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Author Topic: Overpay cards and the best cards lists  (Read 76303 times)

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GendoIkari

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Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« on: June 14, 2013, 10:29:35 am »
+4

In my opinion, overpay cards need to be in their own list, just like potion-cost cards. I don't think it makes much sense to compare Stonemason to the other $2 cards, when it's obviously stronger than most $2s, because it has an effect that make you want to pay $5 or more for it. Or look at Masterpeice... It's a TERRIBLE $3 card... But it's an ok $6 or $7 card. In other words, you don't consider buying Masterpeice with $3, so you don't have the same decision to make as you do with the other $3s.

Was Peddler always in the $6 or more cost? Maybe it should be on the overpay card list as well.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 10:34:12 am »
+4

I disagree. You just take overpay into consideration when ranking them. I don't see how this is different than, say, taking into consideration that Highway is awful without +Buy, but amazing on other boards.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 11:00:50 am »
+4

Well, the question is, what's the purpose of ranking cards of the same cost? To the extent that the exercise is meaningful, it's because it helps you choose what to buy at a given price point, or at least gives you a starting point for that discussion. Saying "Stonemason is a better card than Cellar, but you will almost always buy Cellar over Stonemason at $2" seems just as meaningless as saying King's Court is better than Cellar: exactly the sort of apples-to-oranges comparison which these lists are designed to avoid.

Personally I say, put Stonemason on the $2 list and "Overpaid Stonemason" on the $7 list, and the same for the others. "$6 Stonemason" and "$5 Stonemason" aren't important enough to be worth clogging up those lists, but the $7 list is so short it's already sort of silly anyway; maybe it would be enriched by adding comparisons like "Is Forge better than Overpaid Doctor?" And on the other hand we definitely need a comparison of $2 Stonemason against other $2 cards: that is simply essential for discussing openings.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 11:10:07 am by WheresMyElephant »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 11:09:38 am »
+2

Well, the question is, what's the purpose of ranking cards of the same cost? To the extent that the exercise is meaningful, it's because it helps you choose what to buy at a given price point, or at least gives you a starting point for that discussion. Saying "Stonemason is a better card than Cellar, but you will almost always buy Cellar over Stonemason at $2" seems just as meaningless as saying King's Court is better than Cellar: exactly the sort of apples-to-oranges comparison which these lists are designed to avoid.

Exactly. The point of the lists it to help you consider what you should buy when you have $x to spend. But if Masterpeice ends up as a "strong" $3 card... that has a completely different meaning than saying Ambassador is a strong $3 card. Ambassador being a strong $3 card means that it's often the correct thing to buy when you have $3 to spend. Masterpiece would not be the correct thing to buy if you have $3 to spend, so it's an unfair comparison.

Quote
Personally I say, put Stonemason on the $2 list and "Overpaid Stonemason" on the $7 list, and the same for the others. "$6 Stonemason" and "$5 Stonemason" probably aren't important enough to be worth clogging up those lists, but the $7 list is so short it's already sort of silly anyway; maybe they can enrich that conversation.
Well I don't think you can quite do this, because you would really have to put each overpay card on every list; I don't think you can arbitrarily say that Stonemason for $7 belongs, but Stonemason for $5 doesn't.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 11:18:46 am »
0

Doctor and Herald will likely be purchased without overpay at times.  It would be rare for Stonemason, and extremely rare for Masterpiece.  Similarly, one is unlikely to use gainers for Stonemason or Masterpiece.
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 11:41:20 am »
+2

Well, the question is, what's the purpose of ranking cards of the same cost? To the extent that the exercise is meaningful, it's because it helps you choose what to buy at a given price point, or at least gives you a starting point for that discussion. Saying "Stonemason is a better card than Cellar, but you will almost always buy Cellar over Stonemason at $2" seems just as meaningless as saying King's Court is better than Cellar: exactly the sort of apples-to-oranges comparison which these lists are designed to avoid.

