2013, 04:39:43 pm »
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All cards have an asset value based on their cost that can be with various trashing cards, such as remodel. A cheap card to gain could also be useful when using a haggler or develop, for instance.
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dondon151

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2013, 04:47:15 pm »
+4

He're the thing that I wonder. Let's say that there was a kingdom card that was this. It costs very little - $0, perhaps, or $1. All it has is, +1 card, +1 action, and an on buy effect, which is when you buy it, you may gain up to 4 additional copies of it. Let's also say the kingdom pile is exceptionally large, 50 cards say. How often is it a good thing for your deck to pick these up with spare money, and how often is it a bad thing?

Hoooly crap Vineyards.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2013, 05:16:04 pm »
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and to a lesser extent, Gardens.
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2013, 05:21:18 pm »
+2

He're the thing that I wonder. Let's say that there was a kingdom card that was this. It costs very little - $0, perhaps, or $1. All it has is, +1 card, +1 action, and an on buy effect, which is when you buy it, you may gain up to 4 additional copies of it. Let's also say the kingdom pile is exceptionally large, 50 cards say. How often is it a good thing for your deck to pick these up with spare money, and how often is it a bad thing?

Hoooly crap Vineyards.

Knew there would be one big thing I missed. Eh. Add a condition that says at the end of the game, but before scoring, you trash it. Or just ignore the Vineyard/Gardens interaction.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

SirPeebles

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2013, 05:23:53 pm »
+2

+1 for having 666 respect
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2013, 06:29:06 pm »
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+1 for having 667 respect
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2013, 06:32:06 pm »
+2

Man, and people say respect has meaning...
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Eran of Arcadia

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2013, 06:49:24 pm »
+6

For a little while, I had more respect than total posts.

Ah well, it was nice while it lasted.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2013, 06:52:46 pm »
+3

One day you'll have a 1337 number of posts, like me.
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markusin

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2013, 08:12:13 pm »
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Cantrips allow you to make better use of your deck inspection cards (spy, wandering minstrel, lookout etc.) When those kinds of cards are played before cantrip then instead of the cantrips just drawing the cards that they replaced when played, they can possibly draw other cards.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2013, 08:20:35 pm »
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Cantrips allow you to make better use of your deck inspection cards (spy, wandering minstrel, lookout etc.) When those kinds of cards are played before cantrip then instead of the cantrips just drawing the cards that they replaced when played, they can possibly draw other cards.

But they can also be worse when your Cartographer reveals four pure cantrips.

Edit:  In this case your Cartographer was nothing more than... a pure cantrip itself!  Dun dun dun!! (and may have triggered a reshuffle, yes)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 08:24:49 pm by SirPeebles »
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liopoil

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2013, 09:17:31 pm »
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a big one: to draw a card which you topdecked earlier that turn, through gainer+watchtower, scavenger, develop, treasure map, etc.
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2013, 09:43:55 pm »
+1

I think a pure cantrip would have to cost $1.  That said, having it as a kingdom card would be beyond silly.  So, I propose:

Inventor
Action - $4

+1 Action
+$1

Gain a Thingamajig from the Thingamajig pile.  You may play a Thingamajig from your hand.


Thingamajig
Action - $1*

+1 Card
+1 Action

(This is not in the Supply.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 02:17:25 am by werothegreat »
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 12:50:44 am »
+1

I think a pure cantrip would have to cost $1.
IMO it would be correctly costed at $0.
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 01:37:22 am »
+3

I think a pure cantrip would have to cost $1.
IMO it would be correctly costed at $0.

But then it's strictly better than both Ruined Village and Ruined Library.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 01:41:56 am »
+4

I think a pure cantrip would have to cost $1.
IMO it would be correctly costed at $0.

But then it's strictly better than both Ruined Village and Ruined Library.

I can't tell if this is a joke or not.   :o
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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2013, 01:52:18 am »
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I think a pure cantrip would have to cost $1.  That said, having it as a kingdom card would be beyond silly.  So, I propose:

Inventor
Action - $4

+1 Action
+$1

Gain a Thingamajig from the Thingamajig pile.  You may play a Thingamajig.


Thingamajig
Action - $1*

+1 Card
+1 Action

(This is not in the Supply.)

Do the Inventor play the Thingamajigs from your hand?  (THINGAMAJIG IS A WORD?!?)
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: The value of a pure cantrip
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2013, 02:17:14 am »
0

I think a pure cantrip would have to cost $1.  That said, having it as a kingdom card would be beyond silly.  So, I propose:

Inventor
Action - $4

+1 Action
+$1

Gain a Thingamajig from the Thingamajig pile.  You may play a Thingamajig.


Thingamajig
Action - $1*

+1 Card
+1 Action

(This is not in the Supply.)

Do the Inventor play the Thingamajigs from your hand?  (THINGAMAJIG IS A WORD?!?)

Yes, that should be "from your hand."  And yes, "thingamajig" is a word.
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