Exactly. The point of the lists it to help you consider what you should buy when you have $x to spend. But if Masterpeice ends up as a "strong" $3 card... that has a completely different meaning than saying Ambassador is a strong $3 card. Ambassador being a strong $3 card means that it's often the correct thing to buy when you have $3 to spend. Masterpiece would not be the correct thing to buy if you have $3 to spend, so it's an unfair comparison.

Quote
Personally I say, put Stonemason on the $2 list and "Overpaid Stonemason" on the $7 list, and the same for the others. "$6 Stonemason" and "$5 Stonemason" probably aren't important enough to be worth clogging up those lists, but the $7 list is so short it's already sort of silly anyway; maybe they can enrich that conversation.
Well I don't think you can quite do this, because you would really have to put each overpay card on every list; I don't think you can arbitrarily say that Stonemason for $7 belongs, but Stonemason for $5 doesn't.

I'd say it's silly to pretend like these lists have such great intellectual rigor that we can't make any sacrifices to pragmatism. If we were so devoted to rigor, we would just concede that these rankings are basically meaningless, and not make them. That doesn't mean we just give up and say anything goes, but if we're so wrapped up in this that we refuse to discuss whether Doctor is a better $3 opener than Lookout or a better late-game trasher than Forge, then we're failing to extract whatever value is to be had from card rankings.
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theory

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 11:47:30 am »
0

This is an interesting dilemma.  My gut instinct is that you cannot possibly compare Stonemason to the $2's.  It is not even close: obviously a $2 Stonemason is going to be gimped compared to a $2 Crossroads.  But the problem is that it doesn't make much sense to compare it to Doctor/Peddler either, since they share little in common.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2013, 11:59:10 am »
0

Pick some price points.  It's impractical to include them on every list, but 2-3 might be OK?

How terrible is a $2 Stonemason?
How good is it at $6 (gaining 4s, and for the sake of the list also consider gaining 3s and 2s)?
How good is it at $8 (gaining 6s or cheaper)?

When you evaluate the costlier option, you can also consider the cheaper options that were not included in the lists.

Price points will probably be chosen arbitrarily in some cases.  Not quite sure where to put Doctor.  $3 certainly.  Maybe $4, $5 and $6 since those are the potential openings?
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WheresMyElephant

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2013, 11:59:24 am »
0

This is an interesting dilemma.  My gut instinct is that you cannot possibly compare Stonemason to the $2's.  It is not even close: obviously a $2 Stonemason is going to be gimped compared to a $2 Crossroads.  But the problem is that it doesn't make much sense to compare it to Doctor/Peddler either, since they share little in common.

I suspect $2 Stonemason on a 5/2 is comparable to Secret Chamber, Moat, Duchess. It might be worse than all these but the question is nontrivial enough to be worth publishing an answer.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 12:01:02 pm by WheresMyElephant »
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jsh357

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2013, 12:04:49 pm »
0

edit: nm
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 01:55:39 pm by jsh357 »
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2013, 12:14:18 pm »
+3

How will the Qvist rankings work for these 'overpay bonus' cards.... you can rank this as a $4, but that would imply no overpay bonus, a big reason for buying this card. At $5, you can grab one card from your discard and put on top of your deck... and at $6, you can grab two cards and so forth. So I think there are meaningful comparisons to be made at each price point. How does paying 6 for this compare to gold, when you factor in the overpay bonus? Yes, I realize that the price is technically 4, but if you are paying 6 for it to get a specific bonus, then the price is essentially 6, same as gold, adventurer, etc.

We'll see. First I have to finally finish the old list.
Then after some playtesting we'll find out. But I guess it will be ranked as a $4 cost card because that's what it is. Other cards from Hinterlands also have on-buy or on-gain bonuses and they are ranked how important they are (see IGG). So if a card has an overpaying bonus that will be used very often, that makes it stronger, but it's still a $4 card that you can buy for its on-play effect.

I'm not sure. I think we're overvaluing the overbuying effect so far. We have to wait.
IGG's on-play effect isn't worth $5 either and you buy it only for the on-gain effect. Still it's a $5 card.
Even if you buy a Stonemason with $7 just to get two $5s you have it in your deck and can play it and can use it. It's also still a $2 card.
You just have to take into account how often you will overpay for it and how the presense of this card changes the landscape of the board.

Also, let's assume you put Stonemason into the $6+ list. I would have a hard time ranking it (and I guess I still would in 2-3 months when I'm familiar with the cards). I'm not sure how to solve this, but I'm not convinced not to put them into their respective lists (Stonemason to the $2 list and so on, so forth)

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2013, 12:15:45 pm »
+1

It's impractical to include them on every list

Is it? We're talking about four cards, which would appear on 5/4/4/3 lists respectively (with 6+ cards already lumped together).
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SirPeebles

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2013, 12:17:09 pm »
+3

It's impractical to include them on every list

Is it? We're talking about four cards, which would appear on 5/4/4/3 lists respectively (with 6+ cards already lumped together).

Stonemason would need to be in the Potion cost list too.
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Robz888

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2013, 12:18:16 pm »
+13

I really think they should just be put on whatever their regular price list is. So Stonemason at $2, Masterpiece at $3, etc.

Why? Look, we do this exact same thing for Peddler already. It's in the $6+ range. But if you are paying $6+ for Peddler, then really it should be worst card on that list. But it's not, it's in the top half of $6+ cards. Why? Because when we rank it, we make mental note of the different prices aspect of it. We can do the same for these cards.
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sudgy

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2013, 12:19:53 pm »
+16

Why don't we rank Stonemason by comparing it to Warehouse?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2013, 02:15:50 pm »
+4

Well, the question is, what's the purpose of ranking cards of the same cost? To the extent that the exercise is meaningful, it's because it helps you choose what to buy at a given price point, or at least gives you a starting point for that discussion. Saying "Stonemason is a better card than Cellar, but you will almost always buy Cellar over Stonemason at $2" seems just as meaningless as saying King's Court is better than Cellar: exactly the sort of apples-to-oranges comparison which these lists are designed to avoid.

Is this really the point of the lists? I mean, you don't really play by just picking the best card at your given price every turn. You make some strategy based on combinations of cards. I think the point of the lists is just to give us something to argue about (we love to argue) and allow us to hear other people's opinions of cards we have may have underrated ourselves so that we can learn to use them better. It almost doesn't really matter how we group the cards. We could probably have just as well grouped them alphabetically. What's better Chancellor or Counting House? I guess it's useful to have all the 5s together because generally the strategy-defining cards live at $5 (though this does exclude potion cards and some other big key cards like Menagerie), but how big is the difference between most 2s 3s and 4s anyway? From a functional standpoint it would be better to group sub-$5 cards by terminal and non-terminal, but we don't do that.

Now I'm not saying we shouldn't have this discussion. It's something else to argue about! But I don't think it matters all that much which list you throw these cards on. It's just 4 cards... I'm fine with them being on the lists with the base price or in "other" (the 6+ category). I would prefer not to have yet another list with only 4 cards in it.
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jonts26

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2013, 03:16:09 pm »
+2

It's just 4 cards... I'm fine with them being on the lists with the base price or in "other" (the 6+ category). I would prefer not to have yet another list with only 4 cards in it.

This is probably the most important point. A list containing only a few cards is just not very instructive for anything. I mean, we can create whatever subcategories we want. There are probably better ways to categorize than cost. Rank the cursers would probably be a very interesting list. Rank the discard attacks is probably a lot less interesting, but still maybe a little. But that is perhaps why we do separate by cost. There are a lot of cards which would just be leftovers that didn't fit too neatly into any category (or fit into more than 1 category). Cost is a very easy way to include everything only once and have enough other cards to compare with and still have interesting comparisons.

A ranking of overpay cards is extremely uninteresting. There's just not enough of them. So the question remains, where do they go? Well, it seems so unnatural to place them in a higher cost category because you COULD overpay for it. It's way too clunky to include them in multiple cost tiers. Really the most natural place for them is their base cost categories. And we can rationalize it easy enough by saying lots of cards have on gain effects. Overpaying isn't so different.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 03:17:13 pm by jonts26 »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2013, 03:24:12 pm »
+1

The best comparison is probably Border Village, which you can almost consider to be an X-Cost card with an on-buy effect that you can overpay 6-X to obtain a card worth X.  Okay, so, you're forced to make this overpayment, but functionally it's similar, 'cause that makes it feel like Stonemason. 

The cost of the overpay cards is not variable.  Doctor is a $3 card and nothing can change that.  Once you buy it (for $3) you may choose to spend coins to get an effect.  It should be in the $3 card list because, well, it's a $3 card.

Notably, the overpayment can not happen when a card is gained.  Even if in your head Stonemason is a $7 card because you'd always overpay $5 (or whatever, the example is arbitrary), it's a $2 card for all purposes.  And I'd say the cases where you gain cards instead of buy them is pretty significant.  And, the overpayment can only happen once.  Once it's in your deck that effect no longer matters, just like Nomad Camp, IGG, Border Village, etc.  I think trying to include the potential overpayment amount as part of the cost is neglecting all of these factors.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2013, 04:01:18 pm »
+3

I'm with WheresMyElephant on this.  The lists help evaluate cards at a given price point because you will often be choosing between cards of a given price point depending on how much money you have on your turn.  Certainly cards are better or worse depending on the board, and you will of course sometimes buy a cheaper card than you could have, but it's pretty rare (though not unheard of) to buy an Herbalist for $11.

An argument for putting overpay cards on higher cost lists is that you can end up paying MORE for them.  Border Village always costs $6, no matter what you gain with it.  And even if you end up having more than $6 available, you always get the same benefit out of BV.  Peddler never costs more than $8, so it still makes sense to compare it to the other $6+ cards.  If you have $6+, chances are you can pay for Peddler.  No matter what you pay for Peddler, the benefit will be the same.  I admit, Peddler is more of a stretch here because you usually end up paying $0 or $2 for it, but at least you can afford to buy Peddler when you are considering the other cards on the list.

The overpay cards are different because you will often be paying MORE than the listed cost and the benefit scales up as you pay more.  When you overpay $3 for Doctor, you have effectively purchased a $6 card with an on-buy bonus of trashing cards from the top of your deck.  Yes yes, edge cases with TfB, Haggler, what have you.  But Doctor-at-$6 is not meaningfully comparable with Woodcutter.  It compares with other $6s.  When I have $2 available, I am choosing between Squire and Stonemason, not Squire and Stonemason-that-also-gets-me-two-GMs.

Another issue is that if you don't separate the overpay effects in some manner, people are going to evaluate these cards in wildly different ways.  This very discussion is proof of it.  There is already some difficulty with the lists as they are -- some people value potential impact while others prefer consistency.  Should I rank a card higher because it is always a useful addition, or should the top spots be reserved for potential high impact game changers, even if they are terrible 90% of the time?  But whatever, that's fine.  With the overpay cards, OTOH, some people may put little emphasis on the overpay (man Stonemason is bad at $2) while others will focus on it entirely (heck yes double Possession with $8p, what an awesome $2 card).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, this is all very confusing and let's argue some more.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2013, 04:29:42 pm »
+5

In my opinion, overpay cards need to be in their own list, just like potion-cost cards. I don't think it makes much sense to compare Stonemason to the other $2 cards, when it's obviously stronger than most $2s, because it has an effect that make you want to pay $5 or more for it. Or look at Masterpeice... It's a TERRIBLE $3 card... But it's an ok $6 or $7 card. In other words, you don't consider buying Masterpeice with $3, so you don't have the same decision to make as you do with the other $3s.

Was Peddler always in the $6 or more cost? Maybe it should be on the overpay card list as well.

In the end of the day there is always a reason to the ultimate cost. So yeah, Masterpiece is bad if you pay $3, but it's an average - maybe below average - $3 card. Stonemason without the overbuy would be TERRIBLE, but as it is it's fine at $2.

No need to change anything in my oppinion.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 05:04:51 pm »
0

In my opinion, overpay cards need to be in their own list, just like potion-cost cards. I don't think it makes much sense to compare Stonemason to the other $2 cards, when it's obviously stronger than most $2s, because it has an effect that make you want to pay $5 or more for it. Or look at Masterpeice... It's a TERRIBLE $3 card... But it's an ok $6 or $7 card. In other words, you don't consider buying Masterpeice with $3, so you don't have the same decision to make as you do with the other $3s.

Was Peddler always in the $6 or more cost? Maybe it should be on the overpay card list as well.

In the end of the day there is always a reason to the ultimate cost. So yeah, Masterpiece is bad if you pay $3, but it's an average - maybe below average - $3 card. Stonemason without the overbuy would be TERRIBLE, but as it is it's fine at $2.

No need to change anything in my oppinion.

Totally agree with kn1tt3r here. Also, we want to evaluate the strength of a particular card.
Let's say Masterpiece is the worst $3 card, the third worst $4 card, the 43th best $5 card, and the 6th best $6+ card (just examples), what does it say about its strength? (Nearly) Nothing!

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 05:12:53 pm »
0

I really think they should just be put on whatever their regular price list is. So Stonemason at $2, Masterpiece at $3, etc.

Why? Look, we do this exact same thing for Peddler already. It's in the $6+ range. But if you are paying $6+ for Peddler, then really it should be worst card on that list. But it's not, it's in the top half of $6+ cards. Why? Because when we rank it, we make mental note of the different prices aspect of it. We can do the same for these cards.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2013, 06:08:55 pm »
+1


Totally agree with kn1tt3r here. Also, we want to evaluate the strength of a particular card.
Let's say Masterpiece is the worst $3 card, the third worst $4 card, the 43th best $5 card, and the 6th best $6+ card (just examples), what does it say about its strength? (Nearly) Nothing!

It says that a $3 copper is awful, a $4 Copper + Silver is still awful, a $5 Copper + 2 Silvers is okay, and a $6 Copper + Gajillion Silvers is amazing.  It's impossible to value Masterpiece's overall strength, as it (and other overpay cards to a lesser extent) is an entirely different card if you buy it at $3 or #6.
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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2013, 06:37:01 pm »
+2

I really think they should just be put on whatever their regular price list is. So Stonemason at $2, Masterpiece at $3, etc.

Why? Look, we do this exact same thing for Peddler already. It's in the $6+ range. But if you are paying $6+ for Peddler, then really it should be worst card on that list. But it's not, it's in the top half of $6+ cards. Why? Because when we rank it, we make mental note of the different prices aspect of it. We can do the same for these cards.

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Re: Overpay cards and the best cards lists
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2013, 06:41:16 pm »
0

I really think they should just be put on whatever their regular price list is. So Stonemason at $2, Masterpiece at $3, etc.

Why? Look, we do this exact same thing for Peddler already. It's in the $6+ range. But if you are paying $6+ for Peddler, then really it should be worst card on that list. But it's not, it's in the top half of $6+ cards. Why? Because when we rank it, we make mental note of the different prices aspect of it. We can do the same for these cards.

And the truth shall set you free!!!!!
Spot on my good chap! : ;)

So the guy with the Scout avatar agrees with Robz888. Something fishy going on there...
Mwahaha!!! 
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